The Middle East part 2

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

moderate Hamas leader

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[theavonlady 2]

moderate Hamas leader

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Billybob's revenge!

[brgnorway 0]

moderate Hamas leader

Isn't that an oxymoron?

So how do you feel about "moderate communists" then?

No such thing you say - once a communist always a communist?

Gorbachov - who was that?

[theavonlady 2]

moderate Hamas leader

Isn't that an oxymoron?

So how do you feel about "moderate communists" then?

No such thing you say - once a communist always a communist?

Gorbachov - who was that?

Are you equating communism as a philosophy as an equivalent to terrorism? Or are you simply equating certain communists who were in charge of regimes that killed, tortured and murdered millions of people over the 20th century to terrorists?

If the latter, what if you could have stopped them before they took power?

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Are you equating communism as a philosophy as an equivalent to terrorism? Or are you simply equating certain communists who were in charge of regimes that killed, tortured and murdered millions of people over the 20th century to terrorists?

Communism isnt' a philosophy - it's a way of government.

However, my example was a bad one but my point was that peace cannot be reached unless you take all things into account - even Hamas!

Hamas is not only a terrorist organisation - but is for the palestinians also the only providor of schools, health service etc. Unfortunately, their military wing is nothing but a terrorist organisation. The political wing is something in between - just like IRA.

Can you imagine a peace deal in the Northern Irland without agreement with IRA?

Quote[/b] ]If the latter, what if you could have stopped them before they took power?

How would I know what path Stalin took?

Point is that the revolution in Russia was not nessecarily a "bad" thing. Not if you belonged to the farming class or the workers class - and most people did!

If it had been possible should we have stopped the french revolution and the storming of the Bastille because of the beheadings of the land owning aristocracy?

Hell no, it was the best thing that could possibly happen!

The result was the start of what we have today - the modern democracy and the rights of the individual!

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Are you equating communism as a philosophy as an equivalent to terrorism? Or are you simply equating certain communists who were in charge of regimes that killed, tortured and murdered millions of people over the 20th century to terrorists?

Communism isnt' a philosophy - it's a way of government.

However, my example was a bad one but my point was that peace cannot be reached unless you take all things into account - even Hamas!

Historical falacy. I believe peace with Italy, Germany and Japan in WWII was not achieved by talking for the most part.

Quote[/b] ]Hamas is not only a terrorist organisation - but is for the palestinians also the only providor of schools, health service etc. Unfortunately, their military wing is nothing but a terrorist organisation. The political wing is something in between - just like IRA.

You are truly naive. Do you think for a second that the political and miltary wings are not fully integrated?

Maybe you believe they even have 2 licensed copies of Quickbooks to handle their separate accounting systems?

Sure.

I'm sure the Nazis built schools in Germany, too. Hardly touched by the thought - more like an excuse, actually.

Quote[/b] ]Can you imagine a peace deal in the Northern Irland without agreement with IRA?

In that particular case, I am not sure, as in, I am not knowledgable enough to qualify the comparison. There are numerous differences, however.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]If the latter, what if you could have stopped them before they took power?

How would I know what path Stalin took?

I suggest you read the Hamas Charter. Now you have no more excuses.

Quote[/b] ]Point is that the revolution in Russia was not nessecarily a "bad" thing. Not if you belonged to the farming class or the workers class - and most people did!

They traded one brutal overlord for the next. And frankly, the Czar could win a congeniality award compared to most of the beasts that ruled communist Russia.

Quote[/b] ]If it had been possible should we have stopped the french revolution and the storming of the Bastille because of the beheadings of the land owning aristocracy?

Was the intention of the French revolution and annihilate another nation?

Quote[/b] ]Hell no, it was the best thing that could possibly happen!

Best? Not exactly, unless you're a big fan of Robespiere. But certainly better in the long run.

Yet I ask you again - are you comparing the French 200 years ago to the Nazi or communist leaders?

