Sniping

[rom_un 0]

.308 Win Ballistics

[Animal-22 0]

This topic of where various scopes are zeroed brings me to an interesting question. Do any of you modders know if it is possible to change where the scope is zeroed? Like being able to zero it @ 500m or 750m instead of 300m?

[amrax 0]

Quote[/b] ]Range (m) Elevation (mils)

300 1.5 *0.0 if zeroed @ 300m*

400 2.5 *1.0 if zeroed @ 300m*

500 3.7 *2.2 if zeroed @ 300m*

It doesn't correspond exactly with the game.

Those 2 dots or MILS (which ever you prefer) are only good for 650m plus minus when I tried it with the 10x scope though.

That is without the MOA calculation however.

Ahhh, you edited the post. Its a little bit more than that but pretty close.

Quote[/b] ]I can see the impact, but it is not enough precise to measure 1'' of difference between two shots. Is impacts persistent with your settings ?

As you made that map, make an extra measure tablet in it at each of those ranges I previously stated, than stand next to it with a binocular and look (take a screen shot if you will).

Like in gun stores, you know. Than check it in photoshop or something.

After you measured the exact MOA of a rifle you than change the scope so it matches... I know its not possible in ArmA yet but nonetheless.

Quote[/b] ]But as we all know, slight differences at 300m are BIG differences at 800m or more.

Yes, that is why long range snipers often modify their snipers at excellent gun smiths and get way better scopes to go alone with them.

I know the game doesn't offer that but, you get the point...

Longest confirmed shot in Vietnam was 2500 yards, so .

Quote[/b] ]This topic of where various scopes are zeroed brings me to an interesting question. Do any of you modders know if it is possible to change where the scope is zeroed? Like being able to zero it @ 500m or 750m instead of 300m?

Yes of course, they set it to 300m in the first place...

[Animal-22 0]

.308 Win Ballistics

You think you could find that in 100m increments (instead of 100 yds.)?

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Longest confirmed shot in Vietnam was 2500 yards, so .

2,250 metres, Gunny Carlos Hathcock, Jan 1967, with a .50

cal. machine gun fitted with an 8x Unertl telescope, not

a "sniper rifle"!

A Canadian sniper in the 'stan is said to have made a 2,430

metre shot (but that remains unconfirmed, as far as I'm

aware).

[rom_un 0]

The Canadian reccord

[amrax 0]

A .50 is not a sniper rifle anymore? Fine, large caliber rifle. To me still a sniper rilfe.

I was talking about the M107 of rom_un.

[Animal-22 0]

A .50 is not a sniper rifle anymore? Fine, large caliber rifle.  To me still a sniper rilfe.

I was talking about the M107 of rom_un.

You didn't read. It wasn't a .50 cal sniper rifle... it was a .50cal MACHINE GUN. It wasn't the Barret .50 cal sniper rifle we know today.

[amrax 0]

And the other guy, never made it? Alright, pretend he didn't.

You can take out targets with a .50 "sniper:" at those ranges nonetheless.

I misred Col. Faulkner.

[rom_un 0]

And the M24 Record

For me the Canadian record, the sniper shot a first time, adjust and then hit the target on the second shot. This method is acceptable but this is not a real record for me because of the dummy target..

"M107 of rom_un" sorry but i haven't got any...... yet

[amrax 0]

Of course he missed the first time (pretty well done him hitting the second), he dind't measure his scope and rifle for those ranges previously, we're only discussing 800m, a good sniper would manage to get a 1200m shot with the M24.

If you want to shoot and hit first round at those ranges simple measure it at the range, just like we're doing.

Sure he got lucky with the scope, but if you play around with them long enough... well, you learn well!

It is possible...

But what has this to do with the game? Our maximum is so far only 600.

M24 rifle and scope.

[Birgrim 0]

And the M24 Record

For me the Canadian record, the sniper shot a first time, adjust and then hit the target on the second shot. This method is acceptable but this is not a real record for me because of the dummy target..

"M107 of rom_un" sorry but i haven't got any...... yet

Actually he hit the guy's back he was carrying on the first shot. Might not have been a kill but it certainly was a hit.

Lets see, the M24 record depicts an insurgent sitting still in a window at 1200 meters, missing that shot would be a joke.

Canadian record was on an insurgent who was walking 2430 meters away. Try hitting a moving target with a bullet flight time of 4 seconds. At that range a simple gust of wind puts your shot way off target. Its canyons and mountains, after all. They say 60% skill 40% luck. 2 shots work for me.

Canadian snipers > all. End of the story.

[Doc_69 0]

On the mil dot scopes. One Mil is measured from center to center. So from the crosshair to the center of the dot below or above or left or right is 1 mil. Normally on quality scopes the dots are actually oval. Where the following would apply.

