philcommando

[sputnik monroe 102]

I'd never pay for an addon, I'd pay for a BIS expansion pack but never a 3rd party addon.

What's the difference? Flashpoint is BIS's business, it's what they do for a living. They support and patch their program. 3rd party addons are hobby side projects by people who do something else for a living. You will not see patches and support for their product.

Besides, I was under the impression that people made mods, retextures, and addons for fun as a hobby because they enjoy it. If you have to be paid for it then it's obvious nothing more than labor to you and not enjoyable.

[philcommando 0]

Thanks Apollo for your far-sighted analysis. I will certainly not waste the effort you took to write it out clearly and objectively and will try the uphill task of seeking and sounding out the ofpec team if something could be worked out to help out the community.  I am a nobody and may be shown the door, but i will never waste another fellow community member's time, more so when he wrote from his head and heart.

Thanks Sputnik for your resolution. May BIS hears you and provide the addons that you seek as much as us. I too,or my grandchildren, await the day they will realease a total conflict pack spanning the ages from stone age till the death of our sun. ( forget the 2-d age of empires, it can never compare to ofp in any realistic way.)

[DKM Jaguar 0]

Even if BIS gave the permission for this, which they probably won't, I would never charge for an addon for OFP. It goes against the point.

[philcommando 0]

Glad to hear that from you, DKM. So does many addonmakers/hobbyist feel that way too - no charging for addons made with BIS 02.

I am also glad for your confirmation that you will never charge for addons and many here look forward with baited breathe for more free releases from your excellent skills.

[MilitiaSniper 0]

Screw paying for addons.

NO! NO! NO!

If you want to get paid for making them.

Then I say.., "Stop making addons!"

Sincerely, MilitiaSniper

     

[philcommando 0]

lol! wow! calm down militia.

No one is asking or forcing you to pay for anything.

No matter how good a proposal can be, it is the market forces that determines, not you or me, but you and i will always have the freedom of choice, the choice to pay or dont pay, to donate or not to donate, for addons, missions, scripts and even BIS's addon packs.

Market forces will also determine what we will get and what we dont get.

Have faith in the 'market'. It is the only truth in the commercial world of who succeeds and who fails.

So relax and go enjoy the afghan mission hunt you so creatively created. I sure did

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Thanks Apollo for your far-sighted analysis.

Well ... thank you really for the ships and the horse etc idea's only have a value if something can be achieved by it ,atleast youre addons inspired a lot of people around here.

[sanctuary 19]

I wish you well and thank you for your participation in this thread and look forward to more free addons or animations from you. It's been a pleasure and motivation watching you contribute to ofp1 in animations, an area which was sorely overlooked in ofp1. Thousands of other form of historical and futuristic campaigns await yours and other equally kind hearted addonmakers magical touch.

What i have done publicly or not is irrelevant : it is not a matter of who did what, but the point ni this thread is why you did that.

Your suggestion is simply turning the answer to this "why" to a money reason, while the heavy majority of OFP contributors since OFP first appearance in demo version has already worked on something for OFP in a pure sharing to the community basis without considering the "why" answer to be "money".

Understand me well, i have nothing against someone wanting to get paid for his work, lots of people are dreaming about getting their hobby to be a fulltime job.

There are already former community addon makers that are doing this , thanks to their new contract with BIS/BIA but they are not community contributors anymore , but professionals contractors.

But in the thread you made, we are not talking about BIS/BIA affiliated addon makers , here but we are talking about the people being a part of this community, sharing the result of their work with the other OFP fans.

Bringing money in the equation, to make "community" addon makers making things for money will not bring new life in an already lively OFP.

It will be the opposite in fact.

[stevevcb 3]

As far as I'm concerned, making addons and missions should be its own reward. If you need money as an incentive to release things to the community... well, your heart mustn't be in it. If your heart's not in something you do in your spare time, what's the point of doing it at all?

Charging for addons will only harm the community, not help it. If a new addon is released that is kinda interesting but no big deal, I'd download it for free. If I had to pay for it, I'd probably not bother.

[tankieboy 0]

Yeah, it isnt VBS.