Quote[/b] ]The result was the start of what we have today - the modern democracy and the rights of the individual

Read the charter. Dream on.

EDIT: out for the evening.

[Bernadotte 0]

Hamas has not had enough, as they want Israel out of all post-1948 and mandate lands by any means neccessary.

Not all Hamas leaders want to destroy Israel.

The other day I listed 6 reasons to be optimistic.  I wanted to list a 7th reason but I was too lazy to look up one of my earlier posts.  Here it is:

Quote of the month:

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Israel is too strong to defeat and the Palestinians have no choice but to live with the Jewish state in peace.  Let us be frank. We cannot destroy Israel. The practical solution is for us to have a state alongside Israel.

-- Senior Hamas leader Abu Shanab</span>

   

About Abu Shanab:

- most moderate of top 5 leaders in Hamas

- studied in US

- architect of recent ceasefire

My first reaction to Shanab's statement was, I wonder how long it will be before Hamas kills him for saying such a thing.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media...._ap.jpg  Ismail Abu Shanab

Well shinRaiden?  How do you think Israel responded to this moderate Hamas leader?  

hint

The same way one should respond to moderate Nazis.

Really?

And how many moderate Nazis did you slay in a volley of Hellfire missiles after negotiating a ceasefire with them?

In fact, how many hundreds of thousands of Nazis did you rob of their homes, property and nation?

Once again you successfully belittle the suffering of all Holocaust victims with your offensive comparison.  

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Historical falacy. I believe peace with Italy, Germany and Japan in WWII was not achieved by talking for the most part.

Give me a brake Avon - how can you possibly compare the WWII with a "civil war" likethe fight for Palestine/Israel?

Or would you like to use WWII as a setting example for how to solve the Northern Irland conflict, the basque problem, the fight for landless indians in southern America etc.

Yeah, nothing beats real firepower right?

Quote[/b] ]You are truly naive. Do you think for a second that the political and miltary wings are not fully integrated?

......not nessecarily no! Again you could very well use Sinn Fein and IRA as a good example.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure the Nazis built schools in Germany, too. Hardly touched by the thought - more like an excuse, actually.

There's no doubt that Hamas popularity in the palestinian areas are gained because of charitable issues like teaching, health services etc.

For the average palestinian that is proof enough where others miss out such as the PA.

Quote[/b] ]There are numerous differences, however.

Tell me please, I'd be interested to know!

Quote[/b] ]I suggest you read the Hamas Charter. Now you have no more excuses.

Hamas will have to change if (yes even it's charter) if they loose support from the average palestinian. Nothing would be better and it's possible if the alternative (like peace) is viable.

Even though Arafat bombed planes he later made an effort to reach peace - allthough he failed.

Quote[/b] ]They traded one brutal overlord for the next. And frankly, the Czar could win a congeniality award compared to most of the beasts that ruled communist Russia.

Yes, they got something just as bad for a period. But are you seriously comparing post war eastern bloc with the Czar regime? If so I know what I'd choose if I had to and it wouldn't be a life as poverty ridden hungry farmer.

Quote[/b] ]Was the intention of the French revolution and annihilate another nation?

No the example was given to illustrate the problems of future uncertainty. In this case it finally led to something better allthough they had to brake a few eggs in the process.

Quote[/b] ]Yet I ask you again - are you comparing the French 200 years ago to the Nazi or communist leaders?

Not the nazi regime no, but the french revolution and the russian revolution had a few similarities although the latter was about class struggle and the first one about liberal rights of the citizen.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Abbas unharmed in shooting spree  

Mr Abbas insists it was not an attempt on his life

One of the most prominent figures in the Palestinian leadership, Mahmoud Abbas, has escaped injury in a shooting incident in Gaza City.

Armed men shouted angry slogans and shot into the air as Mr Abbas was visiting a mourning tent for Mr Arafat.

