Hand Grenade Delay

[Easy_tiger 0]

lol Mat that sound like a bad action movie title

[Kirq 0]

This topic touches few lacking aspects of ArmA.

1. Fact that animation has to finish before any other action is perfored ( even dying ) is pretty anoying especialny when you are being shot at I dont know if its an issue which can be resolved with current engine but i hope soo .

2. Nade handlig in ArmA seems to be unfinished ( i hope ) cause there is no short throw or roll. If you want to toss nade not far you have to throw it ( with full strenght ) at your feet and prey itll bouce in right direction

3. There is no nade cocking which seems to be a must in realistic war simulator imho.

4. Sometimes nade bounces like rubber ball, it makes imposible to place nade in desired area.

I hope all this problems/lacks will be fixed in one of nearest patches.

--EDIT--

Did You noticed that throwing animation sometimes can get you through the fences ? i felt from the chimney once because of that ^^

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Quote[/b] ]

2. Nade handlig in ArmA seems to be unfinished ( i hope ) cause there is no short throw or roll. If you want to toss nade not far you have to throw it ( with full strenght ) at your feet and prey itll bouce in right direction

I'd really like some more options in this too like you suggest.

But what you get now is the old OFP grenade throwing

scheme - so it's not likely to be expanded by BIS.

Quote[/b] ]

3. There is no nade cocking which seems to be a must in realistic war simulator imho.

I presume you mean "arming" rather than "cocking". Well,

I'd say don't hold your breath waiting for this in a game

that doesn't even have the characters load their weapons

properly!  I recall that one of the addon grenade packs

had a nice "piiiing!" sound that mimicked the safety lever

flying off your bomb when you threw it - that'd help a bit.

[znashin 0]

Arming a grenade and holding on to it while the fuse burns is sometimes called "cooking a grenade".

[olemissrebel 0]

And is an excellent way to get blown the fuck up and screw your battle buddies. Blue Falcon all the way, hooah.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I agree with Easy_tiger here. If you throw a grenade in

the dreaded 3rd person view, the little bod plays his

throwing animation then goes right back to his aim position -

you are then forced to wait a few seconds (with the

character holding his rifle in the aim) before another bomb

can be thrown.  The grenade throwing delay looks to be a

mere "reload time" config setting issue (and thus easily

tweaked), not anim related.

I know, I said this twice already. I was just making a seperate but related point with the anims. Also, yes the anims can be modified, but not broken up, not without engine modifications. The most you can do is insert a set of throwing anims for hand guns and replace the other throwing anims.

Now as for the debate about the grenade handling being "unfinished", I really don't think so. First off, tossing a grenade only a short distance isn't safe, at least with most types of grenades. Second, with such features it would take even longer to throw grenades, and that's what the original concern was.

Quote[/b] ]3. There is no nade cocking which seems to be a must in realistic war simulator imho.

That's sad, because it's not a very realistic tactic. First reason is that most hand grenades have a lever (called a spoon) that must be depressed (and you have to actually squeeze the thing) in order to remove the pin, and the grenade only arms after the spoon is released; which should be the result of throwing the grenade. Second, you can't count on most grenade fuses to detinate (or not detinate) at a specific time, the precision of the delay isn't very good, and there could be a difference of a few seconds each time, thus it is impossible to count to 3 for example and expect the grenade to detinate 2 seconds after that, where it might take as many as 5 seconds after you count to 3 (the M67 fuse time is about 5-8 seconds). Third, it's dangerous as olemissrebel briefly described, and fourth some modern hand grenades have selectable or multifunctional fuses, where they might detinate both on impact and time delay, so there would be no point in cooking them off unless you had a death wish.

[olemissrebel 0]

Just because you have been able to 'cook off' hand grenades in other video games, et cetera doesn't mean folks do it in real life. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it's a very, very stupid thing to attempt, much less try to do in the heat of combat. Grenades are a LOT louder than portrayed in any of these games, they will knock you out of your senses and deafen you if you are close.

