The Middle East part 2

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Israel has the power to restrain itself, wheras the Palestinian Authority is near powerless, no thanks to retribution attacks from Israel.

One could also argue that Hamas has power to restain itself, but it doesn't want to do that. Nor do I believe that Israel has the luxury of restraining itself when bombs go off. No matter which amount of restraint one shows or which negotiations are being put up Hamas does not care and simply does not stop. It seems to me that these renegade elements are impossible to control, they don't obey Palestinian authority anyway. Restraint against orgazinations like Hamas don't work that well as it was obvious in 2000 when peace talks of 'Camp David 2' failed and wave of suicide bombings cost Ehud Barak his premiership despite showing restraint in the initial phase. Call me cynical but it seems that Israel's hard stance and assasinations of Hamas leadership have actually decreased amount of suicide bombings during recent years. Even if PA would have the authority and credibility I doubt it would ever undertake an effort of cracking down on Hamas and risking a full-scale civil war.

Quote[/b] ]But that’s where such an archaic idea belongs. It won’t work, nor last forever in the modern world.

It's built on partly Palestinian land and is thus unfair and illegal. But I do believe it works in stopping incursions of gunmen and suicide bombers. One can hardly claim that Berlin wall was ineffective in it's sinister purpose.

Quote[/b] ]"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."

With all due respect I think he was referring to fruitful peace negotiations with Egypt. There is a difference talking to the heads of state than terrorist groups commited to destroying you no matter what. And he died even before the first Intifada began.

Quote[/b] ]The fact they are willing to go so far as to blow themselves up, indicates the severity of the frustration they’re enduring.

That might be partially true, but I'd like to know has the economic and social situation of Palestinians worsened so dramatically after 1992 when suicide bombings were 'introduced' compared to earlier times of Israeli occupation? I'd see it more like a more efficient way of killing your enemies fuelled by fanaticism with no correlation of actual real life events and peace process (like gaining own autonomy and authority in mid-90s). One could also argue that rise in suicide bombings is a triumpf of Hamas propaganda machine and spreading of hatred.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Israel has the power to restrain itself, whereas the Palestinian Authority is near powerless, no thanks to retribution attacks from Israel.

One could also argue that Hamas has power to restain itself, but it doesn't want to do that. Nor do I believe that Israel has the luxury of restraining itself when bombs go off. No matter which amount of restraint one shows or which negotiations are being put up Hamas does not care and simply does not stop. It seems to me that these renegade elements are impossible to control, they don't obey Palestinian authority anyway. Restraint against orgazinations like Hamas don't work that well as it was obvious in 2000 when peace talks of 'Camp David 2' failed and wave of suicide bombings cost Ehud Barak his premiership despite showing restraint in the initial phase. Call me cynical but it seems that Israel's hard stance and assasinations of Hamas leadership have actually decreased amount of suicide bombings during recent years. Even if PA would have the authority and credibility I doubt it would ever undertake an effort of cracking down on Hamas and risking a full-scale civil war.

Hamas and the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (or whatever they've called themselves now) in particular, are indeed major thorns in the peace process.

With a changing of the guard, now is the optimum time for change. Israel needs to let that fact be known to the PA, so then hopefully, some kid of memorandum of understanding can be reached. For instance, if Israel were to allow the PA more power under the right leader, that would in turn allow the PA to crack down on extremists. Then Israel would begin the withdrawal of the occupied territories.

If proper leadership is established within the PA, the PA should be able to address the Palestinian people in a way that manages the crackdown of extremists without civil war breaking out... The paradox is, the PA is too vulnerable, and can't protect itself at the moment from anyone.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]But that’s where such an archaic idea belongs. It won’t work, nor last forever in the modern world.

It's built on partly Palestinian land and is thus unfair and illegal. But I do believe it works in stopping incursions of gunmen and suicide bombers. One can hardly claim that Berlin wall was ineffective in it's sinister purpose.

