New Gang In Town To Clean Up Campers!

[terox 316]

For those that dont understand what we are discussing here.

Spawn camping is when someone lays in a hidden location and takes down unsuspecting enemies as they either respawn or leave their respawning area.

Its seen by many as very bad form of gameplay. mainly because those who want to play fair, simply want to get back into the playing area of the flags etc and dont see a respawn zone or its border as a viable location for ambushing

Sat in a hide, sniping a flag isnt seen as bad gameplay, infact its real life tactics, this i believe isnt at question here

Spawn camping gameplay is created by having a single linear pathway to the objectives, or limited concentrated gameplay area's

Take a ctf for instance, the line between your respawn zone, your flag, the enemy flag and their respawn zone is, in 99 times out of 100 cases a straight line whith the majority of players following that line give or take 50 meteres either side of it

This means that a 12 man team could work the majority of its members at a respawn zone (away from the playing area) leaving a small contingent to cap flags at their leisure. A tactic often seen in CTF league play, where a teams cohesion and teamwork was much stronger than would be seen in public play

Fortunately C&H was developed, mainly thanks to Tactician

This style of map normally consisted of 3 flags, sometimes more

From a spawn camping point of view, the single linear pathway from spawn was now tripled, each path leading to a single flag A camping team now had to spread out over at least 6 locations

and ideally had to protect pathways between these 3 flags as well. The gameplay shifted from 1 flag to another as they were "capped". There simply was too many holes to plug, so spawn camping C&H was difficult to accomplish apart from the odd few badly sited missions

CTI

A) well you had to find their base

B) then you had to get past the AI

and then if you managed to shoot a unit, his mates would soon send you back to your respawnand CTI was all about ripping into the base anyway

A&D

How can you spawn camp either side when there is no respawn

So to prevent spawn camping, you either

1) Create multiple pathways to multi objective playing areas

2) for missions like CTF, create a protected zone with some form of spawn camping punishment system, because if you dont, some teams will abuse the system and not play fair

If both teams are aware of how they will be punished if they break the rules of engagement, then they so deserve a 5 minute time out of whatever other punishment that fits the bill

If ya dont want the punishment, dont spawn camp... simple!

[whisper 0]

I don't understand why people try to turn this game into BF2. The appeal of OFP and ArmA, at least for me, is that the maps are big. Ideally, I'd like to play some maps where the idea of "camping" in a place where soldiers "spawn" is obsolete. From what I've played of this game so far, most of the MP servers play either coops or small CTF's where every human player controls himself, with no one else in his squad, and just run off randomly. Then, once you die, you get pretty much instantly respawned back at the base to repeat the whole thing over. The whole thing about areas being off limits, "being shot for desertion" etc is just stupid. I'm also not very fond of scoreboards. This stuff takes away from the whole "war" feeling, and makes it feel more like a an arcade game or a paintball game. NO, you cant shoot me here, I'm in respawn safe zone!@!! Boring, gimme some large scale maps that require actual teamwork and strategy.

Give it time, mission makers are working

[Heatseeker 0]

...

I understand what your on about, i agree that "measures" to prevent spawn camping are important in team based, adversarial game modes.

I also agree that this should be taken into acount by mission editors while creating maps.

Creating safe respawn areas and non linear/multiple objectives, using the terrain effectively, etc to prevent spawn camping and creating a less predictable and more challenging battlefield.

But this thread is about something else...

[walker 0]

Thats why i explainded theres different types of camping. Someone sitting on a buildings edge leaning with a barbewire infront of him making it impossible to hit him will just ruin the game. Its lame and very unmature. Camping is a part of the game but exploiting it like some player does in ArmA is just wrong

Hi all

There is nothing wrong with people finding a good spot to camp and snipe from.

This is not whiner BF42 or run and gun land.

This is what the M-203 is for. Hopfuly the multiple grenade launchers like the M-32 or the new MASTER BLASTER: Milkor MGL-140 will be in ArmA soon.

In OFP I made it my speciality to kill snipers by listening to their shots and guessing where they were hid... I loved suprising them with 3 nades on their little spot, squelch sniper jam  

I dare say a few of the Zeus crowd can atest to my accuracy with an M-32.

It is much easier now in ArmA with the sonic snap modeled now I can guess range much better. It is also a great weapon for recon by fire on bushes and buildings. You either kill em or the wounded scream and the next nade puts them out of their missery. The only downside is runing out of nades and limited range. But that is what your silenced machine pistol like your scorpion or mach ten is for.

Kind Regards walker

[froggyluv 2136]

I agree Walker its very realistic to guard a protected resource(flag) with snipers and to have to flush them out.