Dot Height on the vertical  = .25Mil

From edge of dot to edge of dot .75mil

As far as standards are concerned the USMC uses 1 mil=3.438moa. Army uses 1mil=3.6. Most casual shooters tend to use 3.5 since it falls between the 2.

I have been working on making a mod that will correct what I perceive to be inaccuracies in the ammunition and weapons config. However although I am confident I can get the zeroing correct I am stuck trying to make a usable KD range with appropriate targets where either the bullet leaves a visible hole/mark for adjustment or the target actually consists of a bunch of no larger than 1 or 2" pop up targets for preference that change color when hit. Then placing these targets on a KD range.  

I am not certain what effect angle has on ballistics in game will have to do some testing but without accurate height/range/target data it will be difficult.

Just my 2cents worth.

Doc_69.

[amrax 0]

Paintballs, nice idea Doc_69. I gave you the other idea though.

To correct the bullet impact problem, make sure it leaves + but enlarged with in red on a black measure tablet, simple!

One thing though, you don't need the side dot mils because the rifle is rather accurate in the middle Y line (where the X line is horizontal).

You probably won't need more than one on each side, maybe not at all. :P

Let's all take 9 mags and empty them taking notes tonight!

[Animal-22 0]

And the M24 Record

For me the Canadian record, the sniper shot a first time, adjust and then hit the target on the second shot. This method is acceptable but this is not a real record for me because of the dummy target..

"M107 of rom_un" sorry but i haven't got any...... yet

Actually he hit the guy's back he was carrying on the first shot. Might not have been a kill but it certainly was a hit.

Lets see, the M24 record depicts an insurgent sitting still in a window at 1200 meters, missing that shot would be a joke.

Canadian record was on an insurgent who was walking 2430 meters away. Try hitting a moving target with a bullet flight time of 4 seconds. At that range a simple gust of wind puts your shot way off target. Its canyons and mountains, after all. They say 60% skill 40% luck. 2 shots work for me.

Canadian snipers > all. End of the story.  

The range isn't the only variable here. The 2400m shot was made with a .50 cal round. The 1200m shot was made with a 7.62mm (.308) round. A 2400m shot with a .308 cal round would be impossible. Obviously, Canadian snipers are doing a lot of good work, but let's not get carried away. Missing a 1200m shot with a M24 most certainly WOULD NOT be a joke. That's just silly. Hitting at 1200m with a field rifle with a 7.62mm round is absolutely friggin' awesome.

[Animal-22 0]

One thing though, you don't need the side dot mils because the rifle is rather accurate in the middle Y line (where the X line is horizontal).

You probably won't need more than one on each side, maybe not at all. :P

That's only because I have yet to see any wind environment variable included yet. Does a wind variable even exist in ArmA? I think they concluded (and rightly so IMO) that elevation is difficult enough. Hopefully they got they bullet ballistics models pretty close on that. If they included windage variables, even the slightest breeze would make you easily miss a human target at 500m.

[Sergei_Q 0]

[eats his hat]

[frederf 0]

After playing with the shooter ready flash lesson and demo I realize how screwed over we are in ArmA without having adjustable sights for snipers, rifles, MGs, AT rockets, etc.

Not only would it make marksmanship beyond 400m an actual skill, but require some knowledge to be good at it. I set up a simple mission in the editor and shooting beyond about 900m is near impossible, not because of the rifle but that the fixed optics make aiming with that much hold over unreliable.

It might be a hard thing to code, but if I had to choose between M1A1 interiors and A-10s and a Mi-17 hind and adjustable sights, I'd pick adjustable sights every time. Modders can make the other stuff, sights have to come from BIS.

[Animal-22 0]

After playing with the shooter ready flash lesson and demo I realize how screwed over we are in ArmA without having adjustable sights for snipers, rifles, MGs, AT rockets, etc.

Not only would it make marksmanship beyond 400m an actual skill, but require some knowledge to be good at it. I set up a simple mission in the editor and shooting beyond about 900m is near impossible, not because of the rifle but that the fixed optics make aiming with that much hold over unreliable.

It might be a hard thing to code, but if I had to choose between M1A1 interiors and A-10s and a Mi-17 hind and adjustable sights, I'd pick adjustable sights every time. Modders can make the other stuff, sights have to come from BIS.

Absolutely... I totally agree. Anything above 5 mils is totally unreliable. I submitted a request in the mod and addon forum to have a small script made that would allow us to either statically or dynamically reset the zero on our rifles. I hope someone can get it done.

[amrax 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think they concluded (and rightly so IMO) that elevation is difficult enough. Hopefully they got they bullet ballistics models pretty close on that.

OMG I can't believe you just said that.... man

Why don't you go play BF2 or Delta Force, and NO it is not “too difficult†AT ALL!