Though the Berlin Wall was effective, its purpose did not stand the test of time. Is the purpose of the Israeli wall to keep extremists out, or to be a guideline for a new, Israeli dictated border? If they want to keep the extremists and their deadly tactics out, should not they do so at their true border?

This mechanism of 'self defence' on one side is a sign of aggression on the other. In the long term, the wall, in its current position, will not help the peace process. For as long as the Palestinians want the return of the land that is behind that wall, it will hinder the peace process. At the very least, it must be shifted. If the Jewish settlements need protection(in the medium term, as in the long term, they'll likely need demolishment). Put walls around those instead. The settlers ought to know that by choosing to live in a disputed territory, that they're living on a knife-edge.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."

With all due respect I think he was referring to fruitful peace negotiations with Egypt. There is a difference talking to the heads of state than terrorist groups commited to destroying you no matter what. And he died even before the first Intifada began.

The words are still true. I can't remember the last time I heard that the PA and the government of Israel communicated outside of an internationally organised peace negotiation, or through use of force. The use of force will, at the most bring peace to only one side.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The fact they are willing to go so far as to blow themselves up, indicates the severity of the frustration they’re enduring.

That might be partially true, but I'd like to know has the economic and social situation of Palestinians worsened so dramatically after 1992 when suicide bombings were 'introduced' compared to earlier times of Israeli occupation? I'd see it more like a more efficient way of killing your enemies fuelled by fanaticism with no correlation of actual real life events and peace process (like gaining own autonomy and authority in mid-90s).

Of course they would have been better off economically, as continual violence hardly leads to investment. But the feeling one must get for not having a national identity, and being restrained from obtaining one, must be appalling.

[shinRaiden 0]

The Jerusalem Post is currently in Slashdotted mode. Articles are not, so a lot of good that will do them.

The paranoia continues

Quote[/b] ]

Even after Yasser Arafat's death Thursday morning, French health officials continued their stony silence about exactly what disease killed the Palestinian leader. And so, the man who lived so much of his life simply and in the public eye, died mysteriously, surrounded by secrecy.

After two weeks, the medical databases at Percy Military Training Hospital in Clamart must be crammed with information about Arafat's condition - scans, biopsies, reams of blood test results - that would have defined for doctors within minutes the condition of Arafat's kidneys, liver and lungs. But these remain top secret.

The hospital officially announced Arafat's death in a terse statement delivered by the hospital spokesman, General Christian Estripeau, who told reporters there would be no details released on tests, the cause of death or whether there would be an autopsy. When reached by telephone later on Thursday, Estripeau said there would be "no information."

In fact, all the information about Arafat's sudden death that has dribbled out comes from his Palestinian aides, who provide facts through a non-medical and highly politicized filter. These few misshapen puzzle pieces are insufficient to create a picture of what went wrong.

...

Strokes are generally sudden affairs, and Arafat's was almost certainly a secondary result of his underlying and undisclosed illness. At the time of his medical evacuation to Paris two weeks ago, aides revealed that he was suffering from a low platelet count and had undergone a platelet transfusion. Since platelets are involved in blood clotting, patients with low platelet counts are predisposed to brain hemorrhages, and this may have contributed to Arafat's death.

But low platelet counts in the blood are a common finding in a wide range of illnesses, including severe infections, liver disease, end-stage cancer, and even AIDS. And doctors made no mention of a hemorrhage until Wednesday, suggesting that it was a recent event.

On Nov. 4, doctors and aides announced that Arafat was being transferred to the intensive care unit because his condition had deteriorated. No mention of a brain hemorrhage was made at that time, although such bleeding would have been immediately obvious on a CAT scan.

...

There are various reasons why Arafat's inner circle would want to keep the cause of his death a secret. Perhaps he suffered from a disease that they considered embarrassing. Or perhaps the doctors who treated him during the early phases of his illness in Ramallah missed a treatable medical condition, letting him deteriorate to the point it was too late to cure him once he was moved to Paris.

