Sniping

[ThePredator 0]

Hahaha, that's hilarious, nice one.

Thanks, Wakner you made my day...

SureShot....priceless.

I wish ArmA had something like that...dream on...

[amrax 0]

I got the mil dot system working, but its NOT supposed to be that way.

There are simpler ways, more advanced ways if you will.

The whole point I'm making is that there are 3 adjustments to go around the mil dot systems, its not a guessing game - sniping, you know.

Yards and meters don't vary too much, 800m = 875 yards.

JdB, you can't be serious when you say its impossible dude Just a few coding lines extra.

rom_un, “(Where 1000 is only for a 10x scope, 500 for a 5x)†you can't magnify the scope so what 5x for 500m?

The whole point is that you can't change ANYTHING about the scope, that is what makes it rather useless.

“5 mils * 400 m / 1000 = 2m height for a man.†What...? No that is wrong. The game doesn't offer more than 4 dots for the M24.

Can we please stick to the just the game not online sims which don't correspond with the game?!

A soldier is NOT 1.50m, a cow is 1.5m.

The height of a hmmwv is fixed so stand next to it and measure another player

You'll probably end up 2m +-...

About that “SureShot†thing, you can't be serious...

One last important thing, you all talking massively about the mil dot of some online sim but don't forget whether the rifle itself is actually accurate to the dot, because rifles aren't, at least the ones we're discussing. May I remind you that the M24 is 1 MOA off!

[rom_un 0]

Quote[/b] ]rom_un, “(Where 1000 is only for a 10x scope, 500 for a 5x)†you can't magnify the scope so what 5x for 500m?

It's just an example to say "the mil-dot formula use the scope magnification". You can't use the same formula with different magnification. -> (Target size [m] * 100 * magnification ) / MIL reading = range

The goal is to find the m24 scope magnification. We know distance and mil reading but not the height off a man.

Quote[/b] ] The game doesn't offer more than 4 dots for the M24.

B=5 mil, A=10 mil

Quote[/b] ]its not a guessing game - sniping, you know.

Yards and meters don't vary too much, 800m = 875 yards.

You will have some surprises with M107 long range sniping. In real with the .308win the non-conversion at 400m give 13 cm of bullet drop (average). Enough to miss.

Quote[/b] ]One last important thing, you all talking massively about the mil dot of some online sim but don't forget whether the rifle itself is actually accurate to the dot, because rifles aren't, at least the ones we're discussing. May I remind you that the M24 is 1 MOA off!

I didn't understand (perhaps because i'm a frenchy). We talk here about distance estimate with scope, not precision of rifles. And Arma has a precision parameter (quite good for the m24 i think with my 7.62 experiment).

But as you said "you can't change ANYTHING about the scope", it's hard for me to shoot over 800m. (no problem at 1000m before patch 1.05)

[rom_un 0]

I've just make somes mesures ingame with Arma with a T72, a M1A2 and a HMMWV.

I find 11x for the M24 scope magnification (11,2).

Then i try to mesure a man with this data, and i've found 1.80 m

[churnedfortaste 0]

I think their should be proper sniping in this game, with windage and elevation knobs, not user created or anything like that, I mean official.

A realism game that is supposed to simulate shouldn't be half assed, and it would be more rewarding for the sniper kills with a new system.

Who's with me on this?

[Animal-22 0]

If you take the correct Mildot range forumla...

(Size * 100 * Magnification) / Mils = Range

and you solve for Size (since everyone is discussing the size of the soldiers in ArmA) you get...

((Range * Mils) / Magnification) / 100 = Size

and if you use Birgirms Size Table you get either 1.43m tall or 1.5m tall (4 instances of 1.5m [5'] and 3 of 1.43m [4' 8"]. That's if the magnifications is indeed 14x. If you use the 10x magnification parameter, the results are either 2m [6' 7"] or 2.1m [6' 11"].

Basically, we need someone to take mil measurements at a known range and we will be able to calculate size. I'll do it tonight when I get home if no one else has.

If we assume a fairly standard height of 1.8m [5' 11"] then a soldier should be 5 mils at 500m and 14x magnification. At 1.7m [5'7"] then a soldier should be 4.75 mils at 500m and 14x magnification.

