An open letter to the ArmA community.

[Paco454 0]

I may not be the brightest guy around but I have to admit, I think I been taken for a ride by BIS.

Let me break this down into several categories, first the amount of time to given to the hype before it’s release, second the videos that were released and finally the interviews.

Time: The hype before this game was released went back years in advance. BIS spent years, it appears, making the game. Plenty of time to do it’s work. One would think after years of development the game would be polished, tested and optimized.

Pre- release videos and interviews: Apart for the few chopper videos the game looked polished. Even the intro videos showed vehicles turning on roads, no indication of any real problems, in fact it looked very good. Interviews made it also appear to be polished.

Now here’s the truth as I see it. The chez and German version are released and now the cats out of the bag. It’s clear to me that something is very wrong. It looks as if BIS intentionally mislead people about the state of the game. I draw attention first to the intro videos see when launching the game. There is no way those vehicles made the turns around the bends as they do in the video with AI behind the wheel. I’m sure the intro video was recorded using real people driving during a multi player session. The AI in game when following way points stop at every way point then continue on their way, so the AI were not driving in those videos. Next the flight models. How could BIS see fit to release the game when chopper controls were so bad, not to mention the fixed wing aircraft which were almost impossible to fly. (Seemly fixed in v1.02 yet still some issues with controls)

This brings into focus now a very long list of bugs the game had when it was released. The BIS bug reporting WIKI and the BIS forum is chalk full of complaints and people reporting all kinds of bugs. Collision problems, AI walking through walls, other AI issues, sound problems, video problems, controller problems just to name a few are among a very, very long list of hundreds of bugs.

I’m having trouble understanding that BIS wasn’t aware of all these problems given the years of development, moreover, the fact really none of these issues were seen in any of the videos, although some issues were seen and it was assumed those would be corrected which evidently were not fixed at it’s release. Collision issues are so bad some AI tanks, when bumping into each other, can send tanks flying 200 feet in the air. BIS can’t tell me they didn’t know about these problems.

From this information I conclude that BIS intentionally released ArmA in beta form as part of a money grab. Intentionally lead people to believe the game was in good working order through videos and interviews, when in fact it was still in early beta and was absolutely bug ridden and did very little in house testing, then setup a bug reporting WIKI and used the people who bought the chez and German version as unwilling beta testers to work out the bugs.

A far as I’m concerned, I do believe the community, if it had been informed there were staffing issues or other problems with the game in which it wasn’t feasible for in house testing that they informed the community they would release the game for sale as a beta and then asked the community to help work out the bugs, I could understand and even support, however this method of misleading everybody is unacceptable, and I think a class action suit should be filed against BIS for intentionally misleading the owners of the German and Chez versions. These owners should be given a full refund and then compensated for being involuntary, unwilling beta testers. There is no excuse after 6 years of development for something like this to happen. They have simply mislead everybody to highest possible degree and then took their money under cloak of deception and then setup a forum and WIKI to use as "their" platform to work out it’s problems at the expense of paying customers.

I will certainly think twice before buying another BIS product. Don't get me wrong I like the game, I just don't like the BS.

PACO454

Unwilling, Forced Beta Tester.

[dm 9]

Sigh...

What BI have done in their advertising and PR campaign is no different to what any other company does when selling their games. Infact BI uses purely ingame footage for their PR, unlike some games which use FMV for their advertising...

As for

Quote[/b] ]The hype before this game was released went back years in advance. BIS spent years, it appears, making the game. Plenty of time to do it’s work. One would think after years of development

I'll repeat myself for the billionth time..

Quote[/b] ]Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Why does everyone automaticlly assume that ArmA development started the second BI was finished with OFP:R.

ArmA as we know it only really came into existance in late 2005, infact I'm more inclined to suggest that in its current state it probably didnt come into existance until early 2006.