In the end, the actual timing of his death - like in much of his life - was probably tinged with a hefty dose of politics and religion.

At some point after he was transferred to intensive care, Arafat was placed on a ventilator, a machine that assists in breathing. Such assistance can be required because of lung problems - like pneumonia - or in cases where the brain-centers that control breathing are not functioning properly. Both deep comas and large strokes can damage these centers temporarily and require that a patient be placed on a machine.

Once a patient's breathing is maintained by a ventilator, the exact timing of death often becomes something of a matter of choice. More important, it also becomes subject to religious variations concerning the ethics of caring for terminally ill patients.

Islamic scholars have generally prohibited the discontinuation of life support machines, since the Koran advises: "Don't throw yourself into death." Nabil Shaath, the Palestinian foreign minister, reacted violently to press reports yesterday that Palestinian officials had arrived in Paris to "pull the plug" on Arafat.

"We don't accept euthanasia," he said, Arafat "is in the hands of God."

But in France, as in much of the world, death is now defined by the death of the brain, or "brain death." A patient on a ventilator can be breathing and have a pumping heart- at least for some time - even though he is medically and legally dead.

Many Islamic scholars say that a patient can be disconnected from life support once he is brain dead, since he is no longer really alive. But some conservative Muslim groups, as well as many conservative Jews, still maintain that the person lives so long as the heart is beating.

It is not known if Arafat was removed from life-support machines or if his heart stopped beating while he was still on them.

AFP via Turkish Press

Quote[/b] ]

The personal physician of Yasser Arafat called for an inquiry into the cause of the veteran Palestinian leader's death on Thursday.

"I demand an official inquiry and an autopsy ... so the Palestinian people can learn in all transparency what caused the death" of their leader, Dr Ashraf al-Kurdi said on Al-Jazeera television only hours before Arafat was due to be buried.

He said his suspicions were aroused by the absence of any information about Arafat's health since he was admitted to hospital in Paris on October 29 and that Arafat was conscious when he left his Ramallah compound.

Amid the doubt, rumours have surfaced that Arafat was poisoned but doctors in Paris and Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath rejected that speculation.

Kurdi, who was Arafat's personal physician for more than 20 years, said he had been surprised by the actions of some members of the veteran leader's office.

He said they took too long to contact him even though Arafat's health was in rapid decline.

Kurdi, who did not travel to Paris his patient, said he could not draw any conclusions about the death despite his suspicions.

Meanwhile Egypt is keeping a tight guard on events...

Quote[/b] ]

Egypt prepared Thursday for a strictly controlled military funeral for Yasser Arafat where dignitaries from around the world will pay their respects, but where the people - among whom Arafat was by far more popular - will be mostly shut out.

The planned 25-minute ceremony at a military club in a Cairo suburb reflects concern for security at an event expected to draw dozens of statesmen and foreign ministers. But Egypt also apparently sought to avoid an outpouring of public emotion that might either get out of control or show that the late Palestinian leader enjoyed more support than other Arab leaders.

Arafat's coffin, flown from a Paris military base, arrived in Cairo late Thursday. Authorities mounted a maximum security operation around the airport, increasing police guards and stationing observers on tall buildings.

...

The service originally was planned for a mosque on the grounds of Cairo's international airport, but was switched to the military club for logistical reasons.

Egypt stepped in to host the service for Arafat, who died early Thursday, because it would be politically difficult for Arab leaders to travel to the Israeli-controlled Palestinian territories for a ceremony.

...

"I would like to draw your attention to something that is very important: It's an official military funeral and not open to the public," Col. Ahmed Assem of the Interior Ministry told viewers of Egypt's state-run television.

After the funeral, Arafat's coffin will be taken to the Almaza military base near the club and then flown to Ramallah in the West Bank, Gen. Abdel Fattah Badran said. Arafat will be buried there before sunset Friday.

The short drive from the club to the base is likely to be the public's only opportunity to see Arafat's coffin pass. Security officials said Arafat's body would be borne by a horse-drawn carriage for some of the way.

