Persistent Universe

[thrush213 0]

2 things come to mind...lag and codes

[grayace 2]

may be 3 things have to come into mind,

*Saveable MP game feature

*Drop-in MP game feature

*Inter-op server feature

these 3 are all we need to create a massive persistent universe.. (almost even the 1st one is enough already but.. you know)

and also if we can have a Interoperable(linkable) servers (may be on one larger rentable server, if XP can hibernate why not OFP can "transplant" a game to another server??)

In this case each "team sized" server would be a living single island/country with Military Bases consturcted and new units purchased by Force Commander, where Force structure can be planned by Deputy Force Commander and where trainings take place between Armored, Mechanized, Combined Arms battallion/company commanders, and of couse where players "live" with friends, This part defines the "peace time" of course

Now for the combat/battle aspect, a battle time can be arranged by both sides with maximum participation. Battle zone can be totally different from the "homeland" which would simulate our forces as a "Rapid Response Force" and this would be a nice reason for there is no Attrition problems or Militias. and also this would prevent destruction of bases/sites at homeland as well as transferiing such emplacements could cause server side problems... (and also use of nukes could be permissable because of damages would be non-persistent)

Briefly, during peace time, construct your homeland with mates, organize your forces, conduct exercises with newly bought vehicles, and during war time, gather your comrades, vehicles, and hit the battleground. Winner will gain credits to buy new vehicles and develop, Loser will gain experience and lessons to win next match...

To prevent save editing, whole game can be stored at a independent site like a BIS sponsored server, and for transferring vehicles, Force Commander could choose the list for "Invasion"

[x582gr51 0]

There 2 things i want to discuss here

First the Distributed aspect of the game over HPC. There is no need to get the game over a disk array and then distributing it over needed clusters.

Instead you install the game over a master node wich will use an LmHost list to find the clusters or diskless nodes then it will distribute tasks to the not or less busy cpu's.

The diskless nodes or clusters are just rackmount servers with motherboard, cpu's and memory sticks. They don't need to have an OS installed. They get awaken via tcp boot protocol and report status to the master node wich will throw jobs at them. There is to consider that this is usualy used for renderfarms not interactive gaming.

But this above concept make one to think about latencies due to passing datas over PCI and then over TCP/IP wich can cause slow transfers and/or bottlenecks.

A better method is having many cpu's connected on the same circuit board not many circuits boards over a network but these servers are very costly over 100 000$ US each so i don't think many ArmA players will afford such monsters.

But a support for dual/quad/12/36 cpu's and developping a fully dedicated server (hardware and drivers) fit for ArmA may be an affordable solution.

Second, now this is about islands well there is an *island*.pbo do not remember the name but it's like 3 continents in the same*.pbo where 3 sides can reside as for now i only see it as resistence (cpu ai's) are forced once in a while to use a warping zone and/or a stargate in order to travel from one island to another and attack players sides randomly.

This Parallel Universe is very promising and i will do everything possible to support the idea.

Keep going and have fun on this project!!!

And oh yeah specops can act as recons and they usualy try to do it blending in the civilians crowds, risky but it usualy work.

[grayace 2]

wow you got into technical detail pretty much, nice to hear tough but keeping things simple would be more "beneficial" otherwise they will be only fantasies

I think having a "save MP game" feature, or even dumping the ongoing mission to a seperate mission file and labeling it with date and time would solve everything in this problem I think..

Drop-in game will definately make things to run easier and smoothly (rather than "save"/quit/re-organize/load to let recently connected players in) for example if no Drop-in gaming is available but a save option at hand, then hourly breaks can be implemented to get more players in to "universe" each hour

Interoperability is a cunning trick I have read in this forums before, I think that the most beneficial/most simple way to use it is each server is an island/country of a whole SIDE+CIV, no others/enemies. On this island like in CTI missions a Force Commander, a Deputy Force Commander(s) and Squad Captains would conduct peace time work like exercises and construction of mil bases to produce combat vehicles.