Mr Abbas was bundled away by security guards. Two guards were shot and died.

The incident, which has fanned fears of a power struggle after Mr Arafat's death, comes after a date was named for elections to choose his successor.

Elections for the president of the Palestinian Authority are to be held on 9 January.

BBC World News!

No no no, this is not good  

[shinRaiden 0]

And we are suprised why?

[brgnorway 0]

And we are suprised why?

No reason to be surprised. It was to be expected. However, that doesn't mean it isn't depressing - well, maybe not from Israels point of view!

[Bernadotte 0]

A question for anyone who might know:

In 1967, Israel occupied East Jerusalem along with the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights.  Since then, Israel claims to have annexed East Jerusalem.  According to Israel, E. Jerusalem is now an irrevocable part of Israel.

Why haven't the 200,000 Arabs of E. Jerusalem been made citizens of Israel just like the Arabs of other annexed territories were during Israel's earlier expansion?

The government is now debating whether they should even be allowed to vote in the upcoming Palestinian Authority elections.  As the Interior Minister said:

Quote[/b] ]East Jerusalem's Arabs must be allowed to vote in the PA elections since it is intolerable for there to be a large group of people who are not allowed to vote anywhere

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Israeli forces kill Egypt troops

Israeli forces have killed three Egyptian soldiers after mistaking them for Palestinian militants trying to cross into the Gaza Strip.

The three died after a tank opened fire on "suspect silhouettes", Israeli army radio says.

The southern Gaza Strip is the scene of frequent clashes between Israeli troops and Palestinian fighters.

Israeli Deputy Defence Minister Zeev Boim said he regretted Thursday's "grave incident".

The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza says there has been continual friction on the Gaza-Egyptian border between Israeli troops and Palestinian militants trying to smuggle in weapons.

The Israelis have often been accused of firing indiscriminately in the area, our correspondent adds.

The Israeli army has not commented on the incident so far.

An investigation has been launched.

Egypt and Israel have been at peace since 1979

BBC World News

Obviously a very smart move when the middle eastern area is in such peacefull state!

[bn880 5]

Bah, there are no moves in palestine/isr., it's just one big blunder of misjustice and occupation. This is just a continuity of idiocy.

[SPQR 0]

Published today in the french Courrier International, reporting from Yediot Aharonot :

Quote[/b] ]Courrier international - 19 nov. 2004  

ISRAËL - Révélations sur les pratiques macabres des soldats de Tsahal  

Le quotidien Yediot Aharonot, le plus lu en Israël, publie ce vendredi 19 novembre un dossier révélant "les exactions commises par les soldats israéliens sur les corps de militants palestiniens morts". Ces informations ont été communiquées au journal, avec témoignages, photos et enregistrements vidéo ŕ l’appui, par des soldats choqués par le comportement de leurs camarades.  

Il ne s’agit pas de quelques cas isolés : ces pratiques semblent quasi systématiques. Plusieurs unités sont concernées, dont une formée de volontaires ultra-orthodoxes. Selon le témoignage d’un soldat, "vidéos et photos macabres font l’objet d’échanges commerciaux. Les militaires posent ŕ côté des cadavres ou jouent avec des lambeaux humains pour se faire photographier et filmer."

Cette affaire aura sans doute un impact trÄs fort sur l’opinion publique en Israël, souvent peu au courant de ce qui ce passe réellement dans les Territoires occupés. Du côté de l’armée israélienne, le chef d'état-major, le général Moshe Yaalon, a qualifié ces pratiques d'"horribles", affirmant qu’"une enquÄ™te sera ouverte par la police militaire", tandis que le porte-parole de l’armée "a condamné fermement ces faits graves".

