Pope Given Last Rites

[BlackScorpion 0]

May I remind you that Italian media also reported that Pope fell to coma, which, IIRC, hasn't happened...

This is kinda hard thing... He wants to live, many pray for his life, he has done so much...

But much has happened to him. It's a battle to even stay alive for him now. So he kinda deserves (don't get me wrong here, sounds harsh but I don't mean it that way...) to die, he has done so much good and, as I stated before, he obviously suffers...

And my comment to his will to stay alive... And I thought it was Vatican wanting to keep him alive... Maybe just reading too much. Especially Dan Brown's books... OK I only read one.

I dunno what to hope... Sad, of course, this is.

[nephilim 0]

honestly i hope he passes the spoon..

hes jsut too old he deserves a rest

szerokiej drogi karol!

[miles teg 1]

Overall whether he wants to live or die is a moot point.  Ultimately he will die whether he wants to or not.  We all do.

I only pray that if he dies, that he does so in a dignified and peaceful manner.  My grandparents were fortunate enough to have what I call "beautiful deaths" and it truly is a blessing to have a dignified death with loved ones and friends around you and with an easy passing.  I can only hope and pray that I may be able to meet my end on this earth with such composure and dignity.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[BlackScorpion 0]

The bad thing about being The Pope: The job will kill you!

[gandalf the white 0]

Scorp, I don't see anybody laughing...

well, if it's truly "over" for the pope I guess now is the time to show some sympathy, no matter what your opinion about religion is, he was still a human, and a symbol for many people.

rest in peace, you deserve it.

[CAPAIRMAN 0]

They just finished saying the rosery. I have been watching for over 4 hours now on live tv. The crowds in the square are huge, waiting fo the popes window shutters to be closed, signifying his death. My dad saw the pope during his '78(i think its '78) tour of the US, and it will be a shame to see him go. I'm going backto watching.

[shinRaiden 0]

Dan Brown's got an axe to grind and pockets to line. Put it on the shelf.

Don't have cable here, so I'm stuck with just the online wire services, since none wants to give freewebcast's even with ad's.

Nobody except idiots mourned the passing of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc. The pope is certainly no tyrant, and he as an individual, priest, and pontiff has done a great deal of good will for the entire world, as well as inspiring others to do likewise.

If you have credible and reputable evidence that he is actually an evil agent of darkness, and that that information has immediate relevance atm, post it in full. Otherwise stop knocking the guy because of what a prior pontiff or insubordinate priest may have done. He's suffered enough already, no need to be kicked and insulted as he passes.

The premise of the pontificate is the belief that they continue the ecclesiastical mission of St. Peter, who was according to interpretation to stand as a foundation rock and hold the spiritual keys to the church. John Paul II imho has done an excellent job of striving to fill that role and mantle, despite the turmoil of world events that occured during the term of his mortal ministry.

Perhaps the greatest criticisms have come from people impatient for secular responses to what the catholic church, and many other denominations for that matter, believe to be spiritual concerns.

The real test of his legacy of course will be to see what direction is taken by the Cardinals and the next Pontiff. John Paul II has been such a commanding presence for the past several decades that he will leave very large shoes to fill for the next pontiff. Technically slippers re the vestments, but I digress.

Re the living will. The position is that none has the right or place to deprive a living being of basic medical or life-sustaining support. Also there is nothing wrong with unplugging a dead person. Notice the distinction, so long has he lives, he has requested that every effort be made to sustain his life. But when he passes, he will be gone so it's okay to unplug the body that remains. Terri Schiavo was not dead, that's where the outrage was.

Relating to this though is the aspect of finality. By electing to remain in his apartments rather than be transported to the hospital, he's showing that he understands his time is drawing to a close, but it's still only God's place to decide when to take him home.

[BlackScorpion 0]

Scorp, I don't see anybody laughing...

