The Sniper

[PhantomStalker 0]

in op flash I was co founder and sniper trainer of a group called Red Storm. 90% of my game time in OFP was as a sniper. What I would like this post to be is sort of an end all discussion of the art and tactics of the sniper in op flash and what we hope it will be like in op flash 2.

Ive been a sniper fan my whole life and OFP is the most realistic portrayal of what it is like being a sniper i've ever seen in a game. The only other game more realistic was the original SWAT, as they had all aspects of the actual shooting, but that was police sniping so 95% of what a sniper does was not there.

The first thing I would like to see in ofp is a more realistic ghillie suit.... The one in OFP worked well but seemed more like how the viet cong just stuffed branches in their clothes in viet nam, then an actual ghillie suit.

The ability to actually change your ghillie suit to the terrain type would also be amazing. I am sure it could be done quite easily and would make it more realistic as snipers do put material from the terrain on their suit wherever they are, its not the same thing for everything.

More factors such as the wind and maybe even how clean the gun is would be a neat feature to make it more realistic as well. I cant think of anything more right now, but all of you snipers out there lets do some discussing.

[Ryujin 0]

It would be nice to have deployable bipods that would help help stabalize the gun and could be deployed on windows and walls ect. besides that I'd like nicer ballistics for all guns or just sniper rifles if adding it for every thing would use to much CPU. plus animations for the chambering a new round with a bolt action rifle. Also AI shouldn't be able locate you after one shot unless they looking right at you or you are somewhat close. It would be cool if your shot echoed in certain spot making you hader to find!

[PhantomStalker 0]

When I made my sniper missions as a test for my sniper recruits if you killed the colonel in one shot they couldnt locate you. If you had to make a second they zeroed in on your location and fired. I never experienced uber see all AI, but then again the maps I made and played from my friends had the AI soldiers in various states of awareness, thats really the most realistic way.

This worked well because if they had to take a second shot... they were not going to pass the mission. More then half that tried the mission got lost and couldnt even find the target for hours...

I just completed my basic airborne and pathfinder training for VASF and during it I was out in the open and about 30 feet to my 10 o'clock was a platoon of soldiers on patrol... I was like "OH SHIT" and ducked into a ditch. I have no clue why they didnt see me, but perhaps they were looking somewhere else. This is how it should be , sometimes ya get lucky.

and as for the shots echoing.... in op flash if you took the shot from far enough distance the person died before they heard the shot. I have seen it happen and tested it with friends, and it has happened to me.

I'd also like to see snipers being able to use the 50 cal and disabling vehicles , as well as the ability to lase targets for airstrikes and the like.

[DBR_ONIX 0]

I'd like nicer ballistics for all guns or just sniper rifles if adding it for every thing would use to much CPU.

FFS! Remeber this isn't talking about OFP's engine! Not even a modifed version, a new engine! Which can do this!

I doubt realistic ballistics will put too much of a drain on CPU, relativly

I think the hugest thing about snipers that could change (Short of hiding acctualy working, they see you just as well if your wearing a bright pink cammo uniform.. Yes I've tried ) would be to MAKE THE AI SNIPER WORK

I tried today with the FFUR (Because I liked the new sniper unit/rifle mainly, and was bored), put the sniper on a hill, full skill, top ranking, gave him a destroy waypoint on an soldier standing on a roof (in afganistan island), what did he do? Run down the hill, and get shot by the guy with an AK...

Most things "wrong" with sniping in OFP is due to the AI, which will be improved in ArmA, and hugely improved in Game2

The rest can be modded if it's not included in the shipped game

- Ben

[PhantomStalker 0]

The rest can be modded if it's not included in the shipped game

- Ben

The way I see things is that the game itself should have enough features that people should only have to mod uniforms and maps etc... not do a whole ballistics system..

[DBR_ONIX 0]

I'm sure they'll make it realstic, dont worry

"The way I see things is that the game itself should have enough features that people should only have to mod uniforms and maps etc... not do a whole ballistics system.." - Out of the box, for doing what the game intends, absoutly, but they have to (It's extremely unlikely they wont, just pointing out) allow you to alter things down to this level. For things like making laser-guns etc, or to making super realstic M4s.. Infact, if they didn't, there wont be hunderds of new M4s made.. Hmmmmmmmm.......

Basicly, yeh, BIS will undoubtly make it realistic out of the (hopefully) shiney new box. But still let you modify anything you want that you think isn't realstic enough.