[Kirq 0]

1. Now as for the debate about the grenade handling being "unfinished", I really don't think so. First off, tossing a grenade only a short distance isn't safe, at least with most types of grenades. Second, with such features it would take even longer to throw grenades, and that's what the original concern was.

2. That's sad, because it's not a very realistic tactic. First reason is that most hand grenades have a lever (called a spoon) that must be depressed (and you have to actually squeeze the thing) in order to remove the pin, and the grenade only arms after the spoon is released; which should be the result of throwing the grenade. Second, you can't count on most grenade fuses to detinate (or not detinate) at a specific time, the precision of the delay isn't very good, and there could be a difference of a few seconds each time, thus it is impossible to count to 3 for example and expect the grenade to detinate 2 seconds after that, where it might take as many as 5 seconds after you count to 3 (the M67 fuse time is about 5-8 seconds). Third, it's dangerous as olemissrebel briefly described, and fourth some modern hand grenades have selectable or multifunctional fuses, where they might detinate both on impact and time delay, so there would be no point in cooking them off unless you had a death wish.

Ad1. During CQC ( Close Quarters Combat ) soldiers ofted throw ( roll ) nades 2-3 meter away from their position. It hapens when they clear rooms or throw nades over walls ot solid fences.

Ad2. Tell that to soldiers which receied back their own nade from enemy because they didnt cooked it before throw. Read some historical ww2 books and then try to argue.

PS. Cooking nade is nothing more than pulling pin and releasing spon while still holding a nade and throwing it after 2-3 seconds to take away your enemy oportunity to throw back your nade, veteran soldier used this technique to detonate frag nades over hidden enemies.

[canukausiuka 1]

The only time I've ever been taught (in ROTC cadet-land, of course) to cook a grenade is before throwing into a bunker. And when you do that, you aren't throwing it so much as shoving it in. Sure, its a fun feature, but not one worth worrying about.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Ad2. Tell that to soldiers which receied back their own nade from enemy because they didnt cooked it before throw. Read some historical ww2 books and then try to argue.

WWII was very different from today, and not just technologically. Sure they might have done it way back then, but now soldiers are trained differently and use different tactics, and friendly fire (and safety) is a bigger concern than it once was. Not to mention that the use of hand grenades has definately declined since then, since there are much easier/safer ways of killing the enemy now, so there's no longer any real need for such a desperate tactic. Anyway my point is that it doesn't belong in ArmA, it's certainly more of an arcady feature too, and it's not a proper tactic. I mean god forbid ArmA players start suicide bombing all of the time with hand grenades (yes this happens so damn much in other games with this feature).

[Col. Faulkner 0]

"Cooking off" hand grenades is actually recommended in the

current US Army Field Manual FM 3-23-30:

Para 3-4 "...remove the grenade’s safety pin, release the

safety lever, count ONE THOUSAND ONE, ONE THOUSAND

TWO, and throw the grenade. This is called cooking-off.

Cooking-off expends a sufficient period (about 2 seconds) of

the grenade’s 4- to 5-second delay. This causes the grenade

to detonate above ground or shortly after impact with the

target. Do not cook-off fragmentation or white phosphorous

hand grenades when in training."

Whether or not it is actually done in practise is not relevant

to the fact that it is regarded officially as a viable technique.

And throwing grenades a short distance is safe if you do it

from behind cover. These weapons are prescribed for use in

house and bunker clearing during which of necessity they are

used at close range.

Edit: This doesn't mean that I support the introduction

of "cooking off" into ArmA. It would have little practical

application there. I do however think that more flexibility

and precision in throwing grenades to various distances is

needed in the game.

[S.O.S 0]

I think you may be in a minority on this one, desert fox :/

who u think u r?

The handgrenade throwing animations and all the delays for throwing a fucking handgrenade r definitly a way to long - in real life at army it took me 3 seconds to take it from the belt, remove the lock, remove the trigger and throw it. in armed assault it takes like 10 seconds to trow 2 handgrenades which is totaly uneffective.

also the soldier movement is a way to unsmooth in this game. i stopped playing it.