[Daniel 0]

I pay enough extra for downloading over my download limit on stuff like Liberation and Y2K3

[CanadianTerror 0]

I got VBS so I've done my share of paying.

[Chris Death 0]

Quote[/b] ]Screw paying for addons.

NO! NO! NO!

If you want to get paid for making them.

Then I say.., "Stop making addons!"

Sincerely, MilitiaSniper

Militia - PC never said that he want to get paid for

making addons - the more i read out of his lines that

he's willing to pay himself for keep the story going on.

Quote[/b] ]I'd never pay for an addon, I'd pay for a BIS expansion pack but never a 3rd party addon.

    What's the difference? Flashpoint is BIS's business, it's what they do for a living. They support and patch their program. 3rd party addons are hobby side projects by people who do something else for a living. You will not see patches and support for their product.

     Besides, I was under the impression that people made mods, retextures, and addons for fun as a hobby because they enjoy it. If you have to be paid for it then it's obvious nothing more than labor to you and not enjoyable.

Sputnik, it's exactly what i meant in my last post:

ppl are willing to pay for BIS addons, but FDF/CSLA/BAS stuff

ain't worth anything for them - sure i understand - stuff from those three above didn't even reach to the toes of any BIS addon yet - come on  

None of them came up with any patch to fix bugs afterwards or update yet - or did they?  

I still don't mean that it's good to pay some individuals, but

like i already mentioned - ppl could pay on other ways also;

maybe some could setup an addon makers specialised site with lots of stuff like tutorials / docs / texture database / model database / all kind of software available legally for

creating addons / beta-testing reports or even addon reviews like it exists for user missions already and off course an addons database where to find all those addons we're talking

about.

Then again a site like this could be built upon donations

as it for sure would eat a whole lot of webspace. And if there

were a bunch of serious guys it could be made explainable

which money goes where - so that there weren't any kind

of misuse.

:edit

Quote[/b] ]I got VBS so I've done my share of paying.

And i got a mercedes so i've then also done my share of paying - or what?

Right - YOU got VBS - but what share of paying for the comunity was it that you've done?

~S~ CD

[Apollo 0]

You guys seem to be missing the point ,PC doesn't want addons released strictly on payment ,rather is seeking ways for addonmakers to receive funding withought changing the system where addons or material is free ,this to promote the completion of certain mod work.

It's not that addonmakers can only receive funds by charging for their addons ,their are multiple ways to receive funds on the internet ,like site trafic and on site commercials ,and there are donations wich are often offered these days anyhow even if addons are usually free.Some people are willing to pay money to modgroups to see certain addons go faster towards completion ,in addition this investment can allow them to have a greater influence in the evolution of the mod.

There is a demand for the fast completion of modifications by the fact that people are willing to pay for that ,while with a prolonged patience they could get the addon free.

There is the ex. of the person who offered x amount of $ to a modmaker to release a certian mod sooner ,but given he was an individual the amount he could offer wouldn't have much of an inpact on the addonmaker in changing his mind or priority's ,probably there were a lot more people there who would have offered a small amount to for the fast completion ,If al wanting to have that addon had lumped their offer in $ toghether to offer it for faster completion ,the increased amount might have made the addonmaker change his mind.

The point is thought that the faster created addon is still released for free ,the only thing the contributor's gain is a cashflow wich might not hurt them much anyway ,for the benifit of a faster sattisfaction and possibly a deeper involvement in the creation of the product.

See noone would have to pay for the addons or whatever product made under this system ,it just allows those willing to donate to the community to donate in effeciant way ,it allows the measurement of demand of certain addons and thus can also be very good in filling up gaps in the addon comunity ,and it allows for good addon makers to earn somewhat from their work ,it wouldn't be as high as the payment as a professional ,but it would for many addon makers more or less also mean an acknowledgement of their great work ,something i think many of them seek.