My issue is with Arma's sound though. I play with headphones but It just seems like the audio effects are'nt coming from an exact location unlike ofp. Is this a standard problem in the game or something on my end that needs to enabled.

[richard_dean_anderson 0]

Give it time, mission makers are working

Yep, that's what I'm doing. I have no doubt that pretty soon we'll have some good MP missions that will let us play the way the game is meant to be played. Namely a proper CTI. Then all I'll need to do is find some quality people to play with.

[celery 8]

...that will let us play the way the game is meant to be played. Namely a proper CTI.

It's funny how you co-oppers and CTI players feel so much above the rest just because you kill mindless bots and buy tanks and choppers.

It's like saying CTF is the one and only thing this game was meant for, you like the idea of that? No? That's right, everyone can decide how to play it, but please, show some respect to others styles of play.

[cain2001 0]

Once CR gets his ArmA copy the new generation CTI will be released.

Heatseeker, you really poiting finger at the wrong man here. If you would take time to read the post of this topic you would see what I mean. I guess i was unclear so ill say it again.

Being a OFP and ArmA dedicated fan I do everything from making maps, playing coops, cqb ctfs and help out with the ArmA online gaming community. I love making maps, I love playing Coops and CQB CTFs used to be fun maps who gave me the look of the close combat side of OFP (Run cover, run cover, nade, run, shoot, gaming style etc). I love this game so much I cant stick to one kind of gaming style. Anyone, times changed in OFP and maps like Hexenkessel and other shoebox maps.

Quote[/b] ]*shoebox maps are maps where you scrooll around the map editor with your eyes closed, you stop at a randomly selected location and place buildings all over the place. Put 2 flags in their and you got yourself a CQB map. This sort of maps are very popular in OFP and ArmA.

This new maps with all these buildings made people camp. No longer was it a true cover and run tactic game. It was find a building, camp, kill 7 people then move to next one and getting the flag? Who wants flags!!!. This pissed me and couple of other guys off backin OFP thats why we made a little movie about it. (This can be compared to the CTI shelling from 10000000 meters away that pissed me off because that was just lame and unfair. Put a artillery tank for 15k in their instead and problem would be solved).

Anyway, I by my ArmA copy and what do i Find out? Maps in ArmA are still like in OFP. No change at all, still shoebox formation maps and Coop. I started playing Coop first week but since im a man of many aspects of this game I had to try the CTF maps. (There was a few BF C&H maps i really enjoyed). Playing those CTF maps pretty much put me to where iam typing this.

So you see Heat, Im just like you. Well Im not. Instead of sitting on a forum complaing on how lame some parts of a game is. I acually try to change it back for for new better thing. I want those lame campers gone from this game and send to play tetris for the rest of their lives.

Please let me know you dont understand

// Cain

[mrj-fin 0]

Once CR gets his ArmA copy the new generation CTI will be released.

I hope this happend fast becouse now I am stucked 16-hours-on every day playing OFP crCTI.

This game can attaractive large variety of player reasoining of freedom and modability.

[russin 0]

War = holding areas on a map witch = camping those who camp well and hold there zone will win.....

shelling is a part of War in todays game and even in yesterdays game that said

see you on the battle field and ill have fun plucking you off running in a open field while im camped on the other side of a bush

[Abbe 0]

ok, you guys are talking about spawnrape. Sure, it's no fun but still, in very many smaller CTF maps the only way of securing a flag is by first securing the spawn (isn't this even the whole point of CTF!?). I'm the first to admit I hate beeing spawnraped but that is more to do with mapdesign then a whish to acctually kill ppl in their spawn. There should be ways of getting out of spawn before beeing shot

If the spawn has been taken by the other team I guess we just have to figure a way of getting out retake it...(before we crash our keybords on the desk and curse so the birds drop dead from the trees...)

/Abbe

[froggyluv 2136]

If 'camping' means setting up a defensive position to guard one's flag I'm guilty of it but I was beaten. My flag was being grabbed constantly as my team lacked any cohesion while opfor's team was operating like a well-oiled machine. So I picked a well concealed position and picked off maybe 3 of them before they came back with a great decoy and flank plan which took me down.Thats how 'camping' is beaten, a well thought out strategy to distract or flush out the hidden soldier.

As far as 'spawn camping', I think it sucks but it takes the awareness of the entire team to backpeddle, working as a group to take out the transgressor.

[whisper 0]

Give it time, mission makers are working

Yep, that's what I'm doing. I have no doubt that pretty soon we'll have some good MP missions that will let us play the way the game is meant to be played. Namely a proper CTI. Then all I'll need to do is find some quality people to play with.

