Depleted Uranium (DU)

[Ironsight 1]

these cheaters (US government) that want to use DU rounds on abrams tanks, did biggest trick in the world, why do you think russian tanks can't avoid being destroyed from one shell?

Why is the use of superior technology cheating?

[FerretFangs 0]

Stop using DU rounds? Hmmm, how 'bout.... "NO".

And you're going to do what about it? Yep, thats right, nothing.

[Akira 0]

Depleted uranium = depleted of radioactivity (to a large degree.)

Its not radiation that does damage, its that its one of the heavy, toxic metals (like mercury or lead - they are just bad for you, especially when inhaled.)

it's what i said before, that it is toxic...

it can be replaced with less toxic rounds, like wolframe heads... but it woun't, because US uses DU rounds from 1991 desert storm war, it passed Balkans War, Afganistan and again Operation Iraq Freedom...

these cheaters (US government) that want to use DU rounds on abrams tanks, did biggest trick in the world, why do you think russian tanks can't avoid being destroyed from one shell?

While I'm not making a judgement call on DU, I find it odd you call it "cheating"...

Is the US suppose to just enemy tanks pound on their very expensive Abrams?

[MontyVCB 0]

thats a good point, no one is going to listen to us, so why is there a point in discussing it?

[walker 0]

Hi all

To begin with this is what the UK Ministry of Defence have to say:

Quote[/b] ]ACTION ON ENTERING CONTAMINATED AREA OR CLOSE TO DU-STRUCK AFV

8. Monitoring. Dose rates near DU munitions are low and most personnel do not need monitoring. Those who handle DU munitions on a regular basis (e.g. tank crews and EOD personnel) or are likely to find themselves in close proximity to 'unboxed' DU munitions (e.g. REME turret crews) are to be issued with Thermoluminescent Dosimeters (TLDs), as supplied by DRPS complete with instructions for use. Sensitive low level monitoring (rather than NBC) equipment is required to check whether a strike is caused by DU. Some UK units (and possibly US Forces) have this equipment and may be deployed to monitor suspected DU strikes as necessary. It is recommended that databases be created at unit level where appropriate to monitor and record TLD readings. Individual readings should be recorded as per paragraph 16 below. This information should be preserved for future use after operations and their medical and personal records annotated as appropriate.

9. Recognition. If a DU projectile misses the target it may eventually come to rest on the surface and be recognised thus: a. MBT Projectiles. These will take the form of a long thin rod, pointed at one end, with short stubby fins on the other (although the latter may become detached by passing through a soft target). They will look like brass (US) or be black (UK). The projectile may also be broken up into segments. If the projectile passes through a soft target (e.g. canvas) it may leave a circular or star-shaped hole. The exit hole will be slightly larger than the entry. A hard target struck by DU will emit a much brighter flash than normal, usually with a greenish tinge. Impact will result in DU dust settling on the target exterior and in the immediate area, and, if penetrated, inside the target. DU dust looks like soot or lumps of charcoal. It may, over time, develop a green and/ or yellow tinge. b. Ground Attack Aircraft Projectiles. These are about 4 inches long and half an inch in diameter, pointed at one end. They may still be in their windshield (similar to a MBT round sabot) when their diameter will be about one inch.

10. Nevertheless, it will often be difficult to know when an AFV has been struck by DU shot. It should therefore be assumed on encountering struck AFVs that the shot was DU and suitable precautions taken against DU dust as detailed below, until the vehicle can be surveyed for DU contamination.

11. Avoidance of Contact. Personnel should not touch, pick up or retain souvenirs from struck AFVs or DU fragments, unless ordered to do so as part of an authorised clean-up operation. When doing so, they must use a shovel or similar implement as fragments can also be very sharp. Note that the discarded sabots from DU rounds may occasionally be very slightly contaminated. There is no significant health risk, but hands should be washed after handling sabot fragments.