Also think about the fact that for the prize of completion of a certain addon ,demands of specifications can be set ,for ex. the addon must reach an x amount of quality ,must be released before (insert date) ,addon must comply to standards of x ,y and z.Since addons are made free after completion ,these addons can be used by other modders then for further work ,it would elliminate a lot of duplicate work as a model would be put available to all compliant to all demands ,addons could get more modular rather than working as specific mod teams.For ex. a prize for one to release 200 house texture's of certain specifications ,the texture's on itself are not usuable for a gamer but freely released texture's for an addon community would be very helpfull.

Deffinatly for an open source gaming community combining modders from various games into one community to create own engine's and share work ,such open source modular system would be perfect for effeciancy ,and a good rewards system would be the best way to go to spread donations that are otherwise received or offered anyway ,this to maximize output and realisation of the community's goals.

Sure an open source community would be doomed if it only relied on money to get certain thing's done ,but then it would just be a software company like most others.But the money can be good to give an extra incentive ,acknowledge certain people for valued work ,and fill gaps where most addon makers wouldn't liek to go from hobbyist point of view.

The fact still is however that there is a staggering amount multiple created addons ,basicly almost waste of effort,all over so many modding community's for various games ,not only inside the specific community's ,but also between community's.

As an ex. the Ofp community could share so much with other addon comunity's and vice versa ,WW2 mods are made for virtually any good fps game but the weapon models ,texture's ,sounds ,houses etc are created for every game ,not one base model that is imported in all games.I figure if addon community's of most fps games would work toghether to make a whole game themselfs (including engine) ,and prevent the creation of duplicate would ,then their production power would far exceed the powers of the gaming industry.

Ah well ,one can dream ,but i doubt that at this moment in time the factor's are there to get this to work ,i think it just needs a few more years.

[soul_assassin 1750]

As Jag already mentioned it goes against the point. Those good enuf to earn money for it have moved on to VBS.

Quote[/b] ]maybe some could setup an addon makers specialised site with lots of stuff like tutorials / docs / texture database / model database / all kind of software available legally for

creating addons / beta-testing reports or even addon reviews like it exists for user missions already and off course an addons database where to find all those addons we're talking

about.

Then again a site like this could be built upon donations

as it for sure would eat a whole lot of webspace. And if there

were a bunch of serious guys it could be made explainable

which money goes where - so that there weren't any kind

of misuse.

www.ofpec.com ??

[CanadianTerror 0]

Quote[/b] ]And i got a mercedes so i've then also done my share of paying - or what?

Right - YOU got VBS - but what share of paying for the comunity was it that you've done?

It was a joke ffs. Simma down.  

You want donations for a hobby? Give me a break.

I didnt answer seriously before because I think asking for money to make addons is ridiculous in any way shape or form.

[DKM Jaguar 0]

There ARE addons I would say are worth money, RHS, FDF, FLK..

The distinction of paying for and donating to addons is very thin. You will inevitably be having a "pissing contest" between who donates the most, and those who don't pay would be treated as lower contributors to the community, and quite frankly this would stir up so much trouble it goes beyond not being worth it. I don't WANT money from people for the addons, becuase some people don't have that much, and I want them to be able to enjoy my work as much as the guy who has the top-end computer and enough money to burn. I don't want to be part of something where people are defined by what they spend on addons.

This is not VBS, as said, it will never be VBS, it's for a different audience.

To presume our own addons are worth money, be it donation or otherwise, is somewhat big headed too.

If BIS wanted to contract people to make content, so be it, good for them for being so skilled. I would support tat idea with BIS's seal of quality. I would not buy any other addons, and I would not freely download something other people were paying for. If I did, I'd feel I was cheating them becuase I didn't pay, and I would not pay for something so open to abuse.

As soon as you involve money, theft comes into play. Theft is bad now, people took our MI-28 for example and refitted it with different weapons.

If that was under this system, you'd be paying for that new version too. How much did that person do to earn that? Next to nothing.

It's just too much trouble, and should not be entertained. This is nothing against those who thought about doing it, but this would destory what little remains of the community.

[CanadianTerror 0]

Quote[/b] ]To presume our own addons are worth money, be it donation or otherwise, is somewhat big headed too.

Some addon makers have big heads.