If Arafat's body were to be brought into the center of Cairo, it might draw the biggest funeral crowd since the death of Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1970.

That would involve a security risk, and also a prestige risk that few Arab leaders are willing to take, said Walid Kazziha, a politics professor at the American University in Cairo.

"Other Arab leaders, would they like to see Arafat commanding this much support, even in death?" Kazziha asked.

Israel security level raised to 'War' level... (prob. slashdotted)

Quote[/b] ]

Police said that at 6 a.m. Friday the force will go on Operation Alert Level D – the last time used two years ago prior to America's invasion of Iraq and following threats made by Saddam Hussein that he will launch missiles against Israel.

Under the new alert level, all members of the Israel Police will be called up for active duty, including cadets and policemen currently on vacation.

Police said that their biggest concern is that the tens of thousands of Palestinians who flock to mosques for prayers on the last Friday of Ramadan will begin to riot and may attempt to breach military checkpoints and enter Israel.

Arafat's funeral is scheduled to take place at around the same time that Palestinian worshippers flock to the Temple Mount and other mosques for

prayers.

On Thursday police raised the level of alert to level C. One scenario police have discussed is the possibility that thousands of Palestinians will grab Arafat's body and begin to march towards Jerusalem for burial on the Temple Mount.

Senior police officers said they have given orders to officers in the field to "give Palestinians room and to try to avoid confronting with them when it is not necessary."

Police chief Insp.-Gen. Moshe Karadi ordered district commanders to step up security operations and to increase police presence in heavily-populated areas with an emphasis on Jerusalem and its surroundings.

The Prisons Service also went on high alert and special elite units were deployed to different security detention centers to prepare for possible riots among the some 4,000 Palestinian security prisoners held in Israeli jails. Guards were ordered to avoid contact with the prisoners and to give them room to mourn their leader.

Internal Security Ministry Gideon Ezra cut short a trip in Europe to return to Israel to oversee police preparations for Arafat's funeral.

Meanwhile Thursday, a group of settlers from northern Samaria were detained for questioning after they allegedly punctured the tires of Palestinian vehicles near the village of Silat A-Dahar. No one was injured in the incident.

Arafat and Hussein

Arafat and Rabin and Clinton

Arafat and Assad

Arafat and Perez

"Hello in TV land..."

Al-Aqsa 'Martyrs' Brigade renamed to 'Arafat Martyrs' brigade...

Quote[/b] ]

The armed wing of Fatah on Thursday announced its decision to change its name from the Aksa Martyrs Brigades to the Brigades of Martyr Yasser Arafat.

The decision came as many young guard Fatah activists in the West Bank expressed dissatisfaction with the new division of powers in the Palestinian Authority and the PLO, saying they were once again being shunned by the old guard.

...

Hiba Salah, a 35-year-old Fatah activist from the Jelazoun refugee camp north of Ramallah, explained that her group was opposed to Abbas "because he defined the Palestinian resistance as terrorism."

She was referring to Abbas's speech at the Aqaba summit in Jordan in June 2003, which brought together US President George W. Bush, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Jordan's King Abdullah, in addition to the PA prime minister.

At the summit, Abbas vowed to work towards putting an end to violence and terrorism, drawing sharp criticism from many Fatah activists and officials who accused him of succumbing to American and Israeli pressure.

"Our goal is clear and we will implement it firmly and without compromise: a complete end to violence and terrorism," Abbas said in his speech. "And we will be full partners in the international war against terrorism. And we will call upon our partners in this war to prevent financial and military assistance to those who oppose this position."

Many Fatah activists are also strongly opposed to giving Dahlan a key role in the new leadership, accusing him of conspiring against Arafat with the help of Israel and the US.

Dahlan has been accused of instigating the "mini intifada" that erupted in the Gaza Strip last July against Arafat and the Palestinian leadership.