For combat, a scripted mission can be generated with already available codes of resistance on a different server for both sides (up to 64 players) on a predefined island (non-homeland). both side's Force commanders will choose the units/equipment to be sent to combat area (add to pool trigger?)

And missions can be different than CTI basis, especially for lesser player amounts, CSAR, Infiltration / Hold the fortification (where one side has superior AI support) and etc...

[x582gr51 0]

Things have to be simple for the players not the dev team neither for the community members that want to push things forward.

Limitations are made to be broken and finding the how-to get arround them isn't an easy task.

So even if you save games and such there is still something about the amount of ai's and if each players are a squad leader that can lead infinite amount of ai's. There is the enemy resistence will they be lame to reduce cpu time or they will act as professional soldiers and how many of them will be send against human players side 6-12-16-24...

This parallel universe gonna be very cpu intensive and we already know that an RTS RWS CNC CTI and friends use a lot of time and memory.

It won't be different when ArmA will be released AI's need power and if they don't get it they still do everything to get cpu time and memory space.

There is already virtualy no limits on the amount of ai's in a mission except for hardware limits.

I think it's a good thing to discuss about hardware issues when it come to serving such type of mission. If you remember well there was lot of hardware talk when CTI's got released.

It's better to talk about it now then having ppl that just bought a new server to host this specific mission and then find out that they can't host it until they get the proper hardware.

well it's just my though or fantasy, multiprocessor support is needed for a parallel universe with virtualy an infinite amount of ai's resistence and civilians plus cars and objects to simulate lifes.

This last thing for now is a fantasy of a script with a database of objects/addons that can be used with a random in order to simulate life.

Like Furia said the only thing that is a priority is a never ending mission that will continue and evolve even if there is no humans players connected. This look like an engine issue to me  and it now up to the dev team to implement it or not.

Anyway, there might be a way to script a fake human player so the server can keep going with the mission.

This great idea of parallel universe is about to render this topic a never ending discussion and it's all good

[grayace 2]

about Hardware requirements, since the "WAR" and "LIFE" gameflows will be seperated from each other this will significantly reduce the CPU workload while keeping the features as vast as possible.

I thought that 32 players (x12 AI) sized server could be the limit for "Life" part of game, which would be made dynamic by player inputs into this "island" for example each human player can get a role in this part of game other than being a squad captain, like they can manage a region of an island... constructing buildings facilities to increase output of island to get access to better weapons as well as creating a nice country side... think as if its Virtual version of Civilization!?(game) which could be fed by new 3D domestic/militaristic buildings by addon makers (I would like to construct "statue of liberty" in my town, what a view! while other may like to construct Nuclear Power Plant)

you say you dont have anyone in your team who likes to RPG but just war and wants only resources for their "toy" needs! well then your team is another model then, like USSR consists of hardliners, have you ever visited island Kolgujev??

Or you say your team is mostly anti-war players, well you are always able to conduct your small unit action in a appropriate "war mission"

During war time, a larger server might be needed for 2x32 players plus AI for massive combat, and these can be rented for a low price, there are lots of things can be implemented in war aspect of game since its the main part.

again briefly, this is bunch of ideas are very nice and addictive for those of us who like to RPG in a modern military warfare (and also Game 2 is on this path) have a nice country to construct, travel on, work on, exercise and even better TO FIGHT FOR

if this kind of play is sponsored by BIS or another host which will keep all the "universes" and provide combat missions/map for those who have enough equipment and manpower, this would prevent cheating by save editing or unfair modifications and also it can serve a credit system where players' credit flow can be recorded (war gains, expenses...) one more thing of course, this player record would also keep ID/Passport of player in case player wants to "visit" other servers(islands/countries) than the homeland server to see what they have developed and how is their country..

[x582gr51 0]

I see your point but still need more cpu power to build and run your dreamland and it will need more and more if sadly you have to defend it.

But one good and well managed country shouldn't need to defend by using offensive methods and neither war others instead rather use diplomats and peacekeepers in extreme occasions. There shouldn't be any conflicts at all if you think of it.