Look at it like this: in mid 2005 (at E3 or whatever expo it was) BI announced ArmA. Look at the screenshots of ArmA back then, it was the OFP:E engine brought back to PC. Look at ArmA now, it's totally different and looks a bit like Game2 was starting to look like ~10 months ago. What can we deduce from this? We can deduce this: ArmA as it was when it was announced, is NOT the same ArmA as we have now. Therefore, ArmA we have now is <1 year old. Not bad when you consider the dev time for most other games (excluding the bullshit movie tie ins and all that other crap).

...

[Paco454 0]

Sigh...

What BI have done in their advertising and PR campaign is no different to what any other company does when selling their games. Infact BI uses purely ingame footage for their PR, unlike some games which use FMV for their advertising...

As for

Quote[/b] ]The hype before this game was released went back years in advance. BIS spent years, it appears, making the game. Plenty of time to do it’s work. One would think after years of development

I'll repeat myself for the billionth time..

Quote[/b] ]Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Why does everyone automaticlly assume that ArmA development started the second BI was finished with OFP:R.

ArmA as we know it only really came into existance in late 2005, infact I'm more inclined to suggest that in its current state it probably didnt come into existance until early 2006.

Look at it like this: in mid 2005 (at E3 or whatever expo it was) BI announced ArmA. Look at the screenshots of ArmA back then, it was the OFP:E engine brought back to PC. Look at ArmA now, it's totally different and looks a bit like Game2 was starting to look like ~10 months ago. What can we deduce from this? We can deduce this: ArmA as it was when it was announced, is NOT the same ArmA as we have now. Therefore, ArmA we have now is <1 year old. Not bad when you consider the dev time for most other games (excluding the bullshit movie tie ins and all that other crap).

...

Undestood, and stand corrected.

PACO454

[sickboy 13]

If you ask me, ... 505 choose to release the game when it's finished.. in 2 months, while the CZ and GER publishers wanted the game to sell around Christmas despite the state... That's what I think, but who am i

[adumb 0]

Dont you have some trees to hug?

*Looks at signature*

[j w 0]

Dont you have some trees to hug?

*Looks at signature*

Don't you have something important to add to this thread?

--------------------

Yes, I am with DMX here, since many, as he said, belives that ArmA was started when OFP was finished.

But, if I can ask some questions back:

1. You are complaining about the flightmodel: Since when is Armed Assault a flightsim?

2. Ok, maybe ArmA does have bugs, and maybe alot of them: Mention a bugfree game that is superperfect in all aspects?

3. Come on, they're running a company, not a sandbox. All companies makes their product look extra good by not showing the downsides: Think of it, if you buy something, either, it doesn't have functions that the same product by another brand has, not the same weight, controls etc, but you buy it anyways, and keep quiet about it. Why not the same for Armed Assault, because I'm sure they'll fix it in further patches?

4. You think something is wrong by setting up a Wiki for reporting bugs: Sure, maybe it's better to have 6 trillion threads saying "OMG, I've found a bug!!"?

5. If you don't like it: Don't play it, do it better yourself, or basicly stop whining.

No offence, but that's just my point of view.

If you do not wish to answer my question, it's OK

[Guest]

at the end of the day.... ARMA is out... and we have it. No more waiting, no more speculating.

IMO the look of ARMA is amazing, the fact that the map size is x amount bigger than other games makes this game above and beyond whats out there. As far as bugs go.... these days we have the chance to patch games. Therefore games will often have bugs. yeah its frustrating..... my ARMA crashes after 5 minutes almost everytime i play..not just the game but my whole computer. I have pretty current SLI dual core system... but I dont seem to really care now because I figure it will get fixed with time. The first time I played OFP was on the xbox . For me it was a great game and a whole new experience which I can never top with any other game. I dont know the dates, but ofp had been out along time ago. Im sure it had bad bugs and other issues. But look at how huge the community is after all that time. At some point ARMA will run solid. And it will probally be better than any other game released in terms of the potential for modding and editing missions to have anything happen that you can dream of....limited to a certain extent... I dont see any other game existing on the market which allows you to script and edit missions like it is doing. please let me know if there is one similar cause id also like to try it.

