Sniper Scope Tips

[jgdj18 0]

Hey, firstly I searched for other similar posts but didn't find anything relevant so i apologise if i'm covering old ground.

Hopefully this thread can be a collection of sniping tips

After playing ARMA for about a month now I went and saw the movie "shooter" and got a sniper fixation and decided I would sort out the troublesome sniper scopes for good. So I set up a shooting range with civilians (It did feel kinda wrong...) and took notes on the milipoint system and distances with the m24 and 107. I drew a great diagram, went to play multiplayer ARMA, started sniping from a much higher elevation and found out all my notes were useless because of the higher elevation.

Firstly a little rank which is that with the realistic/difficult bullet drop (which I love) and the dodgy scopes, sniping is more about judging where your first few shots land and adjusting from there. This is anything from realistic where the sniper should be able to pull off a kill with the first shot. Sniping in ARMA does not feel realistic because of the guesswork involved.

I'm no sniper expert, but from movies and such usually a spotter calls out distance and windage etc. In the movie "shooter" the spotter has the distances marked on a sketched map. The problem is, that even if I could get some patsy to follow me around as a spotter, he can't get distances and he can't accurately check a map in game. Resultantly the shooter can't find distances and has to rely on guess work, which is unrealistic.

OK, things I have learnt.

1) m24 drops more and so u have to aim higher than the 107. The other sniper rifles vary as well, but I have concentrated on these two.

2) The best method is to have a guess from experience, then look for the dust of a shot hitting the ground, and try to work out where on the scope it was when you originally took the shot.

3) running targets need time till contact to be taken into account, which is hard but this makes it interesting and realistic.

4) looking for where your bullet kicks up dust can be tricky because your target is usually just infront of where it hits the ground and so you need to go slightly lower than where it hits the ground.

5) bullet dust from contact with the ground seems to not appear when within about 1m of an object such as your target, so fine adjustment can be hard.

6) The notes I originally took involved measuring standing height by the milidots and then noting where the shot fell on the scope. this changes at different elevations and so is not practical for in game use.

I'm sure this will be modded eventually, but until now maybe we could compile some tips

[frederf 0]

I can range a standing target to the nearest 50m using the mildots and use the known holdover/holdunder for that range. Bingo easy as cake.

The M107 and the M24 do have different drops but you also have to remember that they are zeroed at different ranges too. 400m and 700m or something like that. The difference in drop between the two weapons is pretty small (Depends on the muzzle velocity). The big diff is that the M107 starts pointed up a lot more than the M24.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

All rounds technically fall at the same acceleration (remember physics class?), the only difference is their horizontal speed which determines their range (faster horizontal speed increases range-how far it goes before it hits the ground, but it is independent from vertical speed).

[bob1787 0]

i was going to write a nice little piece about mediocre physics when i was checking up on how gravity would effect downward velocity then i found this so theres no need

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman's_rule

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

The PSO-1 Scope is a masterpiece and so is the SVD sniper rifle.

[opteryx 1562]

Doesn't anyone have a problem with the fact that the photomask reticle on some rifles stay the same size when you apply zoom?

That means that the intervals between the reticle dots lose their value as soon as you zoom, same goes for other types of weapons that use optics with zoom, like tanks.

[frederf 0]

Haha, not only do the scales change but the ZERO changes as well. The M4SPR is one such example.

With the rifles you generally can only be at max zoom or min zoom, it won't stick in the middle so you only have two scales.

With the M1A1 gunner optic where it lets you stay.. yeah, just gotta know that in between min and max zoom your scale is useless.

[BLUEmako 0]

Sniping will never be accurate in ArmA until they bring in range adjustment.

OFP had great a great setup for the M24 and SVD. Why did they not implement the same thing in ArmA?

ArmA is a huge step backwards from OFP in terms of bullet and shell physics.

[max power 21]

Sniping will never be accurate in ArmA until they bring in range adjustment.

OFP had great a great setup for the M24 and SVD. Why did they not implement the same thing in ArmA?

ArmA is a huge step backwards from OFP in terms of bullet and shell physics.

What are you even talking about? There was no range adjustment for the svd rifle in OFP, but there was a scale that worked. There IS a range adjustment in ArmA with the SPR, which was mentioned before not a few posts up. I don't know if the svd scale works in ArmA, but even if it doesn't it has nothing to do with the ballistics model.