You yourself is closing around the idea only CTI is the proper way to play the game.

Time to move on. Something new can be done.

Btw Celery is 100% correct. This Holier Than Thou attitude will bring us nowhere.

ArmA scope is large enough for more than 1 or 2 playstyles.

[Heatseeker 0]

Heatseeker, you really poiting finger at the wrong man here. If you would take time to read the post of this topic you would see what I mean. I guess i was unclear so ill say it again.

...

This new maps with all these buildings made people camp. No longer was it a true cover and run tactic game. It was find a building, camp, kill 7 people then move to next one and getting the flag? Who wants flags!!!

...

So you see Heat, Im just like you. Well Im not. Instead of sitting on a forum complaing on how lame some parts of a game is. I acually try to change it back for for new better thing. I want those lame campers gone from this game and send to play tetris for the rest of their lives.

Please let me know you dont understand

// Cain

You are contradicting yourself...

Cover and run, you sould run when its safe to do so, if a player takes out 7 guys from behind cover before going for a flag he is a good (or atleast smart) player. If you see 6 guys taken out in a row by someone who is holding an area from cover and you still rush you deserve to either die or play CS for the rest of your life.

The problem starts with the shitty cqb walled in maps, they limit the players movement options and remove the ability to flank.

These maps are inspired by arcade games where you bunny hop and acurately shoot on the run, that stuff just doesnt work here.

If you play proper maps you will have options to take out players using cover (call for a sniper, shell, flank, nade, etc).

You are saying that someone who efficiently uses cover should be playing tetris and you want this game to become (in your eyes only) a better thing but you cant, you cant dictate bad rules or force players to play like idiots.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Spawn killing and base raping is down to mission designers and fairly easy to solve with terrox's ECL templates and scripts which should port straight to ArmA from OFP.

Simple Exclusion kill zones and placing of bases and spawns inside them so spawn campers have to do 5 minutes of "You have been a naughty little boy" cut scene usually with a firing squad or ten to reduce their kill ratio.

For TKS It reduces their kill count as TKs count negative and the Bots on their own side start targeting them, which tends to freak them.

Adding 10 and 30 points to peoples kill count for a flag touch and full capture is a fairly simple matter via a script. Then the camper ends up way below the others in the rankings.

That said camping teaches people to sneak around open areas or correctly use vehicles. I saw this in the beginning in the Demo CTF, a lot of stupid running across open ground, now people have stopped stupidly running across the open ground, now people have leaned better, so the snipers are out of business. You even see the sniper rifles left in the crate because they are useless close up.

People plan more, hide their vehicles, use the truck to create road blocks to prevent sudden flag runs. BRDMs get taken out by guys with MGs who take out a tyre. People never sit in the gunner spot of a hummer for long. They now sit down in the armoured back only getting on the gun when needed.

It is what happened in reality in Iraq. First of the Hummer MGs did not have armour now they all have those sloped cupolas.

What that is is people learning and adapting.

Kind Regards Walker

[cain2001 0]

Quote[/b] ] The problem starts with the shitty cqb walled in maps, they limit the players movement options and remove the ability to flank.

These maps are inspired by arcade games where you bunny hop and acurately shoot on the run, that stuff just doesnt work here.

If you play proper maps you will have options to take out players using cover (call for a sniper, shell, flank, nade, etc).

This is 100% true! I agree with you.

Quote[/b] ] You are saying that someone who efficiently uses cover should be playing tetris and you want this game to become (in your eyes only) a better thing but you cant, you cant dictate bad rules or force players to play like idiots.

Cover and run, you sould run when its safe to do so, if a player takes out 7 guys from behind cover before going for a flag he is a good (or atleast smart) player. If you see 6 guys taken out in a row by someone who is holding an area from cover and you still rush you deserve to either die or play CS for the rest of your life.

We must think of 2 different "Cover and Run" tactics. I belive I can say that I have a general better view of how gaming is done on the CQB maps.

By my book there are 2 sort of players.

#1 The ones who play as a team, trying to move up together giving eachother covering fire and their only goal is to score flags. To do this effective you will need to move to a object that gives you enough cover, wait 10s-30s for your team mates to do the same thing. Then you move up again. This is what I have used for 5 years in clanwars and I can say it worked very effective for #DK#. (This is what I call Run and Cover. Dont mix it up with anything else please)

#2 This is the player who dont see him as a part of the team, he belive he is a one man army and think the game is won by killing as much as possible. He find himself a very good location around the mid area of the map. He starts shooting people as they come to the middle. He kills a couple of guys by deicdes to stay instead of moving up. 4 guys stays camping and 4 of the other players moves up to take the flag. Since the other team now have 8 players at their flag, they will have no problem killing the attackers. 8 guys are now doing their counterattack only be gunned down by the 4 campers. (These are players who would do more for their team if they moved up but they choose not to because they know they will get more kills if they stay. These are the players i want to go and play tetris.

