Please fix the AI

[whisper 0]

"...and it would be great if we can do that without scripts". as someone said, that's what most of ppl who "complaints" about AI are asking for. cuz using scripts to make AI looks smarter causes heavy lag, you know. That IS BIS's part. cuz blah blah... well, that's just imo.

You know what? BI will do it by scripts anyway. With their "FSM" feature. In fact the current AI enhancement (bounding overwatch and such) are done with FSM, I guess. Ie, with scripts.

[5cent_at_NY 0]

Well, that means the player who don't know how to write scripts (like me) will never meet their expectation in ArmA anyway, right?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Well, that means the player who don't know how to write scripts (like me) will never meet their expectation in ArmA anyway, right?

Either you can play missions made by others who use these scripts, or you can use scripts made by others (from their missions/addons)

DAC was a great example of how dynamic the AI can be made with scripts, it was quite easy to set up a full scale, dynamic war with it. Were squads could call in for reinforcements, etc etc.

However, DAC didn't add things like taking cover or less suicidal behaviour, and such things should (IMO) added/edited in the .fsm's, preferably by BIS, but if they dont find a proper way to implent it then maybe a less proper way can be made by the community.

[whisper 0]

Well, I've heard about the possibility to include addons inside missions, is it only rumors or is it true? If true, then a simple config thing overriding default FSM, and we're set (provided new better FSM are made)

[5cent_at_NY 0]

Well, that means the player who don't know how to write scripts (like me) will never meet their expectation in ArmA anyway, right?

Either you can play missions made by others who use these scripts, or you can use scripts made by others (from their missions/addons)

DAC was a great example of how dynamic the AI can be made with scripts, it was quite easy to set up a full scale, dynamic war with it. Were squads could call in for reinforcements, etc etc.

However, DAC didn't add things like taking cover or less suicidal behaviour, and such things should (IMO) added/edited in the .fsm's, preferably by BIS, but if they dont find a proper way to implent it then maybe a less proper way can be made by the community.

Yup. i already have tried DAC and it was great. but it's different from what we wanted... just as you know. it's definitely a good thing that the community try to do their best for AI and something, but, i come to feels like it means BI doesn' need to care about AI (which most important and hardest part) anymore. because ppl thinks like "well, it's ok. the community will take care of it".

It makes me thinking i have no doubt that we'll have to play the same game even in 2008 or 09. BI will never try to make realism enhancement. ppl thinks it IS realistic, so all they need to do is just upgrade it's graphic... that's what i feared most. it's already happen in ArmA...

[NeMeSiS 11]

Yup. i already have tried DAC and it was great. but it's different from what we wanted... just as you know. it's definitely a good thing that the community try to do their best for AI and something, but, i come to feels like it means BI doesn' need to care about AI (which most important and hardest part) anymore. because ppl thinks like "well, it's ok. the community will take care of it".

I believe they will make some enhancements, but i dont expect miracles (the engine is probably to stubborn..). They definitely read the forums (grass, flight physics, etc all have been changed when the community asked), so they probably do know what we like and dont like about the current AI.

But things like 'not running into streets without checking if its safe first'/similar things are probably too hard to implant (first of all, how do you detect a street? then what? Peek around a corner? Do a few steps and sit down first? Shoot immediately or wait for the rest of the squad? etc etc, and i dont even know how to do the first step, or know if its possible to detect corners, or ...), even though it really is what the AI needs.

[Lustypooh 0]

Interesting thread guys. My favorite AI is the civilian AI. Stand up...lie down..run around...do the hokey pokey

Did anyone ever do suppression/morale scripts in OFP? For example, the morale of a soldier will decrease under fire especially under fire from multiple directions?

[bangtail 0]

Wow  ...not too realistic

Seriously: Makes me wonder what this game would be like if it were developed competently.

I would expect this statement to gather flames and people say "such smart AI is not possible with current hardware" but....

I've just come from a game of R6 Vegas and it totally kicks ArmAs ass in AI, graphics and sound. Yeah, I know it's a kiddies game but can you call me a kid at the age of 34? I've seen more games than most of ya

The troops take cover pretty well and the physics are amazing - you can blow everything up, shoot bricks off stacks etc. Yes, it needs a beefy gfx card and processor, and yes you are fighting in confined spaces but then we all had that issue with Half Life 2 and no-one mocked that game.

I love ofp but that was 6 years ago when my expectations were lower than they are now. Now, I just... can't love ArmA. Kiddies who want to flame - watch out, I bite.