[churnedfortaste 0]

Do you remember the big thread I started a few weeks back?

Asking if people wanted adjustable sights on sniper rifles, and then people suggested that we should have adjustable sights on all weapons that would be adjustable in RL.

I read the changelog for 1.07 and it said

"1.07 - New Weapons - optics camera can have a different direction than muzzle direction now "

I am not sure if this is related to a 'zero' feature for weapons, or maybe it is a change to make it possible to be implemented in a mod.

I would really like to see zeroable sights in the base game though, Should have been like that on the first patch tbh.

[Animal-22 0]

Hey, firstly I searched for other similar posts but didn't find anything relevant so i apologise if i'm covering old ground.

Hopefully this thread can be a collection of sniping tips

After playing ARMA for about a month now I went and saw the movie "shooter" and got a sniper fixation and decided I would sort out the troublesome sniper scopes for good. So I set up a shooting range with civilians (It did feel kinda wrong...) and took notes on the milipoint system and distances with the m24 and 107. I drew a great diagram, went to play multiplayer ARMA, started sniping from a much higher elevation and found out all my notes were useless because of the higher elevation.

Firstly a little rank which is that with the realistic/difficult bullet drop (which I love) and the dodgy scopes, sniping is more about judging where your first few shots land and adjusting from there. This is anything from realistic where the sniper should be able to pull off a kill with the first shot. Sniping in ARMA does not feel realistic because of the guesswork involved.

I'm no sniper expert, but from movies and such usually a spotter calls out distance and windage etc. In the movie "shooter" the spotter has the distances marked on a sketched map. The problem is, that even if I could get some patsy to follow me around as a spotter, he can't get distances and he can't accurately check a map in game. Resultantly the shooter can't find distances and has to rely on guess work, which is unrealistic.

OK, things I have learnt.

1) m24 drops more and so u have to aim higher than the 107. The other sniper rifles vary as well, but I have concentrated on these two.

2) The best method is to have a guess from experience, then look for the dust of a shot hitting the ground, and try to work out where on the scope it was when you originally took the shot.

3) running targets need time till contact to be taken into account, which is hard but this makes it interesting and realistic.

4) looking for where your bullet kicks up dust can be tricky because your target is usually just infront of where it hits the ground and so you need to go slightly lower than where it hits the ground.

5) bullet dust from contact with the ground seems to not appear when within about 1m of an object such as your target, so fine adjustment can be hard.

6) The notes I originally took involved measuring standing height by the milidots and then noting where the shot fell on the scope. this changes at different elevations and so is not practical for in game use.

I'm sure this will be modded eventually, but until now maybe we could compile some tips

I would imagine there is so much guesswork because you don't know the finer details of how to use a ranging scope (like the mil-dot or SVD optic) to its full capability. I know several ArmA snipers who can get One Shot Kills reliably to 800m on a horizontal plane. Shots well beyond that range are prefectly possible, especially when the shooter is elevated above the target.

All the in-game distance shooters I know DID have to work out their shooting range cards with experience because the model isn't exactly real world. It's a reasonable facsimile, but simplified somewhat.

Once you know how to determine range reliably with a mil-dot scope and have a solid range card, OSKs are just a matter of a little practice. The M24 and SVD are very accurate, the SPR a fair bit less but still solid inside 600m. The point is, it is all very predictable and repeatable. Research how to use ranging scopes, learn a little about bullet physics and you'll be ahead of most players.

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]"1.07 - New Weapons - optics camera can have a different direction than muzzle direction now "

Looks like BIS is sneaking in the adjustable sights feature bit by bit now. Or maybe we'll just be able to have freelook when in ironsights mode which would be less good news.

[max power 21]

Do you remember the big thread I started a few weeks back?

Asking if people wanted adjustable sights on sniper rifles, and then people suggested that we should have adjustable sights on all weapons that would be adjustable in RL.

I read the changelog for 1.07 and it said

"1.07 - New Weapons - optics camera can have a different direction than muzzle direction now "

I am not sure if this is related to a 'zero' feature for weapons, or maybe it is a change to make it possible to be implemented in a mod.

I would really like to see zeroable sights in the base game though, Should have been like that on the first patch tbh.

I think this has something to do with artillery.

And probably the m203!

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Quote[/b] ]"1.07 - New Weapons - optics camera can have a different direction than muzzle direction now "

Looks like BIS is sneaking in the adjustable sights feature bit by bit now. Or maybe we'll just be able to have freelook when in ironsights mode   which would be less good news.