EDIT: The addons for donations will get a buck or two perhaps at first but that wont last. You'd be opening a can of worms that wouldnt be worth the headache and then it would just stop...kind of like Addons At Ease did.

[UNN 0]

I don't see much point in bringing this up here, unless you want some official recognition from BIS regarding funding? AFAIK if Mods want to receive donations they can use PayPal? If people want to send them money it's entirely up to the individual.

But IMHO keep it out of the public forums, if people want to start trading in addons, please do it elsewhere. If you need to donate money, give it to OFPEC or OFP Info e.t.c People that provide a free service to everyone.

Quote[/b] ]Ah well ,one can dream ,but i doubt that at this moment in time the factor's are there to get this to work ,i think it just needs a few more years.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Someone attempted was made to bring Falcon 4 and OFP together, but they did not get much responce. If you can link the games together, the Mod makers will follow.

[Chris Death 0]

Thx Apollo for making an excellent translation of what

i meant into proper english (still not my first language).

You seem to think exactly same like i in some way.

@Soul_Asassin:

Quote[/b] ]www.ofpec.com ??

Are you really sure 'bout that?

There was something like that being started, but this died

long time ago, as DONATIONS to ofpec for sure couldn't

cover the amount of money being needed to keep this

part of the site alive.

Quote[/b] ]You want donations for a hobby? Give me a break.

You still didn't get what i said - no word about being paid

for making an addon came from my fingers yet.

Quote[/b] ]I didnt answer seriously before because I think asking for money to make addons is ridiculous in any way shape or form.

Oh i like it so much when ppl feel the need to answer, but

just not seriously - congrats for your effort.

Don't feel attacked now, but this thread's topic is so sensible

that unseriously posts can lead so soon into flame wars,

and that's for sure the last thing, PC did want when starting

it.

Let's keep it on peace way

~S~ CD

[CanadianTerror 0]

The only thing close to flames started from you.

So dont get so preachy.

You want serious?

I spend a lot of time beta testing for a few mods. Thats all your getting from me...my time.

You want money? Get a job.

[Chris Death 0]

Quote[/b] ]The only thing close to flames started from you

+

Quote[/b] ]You want money? Get a job

=

I will not even comment your last sentence

But then again:

Quote[/b] ]I spend a lot of time beta testing for a few mods. Thats all your getting from me...my time

=

cool - this is worth being called effort (and i really mean it like that)

~S~ CD

[soul_assassin 1750]

Quote[/b] ]The only thing close to flames started from you

+

Quote[/b] ]You want money? Get a job

=

I will not even comment your last sentence

But then again:

Quote[/b] ]I spend a lot of time beta testing for a few mods. Thats all your getting from me...my time

=

cool - this is worth being called effort (and i really mean it like that)

~S~ CD

In any case he is right. However wonerful ur addons may be they are still based on BIS technology - Soldier model base, engine etc,etc.

[Apollo 0]

Well let me try to put it somewhat more analyticaly formated.

1:

There are addon makers who would like to receive some payment for their effort.

Wich is clear ,and expressed by a number of addonmakers ,though not by far all ,hence:

2:

There are addon makers who would not like it when addons are sold rather than spread freely ,among them are a number of addonmakers that clealy wouldn't even want to receive donations ro released addons for free

3:

There are people willing to donate money to an addonmaker(s) to increase efforts on the production of a specific addon(s) / mod.In a way this already happens ,certain modteams receive donations already.

A number of conclusions can be made here.

4:

It comes to mind that those addon makers who don't like contributions don't nessecarily have to dislike the fact that others are receiving donations as long as the eventual addon(s) / modification are released for free.Their point is only that they don't want to pay or receive money for an addon ,hence there hasn't been any conflict over the fact that some big mods are in fact receiving some donations already anyhow.So no matter how donations are devided ,it shouldn't affect that segment of the addon community that wants to release it's work for free withought any donations given.

5:

When it comes to community donations ,most of these funds are going to the big mods ,while individual addon makers have a far smaller chance to release them even if their production is so much higher than that of a normal mod member.