I keep thinking there are so many more possibilities that have gone amiss, and that ArmA is just a tweaked OFP with the BAS stuff plugged on. Just wait til the UK media get their hands on this game for review, I shudder to think what they will say. PCZone is notorious for harsh reviews  

R6:Vegas : Puhlease! You do you realise there are significant technical differences between ArmA and R6:V? Don't even get me started! I'm not saying that ArmA's AI doesnt have problems, it does. But there is no comparing these 2 games. R6:V doesn't really have AI. It has well scripted firefights in VERY small areas. In R6:V the AI ALWAYS know where you are, even if they don't have LOS. Another cheap trick is that the AI knows when you are reloading (without LOS), so it will try to attack at that moment. It makes for dramatic gameplay, but I would hardly call it "good" AI.

ArmA is an entirely different animal. Sometimes when I am dead and spectating I actually watch the AI split up to attack one of my teammates from both sides, or backing off and waiting for reinforcements. Vehicles no longer storm in and try to "find" you, they try to use their range advantage and terrain. For the moment I just keep the AI away from large urban areas when I am designing missions. It's not ideal but they behave properly in that context. Im sure the pathfinding and LOS will be addressed shortly.

E

[5cent_at_NY 0]

Yup. i already have tried DAC and it was great. but it's different from what we wanted... just as you know. it's definitely a good thing that the community try to do their best for AI and something, but, i come to feels like it means BI doesn' need to care about AI (which most important and hardest part) anymore. because ppl thinks like "well, it's ok. the community will take care of it".

I believe they will make some enhancements, but i dont expect miracles (the engine is probably to stubborn..). They definitely read the forums (grass, flight physics, etc all have been changed when the community asked), so they probably do know what we like and dont like about the current AI.

But things like 'not running into streets without checking if its safe first'/similar things are probably too hard to implant (first of all, how do you detect a street? then what? Peek around a corner? Do a few steps and sit down first? Shoot immediately or wait for the rest of the squad? etc etc, and i dont even know how to do the first step, or know if its possible to detect corners, or ...), even though it really is what the AI needs.

agreed. looks like we have to wait until Game 2 comes out anyway...

btw, how do you think the AI in Game 2 will be? i know it's kind of off topic but, i just want hear from you. seems you know the situation about Arma and it's community... im so sick of ppl claims "this is realistic combat sim!" or "it's not for kids, man. f*ck off." etc... they always claims "stupid kids ruining this community". but i think they are one of the reason what keep us from move this community forward. cuz all they do is squash the ppl's opinion as BS... so i just wonder what if BIS find out this situation? are they feels good? and how affects to their next development? ...sorry for my bitchin'. well, let me hear if you don' mind. Thanks.

@Lustypooh

Im afraid i dunno the scripts or mods gives the feature like that, but suppression fire script is available. it's featured in SLX mod. just try it.

[znashin 0]

Quote[/b] ]they always claims "stupid kids ruining this community". but i think they are one of the reason what keep us from move this community forward. cuz all they do is squash the ppl's opinion as BS

Generally only when their opinions are BS. People are moaning about the ai and comparing it to games without any ai at all. The ai makes decisions. It isn't told to do anything except what the mission maker defines. This makes the ai very dynamic and gives even the simplest mission massive replayability.

Developement of games is a compromise. If all you want is cqb immersion and convincing looking ai then r6 is probably your best bet. That's all it is expected to do. If you want vehicles, battlefield ranges, 400km^2 islands and the most diversity of any computer game, then stick to arma. But don't expect the land to look like oblivion's, the ai to win chess tourneys, the cars to handle like gran tourismo or the planes to fly like ms flight simulator.

For me there's nothing in it. In six months time this game, standing on the shoulders of ofp, will be fantastic. You'll see if you stick with it or come back to it.

People aren't holding the developement back by taking contrary stances on peoples opinions. It's called debate. If all they do is say "that's BS", "it's not for kids" or "go play bf2" then ignore them. Don't just say "this is what's wrong with the game" though because it doesn't take a mastermind to see the ai, in it's current form, is struggling and hasn't come forward as much as alot of us had hoped.

[Baker65 0]

These are exactly the same problems still present in AA ... in 2007. That makes me wonder about how much time has been dedicated to these fundamental aspects during development.

I have the full game and I'd have to agree. It seems like it's almost the exact same OPF engine (i.e. armored units weigh about 100 pounds or so, AI isn't so bright, etc.) with newer graphics.

That said, I see the potential for great improvement with updates like we saw with OFP.