It means we can use 2 memory points in the p3d to determine both the position and direction of the camera in optics view, as opposed to a single memeory point now with direction being parallel to the gun muzzle.

[frederf 0]

Eww, that's all that is? So before now the optics and barrel had convergence at infinity? That seems rather lame. I guess it'll be nice to have custom convergence.

Will the points that define the optics direction be able to change at all during the mission?

[b1sh0p 0]

Or maybe we'll just be able to have freelook when in ironsights mode   which would be less good news.

Those of us with TrackIR already have freelook when in iron sights. It's very useful when using non scoped, iron sight rifles, cause the zoom when zoomed in on iron sights is much more powerful than the regular zoom, and you can lower your rifle out of the screen entirely and scan for targets.

TrackIR FTW.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Eww, that's all that is? So before now the optics and barrel had convergence at infinity? That seems rather lame. I guess it'll be nice to have custom convergence.

Will the points that define the optics direction be able to change at all during the mission?

Well, it's not really parallel, it converges at a certain range but I'm not sure how that's determined, but either way we had no control before over the direction of the camera, so if you had for example an indirect fire weapon (like a grenade launcher), you could have the muzzle elevated and keep the optics pointing straight forward. But no, you can't change it. The memory points can not move unless they're assigned to an animation, in which case I have no idea how, if at all, it effects the camera. My guess is it will have no effect. Either way, user animations don't work on infantry weapons anway, so it's not going to do what you're hoping for.

[max power 21]

Eww, that's all that is? So before now the optics and barrel had convergence at infinity? That seems rather lame. I guess it'll be nice to have custom convergence.

Will the points that define the optics direction be able to change at all during the mission?

Well, it's not really parallel, it converges at a certain range but I'm not sure how that's determined, but either way we had no control before over the direction of the camera, so if you had for example an indirect fire weapon (like a grenade launcher), you could have the muzzle elevated and keep the optics pointing straight forward. But no, you can't change it. The memory points can not move unless they're assigned to an animation, in which case I have no idea how, if at all, it effects the camera. My guess is it will have no effect. Either way, user animations don't work on infantry weapons anway, so it's not going to do what you're hoping for.

The barrel line and the sight line convergence is set indirectly by the distancezoommin/max parameters which govern zero ranges depending on what level of zoom you've set.

For example, at distancezoommin=500, the rifle is zeroed at 500 meters at minimum zoom. At distancezoommax=1200, the rifle is zeroed at 1200 meters at maximum zoom. Between those levels of zoom, I suppose you can expect that the zoom would change in a linear fashion between 500 and 1200.

[Maj_Death 0]

I think the modeling is pretty good on bullet ballistics in ArmA. The truth is there really is a lot of guess work in longer range shooting. I've done plenty of it and it's mostly feel more than anything else. Case and point is my CZ527 with a 4x-12x scope, sure, it has a range finder built in as part of the focus. Know how it goes? 10m-300m then infinity. Beyond 50m it is pretty useless as at that point anything other than perfect vision introduces inaccuracy in the labeling. To range I just guess based on how big the target is (or I think it is). The trick to shooting sniper rifles in game is the same as in real life, pick a zoom level and never leave it. Then learn how the gun shoots at different ranges with that zoom. On a related note, the SVD makes it a lot easier with it's ranging system but I still prefer the M24. I have no problem plucking guys off from 1-1.5km in game. Standing still that is though, taking shots at guys running around at that range is a waste of ammo.

[BLUEmako 0]

What are you even talking about?  There was no range adjustment for the svd rifle in OFP, but there was a scale that worked.  There IS a range adjustment in ArmA with the SPR, which was mentioned before not a few posts up.  I don't know if the svd scale works in ArmA, but even if it doesn't it has nothing to do with the ballistics model.

I was referring to the fact that those two rifles acted realistically. I know that the SVD in OFP had a fixed scale and you need to adjust your weapon elevation manually based on that scale. Zooming the scope on the M24 adjusted the elevation of the rifle in accordance to the zoom set. In both cases, the scope sights allow you to judge the distance to your target by comparing the scale to a human figure.

Doing so worked well, allowing accurate range estimation and sight adjustment, making sniping a skill that could be learned in OFP. In ArmA it is something that relies on guesswork, that is what I was referring to.