[Animal-22 0]

I've just make somes mesures ingame with Arma with a T72, a M1A2 and a HMMWV.

I find 11x for the M24 scope magnification (11,2).

Then i try to mesure a man with this data, and i've found 1.80 m

Can we see all the data please? It's be nice to see what you got for the T72, M1A1 and HMMWV in terms of mils at range and use the data from one to predict the mils at range of another using the in-game size of one and the actual size of the predicted model. I'd bet we will find that they are close, but only within 5-10%. Either way, it'd be nice to see as much data as you've got on this. I'd do it myself, but I am at work right now.

[rom_un 0]

I didn't use Arma dimensions (it's only a quick job to have an idea), i will try in the future to use the config .ccp files to get real formula.

Procedure : i try to find at witch distance the object take 10mil in the scope.

M1A2: Face 3.66m (source armyrecognition) : 412m -> magnification 11.26x

HMMWV Side 4.6m (wikipédia) 519m -> 11.28x

T72 Face 3.6m (wikipédia) 387m (not accurate, daughter on my knees ) -> 10.75x

So i said 11x.

For the man : 200m -> 1.81m tall

edit : And this is what i want to make for arma :

[amrax 0]

rom_un, that formula only works for that online sim, forget any online sims, stick to the game.

Yea the 1.80m is about correct, 6 feet.

Quote[/b] ]I think their should be proper sniping in this game, with windage and elevation knobs, not user created or anything like that, I mean official.

A realism game that is supposed to simulate shouldn't be half assed, and it would be more rewarding for the sniper kills with a new system.

Thank you.

Animal-22, we know the size of a soldier by now.

The formulas you use, rom_un, are incorrect however.

The M107 sniper if accurate for well over 2KM so the 13cm bullet drop is inaccurate.

[rom_un 0]

Quote[/b] ]rom_un, that formula only works for that online sim, forget any online sims, stick to the game.

No, this formula is form the Thales' theorem. I learn it (and use it) in real life, not in online-sim (not for me, i use metric system ).

If my formula is incorrect, how can i find 1.81 for a man in the game ?

But perhaps you've got a better one to share ?

Quote[/b] ]The M107 sniper if accurate for well over 2KM so the 13cm bullet drop is inaccurate.

I've said : "In real with the .308win the non-conversion at 400m give 13 cm of bullet drop (average). "

.308win is for the M24, not the M107. And the 13cm is a calculation mistake (using real ballistic charts) if you use yard instead meters at 400m, not precision. For the M107, at 2km, the calculation mistake is bigger.

To go back to the subject

Quote[/b] ]Is there a way to adjust the scope's elevation, windage and focus?

Can we change the scope's elevation with a script ?

Or 'Can we change the value ingame of the weapons parameters ?'

It's a question for modder and I'd love to have an answer.

In original Ofp, the US sniper rifle was adjusting the elevation with the zoom. (and the range finder was scripted later)

sorry for my poor English speaking (but my French grammar is not better )

[Doc_69 0]

How about someone mods a Horus Falcon Tactical scope?

http://www.horusvision.com/scopes.shtml

HorusVision System5 scopes

Doc_69

[Animal-22 0]

I got a magnification of 12x, albeit only using 1 example.

Here's what I got. I set a M1A1 at 500m distance from me and measured the width of 8.8 mils. I also got the same real-world width spec 3.66m for an M1A1. Given the formulas I used above, if you solve for magnification, you get...

((Range * mils) / size) / 100 = Magnification

sooo.... ((500m * 8.8 mils) / 3.66m) / 100 = 12.02x magnification.

using 12x for a soldier I observed 4.3 mils @ 500m and solving for size I get...

((500m * 4.3 mils) / 12x magnification) / 100 = 1.8m or 5'11".

It seems odd to me that anyone would set a scope in a odd number magnification (11x) although it is certainly possible. Given the above observations, I would tend to believe the scoped is set to 12x magnification. It's likely I screwed up somewhere, so double check me. I think we can be certain that it isn't 14x or likely not 10x as well.

[Birgrim 0]

Well does anyone know the exact height or soldiers in ArmA? I've been trying to make the Mil formulae work in ArmA and so far it hasnt been working out too well. If someone has managed to make it work I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Despite the fact that I cannot get the official Mil calculations to work in ArmA, I still managed to create myself a table to calculate distance to target and elevation required in order to hit. What bugs me is not being able to make any sense of it. It seems pretty random so if someone could look at it and come up with an equation, it would be nice.