[5cent_at_NY 0]

@znashin

plz take your time to read this thread and plz, read carefully. yeah, ppl compared different game's AI. but noone here said they want AI shootin' gun like nuts. i don' wanna ArmA's AI to be such trigger-happy noobs either. what i want is AI that forces players to use tactics of real life combat... in short, i want the AI what those ppl who says "ArmA is military sim" is talking about. as few ppl in this thread noticed, we don' need to use any infantry combat tactics for playing ArmA. almost all we players need to kill the enemy AI is just wait 'till he runnin' into your aiming sight. i know that is any combat FPS game all about, afterall. and "how do we do to kill" is makes each game to differ from other, and each game has partly good points about realism. i think ppl who compaired other games with ArmA just pointed out that.

Im sure we are not askin for impossible, if ArmA has possiblity just like many ppl claims. Probably im too got used to OFP... im a big fun of OFP since it's demo came out and still enjoying make my own mod for it. but when ArmA came out and played it, i felt like "damn, is this a new expansion pack for OFP or what?". almost felt the same way as this topic starter. "This is a simulator"!? - oh come on, man. it is 2006! simulating what? "simulating" how U.S. soldier so dumb? (yup, just j/k )

Alright, i got your point. i'll try out new debate way...

[MamiyaOtaru 1]

All I can say is instead of this (these guys are in a firefight):

I'd like to see this (people using corners, doorways whatever):

as seen here:

Yeah, I know each cover point in that last pic is probably programmed in, and is something hard to do with a more general AI like ArmA's.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the ArmA AI do more to take cover, or at least concealment.  Less prone in the middle of streets, more leaning around corners and pressing into doorways.  That's make me happy.

So would free ice cream for life, just so you know I'm not assuming it's something trivial and easily done

[sorrow 0]

I think it is not the time to consider new features such as taking cover yet, I mean they need to spot each other properly first...

I was testing and creating some urban combat missions quite a lot lately aswell as playing other user mission and here is what I have to add.

it seems the ai is simply not finished yet, we are almost there, but...

There are just so many problems currently which do ruin the game completely but it should be reasonably easy to solve them.

There are big problems with ai in urban combat even besides the los bugs and pathfinding.

One big problem which ruins the game is

if your team enters intersecting street and there are enemies (even 1 enemy is enough) at some side (left or right) your team is going to die all the time.

here is why

it is the way your team moves and everyone looks at the same direction when they move. In Arma an ai unit can only look forward while he moves.

here is how to solve this, no need to code the matrix agents ai, just make the ai turn their head and strafe. problem solved. if BIS managed to create an AI which can find it's own way on the map then they surely can make it look not only forward. so why not make that last final step and make the ai actually move and look properly and strafe ?

watch this video it tells more than million words, it shows this problem and suicide attacks, no use of teamwork problem aswell.

I will continue this post later

[5cent_at_NY 0]

This vids well shows the one of the problems what i want to mention. Sadly, this is what those "real players" calls as "realism" or "tactical"...

damn... this is clearly understandable than my poor explanation. hope BIS will notice this.

nice work, sorrow. plz keep workin'

since most ppl seems tired/losing interest about ArmA's AI problem...

[znashin 0]

Quote[/b] ]if your team enters intersecting street and there are enemies (even 1 enemy is enough) at some side (left or right) your team is going to die all the time.

Yes that doesn't look too clever does it. I can't really see a way round it though. If you march bots round a corner in single file into the path of an enemy squad thats already prone and lined up to fire, the results are going to be predictable. Still though, the video does show that the ai isn't as responsive as it needs to be.

Quote[/b] ]Sadly, this is what those "real players" calls as "realism" or "tactical"...

Now you are just being ridiculous.

[NeMeSiS 11]

This vids well shows the one of the problems what i want to mention. Sadly, this is what those "real players" calls as "realism" or "tactical"...  

AH shuttup, if you would have read a few posts above then you would have seen that this is exactly what we were discussing.

The problem is that this is incredibly hard to fix if we cant detect building corners/streets/etc. (If im wrong about it, please tell me and hit me with a newspaper on the dead)

For now the only thing that can be done is not placing the AI in such a way around a corner without letting him move and not keeping him stare at the point where enemies walk by. Instead place a few groups with guard and dismissed waypoints all around the town. Although this isnt a real fix, but in this way such situations (almost) never occur.

[5cent_at_NY 0]

yeah, im just j/k. i just wanted see how you guys react if i do so irritate you just like funboys do to me.

looks like you guys still having interest about this topic. it's good.

let's back on the topic, shall we?

[fabrizio_t 58]

I think it is not the time to consider new features such as taking cover yet, I mean they need to spot each other properly first...

I was testing and creating some urban combat missions quite a lot lately aswell as playing other user mission and here is what I have to add.

it seems the ai is simply not finished yet, we are almost there, but...

