SAM Site Ranges

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Quote[/b] ]There are ACES-compatible planes in beta right now. I'd suggest

getting in direct contact with Hardrock.

It would be a good idea to extend the standard to cover every possible aspect. Landing gear, Counter measures & Radar e.t.c

It's easy enough to provide counter measures\warnings for aircraft that don't have any built into the addon, and get the AI to use them. But the problem lies with addons that do have counter measures. There are probably numerous ways of doing it, with varying degrees of success. Coming up with a balanced, generic system for everyone’s version of counter measures. Would be very complicated. How many addons actually have built in counter measures?

Quote[/b] ]As for Radar Emitting vehicles...its something that is being worked on...i cant say more than that but its very early days.

The same goes for Anti radiation missiles.

By way of a quick status report, the Fire Control System is coming along nicely. I'm just about finished on the basics. But everything is working as we had hoped And I think it's safe to say that Radar Emitting vehicles and Anti radiation missiles are now a formality, and working AWACS e.t.c a definite possibility.

...does this mean i can stop being evasive about whos writing the code now

Ok I guess its safe to announce UNN is working on the Fire Control system for RKSL

We have been talking alot about managing radar systems within the OFP engine and come up with some interesting ideas.

One of which is the driving point behind the orignal post. Other as UNN said was AWACS, Radar/Anti Radar weapons etc.

[-HUNTER- 1]

If there will be highly upgraded radar systems, could somebody make that F-117 addon really stealthy?

On maps like tonal and Mia Iraz <50 isnt that hard, its allot of fun! Makes it more real when things fly by very fast!

[Gedis 0]

wow, you are talking about how to build a nuclear weapon nah, but this sounds realy serious, i think all of you are OFP maniacs, including me!

now, back to topic...

just curious:

what is the complete SAMs list done/doing by RKSL?

besides, different missiles = different target hitting methods, i don't know much about that, but at least is it in your plans?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

If there will be highly upgraded radar systems, could somebody make that F-117 addon really stealthy?  

On maps like tonal and Mia Iraz <50 isnt that hard, its allot of fun! Makes it more real when things fly by very fast!

Already have a working F-117 stealth and B-2 Spirit Flying.

The "radar" signature appears when the doors are open and reduces when they are shut.  Realistic IR signature is a bit different.  But the AI do engage them when they can actually see them - AAA guns are particualry effective.  While SAMs etc cant see them until too late.

what is the complete SAMs list done/doing by RKSL?

besides, different missiles = different target hitting methods, i don't know much about that, but at least is it in your plans?

Ok short list...

Rapier FSB / Blindfire

Rapier FSC / Blindfire / Dagger

SA-2 and Fansong E

ASPIDE/RIM-7 & Skyguard Radar

SA-4 Ganef

SA-5 Gammon & "BAR LOCK" Radar

SA-6 Gainful & "STRAIGHT FLUSH" Radar & "LONG TRACK" Radar

I'm modelling various Soviet era radar systems atm but no real ETA.  A lot depends on the results of UNN's Fire control scripts.

As for the "fusing" of the missiles some will have proximaty fuses.  Other will be impact fused.

[Gedis 0]

i asked SAMs list just because of "Long Track"/P-40 radar...

besides, SA-6 was the first SAM in the history, who downed F-117A.

wow, huge list!  

great great great, but not so great in waiting  

[bonko the sane 2]

as a ofp player who uses air assets whenever possible i must say this thread is very interesting, i agree with most votes on your site, a compromise whould seem to be the best solution, giving a slight radar detection range advantage to the SAM's.

looking forward to whatevers goodies you are working on

[AgentFox2 0]

Actually there is a threat warning system on pretty much all of Footmunch's aircraft. Both audio and animated warning are available.

I meant the ability to detect search and track emitters before launch, not after. If that exists in any released OFP addon, I haven't seen it.

I think the current absence of any sort of pre-launch warning against SARH or ARH missile systems in OFP presents the worst gameplay drawback to longer ranges for SAM systems.

Quote[/b] ]As for Radar Emitting vehicles...its something that is being worked on...i cant say more than that but its very early days. The same goes for Anti radiation missiles.

Good to hear.