"This man has no right to succeed President Arafat because he's a CIA agent," said a leaflet distributed by the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in Ramallah. Veteran Fatah officials also voiced opposition to giving Dahlan any political role, arguing that he had allied himself the "enemies of the Palestinian people."

A masked spokesman for the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that his group would not obey orders from Arafat's temporary successors.

"We are not going to deal with any of these people," he said, referring to Abbas and Qurei.

Asked whether the group would agree to lay down its weapons and stop terror attacks on Israel, the spokesman said any attempt to disarm would lead to an armed confrontation with the Palestinian security forces.

...

And in yet another challenge to calls from Abbas and Qurei for calm and an end to the rule of militiamen, the group distributed a leaflet in Ramallah Thursday night vowing to step up attacks on Israel.

"We urge our people to hit and strike the occupation everywhere," read the leaflet. "This crime [Arafat's death] will not go without punishment."

Jailed Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, a representative of the young Palestinian generation who enjoys the backing of the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, joined calls for pursuing the fight against Israel in the post-Arafat era.

Many people unable to attend his funeral to pay their respects...

Quote[/b] ]

And what about those victims? Why were they scarcely remembered in this Arafat death watch?

How is it possible to reflect on Arafat's most enduring legacy -- the rise of modern terrorism -- without recalling the legions of men, women, and children whose lives he and his followers destroyed? If Osama bin Laden were on his deathbed, would we neglect to mention all those he murdered on 9/11?

It would take an encyclopedia to catalog all of the evil Arafat committed. But that is no excuse for not trying to recall at least some of it.

Perhaps his signal contribution to the practice of political terror was the introduction of warfare against children. On one black date in May 1974, three PLO terrorists slipped from Lebanon into the northern Israeli town of Ma'alot. They murdered two parents and a child whom they found at home, then seized a local school, taking more than 100 boys and girls hostage and threatening to kill them unless a number of imprisoned terrorists were released. When Israeli troops attempted a rescue, the terrorists exploded hand grenades and opened fire on the students. By the time the horror ended, 25 people were dead; 21 of them were children.

Thirty years later, no one speaks of Ma'alot anymore. The dead children have been forgotten. Everyone knows Arafat's name, but who ever recalls the names of his victims?

So let us recall them: Ilana Turgeman. Rachel Aputa. Yocheved Mazoz. Sarah Ben-Shim'on. Yona Sabag. Yafa Cohen. Shoshana Cohen. Michal Sitrok. Malka Amrosy. Aviva Saada. Yocheved Diyi. Yaakov Levi. Yaakov Kabla. Rina Cohen. Ilana Ne'eman. Sarah Madar. Tamar Dahan. Sarah Soper. Lili Morad. David Madar. Yehudit Madar. The 21 dead children of Ma'alot -- 21 of the thousands of who died at Arafat's command.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]The fact they are willing to go so far as to blow themselves up, indicates the severity of the frustration they’re enduring.

That might be partially true, but I'd like to know has the economic and social situation of Palestinians worsened so dramatically after 1992 when suicide bombings were 'introduced' compared to earlier times of Israeli occupation? I'd see it more like a more efficient way of killing your enemies fuelled by fanaticism with no correlation of actual real life events and peace process (like gaining own autonomy and authority in mid-90s).

No correlation of actual real life events and peace process?  I disagree.

The first suicide bomb attack in Israel happened in the Spring of 1994.  It was in response to the machine gun attack by an Israeli settler against Palestinians in a crowded West Bank mosque during Ramadan, which was in response to the Oslo deal.

The settler, Dr Baruch Goldstein, managed to kill 29 whorshippers and wound over 100 before being beaten to death by survivors.  A shrine was erected at his burial site in the West Bank and his tombstone still reads:

Quote[/b] ]"Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754."