12. Personnel should not climb onto or into vehicles or structures possibly hit by DU rounds unless required to do so. Personnel should avoid the surrounding area by at least 50m and attempt to stay upwind of fires involving DU, such as AFV casualties. Above all, smoking, eating or drinking should not be conducted near a target struck by DU.

13. Entry into DU Contaminated Areas. When it is necessary to enter DU contaminated areas, exposed skin is to be covered and especially any exposed wounds. If practicable, NBC rubber gloves or leather gloves and a dust mask, such as Mask, Air Filtering Disposable (NSN 4240-99-156-3608) should be worn. If no mask is readily available, a handkerchief, shemaugh or sweat rag (wet better than dry) should be used to cover nose and mouth. Full NBC IPE is not necessary unless prolonged dust-raising activities are to be carried out, such as extensive repair or vehicle recovery activities. As little time as practicable should be spent on the task, attempting to keep general dust disturbance to a minimum. As soon as possible after task completion, dust should be brushed off clothing in a controlled and marked site, any nose/mouth and glove protection being maintained until contaminated clothing has been removed. Outer clothing should be changed at the first convenient opportunity and laundered in the normal way before being worn again. Hands should then be washed before eating, drinking or smoking.

14. When operational conditions dictate that DU contaminated areas must be entered immediately, or when the wearing of IPE is not possible, dust-raising activities should be kept to a minimum as far as possible. Damp cloths or similar should be used to wipe down and decontaminate surfaces. Whenever practicable, precautions should be taken to limit the spread of DU dust when moving items that may be contaminated. Decontamination, covering the equipment with a tarpaulin or sealing the contamination in place with paint can be considered.

15. Medical. Wounds that may contain DU must be cleaned at the earliest opportunity under running water and covered with a dry dressing. The Surgeon General's Department has disseminated separate medical instructions to medical staff. Medical staff should, if practicable, wear filter masks, plastic aprons and double-layered surgical gloves. Apron and gloves should be changed between patients. Patients should be wrapped in a blanket for transport. Contaminated clothing should be cut off and bagged.

16. Recording. Personnel that may have been contaminated with DU are to have that fact annotated in their medical and personal records. After the operation, they are to be advised by DRPS of their access to biological monitoring.

Source

http://www.mod.uk/issues/depleted_uranium/gulf_safety_instructions.htm

As you can see this makes explicit the risks of DU once it forms an Uranium Oxide Dust. It also makes clear that ingestion is deadly. Witness the 50m exclusion zone.

I do hope the myth of DU is safe is finaly exploded.

It is not true that:

Quote[/b] ]Depleted uranium = depleted of radioactivity (to a large degree.)

Its not radiation that does damage, its that its one of the heavy, toxic metals (like mercury or lead - they are just bad for you, especially when inhaled.)

Non Depleted radium puts out lots of Beta and Gamma radiation. Those as you remember from school physics clases are the radiation that pentrates clothing and in the case gamma even layers of lead.

In Depleted The type of radiation has changed it is Alpha radiation.

Gamma is the eqivalent of shotgun pellets. One pellet its own does nothing much it will make you shout oww! unless it gets you in the eye, in fact you get hit by gama all the time, but lots will kill like a blast from a shotgun.

Beta is about the equivalent of a bullet. Its speed and mass is what kills you and it can go a long way an will pass through a lot to reach you.

Alpha particles which one should liken to a large office block are only measurable up close. They have more total energy than both beta and Gamma being bigger but do not travel so far because they are so massive. Outside your body your dead skin will protect you from anything but porolonged contact.

Inside your body is a totaly diferent kettle of fish. There it can get real intimate with the DNA in your cells thousands of them. After bashing those cells about, and remember it is the radiactive equivalent of a block of flats being dropped on your cells, you will have some mutate to cancer cells. It is just mathmatics the longer a particle of DU is stuck in your body the longer it has to cause cancer. Maths like death cannot be argued with.

EDIT Mixed my Beta with my Alpha.