I salute all other players who choosen to play this game as a team and work for the better good.

I hope you can see that we mean the same things Heat. Just trust me on this one.

[cain2001 0]

BTW, Dont forget the players who turn down their graphics to see the enemies better and get more frames lol. This is a good example that you rather want more kills than to play a game with good graphics and a realistic enviorment!

Normal Settings

LOW SETTINGS

[whisper 0]

Mmmh, apart from gaining FPS, how will the low settings see more things?

[Heatseeker 0]

Mmmh, apart from gaining FPS, how will the low settings see more things?

That one is easy. Low lod bushes and objects are less detailed so provide less concealment.

Low resolution ground textures and objects make soldier models stand out better, etc.

In Arma the shadows and lighting will have an heavy impact on what one gamer sees and the other one doesnt.

I dont see a solution for this other than making graphic settings server enforced, wich is not a fair solution since Arma hw requirements are already very demanding...

cain2001...

I still disagree with you. Its perfectly acceptable for players to hold a position or guard an objective, if you cant take them out then its the maps fault for being poorly designed and not taking advantage of Arma's open, non linear gameplay.

In a 4 vs 4 objective based adversarial map its perfectly reasonable to have 2 players defending and 2 players assaulting.

Its not the players fault that people come up with disfunctional "sandbox", rectangular maps.

If i reach a flag and decide to "camp" it so that a teamate can take it and head back safelly i will.

On my part... end of discussion.

[whisper 0]

Mmmh, apart from gaining FPS, how will the low settings see more things?

That one is easy. Low lod bushes and objects are less detailed so provide less concealment.

Screens above doesn't show that. "Less detailed" can very much mean "slightly bigger", "rough edges covering more", etc..., it's completely dependant on several factors.

Very true on the shadow statement though.

[celery 8]

Shadows should be everyone's own choice, you can't choose between object and vehicle shadow in ArmA anymore, so it's pretty fair. No shadows means more fps, shadows on to have a chance of locating your enemies.

[Zerg 0]

...that will let us play the way the game is meant to be played. Namely a proper CTI.

It's funny how you co-oppers and CTI players feel so much above the rest just because you kill mindless bots and buy tanks and choppers.

Richard Dean Anderson is hardly a representative of CTI players.

But yes I noticed this snobbery you mention in alot of co-oppers myself. Infact one example just very recently.

[Zerg 0]

As for the whole what is wrong with camping if it is effective and plausible thing...

Anybody that doesn`t think camping is lame has a very distorted view on the nature of PvP MP. For nearly anyone playing PvP MP games they aren`t about reinactment of Dieppe Raid nor of the Iranian Embassy Siege. They are not about playing soldier and mimicking real life millitary operations. And they are definetley not a polygon for development of millitary tactics for real life. What they are to a huge overwhelming majority of players is an entertainment, a recreation or a sport.

Now in many sport there are tactics that while don`t represent cheating are lame and unsportive. In football one of those is called a proffesional foul (intentionaly fouling an opponent in a goalscoring opportunity). Now proffesional foul isn`t cheating since the player isn`t trying to hide it, plus (since the 1980s) he will be cauntioned or a sent off for it and jet it is considered extremley lame and very unsportive. And this is on proffesional level. It is so lame it is absolutley untinkable of anybody intentionaly fouling in a pastime game of football.

It is the same with camping in PvP. It isn`t cheating but it definetly also isn`t sportive. There is definetley something wrong with exploiting the mission in such a cynical way that it kills all the fun for every other participant. Esspecialy so when it is done just so you boost your kill count which isn`t even the objective of the game (at least proffesional fouling is done for the scoreline and not for own perverse pleasure). And finally it isn`t even hard. It takes no special skills. Any moron can find a good camping spot and proceed to rack up the kills killing all the fun for every other player. Its just that mayority of us aren`t assholes and like to play in accordance to the spirit as well as the rules of the game.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Zerg, your words make me a fan of your wisdom.

GAME ON!

[froggyluv 2136]

I'm an old OFP player/fan but new to MP gaming in with Arma(demo) and I'm not really sure what constitutes 'camping.'

Obviously I understand "spawnkilling" but as regards to the flag. When I see multiple enemies on radar close to my HQ, is it wrong to set up position on the flag?