JAM3

[MJ12 Trooper Hellfire 0]

It is great, but I think the Anti-Tank weapons (RPGs, LAWs etc) need more oomf.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

It's not so much the EH that uses system resources, it's the scripts that the EH runs. Having to run a script for each bullet that is fired would create slowdowns.

HD via dispersion settings was always a compromise solution, hopefully BIS will change the way things work in the future games - eg have two dispersion settings, one for the weapon and one based on the skill of the unit. Might be a better idea to focus discussion in those forums to get the system fixed

STT

Yea but changing a bullets vector isn't going to lag very much, I've allready tried scripted dispersion on my Uzi pack, and it worked perfectly. And if it does lag thats when you can have the option to disable it and use HD mags. So there really isn't any problem with using scripted HD rather than HD mags.

[cornhelium 0]

I'm wondering if the AIDispersionCoef= settings could be tweaked, so that the dispersion= settings could be the same for HD and non-HD mags.

That way, only AI would fire HD mags with with less accuracy - a human player could pick up the mag and see no difference.

...in theory anyway

Cheers,

CH

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I'm wondering if the AIDispersionCoef= settings could be tweaked, so that the dispersion= settings could be the same for HD and non-HD mags.

That way, only AI would fire HD mags with with less accuracy -  a human player could pick up the mag and see no difference.

...in theory anyway  

Cheers,

CH

Yea but then you still have twice as many types of magazines and its just confusing sometimes, and it would be alot simpler if you used just 1 magazine type and scripted the dispersion, it would save ALOT of time for addon/mission makers.

[pazuzu 21]

I've been getting this error with jam3:

config.bin/cfgweapons.jam_ak47mortar

Any idea why this shows up?

Or how I can get rid of it?

Thanks.

[cornhelium 0]

Hi Pazuzu,

Gah, sorry mate. This is an error in the Readme.

The Readme incorrectly calls the riflegrenade "JAM_AK47mortar", but the proper name is JAM_AKMmortar.

If you're adding magazines to units, using JAM_AKMmortar will fix the problem. If you're using a description.ext for your mission, you'll need to do the same there.

Will fix.

Cheers bud  

CH

Edit: Fixed Readme now available from the OFPEC JAM page, both separately and in the main JAM3 download. Thanks MacGuba.

[Totala 0]

Might be off topic but I am looking for bn_tracers123 addon ?

[max power 21]

It is great, but I think the Anti-Tank weapons (RPGs, LAWs etc) need more oomf.

Yeah, I've heard an rpg7 fire on a newscast in iraq... and they sound wooshy and weird, but very loud.

The LAW 'rockets' however burn out all of their propellant well before the rocket leave the launcher. I'd imagine they they would sound more like a thump than the current whooshing sound.

edit: What exactly is an ofp meter? By that I mean, what is the difference between a meter in real life and a meter in OFP?

And is there a batch decoder for wss files out there? Doing them one at a time is a pain in the backside.

[General Barron 0]

On the whole HD mags issue...

I LOVE HD mags, for both the AI and the player. It is SO much better than the default BIS crap, where the player has superhuman accuracy.

Being able to simply move your mouse over the target and click makes 500m shots child's-play (from standing!. Add to this the fact that you can easily SEE someone from that distance, and you've got SERIOUS differences between OFP and real life.

A possible solution would be to alter the game's core config, to increase the "aim wobble" in cfgmovesmc. This would make it harder for the player to "mouse over" his target, and would also decrease the AI accuracy. However, this cannot be done thru an addon, so it is not an option (you can make a custom soldier with custom cfgmoves, but you cannot alter the cfgmoves of other addons/bis units).

Another problem is that if you increase the AI's 'wobble' too much, then they often won't even shoot at the target. This happens long before you can decrease the AI's accuracy to reasonable levels. So the 'best' solution would really be a combination between high dispersion, and high 'wobble'.

But like I said before, you can't change aim precision thru an addon, so high dispersion weapons are the only possibility. That leads back to the original argument: whether to script it or configure it. Scripting is MUCH less efficient than configuring it, so I don't even see why that would be considered. Every bullet shot requires a 'nearestobject' call, which is one of the most CPU intensive scripting commands. Besides: you can't 'attach' a script to a weapon or magazine, so addons using JAM magazines wouldn't even 'get' the script. Better to point interested mission makers to such a script (there are a couple different methods on OFPEC) than to rely on one in the addon.

I don't see what the problem is with players using HD mags anyways. Like I said, default OFP lets you be a super-soldier: one that can run 15km without tiring; spot prone, motionless, camouflaged enemies at 300+ m (try it in real life), and easily hit these enemies with one shot, with iron sights, from standing.