Kind Regards Walker

[Gedis 0]

DU is a round to penetrate armor and it was developed not just that it would exist, for that reason, to kill any soviet tank by one hit. You now, that iraqi tanks on desert storm didn't had even new rounds for T-72 gun and what to talk about abrams destruction, but... if they would have the DU rounds(like russians) and used them against coalition tanks(russians haven't done it ever) abrams tanks would be smoked out easely, because 125mm gun is powerful with its basic newest rounds, what to say about DU... but abrams 120mm gun is not so powerful as T-72 125mm gu, so army decided to use DU rounds to prove that 120mm is powerful than 125mm... thats why DU rounds on abrams tanks are necesety, even when they have not DU anti tank rounds, just its not so good DU rounds... so DU rounds are nothing like a cheat...

i think you know, that there is new 120mm gun, mounted on Leopard 2A6, longer and more powerful... it don't need to use DU rounds to prove that it is at least like 125mm gun...

[walker 0]

Hi All

DU is a waste product of the nuclear power industry that they are trying to get rid of. It is cheap if not nearly free. It is very dense so it makes good kinetic rounds since it does not have to be traveling fast to transport a lot of kinetic energy. It is also pyrophoric and self sharpens as it penetrates.

I guess most people want info on what is the effect of inhaled particles of Depleted Uranium Oxide and I have found some on this site

http://www.umrc.net Uranium Medical Research Centre the site is well researched with peer reviewed articles.

Here is the relevant section but have a look at the whole site

Quote[/b] ] Tiny as it is, the 2.5 micron Depleted Uranium Oxide pellet contains 210 billion atoms (2.1 x 10 to the power of 11) of U238. Each year, the pellet will emit an average 32.3 alpha particles. It also contains U234, 235, 236 which together yield an additional 5.3 alpha particles per year. Thus a single pellet of Depleted UO2 will produce a total of 37.6 alpha particles per year.

The 37.6 alpha particles will deliver a radiation dose of 17 rads/year. With an RBE (Relative Biological Effectiveness) factor of 10, the dose rate is 170 rem/year for the surrounding body tissue. In the US, the Code of Federal Regulations regarding energy specifies an annual limit of 0.17 rem/year and a specific limit of 0.5 rem/year for an individual in the general population.

A quick calculation shows one single pellet delivers 1,000 times the annual limit. This number is multiplied by the total number of pellets present in the body. For example, if a single or series of exposures resulted in the presence of 10 pellets then the annual limit is exceeded by 10,000.

Another factor to consider is "permanence". Objects or particles less than 5 micron in diameter are considered respirable, meaning that it is small enough to enter into the lungs and become permanently trapped. If the body does not manage to somehow release it then the radiation is internalized and the dosage is permanent during the individual's lifetime and even remains in their physical remains after death.

Note the 1,000 times the annual limit is for the general public listed above are the same as the levels of 272 times the annual radiation dosage permitted radiation workers by US regulations I was quoting before from my original source a well written paper on DU Exposure in Gulf War Vets

Contamination of Persian Gulf War Veterans and Others by Depleted Uranium by Leonard A. Dietz

Kind Regards Walker

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I do hope the myth of DU is safe is finaly exploded.

It is not true that:

Quote[/b] ]Depleted uranium = depleted of radioactivity (to a large degree.)

Its not radiation that does damage, its that its one of the heavy, toxic metals (like mercury or lead - they are just bad for you, especially when inhaled.)

Non Depleted radium puts out lots of Alpha and Gamma radiation. Those as you remember from school physics clases are the radiation that pentrates clothing and in the case gamma even layers of lead.

In Depleted The type of radiation has changed it is beta radiation.

Walker, I certainly am not saying that depleted uranium is safe, nor especially that DU dust is safe. It isn't. Its dangerous and toxic.

But it IS true that depleted uranium = depleted of radioactivity to a large degree

DU is uranium with significantly reduced proportions of the radioactive isotopes of Uranium.