[shinRaiden 0]

Kach and Kahane have been denounced by the US and UN (terrorist group designation and the prosecutions attached), banned by Israel with harsh prision sentances (the brother of the guy who assainated Rabin was just restricted from even communicating with his family from prison because of allegations they were plotting the assasination of Sharon) and outlawed the group under legislation specially written to restrict them. Of course they are universally denounced by the Arab world.

Hebron's a special mess because you have the worst of both sides, Al'Aksa and the militant elements of Kach, living next door to each other. The security at the tomb of the Patriarchs was the most severe I saw anywhere in 2000, and still tops any airport (or FAA regional office for that matter) that I've seen since.

There have been other factors as well. The attack at Queen Hapshepsut's Tomb in Luxor Egypt in 1997 killed the international tourism (especially vacationing Israeli's) market. Especially throughout the north and east Sinai you can see the ruins of all the abandoned resorts that were under development. The bombing at Taba this summer is likely to be the nail in that coffin.

Quote[/b] ]

"It is too bad that the Muslim Brothers did not agree with us, but we understand their difficult position with the government. But, we will be together in the future because we are on the same path and united by the Quran," said the statement. "We participated with Palestinian Muslim Brothers [and] the martyr Essam Al Gohari in Jerusalem, and we trained with them in Afghanistan," it added. "Oh, Hezballah did you reject the attack? The tourists had been told not to go, but they went," Gihad Talaa al-Fath said. "We will not change our position that tourists, police and citizens are targets. We have the goal of unity with the Gama'a Islamiya because they have the same objectives," the group added in a new statement received by al-Hayat on 24 November.

...

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak blamed the attack in part on Great Britain because it has granted political asylum to Egyptian militant leaders who are engineering attacks on Egypt's tourists from their offices in London.

Then there was the bombing of the Maxim restaurant in Haifa in 2003. The catch was that it was owned and operated by an Israeli Jew and an Arab Palestinian. That made it a 'worthy' target as the arab co-owner was obvious an 'infidel traitor'. 21 killed and 60 wounded, including a half dozen arabs employed there.

The economies have become very tightly integrated. When I was there, I always took the sherut taxi-buses because they were dirt cheap, rates negotiable, drove insanely fast anywhere, and were all around more convienent than the Egged buses. But when the borders are closed, no taxis.

Palestinians repeatedly claim that their occupations and sustinace are being proscribed contrary to the Geneva Convention, however the Israeli's were not attacking the orchards near Gaza to destroy the fruit, they were trying to clear the cover that was sheltering morters and rockets launched on suburban civilian populations.

[theavonlady 2]

The first suicide bomb attack in Israel happened in the Spring of 1994.  It was in response to the machine gun attack by an Israeli settler against Palestinians in a crowded West Bank mosque during Ramadan, which was in response to the Oslo deal.

How convenient of you to omit the multitude of Palestinian terrorist attacks that took place prior to Baruch Goldstein's attack, which is what Goldstein's murder spree was in response to - and not the Oslo accords, as you claim.

More revisionism. How convenient.

[shinRaiden 0]

[DISCLAIMER]

Just as there is 'no such thing as an innocent civilian' in the ME (depends on who you talk to though), there is also no such thing as an un-biased position on the subject either. I trust those that are open and honest about their biases a lot more than those that claim they have no bias.

[/DISCLAIMER]

So basically my position is that I will discuss the claims of the palestinians the moment they are willing to similarly discuss whether their repeated and premeditated acts of terror and murder diminish or disqualify their claims. If it's war and bloodshed they want, the Israeli's are technically well-qualified to give them their heart's desire. If conversely they wish to be at peace with the world outside their neighborhoods and clans, nothing is preventing them from making the Israelis look bad on TV for not showing up.

If they had their wits together, they'd apply for citizenship enmass, deed over all the land, vote as a bloc to be the biggest party in the knesset, and make it the next Islamocracy. If Israel tried to block it, the rest of the world would continue their habitual castigation of Israel and they'd be politically forced to cave.