En revanche, plusieurs soldats et officiers "essaient de minimiser l'affaire et ont refusé de condamner ce phénomÄne, certains allant mÄ™me jusqu’ŕ faire preuve de compréhension Å• l’égard des auteurs de ces actes. Selon eux, ‘se faire prendre en photo avec un cadavre peut paraître insupportable : mais ce ne sont que des souvenirs, comparables aux photos que l’on peut prendre lors d’une soirée ou d’une sortie’."

Could be translated as :

Quote[/b] ]ISRAEL - Revelations on the macabre practices of the soldiers of Tsahal

The daily newspaper Yediot Aharonot, more read in Israel, publishes this Friday November 19 a file revealing “the exactions made by the Israeli soldiers on the bodies of dead Palestinian militantsâ€. This information was communicated to the newspaper, with testimonys, video photographs and recordings with the support, by soldiers shocked by the behavior of their comrades.

It is not a question of some isolated cases: these practices seem quasi systematic. Several units are concerned, including one made of ultra-orthodoxe volunteers. According to the testimony of a soldier, “macabre vidéos and photographs are the subject of trade. The soldiers pose beside the corpses or play with human scraps to be made photograph and film.â€

This case will undoubtedly have a very strong impact on the public opinion in Israel, often little with the current of what this master key really in the occupied Territories. As regards Israeli army, the chief of staff, the General Moshe Yaalon, qualified these practices of “horribleâ€, affirming that “an investigation will be opened by the military police forceâ€, while the spokesman of the army “condemned these serious facts firmlyâ€.

On the other hand, several soldiers and officers “try to minimize the business and refused to condemn this phenomenon, some going even until showing comprehension with regard to the authors of these acts. According to them, “to be made take in photograph with a corpse can appear unbearable: but they are only memories, comparable with the photographs that †one can take at the time of one evening or a sortie'.â€

The war lasts since so many years, and the level of hatred, sorrow and stress in combat have risen to the highest levels, that moral barriers have fallen...

Before Avonlady took her uzi, I'd like to say that I do not intend to indict Tsahal and Israël, as USA (Vietnam, currently Irak), Germany, France (Algeria), Russia (Afghanistan, Chechenya), Serbia, UCK,.... (a limitless list) were already envolved in the past for war crimes in bloody assymetric conflicts.

As the "first casualty of war is innocence", nobody's better than the others, not even the chosen people...

We are all human beings  

[kerosene 0]

That kind of behaviour has been in war since the camera was invented probably, even people in funeral homes and stuff mess around with bodies, im not defending it, it just seems to be a way a lot of people cope with constant death around them.

[theavonlady 2]

Before Avonlady took her uzi, I'd like to say that I do not intend to indict Tsahal and Israël

/avon flips on the safety latch

From the Jerusalem Post:

Quote[/b] ]Chief Rabbi of IDF condemns mutilations

By JPOST.COM STAFF

Chief Rabbi of the IDF, Brig.-Gen. Yisrael Weiss harshly condemned the incidents of mutilation Friday, saying it is not moral, not humanitarian, not the way of the IDF, and not Jewish. He added that one horrible incident like this undermines the entire moral basis of the IDF and rightly.

"We had proven, as an army and a people, more than once, that we were different. We don't go out and dance on [dead] bodies, we don't go out and sing and dance in front of hanging bodies, when there is an enemy who does that and with great joy. We do not pass out candies at the fall of our enemies," Rabbi Weiss said.

Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Ya'alon ordered the Military Police to open an investigation on Friday into claims that IDF soldiers mutilated the bodies of dead Palestinians.

Ya'alon told Israel Radio that he strongly condemns all such behavior and that it is unconscionable for Israelis and Jews.

"I saw in this squad actions that must not occur in an army that teaches that a value of war is to respect human rights. Incidents like those should not occur in the IDF and therefore I ordered the military police to open an investigation so that we can address incidents from the past. I intend to discover the truth," he said.

An article in Yediot Ahronot's weekend edition prompted the investigation. Yediot Ahronot pre-released a part of its story on Wednesday which claimed that soldiers of the Nahal haredi battalion and others posed with the mutilated body parts of a suicide bomber.