6:

Another thing to take in mind here is that the individual donater has few gained with his donation ,he donates to an unfinished product where he has no influence over and no guarantee of it's completion ,while some donaters might actually want this.And since big mods are usually the few wich have a easy payment system he has few oppurtunity to donate for a very specific addon ,neither is there an accounting of funds received and devided ,thus the individual donater knows few of the volume of other donations.

7:

Donations ,because they are usualy spread up over multiple big mods ,thus often also given to mods that make certain addons multiple times ,such redundancy usually isn't in the interrest of the donater at all.

8:

Addons are usually only released fully ,not modular ,this forces a lot of addon makers to be a jack of all trades in adon making to see a whole addon into completion ,and lets them often do tasks where they arn't best in.Some are faster and better modeler's while other's are more effeciant texturer's.In mod groups often certain people will only do what they are best in ,some wll model others will texture others will code etc. ,but individual addon makers have to do most of it themself ,and so loose time at workign at things they are not best at.

9:

Mods teams as a whole often wait with releasing their addons when the whole project is finished ,however with this a lot of seperate addons or script's are unreleased for publc use for a long time while they could be very valuable for the continuation of an other mod.

What i conclude from this all is that there is basicly room for some "free-lance" addon making ,on demand of contributers ,for free public release afterwards ,where the contributers can make demands on specifications of the product and pay on completion a reward wich the addon maker doesn't have to accept.

The end result would be an increase of addon material ,those working as hobbey'ist could continue their work under their terms and wouldn't be affected by this ,while those more inticed into production for some reward would have the opportunity to be rewarded for community demanded addons where contributors would be most willing to contribute ,their addons are still released free so everybody can use them ,but those that work for the reward are set to work to by the community highly demanded addons of a high quality.

Contributions could also go to addon creation material rather than complete finished addons ,and allow individual addon makers to work purely on their preffered field and get rewarded for that.

Addons redundancy would be prevented inside the free lance system ,why would contributors pay twice for the same product?

It would allow the contibutor's to get exactly what they want for their contribution ,and most of the times this would be in the interrest of the general community ,and to get a lot of effeciancy for the amount of money contributed.It would allow for the community to steer those many individual addon makers (atleast those that want donations) as for the donations to be earned a lot of proffesionalism would be needed by the individual addon maker.

Well maybe my point shouldn't have been put in this thread in the first plce ,because ,as i said before ,it was more created for an open source community that would include modding community's of various games ,and actually the goal of ellimination of redundancy was actualy more important when i began to think about such thing's.

But if i may quote Philcommando:

Quote[/b] ]This is only a personal thought. I may be wrong or i may be right. I hope moderators will allow this thread to be discussed as it is more than just 'pay for addons' concept, but a lifeline and proposed solutions than can be openly and honestly discussed in good faith and perhaps others will see the light and stop such issues from cropping up again.

And there ,this is only my personal thought to ,and noone is perfect ,what Pc wanted was a discussion of an issue that exists ,and because the issue does exist to a certain degree it helps brainstorming about it to try to solve some of that issue.

[Chris Death 0]

@Soul_Assassin:

Quote[/b] ]In any case he is right. However wonerful ur addons may be they are still based on BIS technology - Soldier model base, engine etc,etc.

I never said; A) anything about how wonderful or crap

MY addons are, or B) that i want money or something else for it.

And in any case with his last sentence he's not right

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else of what was suggested there especially in relation to the topic of this thread - or am i wrong here?

I hope that upon Apollo's last explanation you understand

what i want say, as it goes almost into same direction.

I don't want get paid for making anything - i only said it would

be better to let one hand wash the other one instead of letting ppl pay for getting addons.

Like if there were some out there who could fill this gap about

important resources for give addon makers a chance to

spend most of their time in doing what they can do best (like

apollo said).

I for myself am not a texturer, but i could create 1000 times

better stuff with decent textures -> but don't get me wrong

again - i don't expect anybody to give me some textures

These should be from the comunity for the comunity and not

to individuals only - like on such an addon makers site, featuring lots of resources that i already mentioned before.

I can't explain much better as english is not my first language,

but i really think that Apollo did already a good job on doing

it.

~S~ CD