Now there are many different problems with the engine that make the above possible, but the end result is that fire-and-maneuver tactics are unnecessary, since the distance to the enemy makes little difference (not to mention the lack of cover for them to use).

HD weapons makes it highly advantageous for the AI and player to be close to the enemy in order to kill them--much more so than in vanilla OFP. Giving only the AI HD weapons, and leaving the player as a super-soldier just gives the player that much more of an advantage, and encourages players & mission editors to 'Rambo' it.

[stgn 39]

On the whole HD mags issue...

I LOVE HD mags, for both the AI and the player. It is SO much better than the default BIS crap, where the player has superhuman accuracy.

Being able to simply move your mouse over the target and click makes 500m shots child's-play (from standing!. Add to this the fact that you can easily SEE someone from that distance, and you've got SERIOUS differences between OFP and real life.

A possible solution would be to alter the game's core config, to increase the "aim wobble" in cfgmovesmc. This would make it harder for the player to "mouse over" his target, and would also decrease the AI accuracy. However, this cannot be done thru an addon, so it is not an option (you can make a custom soldier with custom cfgmoves, but you cannot alter the cfgmoves of other addons/bis units).

Another problem is that if you increase the AI's 'wobble' too much, then they often won't even shoot at the target. This happens long before you can decrease the AI's accuracy to reasonable levels. So the 'best' solution would really be a combination between high dispersion, and high 'wobble'.

But like I said before, you can't change aim precision thru an addon, so high dispersion weapons are the only possibility. That leads back to the original argument: whether to script it or configure it. Scripting is MUCH less efficient than configuring it, so I don't even see why that would be considered. Every bullet shot requires a 'nearestobject' call, which is one of the most CPU intensive scripting commands. Besides: you can't 'attach' a script to a weapon or magazine, so addons using JAM magazines wouldn't even 'get' the script. Better to point interested mission makers to such a script (there are a couple different methods on OFPEC) than to rely on one in the addon.

I don't see what the problem is with players using HD mags anyways. Like I said, default OFP lets you be a super-soldier: one that can run 15km without tiring; spot prone, motionless, camouflaged enemies at 300+ m (try it in real life), and easily hit these enemies with one shot, with iron sights, from standing.

Now there are many different problems with the engine that make the above possible, but the end result is that fire-and-maneuver tactics are unnecessary, since the distance to the enemy makes little difference (not to mention the lack of cover for them to use).

HD weapons makes it highly advantageous for the AI and player to be close to the enemy in order to kill them--much more so than in vanilla OFP. Giving only the AI HD weapons, and leaving the player as a super-soldier just gives the player that much more of an advantage, and encourages players & mission editors to 'Rambo' it.

First I would like to say would you please download My M4 pack and play clean sweep with em atleast ten times then tell me if you still feel like a super soldier which easily point and click do this in normal ofp then do it with DMA for ex. I hope you will notice a fairly big difference if you don't then play with normal OFP weapons and I am 99% sure you will notice the difference in speed of you engagements and how effective you are.

Now i couldn't become a soldier because I have astma So I have never tryed to shoot at enything more than 25 meters away with a 22. rifle(considering it was my first time did prity good I think, 189 out of 200 points) but having said that I hate HD mags it does not simulate what Rifles are capable of shooting. I belive you as a Marine has/had to be able to hit a man size taget 500 meters away, benched on the range? No way you are gonna do that whithin the first 100 rounds with a HD mag.

HD mags also give the player a advantage because he will notice how the rounds are spraying in a pre detremined circle and can try to calculate where to aim to have the biggest chance of hitting unlike the AI which just blast away, do you get "scared" when fired upon by HD mag? I don't(if I am standing still) adding a HD mag just increases my chances of survival and the AI chances of dieing in a direct confrontation. HD mags also increased the chances of hitting a moving man just hold the aim on the taget and you are sure to kill it with a couple of shots unlike if you shoot with an accurate weapon then my expirence is that you are much more likely to miss. HD in CQB is more effective than accurate mags also. Yousing HD mags also either makes snipers usless or as you've said super soldiers.

In short i think HD is usless and prity much as unrealistic as super shooting when you have played around with my guns you will notice that not only does it affect your accurcy but also the AI it just don't run around a put a bullet between your eyes every time and you don't do it either. If you then add more wavering to the animation it gets even harder for you and the AI. And you still retain the weapons ability to hit somthing 300-500+ meters away. Now my guns arn't developed finish so if you have enything to add on a realisem aspect please do so.