The mayor and city council of an Arab village on the Israeli side of the fence from Jenin got grilled in the Arab press for having the gall to be appreciative of the fence blocking people coming out of Jenin, as those bandits were stealing the villagers laundry off the line for disguises and burglarizing peoples houses for hideouts from the IDF.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ][DISCLAIMER]

Just as there is 'no such thing as an innocent civilian' in the ME (depends on who you talk to though), there is also no such thing as an un-biased position on the subject either. I trust those that are open and honest about their biases a lot more than those that claim they have no bias.

[/DISCLAIMER]

LOL - seriously, it's a good point though

Quote[/b] ]So basically my position is that I will discuss the claims of the palestinians the moment they are willing to similarly discuss whether their repeated and premeditated acts of terror and murder diminish or disqualify their claims. If it's war and bloodshed they want, the Israeli's are technically well-qualified to give them their heart's desire. If conversely they wish to be at peace with the world outside their neighborhoods and clans, nothing is preventing them from making the Israelis look bad on TV for not showing up.

Well, let's hope both parties show some restraint and use the death of Arafat as an excuse to choose another path.

Quote[/b] ]If they had their wits together, they'd apply for citizenship enmass, deed over all the land, vote as a bloc to be the biggest party in the knesset, and make it the next Islamocracy. If Israel tried to block it, the rest of the world would continue their habitual castigation of Israel and they'd be politically forced to cave.

You don't really believe that would be allowed do you - in the land of David and all that?

Quote[/b] ]The mayor and city council of an Arab village on the Israeli side of the fence from Jenin got grilled in the Arab press for having the gall to be appreciative of the fence blocking people coming out of Jenin, as those bandits were stealing the villagers laundry off the line for disguises and burglarizing peoples houses for hideouts from the IDF.

Hehe. I think most people (including myself every now and then) think of "suffering" palestinians/israelis as a homogene group - and it seldom is of course.

[Bernadotte 0]

The first suicide bomb attack in Israel happened in the Spring of 1994.  It was in response to the machine gun attack by an Israeli settler against Palestinians in a crowded West Bank mosque during Ramadan, which was in response to the Oslo deal.

How convenient of you to omit the multitude of Palestinian terrorist attacks that took place prior to Baruch Goldstein's attack, which is what Goldstein's murder spree was in response to - and not the Oslo accords, as you claim.

More revisionism. How convenient.

Let's see who's revising history.

Please provide a reference to support your claim.

Here's a reference supporting mine from one of your newspapers:

Quote[/b] ]The first suicide murderer after the Oslo Accords was Baruch Goldstein. His motive was to sabotage any agreement.

[Bernadotte 0]

If they had their wits together, they'd apply for citizenship enmass, deed over all the land, vote as a bloc to be the biggest party in the knesset, and make it the next Islamocracy. If Israel tried to block it, the rest of the world would continue their habitual castigation of Israel and they'd be politically forced to cave.

Where have you been?  Israel has never accepted their applications for citizenship.  They don't even let Israelis who marry Palestinians remain Israeli. Do you honestly believe that the right of return issue is about property?  Of course not.  For Israel it's about upsetting the demographics.  The only thing Israel fears more than a 2-state solution is a 1-state solution.

[theavonlady 2]

Let's see who's revising history.

Please provide a reference to support your claim.

Here's a reference supporting mine from one of your newspapers:

Quote[/b] ]The first suicide murderer after the Oslo Accords was Baruch Goldstein. His motive was to sabotage any agreement.

Yes, we have no lack of self hating, pathetically ignorant Jews. Let's start.

Quote[/b] ]Peace or Terror?

Peace or Terror?

When the first Israel-PLO agreement was signed in September 1993, Israeli leaders promised that a drop in terrorist activity would follow. The reverse has occurred. As the chart above shows, more Israelis were killed in terrorist attacks after the accords than before.

In fact, there were over twice as many Israeli terror fatalities in the year from Sep. 1994 - Sep. 1995 as in Sep. 1991 - Sep. 1992. Overall, Israel suffered 73% more terror fatalities in the two years after the 1993 deal than in the two years before it.