Well, it wasn't meant as a joke that would make people laugh like hell. But, it basically is a fact. I haven't heard of a Pope that has resigned... It's a lifetime job. Some do it better than others. Current did it very well, maybe best of all time.

I'm getting confused with all these news. Some say he is dead, som say he's "just" getting worse...

When it happens, may he rest in peace. He has truly deserved it.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Re the living will. The position is that none has the right or place to deprive a living being of basic medical or life-sustaining support. Also there is nothing wrong with unplugging a dead person. Notice the distinction, so long has he lives, he has requested that every effort be made to sustain his life. But when he passes, he will be gone so it's okay to unplug the body that remains. Terri Schiavo was not dead, that's where the outrage was.

Well, what else is new? Frozen embryos and vegetables have always been more important to than lives of thousands perfectly healthy individuals which happen to be Iraqis or convicted criminals waiting for execution...

[SFWanabe 0]

Godspeed Holy Father..........

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]

... the position ...

I was referring to the position of the Catholic church, which universally condemns all euthanasia, any abortions, population management, birth control, war, or other such involuntary termination or abrogation of the mortal existance of the human soul.

While I personally may differ on minor technical points of doctrine, I do agree with the premise that life is not to be determined by any measure of so-called mortal "quality-of-life".

For example, the Jewish population in germany created an uncomfortable emotional and psychological pressure on some german peoples, as well as allegations of tainting the gene-pool via intermarriage, as there are some hereditary genetic tendancies found in some parts of the Jewish population. Obviously to protect the quality of life for the particular german populations this imminent threat needed to be immediately eradicated, right?

Judge Blackmun in Roe v. Wade (a case argued under false pretenses and suborned witnesses btw) commented that as 'scholars, academics, philosephers of religion, and doctors of medicine have not been able to come to any consensus of what life is, it most certainly is not the place of the (US Supreme) Court to decide that.' (paraphased.) The net effect was to say that as the courts were incapable of determining the existance or relevance of a 'soul', they are solely bound to adjudicate re matters of tangible observation. Thus, if people like Terri Schiavo are more of a fiscal liability to an aggrieved party than is quantifiablely remuneratable, then the clear result must be to pull the plug.

This goes further though into the ramifications of the nihilistic doctines held by some that as humans are physically capable and mentally competent to interfere in the evolutionally process, that that ability to interfere presents itself as the greatest "imminent danger/WMD" the world has ever seen, and immediate action must be taken to stop the potential abuse. So strictly speaking from a humanist perspective, if it requires more juice to keep Terri Schiavo or the Pope alive than they can ever hope to replace back into the 'natural' environment, it's better to hasten turning them into fertilizer.

Notice though that there is zero consideration whatsoever here of the strongly held beliefs of many that the human essence or 'soul' is uniquely distinct from the phyiscal body. Of course that is not quantifiable presently by sceptical science. But you've got two choices, either eradicate all the 'obviously' mentally deficient 'believers in silly notions' because of their genetic defiencies or danger of indoctrination - which incidently would likely have a significant impact on global warming due to the massive decomposition - or remain in the uncomfortable postion of continued 'living' (er, for you 'dwelling' or 'residing') next door to 'crazed' Bible, Koran, Torah, or even Rig Veda thumpers, who have *shock* opinions that differ from yours.

I'm sure I could make as many reasons for the institutionalization of liberals as you could for the incarceration of conservatives. Moot point. The embryo issue comes down to two camps, either there is a soul - automaticly granting legal status, or if no soul just play darts with a calendar to determine when the lump of tissue is no longer exclusively the property of the mother and becomes an independently recognized legal entity.

Vegetables are generally tasty. Jeffrey Dahmer had opinions about other dinner choices. But you don't see somebody sitting in Old Sparky for eating a tofuburger on rye. Afaik nobody seriously argues that a head of iceberg lettuce has anymore inside its head than tasty leaves.