[Easy_tiger 0]

Im happy with the animation for grenade throwing and think it is significantly better than that of OFP (which resembled some bizzare improvised dance routine more than throwing a grenade) : p

Now it has been identified that it is most likely that the grenade delay is dictatable by the weapon objects reload time property (like dev didnt know anyway lol ) it would be great if the reload time could be dropped in the 505 release.

I think halfing it would be sufficient.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

"Cooking off" hand grenades is actually recommended in the

current US Army Field Manual FM 3-23-30:

Para 3-4 "...remove the grenade’s safety pin, release the

safety lever, count ONE THOUSAND ONE, ONE THOUSAND

TWO, and throw the grenade. This is called cooking-off.

Cooking-off expends a sufficient period (about 2 seconds) of

the grenade’s 4- to 5-second delay. This causes the grenade

to detonate above ground or shortly after impact with the

target. Do not cook-off fragmentation or white phosphorous

hand grenades when in training."

Whether or not it is actually done in practise is not relevant

to the fact that it is regarded officially as a viable technique.

And throwing grenades a short distance is safe if you do it

from behind cover. These weapons are prescribed for use in

house and bunker clearing during which of necessity they are

used at close range.

Edit: This doesn't mean that I support the introduction

of "cooking off" into ArmA. It would have little practical

application there. I do however think that more flexibility

and precision in throwing grenades to various distances is

needed in the game.

I would imagine it's not a very popular tactic anyway. Yes, I can imagine 1 or 2 seconds, but anything longer and it's called just plain suicide bombing, IMO. Still, I like the idea of selectable and multifunctional fuses, which is actually already possible to do in ArmA (it was in OFP too, take a look at the RGO and RGN in my pack). As for short distances, I don't know how that would work in a game like ArmA, especially without reliable explosion confinment (ArmA has some new feature that seems to keep explosions from penetrating objects, though I'm not sure how it works, and it doesn't seem very effective) for keeping you safe from behind cover. But still, if there's a demand for it, the grenade's init velocity can be controlled via scripts, a proper interface is only required afterwards, which should also now be possible in ArmA.

[Millenium7 0]

stopping explosions from going through a wall is very simple, its called line of sight. I think OFP/ArmA does a radius check and applies damage to anything in the area thus hurting you through walls. Whereas it should either 'wrap' the radius up/down walls or check for a line of sight between all vehicles/soldiers in the explosion radius. This does not work very well though with destructables, if you place a grenade behind a box or a door you would not be hurt even if your right up close, but its better than what we currently have. This game is supposed to have bullet penetration isn't it? well so far its craptacular you can't even shoot through tin but if they fix that they could simulate grenades pretty well with a 'wrapping' explosion radius that breaches areas (doors, windows, boxes, barrels etc) depending on penetration values. You might be slightly hurt if your crouching directly behind a door but severely hurt if your in the same room crouching behind a box, or standing in front of a window

As for throwing different distances well there is 1 simple quick system I can think of but not sure if its possible to implement in ArmA. You throw a grenade depending on where you are looking

If you look at your feet and throw a grenade then you will roll it (who pegs a grenade at their feet anyway )

Look at the ground and you toss it a couple of metres

Looking ahead will throw with a flatter trajectory and moderate range

Look high and you throw it with a high trajectory as hard as you can

While they are at it bring in a crosshair that indicates how you will throw the grenade

[Big Dawg KS 6]

if you place a grenade behind a box or a door you would not be hurt even if your right up close

Not if it's a fragmentation grenade, the fragments will rip right through. Then again, even a concussion grenade can produce shrapnel, and can probably blow up a door. And line of sight is not a proper method either, since the shock from the explosion can penetrate objects and it can injure you.