STGN

[stgn 39]

Ar damm sory for the duble post.

STGN

[stevevcb 3]

Sorry, but I disagree. HD mags may not be 100% realistic in that rounds do not come out of your weapon at an angle, but if you take a JAM3 HD rifle, stick it on automatic and fire a long burst at a house that's about 200m away, you'll get a wide (about half a metre or more) grouping. Now, take a stock BIS weapon and fire a long burst into the same house from the same range, and you'll notice that the rounds land a lot closer. Automatic fire from a rifle at that sort of range should not be surgically precise, and with HD mags, it's not.

Compare a BIS M60 and a HD JAM3 M60, and you'll notice that the BIS one is basically a deathray. Sure, the thing bucks up and down a little bit, but if you get the first three rounds to hit, the next hundred and ninety-seven will probably hit too. The HD one is more realistic in that it creates a cone of fire. If three soldiers are coming at you from 300m and you fire a few bursts at them, you've got a fair chance of hitting the middle one and there's the possibility that you're going to hit his mates as well. Machine guns are meant to behave like this, that's why they have high rates of fire and are belt-fed. They're there to fill a square metre of air with lead. If they were deadly accurate, they'd just be large-calibre automatic rifles.

Looking at it from the "I put my sights on him and fired but I missed" angle, trying to shoot someone for real, someone who could be moving, could be a couple of hundred metres away, could be trying to kill you himself is a difficult task, because chances are you're not going to be able to to lie down, assume the textbook firing position, time your breathing and gently squeeze the trigger. You're going to want to line up as quickly as possible and put as many rounds down on him as possible. This doesn't translate very intuitively into OFP because, with the exception of a tiny bit of wobble (that stops if you keep still), shooting is just a matter of putting the sights on him and clicking a couple of times. You don't have to align the rear sight with the front sight, you don't have to control your breathing, you don't have your hands shaking (hold your hand up to your face and look at it. It's not completely still, is it?).

HD mags are just a rough way of taking all these factors and putting them into OFP without having to pore over ever variable in a weapon's config or script them in. They're not 100% realistic, but what else is 100% realistic in OFP? Nothing.

Thanks to the JAM3 team, too. I loved JAM2, but JAM3's improved on it tenfold... even I've had to practice with all my favourite JAM'd weapons again to get used to the recoil

[stgn 39]

Maby I expressed my self rong I didn't mean that BIS weapons are better than HD I think they are equaly bad both having down sides, but that there is a better way, the more realistic you make guns act the harder you have hitting.

I have to disagree that HD machinguns are less effective than a BIS weapons on the countrary they are more effective at the ranges you usualy engage on in OFP especialy if you ingage grupes because with a BIS weapon you manualy have to aim at each AI and when you move the gun chances are that you will miss abit swining it around with a HD weapon you sometimes can just place the aim in the midlde and hit every buddy. The down side with BIS machine gun is that if you get to know it can use it as a rifle with hundred shots(heard a story of SF's during the first gulf war doing just that). That can be made much harder in the config with out makeing an unrealistic dispersion(not saying that BIS has realistic dispersion that is fare from true).

To take my own guns as an example they are more slugish than BIS weapons or JAM weapons for that matter, meaning if you swing the weapon it will move much differently. This affect how fast you can engage a taget if you just swing aroun shooting to every side chances are you aint gonna hit enything but is going to end up dead because the AI has no fear an shoots if you burst away with a JAM HD you will easily control the weapon mowing every body down(at shorter ranges 0-200m at longer you aint gonna hit enything).

Also try shooting full auto with my guns, the aim reises and you will most likely waste most bullet on air especialy if you standing up. This is because of the way the recoile is made. its realistic as you in real like can(depending on weapon) hold the muzzel down so every shot is hitting prity close note that by this time you muzzel has gone off taget and you have to move it back which will cause the trouble and you will moste likely just waste a lot of rounds emtying your mag not hitting enything because the weapon is accurate you don't hit when you don't aim which is not true for HD mags.

STGN

[General Barron 0]

Okay STGN, I tried out your M4 pack (I found v0.45 on ofp.info; hope it was the latest). Anyway, I have to admit I am impressed.

I had heard of the 'dexterity' value, which makes a weapon take longer to swing around, but I didn't realize how much of a difference it could make (without being annoying, like with the BIS AA launchers). Having that slight delay to bring your rifle on target does help keep it from feeling so... "point & clicky", to coin a phrase.