- Ben

[JdB 151]

I'm sure they'll make it realstic, dont worry

Realistic yes, but not as ''extreme'' as said before about the dirt in the weapon. As much as BIS likes realism, the game needs to remain playable for n00bs and experts alike.

[crave22 0]

Well then, for those of us who want the gun to be able to jam from dirt, BIS could put an option in the difficulty section like they did in OFP 1 for rifle tracers, hud, etc. Then n00bs who don't want the rifle to jam or misfire from dirt can turn the option off.  

[Reclus3 0]

Im kinda stealing this idea, but think it would work well in the game, atleast from a mission planning side.

It comes from Far Cry and Im sure just by saying that name you guessed the idea already. Thats right - Scopes that reflect light. Only difference I would like to see from Far Cry is that it did not matter where in (Far Cry) the map you were if you had direct sight at the enemy you would see the reflection no matter where the light above was coming from or even if it was night.

In Game2 it would be nice to have that so not only do you have to take the terrain, and some other things snipers have to account for, but they would also have to watch to see if they are gonna have a reflection off their scope that will tip off the enemy to where they are at.

I know I probably did not explain that well, but I hope you get the idea.

[PhantomStalker 0]

Im kinda stealing this idea, but think it would work well in the game, atleast from a mission planning side.

It comes from Far Cry and Im sure just by saying that name you guessed the idea already. Thats right - Scopes that reflect light. Only difference I would like to see from Far Cry is that it did not matter where in (Far Cry) the map you were if you had direct sight at the enemy you would see the reflection no matter where the light above was coming from or even if it was night.

In Game2 it would be nice to have that so not only do you have to take the terrain, and some other things snipers have to account for, but they would also have to watch to see if they are gonna have a reflection off their scope that will tip off the enemy to where they are at.

I know I probably did not explain that well, but I hope you get the idea.

very good idea! snipers have to watch out their dog tags and anything that could shine is not showing. They also have to make sure they dont have loose things that jingle and make noise.

[maddogx 13]

Im kinda stealing this idea, but think it would work well in the game, atleast from a mission planning side.

It comes from Far Cry and Im sure just by saying that name you guessed the idea already. Thats right - Scopes that reflect light. Only difference I would like to see from Far Cry is that it did not matter where in (Far Cry) the map you were if you had direct sight at the enemy you would see the reflection no matter where the light above was coming from or even if it was night.

In Game2 it would be nice to have that so not only do you have to take the terrain, and some other things snipers have to account for, but they would also have to watch to see if they are gonna have a reflection off their scope that will tip off the enemy to where they are at.

I know I probably did not explain that well, but I hope you get the idea.

Good idea! It wouldn't even be too hard to code. Really the Game just has to check if the sun is somewhere behind the enemey (from the snipers point of view). If that is the case, the light would reflect off the lense back to the enemy and he would see that flash of light, like in Far Cry.

[DBR_ONIX 0]

But you could easily end up making it so hard to do anything it becomes no fun to play.. The extra dificulty would solve this

Quote[/b] ]Realistic yes, but not as ''extreme'' as said before about the dirt in the weapon. As much as BIS likes realism, the game needs to remain playable for n00bs and experts alike.

Exactly, but if someone was "extreme" realism, they could mod the game to be these. Aslong as the engine is expandable enough to do this, wich is what BIS should concentrate on....

Things likd dog-tags reflecting, and making noise just wouldn't work in a game.. If all they do is give you away in the game, why would anyone wear them? Would there be option for all these little things in the action menu? ("Put dogtags inside sniper suit","Polish dog tags","Sit Down","Tie Shoes","Scratch head", etc etc..). Theres a limit to what you can put in a game without inventing a decent Virutal-Reality system

Things like the relfections of scopes, aslong as the engine supports mirrors, which I'm sure it will, will be possible (by telling the game that these faces are mirrors, for example)

- Ben

[Daniel 0]

The most important factors for me would be working bi-pods on guns and decent "Sniper" AI so that they don't run to CQB range instead of just picking enemies off like DBR Onix said.

[Pathy 0]

a changeable camo system, so that you can adjust the layers of your ghillie to suit the environment. If your in very sparse landscape with alot of browns and light greens, youd obviously want a different set of colours to a dark green forest.

[PhantomStalker 0]

a changeable camo system, so that you can adjust the layers of your ghillie to suit the environment. If your in very sparse landscape with alot of browns and light greens, youd obviously want a different set of colours to a dark green forest.

Im glad someone else agrees with me on that... even if it takes like a minute or two for the change to take place, its better then just having the same few bushes poking out from ya.