By DEFINITION that is what it is. It is NOT significantly radioactive. If radioactive substances are ingested, they are dangerous. If toxic materials and heavy metals are ingested they are dangerous. But DU is not radioactive in any amount enough to damage anyone if they dont have it inside their body.

All I wanted to point out was that most uneducated people have a severe phobia of radiation. Stories in newspapers go on about radiation as if it were unnatural or a major health risk. Its not, if it is not ingested.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]DU is a round to penetrate armor and it was developed not just that it would exist, for that reason, to kill any soviet tank by one hit. You now, that iraqi tanks on desert storm didn't had even new rounds for T-72 gun and what to talk about abrams destruction, but... if they would have the DU rounds(like russians) and used them against coalition tanks(russians haven't done it ever) abrams tanks would be smoked out easely, because 125mm gun is powerful with its basic newest rounds, what to say about DU... but abrams 120mm gun is not so powerful as T-72 125mm gu, so army decided to use DU rounds to prove that 120mm is powerful than 125mm... thats why DU rounds on abrams tanks are necesety, even when they have not DU anti tank rounds, just its not so good DU rounds... so DU rounds are nothing like a cheat...

i think you know, that there is new 120mm gun, mounted on Leopard 2A6, longer and more powerful... it don't need to use DU rounds to prove that it is at least like 125mm gun...

Thanks for your input but the US knows already about the abrams weakness to DU rounds from friendly fire, tests, and etc. Furthermore, what is up saying that it's a cheat? Then alot nations cheat (including Russia) because they are not using regular ole' ap( c )rounds (what the US used during WWII for the Sherman) but some form of specialized ammo (Fin Stabilized, Discarding Sabot).

[FireflyPL 0]

ok, so if its so dangerous what do we replace it with? some one has already said that tungsten is not much better, and is still poisonous if breathed in or swallowed   , DU rounds will be around for a while yet, the advantages from a military point of view outweigh the risks

Well there is no alternative. If not heavy metals then chemical warhead would be required, And guess what, chemicals could be even more toxic than DU

it can be replaced with less toxic rounds, like wolframe heads... but it woun't, because US uses DU rounds from 1991 desert storm war, it passed Balkans War, Afganistan and again Operation Iraq Freedom...

Well, you seem to have language problem. Wolfram is Tungsten . So it's also heavy metal and not less toxic than DU .

these cheaters (US government) that want to use DU rounds on abrams tanks, did biggest trick in the world, why do you think russian tanks can't avoid being destroyed from one shell?

I m sorry I just can't understand what you're trying to say. Can you explain it?

[walker 0]

Hi All

Its like this.

Radiation

'Ionizing Radiation' is used as a general term for two types of radiation emitted by radioactive objects.

The first is particle ionizing radiation and consists of 'bits' of the atom that are thrown out in order to gain stability. These 'bits' are listed below.

Alpha particle : Consists of 2 neutrons and 2 protons stuck together. As an alpha particle is quite large and heavy by atomic standards they are also quite feeble and consequently cannot even penetrate a piece of paper or the skin of a human being.

It is for this reason that radioactive substances which emit only alpha radiation are only considered dangerous if you ingest them by eating them, breathing them in, or getting them into cuts or via injection as shrapnel.

Beta Particle : Consists of a high energy electron. These particles fly out of a decaying atom with quite a bit of energy but can be stopped by a sheet of aluminum or perspex. Beta particle emitting substances are a lot more hazardous than Alpha emitting ones becaus they penetrate futher.

Next you have electromagnetic ionizing radiation.

Gamma Radiation  :  Consists of waves similar to light but with much greater energy (200,000 times more approx). Gamma radiation is emitted from decaying radioactive substances in order to stabilize the atom

X Rays are another type of electromagnetic ionizing radiation.

The Problem

For now ignore its heavy metal poisoning effects they are not the issue I am dealing with here.

DU is safe(ish) if its in a big lump

DU is not safe if it becomes aerosolised.

It becomes aerosolised when it hits a tank.