What im trying to say is ARMA has huge potential.... and game 2 will most likely be the big next step..... but until that comes out we have ARMA which is using dx9. This is better than staying with ofp until game 2 is released. just my opinion on the matter...

[Taxidriver 0]

While I also don't understand while after the succes of OFP, there apperently wasn't more development done on ArmA by now (perhaps Codemasters ran with the dollars?). I do understand publishers wanting to get the game out now (ethical no, logical yes). But filing a class action suit against about the only developer who is really serious about making realistic teamwork oriented games, doesn't look like the smartest thing to do from the viewpoint of a realism/teamwork fan. Apperently it is already difficult to get games published for this market and filings suits certainly won't improve that.

[franze 196]

Things like this should be in ArmA General. Moving.

[Kevlar2007 1]

I agree with you Paco454.

But BIS is not alone here, almost all games I bought in recent time were screwed at the begining, but ArmA is far the most buggiest I had till today, sad but I must admit that.

[adumb 0]

Things like this should be in ArmA General. Moving.

No, things like this should be locked and the author banned. some of you moderators need to harden the fuck up. I'm so sick of coming here and all i see is twats bitching about bad how ArmA is. ohh cry me a fucking river.

I would have loved to seen you new moderators put a stop to all that. fix the troll problem. but i somehow doubt i will. all I've seen you do is moderate a photography thread.

I want Hellfish6 back

[Kevlar2007 1]

Things like this should be in ArmA General. Moving.

No, things like this should be locked and the author banned. some of you moderators need to harden the fuck up. I'm so sick of coming here and all i see is twats bitching about bad how ArmA is. ohh cry me a fucking river.

I would have loved to seen you new moderators put a stop to all that. fix the troll problem. but i somehow doubt i will. all I've seen you do is moderate a photography thread.

I want Hellfish6 back

I think you should watch your language a little bit.

I think freedom of speech is allright today. If you don't want to read this than go and play Arma or read something else and cool down a little bit!

[olemissrebel 0]

Just because you don't agree with what he wrote doesn't mean others feel the same way as you.

[Shifty-16AAB- 0]

Things like this should be in ArmA General. Moving.

No, things like this should be locked and the author banned. some of you moderators need to harden the fuck up. I'm so sick of coming here and all i see is twats bitching about bad how ArmA is. ohh cry me a fucking river.

I would have loved to seen you new moderators put a stop to all that. fix the troll problem. but i somehow doubt i will. all I've seen you do is moderate a photography thread.

I want Hellfish6 back  

chopper reid says: get a brain, arma players!

if a game is full of bugs, then the customer has every right to complain, dude.  

[PeterEyres 0]

I am quite disappointed with the game so far. It is riddled with bugs, and I see no real improvement or innovation on the old flashpoint engine other than the graphical engine and the detailed Island.

The graphical engine however does have some serious LOD, draw and textures issues. But when it works, I reckon it is the most beautiful game in existence.

Many of the bugs are showstoppers IMHO (no sound issues, the graphical glitches, pretty poor AI, CTD's). I am confident that BIS will fix most of the problems with future patches, to get to a level of stablility seen in flashpoint 1.96. And there is also the community, present as usual waiting to get their hands on the modding tools. The Modders turn a pretty barebones game into the best game of its genre ever created.

There is massive potential here, I will be watching with interest to see if BIS follow up on their good reputation and rescue this game.

[JdB 151]

Things like this should be in ArmA General. Moving.

No, things like this should be locked and the author banned. some of you moderators need to harden the fuck up. I'm so sick of coming here and all i see is twats bitching about bad how ArmA is. ohh cry me a fucking river.

I would have loved to seen you new moderators put a stop to all that. fix the troll problem.

The author went into great detail about what he thought was wrong with ArmA. Sure some of it was due to misinformation which was corrected by DeadmeatXM2, but others are valid points, and in no way trolling. Plenty of gamedevelopers ban their customers for not being positive all the way about their games, but that's their problem. As long as it's in a polite way it should be ok to post it.