[DKM Jaguar 0]

I have been thinking about this for the 100 million SAM/AA projects I have going.

From the first page of the topic it's clear that there is almost a reluctance to adopt any system which is actually able to shoot things down, let alone provide a challenge. It's maybe not that bad, it's just a SAM version of HD bullets. You only get shot down if you're really close and make a big mistake.

But personally I aim to simulate a realistic defence, one which will shoot down aircraft in a range that makes it not a walk over but not an uber weapon. 3-5km is probably what would suit OFP.

However, we need to look at jet speeds and the way they are made.

So, we can either have a SAM system that allows the player to do the hollywood version of events, flying around untouchable, or we can have a system that makes them stick to the ground and use actual skill in order to fly and be given a challenge.

It is not true that the only function a SAM has in OFP is for cutscenes. They can be used to deny the enemy use of airspace over an airfield, supporting friendly troops from attacks, or simply patrolling.

Sure, it may not be fun to use them as player objects, waiting for the enemy to arrive, but then we shouldn't expect EVERYTHING in OFP to be 100% playable, in most games the most the player gets to use is a truck or a jeep once. Because a SAM can be left in OFP and will perform perfectly with the AI, I think makes up for whatever lack of playability people perceive with plain realism and depth.

[Daniel 0]

I'm tempted to say full range - as OFP is a war simulator. While that could ensure air superiority for the side with the SAM, the aim of the game would then be to take out the SAM sites using means such as black ops, artillery, etc. After all, in all modern conflicts, one side always gains air superiority over the other fairly quickly.

In addition, we should then have aircrafty specially balanced to defeat them - such as really fast planes like the blackbird that can out run them, or weapons such as anti-radiation missiles.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Daniel @ Aug. 15 2005,14:21)]"In addition, we should then have aircrafty specially balanced to defeat them - such as really fast planes like the blackbird that can out run them, or weapons such as anti-radiation missiles."

Erm the idea of having a Blackbird in game is rather pointless.  Operationally it few above 100,000 feet and never came anywhere near the battlefield.   We dont need a special 'class' of aircraft as most every combat aircraft flying is now fitted with counter measures designed to defeat SAMs.

Anti radiation Missiles such as ALARM, Shrike etc are only a threat to SAMs and supporting Radar Sites, not ot actual aircraft.

Defination of an Anti Radiation Missile

[.COMmunist 0]

I have a question. It all make sense when the player would be forced to fly low and use landscape to avoid SAM fire. What about the AI? It will just fly forward and most likely become an easy prey. Is there a way to go around this?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I have a question. It all make sense when the player would be forced to fly low and use landscape to avoid SAM fire. What about the AI? It will just fly forward and most likely become an easy prey. Is there a way to go around this?

On the standard BIS planes then yes they are easy meat. But they are by no means 100% lethal.  Any plane equipped with countermeasures come off better but either type can survive as it depends on several factors:

1) Closing speed to the Launcher - the faster you are travelling the less like the the missile will hit due to the tracking speed of the launcher.

2) Vector relative to the launch axis of the launcher - Fly at an offset angle to the launcher and make the launcher track the target.  The faster you fly the less accurate the missile will be.

3) Manourverability of the missile type set in the config ie an SA2 is less manourvable than a Rapier

To cite an example.  using a Stock BIS A10 and a 6 Launcher SA2 battery with the AI controlling both we setup up:

a) Straight in Attack - 2x A10 with Mavericks - Speed of the A10 is 600 (ish).  Both A10s were downed between 2-3k from the launchers with 4250 fire range set. 3x SA2 Fired

b) Offset approach - 2x A10 with Mavericks - Speed of the A10 is 600 (ish). Both flew parallel to the site at 3k range, then turned in when they detected the site.  3 missiles lauched 1 A10 down.  The 2nd A10 then killed the Fansong and the launchers.

I repeated the scenerios again and a slightly different result.  They arent always that effective.

Next I tried with RKSL Tornado GR4 - equipped with counter measures.  2x StormShadow 4xASRAAM - Speed of 720ish.

a) Straight in Attack - 4 missiles fired - 1 Tornado killed at 1500m. 2nd Dammaged by a proximaty detonation.  Killed the Fansong and last 2 armed launchers

b) Offset approach - 3 SA-2 missiles fired - both tornadoes survived 1 dammaged.