Targets Height / ~Distance / Elevation to Hit

7mils / 300M / 0mils

6mils / 350M / 0.5mils

5mils / 400m / 1mils

4mils / 500m / 2mils

3.5mils / 600m / 3mils

3mils / 700m / 4mils

2.5mils / 800m / 5mils

I get the feeling im going to get sniped alot more now that I've given up my tricks.

((Range * mils) / size) / 100 = Magnification

((350 * 6) / 1200 = 1.75

((400 * 5) / 1200 = 1.66

((500 * 4) / 1200 = 1.66

((600 * 3.5) / 1200 = 1.75

((700 * 3) / 1200 = 1.75

((800 * 2.5) / 1200 = 1.66

Seems pretty close. Of course when I calculated ranges in game I wasnt doing it precisely to a tenth of a mil, so results may vary, works for me though. :P

*Edit* Ok I went back and got it down more precisely.

((300 *7.2) / 1200= 1.8

((400 *5.2) / 1200= 1.73

((500 *4.3) / 1200= 1.79

((600 *3.8) / 1200= 1.9

((700 *3) / 1200= 1.75

((800 *2.6)/ 1200= 1.73

Makes even less sense now.

*Edit again*

Modified the mil values above so I would achieve a 1.8m target height, thats what the exact mil readings should be.

((300 *7.2) / 1200= 1.8

((400 *5.4) / 1200= 1.8

((500 *4.32) / 1200= 1.8

((600 *3.6) / 1200= 1.8

((700 *3.08) / 1200= 1.8

((800 *2.7)/ 1200= 1.8

[sektor 2]

Quote[/b] ]I think their should be proper sniping in this game, with windage and elevation knobs, not user created or anything like that, I mean official.

A realism game that is supposed to simulate shouldn't be half assed, and it would be more rewarding for the sniper kills with a new system.

Who's with me on this?

I'm with you, man. Doesn't have to be too complicated, but more demanding, so it could be used more tactically.

[ThePredator 0]

Guys, don't try to calculate the magnification, this is given in the configs already. I don't really get why you try to calculate an already existing and fixed value anyway.

Take the magnification as given and THEN calculate the height of an object.

Many games do NOT use 1:1 heights and therefore it does make a lot of sense to use what we already know as a fact.

And this is distance, MILS and magification.

[Animal-22 0]

All we are trying to do is come up with a forumla that works in-game. If the magnification is set at 14x, but due to all the other variables doesn't represent itself as 14x in-game, then we have to figure out what works. The bottom line is, if the magnification is 14x, then the size of the models is wrong. The M1A1 is not wide enough and soldiers are pretty darn short. If we assume the magnification is 12x, then the in-game world looks to be a pretty realistic. Look, I am not denying that the parameters might very well say the magnification is 14x, I'm just saying it doesn't represent itself that way in the game.

Also, all this was using the M24. Is it possible different rifles may have different magnifications?

[rom_un 0]

Quote[/b] ] Is it possible different rifles may have different magnifications ?

The same work should be done with all the scoped rifles. But perhaps we can find a coefficient like 12/14.

Quote[/b] ]why you try to calculate an already existing and fixed value anyway.

because

Quote[/b] ]Many games do NOT use 1:1 heights

and distance ...

If i put a object at 1000m of me with a viewdistance at 1050, i can not see it. I must set 1300 to the viewdistance to see it. Viewdistance is not meters.

So let us trying to find the values of Arma.

I've never give a order to anybody to use my formula, it's just sharing (like Birgrim do), you are free to use or not. We gived data used and method, so share your opinion's but don't order me to leave them.

My personal choice is : It's easier to remember that the scope is a 12x than learn every dimensions of each object in the game. Modded weapons will give us standard magnification.

Quote[/b] ]I know there was someone who said a human in ArmA is 1,50 m tall. So I take that as a fixed parameter.

This is not the way i choose to make an accurate database.

[amrax 0]

rom_un, why not just put 9mm round in the M107... :S

Put in the right ammu DUH.

Can we at least agree what the magnification is, 10x, 11x, 11.2x, 12x, 14x

Doc_69 those links aren't working.