[Scrub 0]

Im kinda stealing this idea, but think it would work well in the game, atleast from a mission planning side.

It comes from Far Cry and Im sure just by saying that name you guessed the idea already. Thats right - Scopes that reflect light. Only difference I would like to see from Far Cry is that it did not matter where in (Far Cry) the map you were if you had direct sight at the enemy you would see the reflection no matter where the light above was coming from or even if it was night.

In Game2 it would be nice to have that so not only do you have to take the terrain, and some other things snipers have to account for, but they would also have to watch to see if they are gonna have a reflection off their scope that will tip off the enemy to where they are at.

I know I probably did not explain that well, but I hope you get the idea.

Good idea! It wouldn't even be too hard to code. Really the Game just has to check if the sun is somewhere behind the enemey (from the snipers point of view). If that is the case, the light would reflect off the lense back to the enemy and he would see that flash of light, like in Far Cry.

Easier yet. Reflections are done by the game engine itself. Make the mapping on the scope lens a mirror.

[DBR_ONIX 0]

I already pointed that out

Pretty much the same wording too

Quote[/b] ]Things like the relfections of scopes, aslong as the engine supports mirrors, which I'm sure it will, will be possible (by telling the game that these faces are mirrors, for example)

Anyway, hopefully they'll update the AI for both snipers, thats the biggest thing. Secondly the AI's reaction to different colours of uniforms.. So you cant find in artic camo in the middle of a forest. It's not imposible to code, check the colouring of the uniform overall (Take a sample area of the uniform, that is visble, merge it, and do the same with the terrain texture, compare them, if their within the same colour-range, they have good cammo, the closer the two ranges are, the harder it is to see the unit.. Kinda )

- Ben

[Ryujin 0]

I had few ideas while playing paintball.

1. A "Search" mode for AI when they notice something odd or get shot at but cant locate the source. In this mode depending on what they saw they would take actions depending on the situation, like spray rounds into bushes or call for back up and search the area.

2 Not really a sniping thing, but a better hiding at close range. For example I was playing CTF and was able to have a few guys on the other team walk 3 feet away!(It was very satistfying to shoot them in the back ) anyway in my experince people tend to look at only where they think you would come from. so i found the other teams main approach path, quickly dug a shallow thing (3-4 inchs) so i wouldn't stick up so much lay on my back in it and waited for guys to come through. I was in the opposit dirction of where they would look and pop lone wolfers when they came by. anyway id like to see AI not find you if you we camoed in unlikly place like close and below them (like DBR_ONIX's idea with colors.) and lie still.

EDIT: this should be tied to skill. alot of hiding is also luck. btw DBR_ONIX, where did you find the building destruction shot?

[maddogx 13]

Im kinda stealing this idea, but think it would work well in the game, atleast from a mission planning side.

It comes from Far Cry and Im sure just by saying that name you guessed the idea already. Thats right - Scopes that reflect light. Only difference I would like to see from Far Cry is that it did not matter where in (Far Cry) the map you were if you had direct sight at the enemy you would see the reflection no matter where the light above was coming from or even if it was night.

In Game2 it would be nice to have that so not only do you have to take the terrain, and some other things snipers have to account for, but they would also have to watch to see if they are gonna have a reflection off their scope that will tip off the enemy to where they are at.

I know I probably did not explain that well, but I hope you get the idea.

Good idea! It wouldn't even be too hard to code. Really the Game just has to check if the sun is somewhere behind the enemey (from the snipers point of view). If that is the case, the light would reflect off the lense back to the enemy and he would see that flash of light, like in Far Cry.

Easier yet.  Reflections are done by the game engine itself.  Make the mapping on the scope lens a mirror.

Obviously the textures would have to be mirrors for the light to reflect off them, that's not what I was saying mate. What I meant is for the AI. The AI doesn't go around checking textures all the time. They need coded conditions and situations.

[DBR_ONIX 0]

2 Not really a sniping thing, but a better hiding at close range. For example I was playing CTF and was able to have a few guys on the other team walk 3 feet away!(It was very satistfying to shoot them in the back ) anyway in my experince people tend to look at only where they think you would come from. so i found the other teams main approach path, quickly dug a shallow thing (3-4 inchs) so i wouldn't stick up so much lay on my back in it and waited for guys to come through. I was in the opposit dirction of where they would look and pop lone wolfers when they came by. anyway id like to see AI not find you if you we camoed in unlikly place like close and below them (like DBR_ONIX's idea with colors.) and lie still.