So the idea to build a beautiful country in order to have something of high value to defend appear to be very weird to me and almost irrational no wonder why progress are slow with that kind of attitudes, might keep the discussion on the topic wich is Parallel Universe not Empire Earth.

[grayace 2]

I see your point but still need more cpu power to build and run your dreamland and it will need more and more if sadly you have to defend it.

But one good and well managed country shouldn't need to defend by using offensive methods and neither war others instead rather use diplomats and peacekeepers in extreme occasions. There shouldn't be any conflicts at all if you think of it.

So the idea to build a beautiful country in order to have something of high value to defend appear to be very weird to me and almost irrational no wonder why progress are slow with that kind of attitudes, might keep the discussion on the topic wich is Parallel Universe not Empire Earth.

first, please read again, battles will not take place on homeland so those domestic buildings will not create a load on CPU, battles and combat missions will take place in another maps, if you're asking then whats the point of homeland, answer is homeland is where you produce your combat equipment to add in team pool and conduct exercises with friends... 8 or 16 players plus a 1000 buildings wont be so heavy I guess, this is what OFP engine designed for..

creating a beatiful country is a sub-option to create a immensive game play, but it doesnt mean that its necessary..

[x582gr51 0]

I will answer you in PM and take all the time needed to solve the issue in a calm and easy as well as civilized and positive method.

[grayace 2]

PM received and read

Sure we will handle the situation in a civilized manner (reaching to digital battleaxe)

[robert(uk) 0]

well it's just my though or fantasy, multiprocessor support is needed for a parallel universe with virtualy an infinite amount of ai's resistence and civilians plus cars and objects to simulate lifes.

Maybe you could check out the specs for an MMORPG server like EQ2 or Asheron's Call. Though of course, their enemies are Random Encounters so it probably wouldn't give you much of an idea...

[I_LOVE_MY_M4 0]

theres some great ideas here guys but just think of the players. I know most people will buy the game and play online to fight. Who will want to go into a war game to play house. You need to think of all the time you'd need to spend on all these great ideas and how many people would actually play it. I love the persistent universe idea but more action would probly go over well. Theres plenty of MMO's out there and this isn't one of them

[chipper 0]

in pcformat magazine they said ArmA will support persistant CTI servers.

[Metal Heart 0]

Yeah, like that's new information. Obviously you can have persistent CTI with JIP, and JIP is like a year old news.

[Scrub 0]

Hey, let it be new to some people. We have lives too ya know.

It's great that persistant CTI is a hardcoded gametype. Hope that includes the 'housekeeping' duties like delayed dead body removal, ability for salvage, occaisonally verifying and/or saving the server contents and status for long-term stability. I hate code that remains to trip up something later.

[kernriver 4]

Do you think persistant CTI could be something like WWII online?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Do you think persistant CTI could be something like WWII online?

On a much smaller scale, yes, kind of...

[Metal Heart 0]

Maybe if somebody programmed a strategy game and then only the invidual battles were played with ArmA you could have something like WW2online I guess. It would only be accessible to squads though because it would be impossible to organize with random rambos joining and leaving.

[joshfox0 0]

persistant CTI is extreamly good news especially if you can then have persistant CTI + addons which i presume you can.

[sniper pilot 36]

Heh my friend and I did this thing with OFP, we call it the "RPG version"(dont ask) we dont do it online but on one pc. We choose sides, say hes west, im east... We set Resistance to side with nobody, and place 63 groups around key points of the map.Then we place 1 unit of our side down w/ one vehicle on anywhere on the map (usualy Tonal). We start off with 1000cp or Command Points. With that you can order more units, vehicles, Better trained units, Airstrikes and so on. You can earn CP by taking cities or bases. We parade around the map taking towns from the local HD milita untill we have all the cities, (We may have already met up and fought a few battles against eachother, the other player thats not his turn, relying on the game's AI) SO then it goes to a Risk kind of game, where we fight three ways with the militia, of the controll of the whole map. We can run out of CP (which means our government will not supply us as long as we are doing horrable.) you get the idea... So this whole stuff is awsome...