There are just so many problems currently which do ruin the game completely but it should be reasonably easy to solve them.

There are big problems with ai in urban combat even besides the los bugs and pathfinding.

One big problem which ruins the game is

if your team enters intersecting street and there are enemies (even 1 enemy is enough) at some side (left or right) your team is going to die all the time.

here is why

it is the way your team moves and everyone looks at the same direction when they move. In Arma an ai unit can only look forward while he moves.

here is how to solve this, no need to code the matrix agents ai, just make the ai turn their head and strafe. problem solved. if BIS managed to create an AI which can find it's own way on the map then they surely can make it look not only forward. so why not make that last final step and make the ai actually move and look properly and strafe ?

watch this video it tells more than million words, it shows this problem and suicide attacks, no use of teamwork problem aswell.

I will continue this post later

Nice work Sorrow, your video shows some very typical Arma AI issues.

It's a shame that developers just don't care to drop a line here.

I hope they will get something fixed for the scheduled february "worldwide" release.

[mr reality 0]

That one video just about sums it up. The AI can't react to oppressive fire except to fire back, which as the video shows is a lost cause.

 

I made a mission in flashpoint many moons ago, it was a simple straight forward defend and attack mission. To cut a long story short the east forces advanced in 8 groups of 10. They were forced to retreat back 200 metres by 2 west groups of 8. That wasn't supprising, but what i saw next had me laughing out loud. The remaining disjointed groups advanced on the west again in much smaller numbers, basic knowledge tells you that they ain't gonna do too well this time round either. End result, east losses 80 west losses 3.

Here's a question for you guys.

If i have a west soldier im my squad and i give him a command, "watch 12 o'clock". If an east soldier is behind him and closing fast would the west soldier turn around to engage or will he be shot in the back.

If the answer is the latter then the AI definitley lacks situational awarness, which i'm sure is does anyhow. One of the major problems with commanding a squad is that YOU have to tell them to retreat to a safe spot instead of the soldier actually getting of his arse and moving himself.

I've also noticed that it might be better to have 3 fire options. The 2 current options are fire and fire at will. Having the squad on a "fire" command doesn't nessecerily mean they will engage an enemy (i experianced this when my squad members reported opfor but didn't engage). Having the squad on a "fire at will" command means they sometimes go walkabout hunting down a sighted enemy. I would much prefer a "fire on sight" command which would have the squad member stay in formation while engaging the enemy. Another more important point is when my squad is in a particular formation and i tell them to engage specific targets. On many occastions i only had around 75%- 80% squad effectivness when i was in wooded or bushy areas because some squad members were behind trees/bushes and wouldn't move to a fire position. I'm basing this information on my time spent in the demo and from what i've seen from the AI squad members and believe me i've seen some shit.

If these AI oddities can't be remedied then so be it, but if they can, then fix it dam you. I've spent the best part of 4 years playing Flashpoint and i honestly thought these problems would not be in ArmA. I'll have quit gaming before Game2 arrives (i'm getting on in years) and i realy wanted this game to be the pinnicle of my gaming life or is it because you just can't get a game better than Flashpoint  

[dan9of9 0]

edited

[fabrizio_t 58]

Quote[/b] ]If these AI oddities can't be remedied then so be it, but if they can, then fix it dam you. I've spent the best part of 4 years playing Flashpoint and i honestly thought these problems would not be in ArmA.

Can't agree more, that's also my point ... at least the bugs and issues SHOULD be sorted.

[Second 0]

From first moment i played OFP, i knew that it won't perform well in urban area: It's for open areas. If i want good urban area warfare experience, there are plenty of games focusing on that. CQB is big fault in OFP/ArmA's AI, but still there isn't better game (that i know of) that shows what the warfare is in wilderness and i dare to say that AI is designed to handle wilderness and i don't see big flaws in that: Maps can be too "open": no rocks, no ditches, nothing but couple of lonely trees + mission design for AI many times sucks + lack of suppression + bad quality of fortifications (for lacks in game's engine). But AI behaves good, still not as good as experienced human, who is probably replaying mission like tenth time as he/she couldn't finish the mission (as AI kept killing him) earlier

[fabrizio_t 58]

Bumping up, since patch is approaching

[NeMeSiS 11]

Bumping up, since patch is approaching

Patch will probably take another week or 2..

Anyways, ive been thinking, and wouldnt it be better for the AI to ignore the road 'paths' and just act like its normal ground when in combat mode? Its quite weird to see the AI lining up like that, but AFAIK we cant change that with .fsms so its something that BI should do..