Because it is a fine oxidised dust it gets blown on the wind.

This means it gets spread a long distance from the initial site, it looks, acts and moves just like dust; because that is what it has become.

This means if kids play in the dust, which all kids do, even you did, they get it on their hands under their finger nails and they breath it in. They go eat food, pick their snotty little noses, poke their ears, rub their eyes and scratch their s**ty little backsides.

It gets onto and into plants you eat.

It gets into animals that eat the plants. You then eat the meat, it gets in you.

If you have a cut; say your fixing the engine of your car or HMVEE or Tank and the spanner slips, you cut your hand or graze your knucles, grease and oil in your engine have been contaminated with the dust, it gets into the cut.

The dust blows into your eyes.

You track it into the kitchen or the latrine (toilet paper you wipe your a*se on has dust from the air on it)

Each of the above are methods of ingestion.

Ingested DU emits BIG alpha particles straight into your living cells, cause it is inside you, there is no skin or clothes to protect you.

According to the US Institute for Molecular Medicine: "If even one particle of uranium oxide, of less than five micrometers(microns), is trapped in the pulmonary system, the lungs and surrounding tissues can be exposed over a year up to 272 times the annual radiation dosage permitted radiation workers by US regulations."

One "hot particle" in the lungs is equivalent, for the nearest cells, to exposure to an X-ray every hour of every day for the rest of the victim’s life.

Five micrometers(microns) is a spec of dust. Upon impact, the DU core partially vaporizes producing uranium oxide in particulates of between 0.5 and 5 microns(micrometers) in size.

Consider a particle in between your teeth.

Or lodged in your sinuses via eyes or nose or ears.

Or say in your kidneys

Or breathed in to your lungs after an 18 month stint in Iraq

Or loads of them metabolised from food flowing in your blood through your bone marrow.

Or in that cut.

Why else would National Lead Industries in New York be shut down during the 1980’s because it accidentally released into the environment only 375 grams of DU, the same amount that is contained in only one of the munitions rounds fired by the U.S. and NATO in Kosovo and Yugoslavia or the Gulf War I and II, than if it were dangerous?

Kind Regards Walker

[FerretFangs 0]

I've been to the Persian Gulf twice, I haved handeled DU on a daily basis as shielding from ( really dangerous ) radioactive isotopes. My brother has been to Iraq four times in two years. Nearly all my friends and family, and dozens of our mutual aquaintances throughout the government, and military have been are there, and will probably be returning. By your reasoning we should all be sick, dead, or dying. But as yet, no serious problems including birth defects have been seen. So are we just lucky...?

[walker 0]

Hi FerretFangs

Yes while handling none Aerosolized DU you are reasonably safe, unless you drop a shell on your foot, then it might break your toe.

FerretFangs I am quoting from military and peer reviewed scientific sources, including Nobel Prize winners for their research into nuclear medicine.

Places like this the UK Ministry of Defence advice to soldiers dealing with tanks destroyed by DU rounds:

http://www.mod.uk/issues/depleted_uranium/gulf_safety_instructions.htm

And this a paper co written by Dr. Asaf Durakovic who was Chief of Nuclear Medicine at the veterans' hospital in Wilmington Delaware.

http://rsna2004.rsna.org/rsna200....4408249

Let me put it simply for you.

Big lumps of DU outside your body are reasonably safe.

Little itty bits of DU inside your body will give you cancer.

For a simple test if you are close to DU and have a Geiger counter handy. It needs to be DU without cladding, most DU armour is cladded.

Put Gieger about a meter away. You will not be getting much more than background radiation.

Now put the geiger counter right up next to the DU suddenly it is clicking a whole lot more. That clicking you will hear is those big fat Alpha particles, they do not travel far they are so big they even get stoped by air but inside your body they do not have to travel far.