As for the iraqis, some are glad for regime change, some are not. Gee, what a coincidence, division there too, I thought it only existed in the US. How dare they have opinions, the little ingrates... What about the ground-level protests and envoy to Jordan 'recalled for consultations' regarding percived under-the-table Jordaninan support for some Sunni-affiliate suicide bombers?

Capital punishment is obviously a whole 'nother 900lb gorilla, but that's no problem for the courts since they've ruled that they'll just pass down what ever feels good atm, or pass the buck to someone else to avoid the prickly difficulties of principles which might inadvertently reflect something so atrocious as *shock* moral values.

-- back on topic re the Pope specifically --

I had a friend who passed away in a similar medical situation several years ago. She seemed perfectly healthy going in for major back surgery, developed an infection in postop (due to non-disclosure that she had a repressed immune system due to the flu or something at the time), which rapidly flared overnight into septic shock and kidney shutdown. Unfortunately, at that point things quickly become medically messy, and there's not a lot of options available. She passed away within about 48 hours of the flareup, but was peacefully unconcious throughout it all.

Quote[/b] ]

On Friday morning, John Paul asked aides to read him the biblical passage describing the 14 stations of the Way of the Cross, the path that Christ took to his Crucifixion and burial, Navarro-Valls told reporters. The pope followed attentively and made the sign of the cross, he said.

John Paul also asked that scripture of the so-called "Third Hour" be read to him. The passage is significant because according to tradition, Christ died at three o'clock in the afternoon.

"This is surely an image I have never seen in these 26 years," the usually unflappable Navarro-Valls said.

Choking up, he walked out of the room.

Regardless of your faith or denomination, I think all people can look up the example and mission he served, as well as the principles he advocated and lived - even if you disagree with the doctrine - as beneficial to the world and worthy of emulation.

Along those lines, a nun at a holy site in Israel I visited once commented that although the authenticity of the site's location was uncertain, the fact still remained that the purpose of the memorial was to remind people of the event and purpose remembered at that location, and to help fortify and direct people.

So it is with Karol Wojtyla. Whether you accept him as your pope, or just some old geezer that's on TV a lot, he has had a remarkable influence for good, and more importantly for inspiring other people to do likewise. For his good works and fervent faith I as a non-catholic non-protestant Christian say thank you, God-speed, and God Bless Karol Wojtyla.

[Bernadotte 0]

The embryo issue comes down to two camps, either there is a soul - automaticly granting legal status, or if no soul just play darts with a calendar to determine when the lump of tissue is no longer exclusively the property of the mother and becomes an independently recognized legal entity.

And what if the embryos are Iraqi?  In fact, what if US forces had suspected Saddam of hiding in a frozen embryo storage facility instead of a residential appartment block.  I'm sure you recall the incident.  Then, how would you have felt about the decision to seal off the neighbourhood and drop four 1-ton bombs, killing a dozen well-established innocent Iraqi souls?

-- back on topic re the Pope specifically --

...all people can look up the example and mission he served, as well as the principles he advocated and lived

...beneficial to the world and worthy of emulation.

...a remarkable influence for good

...his good works

I'm not necessarily doubting you, but would you mind being a little bit more specific?  

In fact, I think we would all appreciate finding out from someone apparently as familiar as you

some of the ways that Karol Wojtyla was the remarkable influence for good you say he was.

Thanks.

[Messiah 2]

how the fack did we get to discussing saddam hussain and iraq in a thread about the Pope...

it seems a little insensitive to start talking politics and religion in a thread where we should be more inclined to post words of sympathy and discuss his life (assuming this is the latter stages of it)

come on guys...

[shinRaiden 0]

The links to his bio and history have been posted previously, if you do not care to check prior posts then it's pointless to repost them.