Birgrim, stick to the game, not online sims.

Quote[/b] ]Also, all this was using the M24. Is it possible different rifles may have different magnifications?

Not rifles, scopes...

Quote[/b] ]And the 13cm is a calculation mistake (using real ballistic charts) if you use yard instead meters at 400m, not precision. For the M107, at 2km, the calculation mistake is bigger.

At ranges over 2KM it is possible to deliver a mil dot shot. so...

Quote[/b] ]But perhaps you've got a better one to share ?

Yes I do. Stand far enough from a hmmwv so that all 8 dots fill up it's height, divide that height by 8 from the GROUND, than put a soldier next to it and calculate.

The height of a hummwv was said to be 4.6m , right... 4.6m/8 dots=0.575m... so each dot from the lowest represents 0.575m. As you figure out how many dots a soldiers fills up : example : soldier fills up 3.2 dots... 3.2 * 0.575 = 1.84m.... simple isn't it?!

FORGET what magnification the scope has.

Even shit games like the Delta Force series have elevation for the snipers... so YES it is very possible only the makers didn't care too much as they got sloppy with other parts of the game which is disappointing....

8min math per shot is sad. Even if you'd figure it out, aiming between those dots is very difficult. How could you tell a 1/3 or 1/4 or 1/5 Damage your monitor .

Quote[/b] ]If i put a object at 1000m of me with a viewdistance at 1050, i can not see it. I must set 1300 to the viewdistance to see it. Viewdistance is not meters.

So let us trying to find the values of Arma.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Quote[/b] ]I've never give a order to anybody to use my formula, it's just sharing (like Birgrim do), you are free to use or not. We gived data used and method, so share your opinion's but don't order me to leave them.

It is about you putting wrong formulas out here which people deceive people.

We should put out information which is valid!

[Animal-22 0]

Birgirm... all you calculations being within .1 m at those ranges is pretty good for using a mildot scope. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the M24 represents itself as 12x in game and that the height of a soldier is 1.8m. Getting the exact right tenth of a mil every time is pretty difficult.

The next thing that we have to do to come up with a successful set of range and ballistic forumlas is to determine how realisitic the ballistic model is in-game. The next chance I get, I'll try and get real-world yardage cards and use those and see how accurate they are in-game.

[amrax 0]

Quote[/b] ]The next thing that we have to do to come up with a successful set of range and ballistic forumlas is to determine how realisitic the ballistic model is in-game. The next chance I get, I'll try and get real-world yardage cards and use those and see how accurate they are in-game.

That is what I said, please don't use my words as your own.

The M24 is 1MOA off in real life... in game I know how to try it but I haven't yet.

Here is a start of a confirmed fact. The M24 at 300M is accurate in the middle!

I recent;y found out that the scope of the SVD is leveled at 200m.

Quote[/b] ]--- Weapons.pbo ---

add to readme:

Optics/Ironsights leveling on distance:

50m > MP5, pistols

100m > AK74UN, M4/M16 with Aimpoint, ACOG sights or suppressor

120m-400m > M4SPR

200m > SVD, KSVK, AK74PSO

300m > AK74, AK74GL, AK74U, M16A2, M16GL, M16A4, M16A4GL, all G36, machineguns

500m > M107

I got this from the readme file of the 1.05 patch whether it is true I don't know, I didn't try the SVD! I also noticed the M24 is missing but I confirmed it's leveling at 300m (with 1.03 patch however, the demo!

Whatever, lets agree that a soldier's height is 1.8m +-!

[amrax 0]

What would solve our problem is a custom "sniper range map†with fixed distances from 100-1000 (200, 300, 400, etc etc), the only problem is that I don't know any map makers. "

[rom_un 0]

Quote[/b] ]The height of a hummwv was said to be 4.6m

Don't you think is a bit tall for a car ? (I know that easy from me )

Length is 4,6m, height is 1,8m reducible to 1,4m according to wiki. Can someone try to put a soldier near the car to compare ?

If i forget what magnification the scope has, i use again Thales and for 10 MILS: H/D = 4,6m/519m = [Man Height]/200m,

[Man Height]=4,6*200/519=1,77m

Quote[/b] ]

How did you come to that conclusion?