However, that alone doesn't seem to solve the problem, IMO (although it is a step in the right direction). I'll grant that JAM HD mags are a bit extreme in their dispersion, but Kooky makes the point perfectly: HD roughly simulates all the other things affecting accuracy that can't be simulated by OFP.

------

Quote[/b] ]I belive you as a Marine has/had to be able to hit a man size taget 500 meters away, benched on the range? No way you are gonna do that whithin the first 100 rounds with a HD mag.

In the Marines we qualify against (among other things) a target at 500m, which is shaped like a standing man. We shoot this from the prone position, supported by a loop sling, with only cammies and a soft hat. I might roughly guestimate that the average marine hits this target 50% of the time.

However, that range is a totally different environment than combat (in fact the corps has just changed it to be more like combat). You aren't wearing armor, you aren't tired or hungry, your sling is tied around your bicep, and you can very clearly see the target (it is black on a huge white background, standing a few feet off the ground).

---------

I would think that the best OFP solution would involve a combination of all the above:

 (1) more aim 'wobble', especially in standing

 (2) higher 'dexterity' values so it is slower to bring weapon accurately on target

 (3) enough 'dispersion' to reduce the player's accuracy to real-life levels

 (4) enough 'aidispersion' values to make the AI less accurate

Unfortunately #1 can't be fixed by weapon/mag addons, as pointed out, so #3-4 have to pick up the slack. I'm not sure, but wouldn't #2 be configured on a per-weapon basis, not per-mag? If so that would be best, but would require JAM-dependent addons to adhere to a common 'dexterity' system.

For #3, I would approach it like this: I've heard that statistically, your accuracy in a combat situation decreases by some 40%. There is very little in OFP combat that decreases your accuracy, so let's say that in OFP, your accuracy only decreases by 10% in combat.

So you set up a test-fire range in OFP where you can hit a target about 100% of the time with your 0-dispersion weapon (250m standing is like that for me). Next, adjust the dispersion of the weapon so that you miss, say, 30% of the time. Wala! You've now found a high-dispersion value that is based on real-world values, and can thus be considered "realistic".

But for now, JAM is still a huge improvement over BIS stuff, HD or no.  

[stgn 39]

Thanks for the info on accuracy info will have a look at it.

STGN

[chops 111]

Hmmm I think that errrm.... yeah everything that General Barron said. Good to see ya back too! I thought you were in waist deep in flood water somewhere?

Aside from the actual hitting the target factor of HD mags, missning more means needing more ammo and that makes for a more immersive missions.

The dispersion on the mags in SEB Nampack are very high and it can be frustrating having Charlie/An imperialist zeroed and watching bullets impact all around him but on not on him. It makes for a few ammo drop scripts and stuff, which adds to the mission and makes you conserve your ammo, which I spose is a bit more realistic/believable.

[General Barron 0]

I thought you were in waist deep in flood water somewhere?

Nah, they ended up calling the whole thing off. I guess the governer didn't want any more federal troops over there. Go figure...

[cornhelium 0]

Hi folks,

Small fix: Error message when using Mounted M240-type mags (see CAVS thread for details).

You can download a 3.6mb fix from the OFPEC JAM page. Or, if you haven't upgraded to JAM3 yet, the full download is also fixed.

Many thanks MacGuba and OFPEC for your constant support.

Cheers,

CH

[TermiPete 0]

Great stuff - thanks for the quick fix

TP

[Totala 0]

Hi there -

Love JAM. I just fixed a JAM trouble I posted a few minutes ago

[Marshall300 0]

I've got an error "CFGWeapons.JAM_W762M_200FSmag" after installing some BAS stuff...i donnow which exactly. How can i fix it?

[cornhelium 0]

Hi Marshall,

Hm, very strange.

1. It might be that you have an old version of JAM_Magazines.pbo hanging around - maybe one in a mod folder and one in your main Addons folder? You should only have the JAM3 version, dated 9th September 2005, 9.26PM, size on disk 6.59mb. Check my sig for download.

2. When does the message appear, on OFP start or mission start? If mission start, what addons are in the mission? If OFP start, try removing your most recent addons 'til the error disappears.

Let me know how you get on. Cheers mate,

CH

[Marshall300 0]

Thanx a lot cornhelium!

I had two different versions of Magazines in two folders (/Addons and /Res/Addons)

Thanks again!

[cornhelium 0]

Edit: Post removed, update 6 on the way

[honchoblack 2]

Thank you for the update cornhelium.

I got a question regarding the name of the rar "JAM3_Fix5.rar". Where threre any udpates that where not mentioned in the first post (Fix1-4)?