In ArmA, as previously noted, scope zoom does not affect the scale of the scope mil dots. Also, the rifles are zeroed to a range that varies from weapon to weapon and bears no relationship to the weapon sights. I personally haven't noticed a range setting change in the SPR based on zoom but that may be because of the scope mil dots not scaling (which make zero adjustment meaningless as you can't accurately estimate target range).

As for my comment on bullet/shell physics, I suppose it was a bad choice of words but there are plenty of posts to show that in general the weapon use and behaviour leaves a LOT to be desired, especially when compared to OFP.

Until they sort the scopes to behave in a manner that allows range estimation, shooting is all about learning the game, not learning to simulate real life.

[max power 21]

I was referring to the fact that those two rifles acted realistically. I know that the SVD in OFP had a fixed scale and you need to adjust your weapon elevation manually based on that scale. Zooming the scope on the M24 adjusted the elevation of the rifle in accordance to the zoom set. In both cases, the scope sights allow you to judge the distance to your target by comparing the scale to a human figure.

Doing so worked well, allowing accurate range estimation and sight adjustment, making sniping a skill that could be learned in OFP. In ArmA it is something that relies on guesswork, that is what I was referring to.

In ArmA, as previously noted, scope zoom does not affect the scale of the scope mil dots. Also, the rifles are zeroed to a range that varies from weapon to weapon and bears no relationship to the weapon sights. I personally haven't noticed a range setting change in the SPR based on zoom but that may be because of the scope mil dots not scaling (which make zero adjustment meaningless as you can't accurately estimate target range).

As for my comment on bullet/shell physics, I suppose it was a bad choice of words but there are plenty of posts to show that in general the weapon use and behaviour leaves a LOT to be desired, especially when compared to OFP.

Until they sort the scopes to behave in a manner that allows range estimation, shooting is all about learning the game, not learning to simulate real life.

The scale on the SVD worked but it did not work realistically. Those chevrons on the actual SVD are for calculating bullet drop for 1000m, 1100m, and 1200m for chevrons 2, 3, and 4 respectively. I think by m24, you mean m21. There was no M24 in OFP. The very special scope on the m21 in OFP was modelled alright, but that scope doesn't exist in ArmA.

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]I still prefer the M24. I have no problem plucking guys off from 1-1.5km in game.

How can you use the M24 at that range? At >1000m you need to holdover the scope so much the target isn't even in the view anymore!

So basically zooming in the weapon won't change the view direction and you can set a custom static view direction for a weapon. Whoopdeedo, now the M4SPR won't change zero's when you zoom it. That's about it. It doesn't even make proper M203 sights possible, unless the camera/barrel angle can change and therefore doesn't allow custom sights.

I'm really hoping the view definition points can be moved in game though. That would be everything we hoped for.

[fireship4 0]

"The scale on the SVD worked but it did not work realistically. Those chevrons on the actual SVD are for calculating bullet drop for 1000m, 1100m, and 1200m for chevrons 2, 3, and 4 respectively. I think by m24, you mean m21. There was no M24 in OFP. The very special scope on the m21 in OFP was modelled alright, but that scope doesn't exist in ArmA. "

Plaintiff I think you are wrong. On the real SVD the chevrons provide markings in 250 m increments from whatever range the rifle is zeroed in at, so if it is zeroed in at 500 m then the second chevron will be 750 m. There is a copy of the SVD field manual online somewhere if you look.

[armored_sheep 56]

Add SPR - zoom the scope so that standing soldiers feet stand on bottom fat line and cross aims to his head, than it is zeroed.

Add SVD - in Arma it works exactly as in OFP. Marks are by 200m

[max power 21]

"The scale on the SVD worked but it did not work realistically. Those chevrons on the actual SVD are for calculating bullet drop for 1000m, 1100m, and 1200m for chevrons 2, 3, and 4 respectively. I think by m24, you mean m21. There was no M24 in OFP. The very special scope on the m21 in OFP was modelled alright, but that scope doesn't exist in ArmA. "

Plaintiff I think you are wrong. On the real SVD the chevrons provide markings in 250 m increments from whatever range the rifle is zeroed in at, so if it is zeroed in at 500 m then the second chevron will be 750 m. There is a copy of the SVD field manual online somewhere if you look.

What, you mean like this one where I got that information in the first place?

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/pos1.pdf