Banning members that point to valid problems doesn't make the problems go away. What is your next move? Gag all beta-testers and players because they might some day point out a bug?

[franze 196]

No, things like this should be locked and the author banned. some of you moderators need to harden the fuck up. I'm so sick of coming here and all i see is twats bitching about bad how ArmA is. ohh cry me a fucking river.

I would have loved to seen you new moderators put a stop to all that. fix the troll problem. but i somehow doubt i will. all I've seen you do is moderate a photography thread.

I want Hellfish6 back

Compared to the constant whining, complaining, and foul language (which you seem big on yourself) from other folks, a cool-headed critical point of view like this is a walk in the park.

Just like we don't insta-ban you for being critical of forum moderation. As per the usual excuse, "nobody is forcing you to play ArmA" - likewise, nobody is forcing you to read the posts of constant whining and complaining. It clearly doesn't seem to bother you that much given that you take the time to read these complaints.

[fubarno1 0]

I can agree with Paco's views on the game, but I also echo the views of others that no game will ever get released bug free, the problem as I see it is 2 fold.

1. BIS released ArmA as a shippable product when in fact it is not, there are glaring problems in the game that are so obvious that BIS has got to have decided to deliberately ignore them for it to be released, maybe this is one of the downfalls of developers trying to release a product without the financial backing that a mainstream publisher can give (no room to extend development time beyond what they can afford) so they have to cut some large corners to make it as cost effective as possible, and start bringing in the much needed funds ASAP, most of the bugs problems are not actual showstoppers but they are enough to make some purchasers (me included) of ArmA realise that maybe this game is not as good as they expected it to be.

2. Maybe BIS didn't think it was ready, but with finding the distributors (those that have shown an interest) breathing down their necks for a gold copy asap before Christmas Sales, BIS was left with no alternative but to give something and keep their fingers crossed that it don't come back and bite them on their arses.

For those of us that have played OFP from 1st release have basically been spoilt with all the addons and modifications that the "geeks" in the community modding world have bestowed upon us for our continued gaming pleasure, with having these free gifts like FFUR, UKF, BAS ...etc..etc ArmA had a lot to live up to, I know I expected a more polished product from the developers and really expected a better line-up of released addons than the piss poor crap we have now, We have a harrier that has no STOL/VTOL, no eject sequence, that even the AI have difficulty flying that they can't engage any enemy and is so bad they don't want to try and get it back on the deck and we don't have an OPFOR counterpart for it either, there are issues with nearly every addon included in ArmA to one degree or another, some major issues with the island itself and although we keep hearing "Oh they will be fixed in time" but we cannot just look at how things matured in OFP and expect the same process with ArmA, things may have changed enough at BIS, (different development team) that makes it difficult to give the same type of service we received with OFP who knows maybe time will tell?

I would say having an island that looks pretty is not enough for most of the old time OFP players, as lets face it if your in a good mission and in a firefight from hell who the fuck has the time to admire how good the island looks, looking pretty comes low on my list of priorities, a good working island with a variety of good different addons, good AI reactions and control, someone available who can offer advise to a "total thicky" on a particular step in mission building, seeing that mission work both local and on-line I would have wet patch on my pants every day

Steps i think BIS could do to improve the negative feeling to-wards ArmA.

1. Sort the frikkin engine out.

2. Sort the addons out and put the missing features in.

3. Release the modding tools so the "geeks" can get to work (this is probably the thing that would help ArmA the most)

4. Get your arses in the forum with news updates as to how things are progressing, whats planned to be fixed in the next update, what features your considering on adding.

5. Arrange a time where we (The community) can get on-line and have a chat with all your developers to discuss our likes and dislikes and what we would like to see added (I'm sure no-one would complain if you took a few hours out of a day to do this).

6. sack the frikkin twat who designed the ArmA Campaign and replace him with the one who designed Cold War and Resistance (If its the same bloke biotch slap him for doing such a poor job)

I find myself going back to OFP more each day

Notice to the modding "geeks"

Its just my sign of affection to-wards you guys, without you some of us would still have only the virgin OFP to keep our imagination alive, you guys help us dream!