NO ELEVATION MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT!!!

Quote[/b] ]If they included windage variables, even the slightest breeze would make you easily miss a human target at 500m.

THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE AN ELEVATION FOR IT! Dude you lost it...

Do you know anything about sniping and scoping or did you just play Delta Force 2?

Quote[/b] ]Absolutely... I totally agree. Anything above 5 mils is totally unreliable. I submitted a request in the mod and addon forum to have a small script made that would allow us to either statically or dynamically reset the zero on our rifles. I hope someone can get it done.

Hello,.. it is NOT, I pulled off many successful 600m+ hits.

Quote[/b] ]Not only would it make marksmanship beyond 400m an actual skill, but require some knowledge to be good at it. I set up a simple mission in the editor and shooting beyond about 900m is near impossible, not because of the rifle but that the fixed optics make aiming with that much hold over unreliable.

It might be a hard thing to code, but if I had to choose between M1A1 interiors and A-10s and a Mi-17 hind and adjustable sights, I'd pick adjustable sights every time. Modders can make the other stuff, sights have to come from BIS.

Even a shot at 100m would require skill.

Are you serious??? You're talking nonsense & crap,,,

And NO, it is a very very easy thing for them to do it right, they simply didn't care to do so!

I know player who take better shots in BF2.

It is BIS job to deliver a realistic game as promised, this if FAR FAR from it.

They failed miserably!

Why does everyone think it is so damned difficult for them to put in those 2 options... it is so so simple.

[churnedfortaste 0]

I guess if BIS changed the sniping system completely that would mean to them that the original release was a failure or something.

(which it is....)

[frederf 0]

Amrax's drunken rambling aside...

Obviously there is difficulty in getting adjustable sights otherwise we'd have had it 4 years ago. The alignment between the scope and the barrel must be hard coded for a weapon. I suppose if you REALLY wanted to be ham fisted about it you could have 10 different M24 SWSs (zero'd at 200m, 300m, etc) and swap them out via a script and addAction, but that's painfully awkward.

Shooting out beyond a 5 mil correction is difficult to do with first-shot-hit accuracy. My unofficial tests gives the following hold overs for the M24 SWS:

200m -0.8mil

300m -0.3mil

400m +0.8mil

500m +1.6mil

600m +2.6mil

700m +3.9mil

800m +4.9mil

Beyond 800m you really have to shoot and see, even though the actual rifle is capable of 1500m or more, shooting that far using the standard zero and hold over is not possible.

I was reading the field manual for snipers and found that the M3A1 scope is calibrated in 100's of meters and not MOA, although that's neither here nor there.

I can see why they didn't introduce wind.. there's no way to tell the direction and strength in the game unless someone told it to you (or you had a weather station thingie). I wouldn't mind if they did. I think someone should really have to do their homework to hit you in the forehead on the first shot on a windy day at 1100m. Maybe they had problems with the AI missing in the presence of wind?

[WimpBastard 0]

200m -0.8mil

300m -0.3mil

400m +0.8mil

500m +1.6mil

600m +2.6mil

700m +3.9mil

800m +4.9mil

Thanks for those figures, I'll give them a shot next time I'm fiddling with the editor.

I have some experience with scripting in OFP, but frankly I have no idea whether adjusting the zero is possible. It doesn't seem like it'd be the hardest thing ever, but from my experience OFP is remarkebly flexible in some things but pretty rigid in others.

If there were some way to change where the scope is aiming it might be possible to just move the crosshairs on the screen up or down depending on what the elevation is. However I have no idea if this is even possible. It would be really good to get some adjustable sights so we can improve our chances of hitting something on the first shot, without intuitively "knowing" where to aim because we use the weapon all the time.

The other thing I'd love to see in ArmA, (and slightly unrelated) is shell drop on tanks and artillery and setting ranges on their guns too. It was/is great fun in RO:O firing rounds at enemy armour, trying to work out the range and observing the fall of shot.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

I suppose if you REALLY wanted to be ham fisted about it you could have 10 different M24 SWSs (zero'd at 200m, 300m, etc) and swap them out via a script and addAction, but that's painfully awkward.

Yes, that approach works. I had that going already with some

OFP addon weapons I was working on. But like you say, it's

very inelegant, especially if you want to provide the full range

of settings.

[rom_un 0]

Quote[/b] ] it you could have 10 different M24 SWS

Inelegant but it's a solution. Thanks Frederf.

With 2 radio script, one to get the +200m leveled scope, and one to get the -200m leveled one. And a message to tell witch one do you have.

IRL, when you change elevation, you don't look in the scope, so the changing weapons animation is not a problem for me.

Remember, in Ofp, the M21 was changing the zero according to the zoom. Did the M4SPR change is elevation with the zoom ? I think yes, but i can't test it at work.