[Millenium7 0]

you misunderstood what I typed, read it again. Using line of sight to stop grenades from blowing you up behind a wall has the problem of not knowing about penetration, so if you are behind anything no matter how fragile you will not be damaged. This is where penetration comes in and can be done a few ways. The quickest, simplest and quite sufficient ways to use in ArmA are either 'wrapping' (so the explosion radius wraps up against walls instead of going through them, and would be the better method for environment simulation) or line of sight both with penetration values to simulate shrapnel among other nasties. It won't tear through a stone wall, but it would tear through a door or box with reduced damage

edit: line of sight with penetration would just be a predetermined radius lets say 5 metres, player1 is 2 metres from the explosion behind a box, player2 is 1 metre from explosion behind a stone wall. Line of sight ignores all objects with a pentration value < 1 so player2 is not even checked and won't be harmed player1 is, a 2nd check determines if there are any objects between him and the explosion, there is a box with a penetration value of 0.2, so apply damage / distance - penetration

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Well it would be better if BIS just implimented fragments/shrapnel into the game. Yes you can do it with scripting but it's CPU intensive and won't give you (the person who fired the explosive) credit for the damage.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Well it would be better if BIS just implimented fragments/shrapnel into the game. Yes you can do it with scripting but it's CPU intensive and won't give you (the person who fired the explosive) credit for the damage.

What if you 'simulated' shrapnel with bullets which spawn randomly from the place where the nade exploded?

*Assumes that its possible to detect the position of a grenade*

[Kirq 0]

What if you 'simulated' shrapnel with bullets which spawn randomly from the place where the nade exploded?

*Assumes that its possible to detect the position of a grenade*

That would be great. I dont know if its posible with ArmA engine but this feature is already in Infiltration ( UT mod).

[Maddmatt 1]

What if you 'simulated' shrapnel with bullets which spawn randomly from the place where the nade exploded?

*Assumes that its possible to detect the position of a grenade*

That would be great. I dont know if its posible with ArmA engine but this feature is already in Infiltration ( UT mod).

It would need to be supported in the game engine, not done by scripts though. The reason is it would not credit the person with the kill if done by scripting, as KyleSarnik said.

[NeMeSiS 11]

What if you 'simulated' shrapnel with bullets which spawn randomly from the place where the nade exploded?

*Assumes that its possible to detect the position of a grenade*

That would be great. I dont know if its posible with ArmA engine but this feature is already in Infiltration ( UT mod).

It would need to be supported in the game engine, not done by scripts though. The reason is it would not credit the person with the kill if done by scripting, as KyleSarnik said.

In the end thats only a problem in MP, and only in CTF/DMs where people look at scores.

EDIT: *deleted part about how you could detect the shooter of the grenade, it wouldnt work anyway*

[Maddmatt 1]

In the end thats only a problem in MP, and only in CTF/DMs where people look at scores.

EDIT: *deleted part about how you could detect the shooter of the grenade, it wouldnt work anyway*

It's still a problem. And it effects SP too, you don't see your kills under "statistics", you can't report to your squad that you took out the enemy, you can get away with friendly kills, AI wouldn't know what happened - it will think it was killed by accident and wont look for threats or search for whoever threw the grenade.

[NeMeSiS 11]

it will think it was killed by accident and wont look for threats or search for whoever threw the grenade.

Thats the only real gameplay problem IMO, i guess you can fix this with making the grenade some a very tiny amount of area damage in a big radius (+- the ingame effective range of the grenade).

I dont think that people who kill their own troops in SP care about them shooting back, or their score..

But in the end it would be better if BIS implented this, as you just showed, modding can only go so far while BIS are the almighty developers who can really change things

(But if BIS doesnt do it, then the community will have to, hell, i might do it myself one day if noone else does, i prefer a not-perfect grenade over a 'almighty blast trough walls' grenade )

[max power 21]

I think you may be in a minority on this one, desert fox :/

who u think u r?

The handgrenade throwing animations and all the delays for throwing a fucking handgrenade r definitly a way to long - in real life at army it took me 3 seconds to take it from the belt, remove the lock, remove the trigger and throw it. in armed assault it takes like 10 seconds to trow 2 handgrenades which is totaly uneffective.

also the soldier movement is a way to unsmooth in this game. i stopped playing it.

I'm not entitled to think initially that I'm in the majority? Huh. That changes everything!