EDIT: this should be tied to skill. alot of hiding is also luck. btw DBR_ONIX, where did you find the building destruction shot?

Building descruction shot is from OFP.info's news post on new Game2 screenshots

I totaly agree, people aren't going to notice you if your lying on the ceiling, the AI also aren't going to notice you (shouldn't*) if you lie in the middle of their base (if you get in undetected) , and their just casualy walking about. People don't look for unexpected things, if they did, they wouldn't be unexpected

I think the visibily thing should be something along the lines of...

Ammount blended in with cover, alert status of enemys (High if you've been spoted > 100m from the unit, very high if a member of their squad has seen the enemy, and they should be activly searching if a member of the squad, more so if it's the leader, has been shot, and if it was a sniper, or long distance shot with anything, they should get inside a building, or behind a vehicle/bush/tree), how many high ranking (Greater than a certain rank) units there is about (If theres 83 Russian Generals, they should be on a high alert than if theirs only two civillians chatting, and them in the area )

Other important thing, the AI not having eyes in the back of their head

Finaly, notice that body with a sniper bullet in it's head.. A dead unit's squad mates dont seem to care that Jim is lying dead, and their all just standing about like nothing happened..

If BIS can fix all this.. :O

- Ben

[CJE 0]

.... Yes I've tried ) would be to MAKE THE AI SNIPER WORK

I tried today with the FFUR (Because I liked the new sniper unit/rifle mainly, and was bored), put the sniper on a hill, full skill, top ranking, gave him a destroy waypoint on an soldier standing on a roof (in afganistan island), what did he do? Run down the hill, and get shot by the guy with an AK...

Yeah, Ive had that problem, but I swear, I think it was FDF, snipers actually do shoot at very far distances. Just put a East sniper there in original ofp, I swear, he will snipe from very far.

It happens to me anyway, and I HATE AI snipers.

I once put an AI sniper on the castle on nogova near trosky, and i was in the church and they sniped me. And i was impressed.

[Scrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]DBR_ONIX Posted on Aug. 26 2005,21:04

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already pointed that out

Pretty much the same wording too  

DOH!  Sorry, it was late after a good day's work.  

Quote[/b] ]MadDogX Posted on Aug. 27 2005,04:57

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously the textures would have to be mirrors for the light to reflect off them, that's not what I was saying mate. What I meant is for the AI. The AI doesn't go around checking textures all the time. They need coded conditions and situations.

Woah, double stupidity on my part, sorry.

The point I 'think' I was trying to make before my IQ dropped 40 points, was that obviously the game engine does mirrioring.  The vectors of the rays are known, the engine and AI are both made by BIS.  So why not include a setting in the weapon config to enable/disable the scope's position and plane in the model (for incidence/reflection), much like how the weapon's outfitted for the bullet creation point and IT's vector.  This would allow a standard calculation to look for rays that intersect a unit, and see if they are alert to notice.  Yes, a percentage range with randomness would function, but not that it would correlate at all to the sniper units' action or inaction.  Doing a check once a second would be plenty.  Culling the units possible to see the effect(clipping) would seriously limit unnecessary CPU strain, as would the fact that scopes can be configured to have this feature or not (hopefully responsibly).  Since Snipers or infiltrators are the ones that would be most affected, and are not necessarily in great quantity,  the feature might not be that bad for FPS..

 There, THAT is what I meant by 'The engine already supports mirroring'.  It was just... Uh..  condensed.

[DBR_ONIX 0]

Something like checking whether a relefection is visble to an AI will not strain the engine!

Think what seeing if a bullet has hit something requires.. Checking the angle from the lens, to straight-out from the lens, is nearly the same as from straight-out from the lense down to the enemy.. (Very simplifed, but you get the idea, could use a bunch of fancy words, but 1, I'd get them wrong, 2, it's easier to understand this way ). The engine has fully deformably buildings etc, something "trival" like this wont affect performace at all (Well, noticably)..

- Ben

[Scrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]DBR_ONIX Posted on Aug. 29 2005,09:55

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something like checking whether a relefection is visble to an AI will not strain the engine!

Think what seeing if a bullet has hit something requires..

Yup. Just remember the reflection will be 'firing' continuously, possibly on all units, at a certain rate. This *could* add up. Just a talking point.

[ebns72 0]

things i think the sniper needs:

Realistic bullet physics. This means more trajectory (bullet drop), wind, etc.

Better "steadiness" simulation: This game needs deployable bipods, without a bipod it should be almost impossible to hold your gun steady, more weapon shake...with a bipod you can hold it steady.