According to Ynet, the NCO ordered the Palestinian's head be stuck upon a stake and photographed with a cigarette in his mouth.

I cannot find an earlier article where this was condemned in similar terms by IDF's COS Ya'alon.

What disgusts me even more is that this was done by so-called religious soldiers. Sick.

But one has to ask where were any of you when Palestinian crowds were lynching Israelis in public in Ramalah, dumping their stabbed bodies out of windows, disembowling them, dragging them through throngs of thousands of people who spat and stepped on them in a frenzy.

And that was only one of dozens of such similar events.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]What disgusts me even more is that this was done by so-called religious soldiers. Sick.

Well, there is no such thing as a perfect society, perfect military unit or perfect anything really. It's bound to happen when there are certain ingredients present such as in the middle east and other places. If this is a systematic and typical occurence I would call it sick, but if it happened only a couple of times or by the hand of a specific small group I'd call actions by some sick bastards.

Quote[/b] ]But one has to ask where were any of you when Palestinian crowds were lynching Israelis in public in Ramalah, dumping their stabbed bodies out of windows, disembowling them, dragging them through throngs of thousands of people who spat and stepped on them in a frenzy.

Yes, I remember that one clearly as it was ugly as hell. I also remember I thought to myself what the mothers would say when they were told afterwards that it was their son they watched on the telly that was killed and thrown out of the window. I also remember the rockets being fired at the van outside the prison wall and I felt the reaction was deserved. I'm sorry if that doesn't make me political correct in middle east matters but it was what I felt.

Well, enough for today - I have some XO waiting for me!

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]What disgusts me even more is that this was done by so-called religious soldiers. Sick.

Well, there is no such thing as a perfect society, perfect military unit or perfect anything really. It's bound to happen when there are certain ingredients present such as in the middle east and other places. If this is a systematic and typical occurence I would call it sick, but if it happened only a couple of times or by the hand of a specific small group I'd call actions by some sick bastards.

Judaism has a strong prohibition against the desecration of G-d's name - especially in public.

My disgust is even for the few individuals of my people who desecrated a human body. Indeed this is a single rotten apple but it tarnishes a barrel full.

Contrast the few who participated here with the hundreds of volunteers here in the ZAKA organization, who treat the body parts of terrorists who blow up buses and restaurants no differently than the victims they have to gather afterwards.

[Bernadotte 0]

But one has to ask where were any of you when Palestinian crowds were lynching Israelis in public in Ramalah, dumping their stabbed bodies out of windows, disembowling them, dragging them through throngs of thousands of people who spat and stepped on them in a frenzy.

Where were we?  

What does it matter where we were 4 years ago when that happened?

(9 months before you even registered at the BIS forum)

And that was only one of dozens of such similar events.

Oh really?  And where were you when any of those dozens of lynchings happened?

Can you show us an example of where you posted about even one of them?

[theavonlady 2]

But one has to ask where were any of you when Palestinian crowds were lynching Israelis in public in Ramalah, dumping their stabbed bodies out of windows, disembowling them, dragging them through throngs of thousands of people who spat and stepped on them in a frenzy.

Where were we?  

What does it matter where we were 4 years ago when that happened?

(9 months before you even registered at the BIS forum)

You're right.

I should have mentioned the public display of Israeli soldier body parts in Gaza last year.

Ho hum.

Quote[/b] ]

And that was only one of dozens of such similar events.

Oh really? And where were you when any of those dozens of lynchings happened?

Can you show us an example of where you posted about even one of them?

If you'll notice my posting habits on this thread, I am usually a responder - not an instigator, like you. That is why I responded to this subject yesterday.

Keep trying.

[Bernadotte 0]

But one has to ask where were any of you when Palestinian crowds were lynching Israelis in public in Ramalah...

It sure is lucky for us that you're not an instigator.    