By testing ingame. For distance with a soldier under my order, a F2 hit show the distance. I consider it as a good one, it correspond to the 200m map squaring .

1 dot = 0.25 MILS for US Marines (oblong dots) and 1 dot =0.22 MILS for US Army (Arma case). Please don't confuse dots and MILS or you will "deceive people".

Quote[/b] ]8min math per shot is sad

That why we try to make something like this for Arma. When i get my position, i look over terain reference mark: This road is at 500m -> that dot, this tree is at 600m -> that dot. And i'm ready to the action.

Quote[/b] ]aiming between those dots is very difficult

+1 for US weapons without elevation adjust, but soviet scopes work like this.

Quote[/b] ]ballistic model [...] how accurate they are in-game

With 1 MILS for each 100m after 400m, we gonna have surprises.

For Mildot measure, setacctime=0.1 help a lot

Quote[/b] ]The M24 is 1MOA off in real life... in game I know how to try it but I haven't yet.

Tell me how you measure the precision, a script catch the bullet impact position ? With no persistent impact, i find it difficult. At 300m the M24 shoot in 3''.

Edit: I've made a custom "sniper range mapâ€, with radio trigger : Alpha setacctime 0.1, Bravo setacctime 1.0 (for reloading), and Charlie put a target camera (close) view for 3s.

[amrax 0]

Quote[/b] ]Don't you think is a bit tall for a car ? (I know that easy from me )

Length is 4,6m, height is 1,8m reducible to 1,4m according to wiki. Can someone try to put a soldier near the car to compare ?

You said it, but whatever it doesn't matter, put in any height for all I care as long as its the right one. It was an example.

Quote[/b] ]1 dot = 0.25 MILS for US Marines (oblong dots) and 1 dot =0.22 MILS for US Army (Arma case). Please don't confuse dots and MILS or you will "deceive people".

It is obvious I mend the game, I never mentioned any of those two.

Quote[/b] ]1 for US weapons without elevation adjust, but soviet scopes work like this.

I know but we would still have to aim between the dots, even if you'd set it correct you still have within 100m, 30m, 70m etc etc...

Quote[/b] ]Tell me how you measure the precision, a script catch the bullet impact position ? With no persistent impact, i find it difficult. At 300m the M24 shoot in 3''.

Not a script but with very good graphic card and two correct distances.

Quote[/b] ]I've made a custom "sniper range mapâ€, with radio trigger : Alpha setacctime 0.1, Bravo setacctime 1.0 (for reloading), and Charlie put a target camera (close) view for 3s.

Nice, did you get the results yet?

[rom_un 0]

Quote[/b] ]It is obvious I mend the game, I never mentioned any of those two.

This is about "soldier fills up 3.2 dots", you should say 3.2 MILS. It's too hard to measure with dots (except at long range >1500m, or small objects like antenna).

Quote[/b] ]Not a script but with very good graphic card

I can see the impact, but it is not enough precise to measure 1'' of difference between two shots. Is impacts persistent with your settings ?

Quote[/b] ]Nice, did you get the results yet?

I've already give it in this post. But this mission is really useful to test AT weapons too.

[Animal-22 0]

Not rifles, scopes...

Good grief, the scopes are attached to the particular rifle and not interchangeable at this point, so it makes more sense to say rifles as opposed to scopes. What kills me is in your own posts you go on to say a particular RIFLE is levelled at a certain distance and not the scope attached to that rifle. Go find somone else to nitpick.  

Anyway, I have found a ballistics card for .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO) and I will be testing it tonight. Also, I am pretty sure the in-game reticles are the US Army mil-dot scopes (round mil-dots) as opposed to USMC mil-dot scopes (oval mil-dots). Believe it or not... it makes a slight difference. But as we all know, slight differences at 300m are BIG differences at 800m or more.

Here is a sample of the tables I've come up with using *REAL WORLD* ballistics. They have not been tested in game. I also believe these are for scopes that have been zeroed at 100m. If the M24 in-game scope is indeed zeroed at 300m, then I believe you will need to subtract 1.5 mil from all elevation measurements.

Range (m)        Elevation (mils)

  300                   1.5 *0.0 if zeroed @ 300m*

  350                   2.0 *0.5 if zeroed @ 300m*

  400                   2.5 *1.0 if zeroed @ 300m*