Conclusion... the missiles are not 100% (just like real life) its possible to increase the chance of evading them by changing your approach vector in the mission editor to force the missile to track you and therfore reduce the probability of it hitting even without counter measures.

From some of the emails ive gotten about this topic there is a group of people in the community that seem to view the introduction of SAM systems to the game as herecy .  These addons will not be an all powerfull weapon that, "smites the holy airplane from the sky" (sorry for the biblical reference - couldnt resist) we're working very hard to make them as balanced as possible.  

You will be able to defeat them if you use tactics.  But if you expect to fly straight at them with impunity then you are going to die...probably .  Its no different than if you are an infantry grunt taking on a tank.  Use the right tactics and the tank is history. Same principle here, just different kit.

[adrenaline red 0]

That sounds awesome!! I cant wait!!

Any screenies?

[.pablo. 0]

awesome work, i'm definitely looking forward to these!

my vote is that you should use the 3-5k ranges from your mp games; make SAMs useful, but not so weak or so powerful that no one will want to use them...

[Gedis 0]

wow! great! i feel some how i need to help you... oh yes! i remembered, i have some info about SA-8. Dam, this isn't in your list

[.COMmunist 0]

Thanks for answering my question. I actualy have another one. Why using such old system as SA-2? Seems to me OFP addons community is build around 80's, 90's and now.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Thanks for answering my question. I actualy have another one. Why using such old system as SA-2? Seems to me OFP addons community is build around 80's, 90's and now.

Well the SA-2 is in use with pretty much every third world hotspot nation.

Its one of the most common SAM systems in existence. They were used in Iraq in '91 and '03 in various incarnations. Add to that China, North Korea and various other former 'Communist bloc' countries still have, or until recently had them in frontline use. Egypt still uses a modified version and in fact they recently began exporting it under license AFAIK. They are very much a current frontline system.

As for the others: SA-5 & SA-6.

The SA-5 is a big ugly system that makes a very big bang when it hits...which is always fun .

But seriously its not that big a jump from the SA2 to the -5 so why not. Performance wise its a long range system that makes longer range interception practical. Most people probably wont use it but i have plans for it.

The SA-6 - is also quite common in the former Soviet states - even in some north African countries since the Soviet break up in '89. Its also the fact that its a mobile system and its never been made for OFP makes it rather interesting to me.

Hope that answers the question.

Quote[/b] ]That sounds awesome!! I cant wait!!

Any screenies?

Only untextured ones...give me a few days and i'll post some beta pics.

[.COMmunist 0]

Thanks again. What trucks are you going to use to pull SA-2? Or are they going to be stationary? Any radar trucks with it? I remember seeing one addon with Ural truck with a large radar station.

I hope your system for air defence will be widely accepted by OFP community. Hopefuly later on someone will make modern systems like Patriot and S-400. This is a very good start in my opinion.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Thanks again. What trucks are you going to use to pull SA-2? Or are they going to be stationary? Any radar trucks with it? I remember seeing one addon with Ural truck with a large radar station.

I hope your system for air defence will be widely accepted by OFP community. Hopefuly later on someone will make modern systems like Patriot and S-400. This is a very good start in my opinion.

The SA-2 is not a mobile system.  Any pictures you've seen of it on trailers is only the 'ammo' truck.

Both the launchers and Fansong Radar can be moved by attaching wheels to the launcher and towing but they need to be setup in a semi permanent location.  Transporting the site isnt a feature i was planning on simulating.

As for more "modern" systems; DKM is already doing the Patriot.  The S400 may get done but it wont be a priority.  There are other teams out there talking about the S400 but no one seems that keen.

[LizardX 0]

I meant the ability to detect search and track emitters before launch, not after. If that exists in any released OFP addon, I haven't seen it.

Yes Sir, it's possible, but needs an O2/config/scripting time. You can even be informed about AAA or SAMs BEFORE they start fireing.

[havocsquad 0]

I was thinking for naval ships or long range SAM systems, you might want to spawn some non-targetable static units with powerful sensors.  Then have a script system place 4 of them around the site at N,S,E,W or ship about 3000 to 4000 meters away, and group them with the commander or commanding unit.