Specifically, I would like to hear more about his earlier ministry, before he was made Cardinal. Any refs?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

The Pope is a controversial figure who has spoken very publicly on issues fundamental to many peoples value systems so some criticism even now is inevitable, and personally i dont feel a very great connection with the Pope, but i still felt pretty sorry for him when he tried to speak to the crowd recently and couldnt. Even the most influential leaders in the world become pathetically weak with time and thats likely to evoke a certain pathos.

shinRaiden-

Quote[/b] ]So strictly speaking from a humanist perspective, if it requires more juice to keep Terri Schiavo or the Pope alive than they can ever hope to replace back into the 'natural' environment, it's better to hasten turning them into fertilizer.

I dont think you are speaking from a strictly humanist prespective (as a strict humanist), but how is anyone supposed to know what 'juice' in this scenario indicates or connotes?

shinRaiden-

Quote[/b] ]Of course that (..soul) is not quantifiable presently by sceptical science

Do you advocate another kind of science? .

Science permits the existence of things which are unquantifiable, such as how much 'juice' someone is putting back into society. Rather than the stark duality (or cruel arithmetic) you paint humanism to be, i would say it is replete with ambiguity and mystery whereas Judeao-Christian religion tends to furnish a stark duality of meaning.

[Bernadotte 0]

it seems a little insensitive to start talking politics and religion in a thread where we should be more inclined to post words of sympathy and discuss his life (assuming this is the latter stages of it)

come on guys...

I totally agree and would not have responded to that part of shinRaiden's post had you chosen to arrive 12 minutes (or even 2 hrs) earlier.

The links to his bio and history have been posted previously, if you do not care to check prior posts then it's pointless to repost them.

I was asking your opinion, assuming you had one.  My mistake.

[shinRaiden 0]

The Blessed Sounds of Silence

Quote[/b] ]

For the first time in his 26-year pontificate, Pope John Paul II failed to come to his window Easter Monday, unable to deliver even a silent blessing to the crowd in St. Peter's Square. The day before, he did appear with an Easter Sunday address in hand — but when he opened his mouth, he was unable to speak. A tearful crowd watched as he tried repeatedly, in obvious pain, to deliver his prepared blessing, before slumping back into his chair — banging his fist in clear frustration.

But the pilgrims gathered at St. Peter's — and millions more watching across the world — received greater spiritual nourishment from his silent Easter witness than they ever could have from the text of his remarks. They know that, far from burdening on the Church, this time when John Paul is physically weakest may well be the greatest of his papacy. Here is why: The principal task of the pope is not the effective management of the Church bureaucracy — it is to serve as an effective witness for Christ in the world. John Paul does this more eloquently today, through his silent suffering, than he ever did with words. It does not really matter if he can use his voice intelligibly — or at all. By carrying on, despite his afflictions, he stands as a living rebuke to our utilitarian culture — and a living witness to the value of every life, especially the elderly and infirm.

In carrying on, John Paul also offers us a precious gift: his suffering. It is hard to see him suffer. But this pope does not ask for relief from his sufferings. To the contrary, a bishop once told me that the pope used to refuse medication precisely because it interfered with his suffering. He has a mystical relationship with his suffering, offering it up for us, and for the whole world — a world that increasingly embraces the culture of death, euthanasia, and the abortion of disabled fetuses, because it mistakenly believes there is no greater moral good than relief from suffering. In bearing his pain, John Paul says to us, in union with the Apostle Paul, "I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."

We need his example in this world filled with suffering. We need the lesson he is teaching us: that suffering is not useless; that it can have meaning, and salvific power. As John Paul wrote in his 1984 encyclical On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering, once this meaning and power are discovered, suffering actually becomes "a source of joy" because "faith in sharing the suffering of Christ brings with it the interior certainty that the suffering person...is serving, like Christ, the salvation of his brothers and sisters. Therefore he is carrying out an irreplaceable service."