Kind Regards Walker

[Placebo 29]

Two DU threads merged into one, the more recent conversation started here

[MontyVCB 0]

DU is a round to penetrate armor and it was developed not just that it would exist, for that reason, to kill any soviet tank by one hit. You now, that iraqi tanks on desert storm didn't had even new rounds for T-72 gun and what to talk about abrams destruction, but... if they would have the DU rounds(like russians) and used them against coalition tanks(russians haven't done it ever) abrams tanks would be smoked out easely, because 125mm gun is powerful with its basic newest rounds, what to say about DU... but abrams 120mm gun is not so powerful as T-72 125mm gu, so army decided to use DU rounds to prove that 120mm is powerful than 125mm... thats why DU rounds on abrams  tanks are necesety, even when they have not DU anti tank rounds, just its not so good DU rounds... so DU rounds are nothing like a cheat...

i think you know, that there is new 120mm gun, mounted on Leopard 2A6, longer and more powerful... it don't need to use DU rounds to prove that it is at least like 125mm gun...

how you can even compare a T-72 to a M1A1 or M1A2 is laughable, just beacuse  a tank has a bigger gun does not mean its better  , this is not WW2, when the shell leaves the barrel of a tank its a mere metal spike with fins, i don't think 5mm is going to make much difference. not to mention the tank crews in the iraqi army were poorly trained compared to the crew of a US tank.  you also seem to forget the M1A2 and A2 can destroy targets from up to 3 miles away, while moving, the T-72 can't  

[Gedis 0]

well yes, M1A1 or A2 or even Sep is not from same level as T-72, basicaly it was design to kill tanks like T-72, but these versions are more powerful. In comparing we should talk about M1 Abrams, which was something T-72 could destroy, besides M1A1 in the first gulf war was not much, ~60 new modefication tanks, other were M1 Abrams

about bigger doesn't mean better, yup, du rounds prove it, but if there were no du rounds, so what? abrams mighty would be throun away like dust...

[MontyVCB 0]

i very much doubt it, the Abrams out classes the T-72 in every aspect. firepower, protection, speed, mobility etc

[Jinef 2]

para - T72s in open desert against a modern force = death.

If however the iraqis concealed shit loads of T72s in buildings, defilades facing junctions etc and properly hid them the only way to find out where they are would be infantry - AK snipers and lot's of casualties. However Iraq didn't put up a fight.

[BlackScorpion 0]

Check this link, especially the links at the bottom of the page.

[MontyVCB 0]

thats a good site, has some very useful infomation in there

[Gedis 0]

heh, find picture which self speaks about DU dangers...

NBC is egzamining destroyed Iraqi T tanks

i remember there was a picture of two knocked out abrams with radiation sign next to them...

[FerretFangs 0]

Incidently, that's also what's worn when investigating airliner crash sites.

[Ironsight 1]

heh, find picture which self speaks about DU dangers...

NBC is egzamining destroyed Iraqi T tanks

i remember there was a picture of two knocked out abrams with radiation sign next to them...

Those guys don't wear NBC suits. They have to wear gask masks too if you want to be protected against NBC. Those are just dust masks since it's not very healthy to inhale ash and stuff like that

[Przezdzieblo 0]

Gedis,

there are many no-DU rounds that can easy penetrate old T72Ms and few no-DU rounds, which can be dangerous for new T90s - and Western tanks. DU provides good penetration and more piro effects than tungsten, but new tungsten rounds can make a deeper hole than (in)famous "Silver Bullet".

Talking about DU as a cheat is a little... well, nevermind. Just an absurd for me. Shooting plumbum into head of the guys, who cannot see the shooters, using tanks versus poor equipped with AT weapons infantry, using AT-helis against tank calumns without protection of AA systems is a cheat too? Sorry, but RL is not a game nor high-noon western.

[red oct 2]

they aren't even NBC suits. they are only made of cotton so i doubt they would keep you safe from radiation. last summer i was working at a chemicle landfill, the waist wasn't at all dangerous, it was mostly nonrecyclable metals like titanium, iron, aluminium. when ever i had work near or in the waist i had to ware those exact type of suits.