That way identification does not take forever and the unit can fire the SAM.

Does this sound practical or not?

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]The SA-6 - is also quite common in the former Soviet states - even in some north African countries since the Soviet break up in '89. Its also the fact that its a mobile system and its never been made for OFP makes it rather interesting to me.

This system was originally made by Remo as part of his North Korean pack. It was with his permission modified and updated by my mod (The Lost Brothers) and is currently in the Lost Brothers Addon Pack #2.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Quote[/b] ]The SA-6 - is also quite common in the former Soviet states - even in some north African countries since the Soviet break up in '89.  Its also the fact that its a mobile system and its never been made for OFP makes it rather interesting to me.

http://www.idfsquad.com/downloads/milesteg/LoBoEgyptSA6pic1.jpg

This system was originally made by Remo as part of his North Korean pack.  It was with his permission modified and updated by my mod (The Lost Brothers) and is currently in the Lost Brothers Addon Pack #2.    

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

OK that was an error on my part.  I should have said "the SA-4 Ganef has never been made for OFP makes it rather interesting to me. "

<EDIT>

The SA-6 that i have downloaded is more of a modified BIS Shilka.  Its also a bit out of scale and basic.

Ive downloaded Remo's pack and Its again rather basic and also out of scale. </EDIT>  I hope that your version is a more up to date version.

Quote[/b] ]I was thinking for naval ships or long range SAM systems, you might want to spawn some non-targetable static units with powerful sensors.  Then have a script system place 4 of them around the site at N,S,E,W or ship about 3000 to 4000 meters away, and group them with the commander or commanding unit.

That way identification does not take forever and the unit can fire the SAM.

Does this sound practical or not?

I can see what you are saying but there is a far more practical way of acheiving the pretty much that same results without scripting.  Just increase the sensitivy of the commander. Or have i missed something?

I can see the benefit for really long range detection but at the ranges we're looking at increasing the sensitivy seems more practical.  Escpecially when you get into group size issues.

[Scrub 0]

Wow, you guys have it together..

I vote for the ~5km range.. After all, if you can't get harrassed and pushed into the mud on the way to a target, it's no fun! (WhooHOoo!! The Wild Weasles, F4-G's on the tarmac)

[Evil Weasel 0]

Inspired by this thread I've spent a few hours playing around with the project Mcar sam systems ( sa-8 & sa-9) and Footmunch's planes, setting up various missions on Everon & Malden. It's been the most fun that I've had in OFP for weeks. Some of the observations that might be useful towards this project are as follows :-

1) For human pilots, as long as you get a warning of the incoming missile, the engagement range doesn't seem to make that much difference. As long as you can get low ( sub 50 metres) and use the terrain, you've got a reasonable chance of avoiding the missile. It certainly gives you a scare though. Playing hide & seek with the sam launchers in a helicopter is fantastic fun.

2) Whilst AI planes can cope  with the sam threat to an extent, helicopters are sitting ducks. One possible solution would to use the fired eventhandler on the sam system to run a script on the targeted aircraft, forcing it to drop to a minimal height ( flyinheight 30?) and head away from the incoming missile. Even more complexly, you could force it to randomly adopt one of a number of possible evasive manourvere patterns.

3) Rather than just being warned when a missile is incoming, it would be useful to know when you're being targeted ( I believe that a lot of modern aircraft can detect active radar detection). You could maybe do this using the 'knowsabout' value. I.e. once the value goes over a certain figure for a given aircraft, the pilot of the aircraft would be warned that they have been detected. Again the A.I's response to this warning could possibly be scripted. For example if they were carrying anti-radiation missiles they would engage, otherwise they would turn and flee.

4) Personally I would probably like to see fairly long engagement ranges for the sam's. It would seem a bit strange to have a handheld strela engaging out to about 3000m, whilst an sa-5 missile weighing a few hundred kilo's still only engaged to 5000m. As a balance it would be useful to have minimum engagement ranges as well ( up to a 1000m or so for the larger missiles) where they were basically unguided, as I believe is the case irl.

I can't wait for this project to be avaliable, as it would be a real step to a more realistic OFP, plus it would open up a whole realm of interesting mission possibilities. Thanks for all the hard work on it.