[CanadianTerror 0]

I understand that games come with bugs (although this seems to be chalk full). What gets me is the amount of time spent on the game itself vs the amount of time spent taking screenshots of ACU from every angle imaginable.

People seem to be harder on the guys who make free mods than they are on BIS though. Last time i heard, game developers got paid for their work and should be open to critical comments.

[adumb 0]

No, things like this should be locked and the author banned. some of you moderators need to harden the fuck up. I'm so sick of coming here and all i see is twats bitching about bad how ArmA is. ohh cry me a fucking river.

I would have loved to seen you new moderators put a stop to all that. fix the troll problem. but i somehow doubt i will. all I've seen you do is moderate a photography thread.

I want Hellfish6 back

Compared to the constant whining, complaining, and foul language (which you seem big on yourself) from other folks, a cool-headed critical point of view like this is a walk in the park.

Just like we don't insta-ban you for being critical of forum moderation. As per the usual excuse, "nobody is forcing you to play ArmA" - likewise, nobody is forcing you to read the posts of constant whining and complaining. It clearly doesn't seem to bother you that much given that you take the time to read these complaints.

No PR? no WL? holy crap! what is wrong with you new guys? are you scared of all the new power or something?

"nobody is forcing you to read the posts of constant whining and complaining." you know I've been coming to this forum for the past 4 years now?

I mean thats it? thats the big fix you have planned? stop coming here if you don't like how crappy its gotten.? maybe you should go and look at some of the older ofp threads and see how this forum needs to be moderated.

I'm sorry i've gotten to pissed at you. but this forum has gotten so bad that i don't even wanna mod this game. < sadly im not alone on that one.

[oyman 0]

I agree with Sniper Skull, all these useless topics are causing my loading times of the forums to shoot up over 25% over the last 2 months.

[franze 196]

No PR? no WL? holy crap! what is wrong with you new guys? are you scared of all the new power or something?

"nobody is forcing you to read the posts of constant whining and complaining." you know I've been coming to this forum for the past 4 years now?

I mean thats it? thats the big fix you have planned? stop coming here if you don't like how crappy its gotten.? maybe you should go and look at some of the older ofp threads and see how this forum needs to be moderated.

I'm sorry i've gotten to pissed at you. but this forum has gotten so bad that i don't even wanna mod this game. < sadly im not alone on that one.

You know I've been coming to this forum for 5 years now?

Regardless of your point of view, whether you love ArmA or hate it, you do have the privilege to air your opinion here.

I'd like to think that this community is open enough that we can discuss and evaluate all points of view without having to add PRs or WLs. Sure, there's the occasional trash-talker who we try to deal with, but by the time we find out about it, some member has already given them some verbal humiliation. Usually that's enough; sometimes it isn't.

If you want a PR, I'd be happy to give you one - I've already handed some out. Frankly, I think this is an issue for PM's, as it pertains to your opinion of how this forum is moderated, not the topic at hand.

[-duke- 0]

If you ask me, ... 505 choose to release the game when it's finished.. in 2 months, while the CZ and GER publishers wanted the game to sell around Christmas despite the state... That's what I think, but who am i

I agree with this 110%.

If BIS hadn't given at least partial access to this game prior to 2007, we'd see a forum full of p1ssed off members who can't believe that BIS can't hit a release date.

Ya there are issues but this isn't EA, BIS will work with the community to fix them.

[Paco454 0]

Dont you have some trees to hug?

*Looks at signature*

Don't you have something important to add to this thread?

--------------------

Yes, I am with DMX here, since many, as he said, belives that ArmA was started when OFP was finished.