[Bernadotte 0]

You're right.

I should have mentioned the public display of Israeli soldier body parts in Gaza last year.

Nope.  

That was the result of a Palestinian RPG or roadside bomb hitting an Israeli truck packed with explosives that were intended for the demolision of Palestinian homes.  Body parts were certainly scattered over a great area, but it was hardly a lynching.

Keep trying.

[theavonlady 2]

You're right.

I should have mentioned the public display of Israeli soldier body parts in Gaza last year.

Nope.  

That was the result of a Palestinian RPG or roadside bomb hitting an Israeli truck packed with explosives that were intended for the demolision of Palestinian homes.  Body parts were certainly scattered over a great area, but it was hardly a lynching.

Keep trying.

I didn't mention a lynching. The subject was the desecration of dead people.

Oh, and how do you know that the explosives weren't for the demolition of weapons smuggling tunnels, which is one of the major reasons for house demolitions?

[SPQR 0]

But one has to ask where were any of you when Palestinian crowds were lynching Israelis in public in Ramalah, dumping their stabbed bodies out of windows, disembowling them, dragging them through throngs of thousands of people who spat and stepped on them in a frenzy.

Where were you when ?

- GIA bombs with nails and shrapnels exploded in Paris subway

(GIA : Groupe Islamque Algerien or Algerian Islamic Group)

- when christian lebanese troops murdered palestianian women and children at Sabra and Chatila encampments

- when bomb exploded in Bali, killing dozens in a night club

- when Saudi islamists kill their own innoncent kin

- when Jordanian troops murdered palestinians during the "Black September"

- when talibans executed people in the name of Faith

- when massive ethnic cleansing occur in Africa

- when bosno-serbs regroup muslim bosnian villages to expulse inhabitants or to kill some or all of them

- when croatian troops were doing the same

- when bosnian troops were pushing civilian to pass through firing zones because a foreign TV camera was here

- when central-american peasants are threatened or killed by the drug cartels troops

- when Favellas abandonned childrens were hunted as if they were only mice by death commandos

- when prisonners are executed by chinese police, the bullet having to be paid by the executed one family

- when chinese tanks and infantry rushed into students at the Tien Nen Men place

- ... (suffering and death listing is limitless)

I won't right you are wrong or you are right. You can hear but you don't listen. Too many palestinians could hear but they won't listen also.

I'm not here to take side with anybody, and I won't. Not because of european history or whatever you may find, but because blood appealing for blood, whatever you may write there is no more innocence and good vs bad in your war with palestinians.

The blood and feud monster is allready feeding himself autonomously with your mutual hatred and the bloody sea dividing both sides.

Israël hasn't the monopole of Suffering in the world even it is here the subject, and even if too many from both side suffer too much, a suffering a normal human being can hardly bear.

About lynching, without the fact that it's an horrible death when looking with our "civilized eyes" (Through my own definition, all non-natural deaths are horrible and useless), if you read Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down, you'll understand why : it happens when a low tech low firepower "army" fight a high tech high power army. Their furor unleash when they manage to catch an opponment after the first heavy loses...

Is there a real difference between a nearly indestructible heavy armored Merkava and fast flying MH-60 firing tempest of bullets ?

Why do I write all this as I won't expect peace or better understanding from it ?

Because I am fed up of all the blood spilled, and suffering and death toll and hatred feeding from the latter, in an everlasting vicious circle.

I don't feel the urge to create and identify an arch-enemy from any people to make friend, reinforce cooperation and feeling good while thinking I belong to the good side, the side of light.

The most funny with man is that he always think he's the good guy and the other the bad.

It helps us to feel better.

Making one as an enemy is easier than trying to communicate with him (before blowing one's house or family in a bus).

Some would say this is two cents psychology.

You are right, keep things simple to prevent you from having an headache.

I'm just watching you.

Whenever blood is spilled, palestinian or israelian, It is red.