It was one thing to hear such words delivered eleven years ago by a vigorous John Paul — the avid outdoorsman who loved to ski and climb mountains. It is quite another to see these words lived by a suffering John Paul, who has been forced by age and infirmity to give up such beloved pursuits — and who now struggles simply to say a Mass or deliver a homily. Today, as he struggles on, John Paul infuses a quarter-century of teaching with new credibility — and new meaning.

In his book The Problem of Pain, C.S. Lewis wrote, "You would like to know how I behave when I am experiencing pain, not just writing books about it....I will tell you; I am a great coward." Most of us are. So our world needs this struggling pope, who inspires millions of frail and elderly people. We need his example, which affirms the continuing value of every human person who feels isolated by illness and abandoned by a society. And we need to be reminded that we all have responsibilities to the weakest among us — to help them live in dignity, and to value the gift of their presence, whatever their condition, at every stage of their lives.

In that encyclical over a decade ago, the Holy Father said this about the suffering of others: "When the body is gravely ill, totally incapacitated, and the person is almost incapable of living and acting, all the more do interior maturity and spiritual greatness become evident, constituting a touching lesson to those who are healthy and normal." Today, as his own body grows increasingly incapacitated, and as he becomes less capable of living and acting, it is John Paul's spiritual greatness that is becoming all the more evident — and he is teaching the world anew.

How blessed we are to have such a teacher in our midst; to receive the precious gift of his suffering; and to be living witnesses to what may one day be considered the greatest days of the greatest papacy in history. John Paul was once asked why he does not retire, and is said to have given this reply: "Because Christ did not come down from the Cross." The Lord will take him from us when He is ready. 'Til then, give us this silent pope.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

A little insensitive, perhaps. For what its worth he has my respects, i only wish all old people had such care at the end of their lives.

But its kind of hard to discuss his life without discussing religion or politics dont you agree (that is without being totally inane).

[shinRaiden 0]

The Pope of Popes

Quote[/b] ]

HE HAD received the last rites and the Vatican was openly preparing for his passing. But even as the life ebbed from his afflicted body yesterday, Pope John Paul II kept fighting.

As the world prayed for the dying pontiff and cardinals began to fly to Rome to prepare for the succession, the Vatican announced that the Pope had appointed 17 bishops and archbishops and accepted the resignation of six others.

Having declined further hospital treatment, the 84-year-old pontiff lay in his private quarters attended by four doctors, a cardiologist and two nurses. He had suffered heart failure and septic shock, his kidneys were failing and he was struggling to breathe.

“They were giving him oxygen through the nose. I blessed him and he tried to make the sign of the Cross,†Edmund Szoka, the Polish-American governor of Vatican City, said.

The Pope remained conscious until the evening. He received several senior cardinals, participated in early-morning Mass and asked aides to read him the biblical passage describing how Christ’s body was taken down from the Cross, wrapped in a linen shroud and placed in His tomb.

Outside a crowd which, by midnight, had swollen to around 70,000 gathered in of St Peter’s Square and gazed tearfully at the third-floor window where the final act of the Pope’s extraordinary life was playing out. They listened to the latest developments on radios and mobile telephones. Each report swept through the sea of people — the Pope was unconscious; his heart had stopped beating; a Vatican denial that he had died.

Monsignor Angelo Comastri, the Vicar General for Vatican City, told the crowd: “This evening or this night, Christ opens the door to the Pope.â€

Alvaro Alvarez Escobar, a Mexican priest in the square said: “I’m not here to pray for the Pope to get well. I’m not here to pray for the Pope to die. I’m here to pray to God to do what he has to do.â€

The windows of the Pope’s apartment lit up an otherwise darkened Apostolic Palace. Most in the square stood still and silent after prayers ended.

The Vatican had made no attempt to disguise the seriousness of the situation. Joaquín Navarro-Valls, the Pope’s normally impassive spokesman, fought back tears as he announced that his condition was very grave. Cardinal Andrzej Maria Deskur, of Poland, a close friend, said that the Pope was “fading away serenelyâ€.

Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the Vicar of Rome, who has the task of announcing the Pope’s death, said that the pontiff had “completely left himself in God’s handsâ€.

Around the world, millions of Catholics waited and prayed. From the Holy Land to the Indonesian island of Nias, devastated by Monday’s earthquake, from the few remaining Christian churches of Iraq to the teeming congregations of Africa and Latin America, they prayed for his recovery or for a peaceful end to his suffering.

The White House said that President and Mrs Bush were praying for the Pope, and that the world’s concern was a “testimony to his greatnessâ€.

In an Istanbul prison cell, Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turkish extremist who tried to assassinate the Pope in 1981, was praying for his “brotherâ€, according to his lawyer. The two men have long since made their peace. Thousands gathered outside the basilica in the Polish town of Wadowice, where Karol Wojtyla was born in 1920, many weeping.

As a mark of respect, Italian politicians stopped campaigning in important regional elections tomorrow.

The death of a Pope is traditionally verified by the Cardinal Chamberlain, in this case Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo of Spain. There follow nine days of official mourning, with the funeral taking place between the fourth and sixth days. It is not yet known whether the Pope has asked to be buried in Rome, in accordance with tradition, or Poland, where he did so much to destroy communism.

In the interregnum, power in the Vatican passes not to the Secretary of State or any other senior official but to the chamberlain or camerlengo.

There is no post-mortem. The chamberlain seals up the papal properties, including his private apartment and his summer residence at Castelgandolfo and breaks the papal “Fisherman’s†ring and seal.

The conclave to elect the next pope has to begin not less than 15 days and not more than 20 days after the Pope’s death, allowing time for cardinals to assemble from all over the world. Their deliberations part horse-trading, part divine inspiration, can take hours, days or weeks before a puff of white smoke from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel announces that they have reached a decision.

Walter Veltroni, the Mayor of Rome, said that he was planning to erect a tented city for the thousands of young people who are pouring into Rome to witness the transition.

[somebloke 0]

In the words of Joseph Stalin, 1 death is a tragedy. 1 Million Deaths is a statistic.

While we're all going on about whether the pope is popping his clogs or not, roughly 400,000 people in the world already have.

Just thought i'd mention that

I don't normally discuss stuff like this but people are getting all Stressed and over-religious about other's expressing their views on this "delicate" matter.

Why don't you just discuss the "happy points" of the Pope's life, and stop squabbling.

[Bordoy 0]

In the words of Joseph Stalin, 1 death is a tragedy. 1 Million Deaths is a statistic.

While we're all going on about whether the pope is popping his clogs or not, roughly 400,000 people in the world already have.

Just thought i'd mention that

I don't normally discuss stuff like this but people are getting all Stressed and over-religious about other's expressing their views on this "delicate" matter.

Why don't you just discuss the "happy points" of the Pope's life, and stop squabbling.

Well said

[walker 0]

Edit

I should not realy have said that

Kind Regards Walker

[Gordy 0]

I would like to say sth but I'm affraid if you're tolerant enough. I don't mean disrespect to any of you or Pope himself. It is just what I feel at this very moment.

I am pissed off, because the whole wide world actually stopped to watch an old man dying. People like me & my wife are slaved by all media to watch or listen to it. No choice whatsoever.

The saddest thing is that it happens every day. I saw this happen many times before. This particular case saddens me no more than other.

One more thing - He is still alive and this seems like a nonstop TV show which disgusts me even more. Whatever happened to people of latest Tsunami disaster? Did the Iraqi fight stop?

Please, respect my opinion as i respect yours.

[Bordoy 0]

Gordy go watch, ermmmm, Sky Sports News or Bloomberg, lol.

[Gordy 0]

Gordy go watch, ermmmm, Sky Sports News or Bloomberg, lol.

I don't like watching sports but actually taking part. As for bloomberg, they don't say anything I wouldn't know already.