But, if I can ask some questions back:

1. You are complaining about the flightmodel: Since when is Armed Assault a flightsim?

2. Ok, maybe ArmA does have bugs, and maybe alot of them: Mention a bugfree game that is superperfect in all aspects?

3. Come on, they're running a company, not a sandbox. All companies makes their product look extra good by not showing the downsides: Think of it, if you buy something, either, it doesn't have functions that the same product by another brand has, not the same weight, controls etc, but you buy it anyways, and keep quiet about it. Why not the same for Armed Assault, because I'm sure they'll fix it in further patches?

4. You think something is wrong by setting up a Wiki for reporting bugs: Sure, maybe it's better to have 6 trillion threads saying "OMG, I've found a bug!!"?

5. If you don't like it: Don't play it, do it better yourself, or basicly stop whining.

No offence, but that's just my point of view.

If you do not wish to answer my question, it's OK

In response JW

#1) OFP had flight model and so does ArmA. My point was how could they release it knowing just how bad the control was. I never said it was flightsim. I can't even get BIS to respond to the multi joystick issue with a simple yes or no.

#2) The level of bugs is exceeding to the point I question why they would release it knowing what we know already. I agree no game is bug free so where do you draw the line, at what point do question the level and number of bugs and treat it as unacceptable? I can accept a game with bugs in fact all my games have bugs but not to this exceedingly high level. That is why I question BIS's motivation. That is just my opinion.

#3) You make a valid point. "All companies makes their product look extra good." At what point do you say their misleading you? I have no question they'll fix the problems with it, I'm simply pointing out they knew in advance just how bad it was and should have either waited to work out the bugs or simply asked for help from the community, to which thousands of OFP players would have beat a path to their door to offer help and assistance. I would have been the first to offer help testing.

#4) I think the WIKI would have been there away so you do make a valid point. Nevertheless BIS is using it as their platform to work out the bugs. On the other hand the level of bugs is exceedingly high to an unacceptable level and the WIKI is being used. I suppose it just a matter of opinion as to what the WIKI is being used for. To work out bugs, or a place place for BIS to work out bugs it should've worked out before, using it's paying customers as beta testers because of the lak of in house testing.

#5) I never said I didn't like it. I just don't like the BS that came with it. I'm a mission maker for OFP and now ArmA.

Id' like thank everybody for their opinion but telling not to complain or whine or find a tree to hung or find some river to (Wink Wink) in won't help things. It seems evey year there all less and less PC games, I mean good PC games, sim types that are not too buggy to use on the PC. I remember years ago, PC games being released at a stagger rate of 5 per day, now were lucky to have 4 to 5 good PC games a year. Granted there are plenty of games out there but most are spells and magic/pay to play or are console ported junk. A game like ArmA breaths freshness into a dull PC market. I've played so much BF2, I'm totally bored with it now, no matter how modded it is. My point is, with such a dull PC game market, to have ArmA be so bug ridden takes all the fun out of an already dull situation.

Thankyou for the responses.

PACO454

[chris330 0]

I do not agree with Sniper Skull. People have a right to reply about a product they have paid for. Freedom of speech was bought at an incredibly high price by folk the world over and everyone has the right to exercise it. Also the original poster stated his views with clarity and reason. There is nothing wrong with the fashion in which this thread was started.

However.... to those who have paid for the game and are frustrated with it please be patient. It is certain that Bohemia will back this game for a very long time to come. They are not the biggest company out there from what I am told by others. The fact that their games require a certain level of intelligence and maturity in the customer for them to even consider buying it also means the size of their audience is reduced from no-brainer first person shooter games which look pretty.

Therefore they must have a way of raising money for the development to continue. Placed in a tight spot such as this it is quite reasonable that they decided to release the game now to raise funds to allow further patches and upgrades to continue.

To anyone who doubts the game's potential I would simply recommend that you play Operation Flashpoint at version 1.00 and then play it again at 1.75 when resistance was released. The improvement in quality of player and AI collision detection in buildings here was phenomenal. I'm certain Armed Assault will go on to vastly supercede anything that even Flashpoint ever offered. So try not to get too upset, although I do understand your predicament. Try to find something to take your mind off it for a while.

Oh and Happy New Year!!...