The period since the Israel-PLO accords has seen the highest level of terrorist killings in the history of the state of Israel.

Furthermore, as the graph indicates, the increase in terror has taken place mainly within Israel's pre-1967 boundaries, not in Judea and Samaria ("the West Bank") or Gaza. Suicide bomb attacks in and near Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Netanya have brought terror to where most Israelis live.

Since the June 1996 inauguration of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's center-right government, there has been a substantial drop in terror fatalities, with figures returning to their pre-1993 levels.

Source: News reports, press releases by Peace Watch, a nonpartisan watchdog group monitoring compliance with the Israel-PLO accords, and the Shalem Center - National Policy Institute.

Note: Figures include attacks on Israeli civilians and soldiers in areas within Israel's security responsibility. Thus, attacks on Israeli targets in Buenos Aires or other parts of the world are not included; neither are attacks in southern Lebanon or by the Lebanese Hizbullah.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monthly fatalities since the start of the intifada (December 1987)

Annual fatalities since 1967

Hizbullah attacks since 1990

Annual car thefts, 1993-1997

You'll also find more detailed events here, which do not include the hundreds of injured by bullets, knives, stones and molotov cocktails that survived.

[Bernadotte 0]

Let's see who's revising history.

Please provide a reference to support your claim.

Here's a reference supporting mine from one of your newspapers:

Quote[/b] ]The first suicide murderer after the Oslo Accords was Baruch Goldstein. His motive was to sabotage any agreement.

Yes, we have no lack of self hating, pathetically ignorant Jews. Let's start.

...

What are you spamming about now?  

You've posted nothing to support your claim that Goldstein acted in response to terrorism instead of Oslo.

Would you also call Goldstein's widow a "self hating, pathetically ignorant Jew"?  In her own words:

Quote[/b] ]"Baruch was not a psychopath. He knew exactly what he was doing. He planned it in order to halt the peace talks. He did it for the Jewish People"

[theavonlady 2]

You've posted nothing to support your claim that Goldstein acted in response to terrorism instead of Oslo.

Would you also call Goldstein's widow a "self hating, pathetically ignorant Jew"?  In her own words:

Quote[/b] ]"Baruch was not a psychopath. He knew exactly what he was doing. He planned it in order to halt the peace talks. He did it for the Jewish People"

Yes, silly, but why was Oslo bad for the Jewish people? Because the Arabs were showering us with hugs and kisses?

And that's all very nice what Mrs. Goldstein said but she herself had no idea that her husband had woken up that morning to commit mass murder.

Now, what are you constantly spamming about?

[shinRaiden 0]

If they had their wits together, they'd apply for citizenship enmass, deed over all the land, vote as a bloc to be the biggest party in the knesset, and make it the next Islamocracy. If Israel tried to block it, the rest of the world would continue their habitual castigation of Israel and they'd be politically forced to cave.

Where have you been? Israel has never accepted their applications for citizenship. They don't even let Israelis who marry Palestinians remain Israeli. Do you honestly believe that the right of return issue is about property? Of course not. For Israel it's about upsetting the demographics. The only thing Israel fears more than a 2-state solution is a 1-state solution.

Apply = to petition for, regardless of the assumed outcome. Just because Israel presently rejects the idea of "right of return" doesn't mean the Palestinians can't petition to be annexed into Israel offering land in exchange for citizenship. If they did it, the rest of the world would gang up on Israel and force them to take the deal.

Of course it would screw up the demographics. Israel's best stopgap to preventing that is claiming that it's impossible to distinguish between 'eligible' palestinians and 'ineligible' foriegners and terrorists.

I personally don't support this as it does nothing to solve the underlying cultural or social issues, just transfers them to another jurisdiction. My point in bringing it up is that the Palestianians have not shown any significant interest in co-existing with the state and people of Israel, so why should Israel be obligated to give them continued opportunity to kill and maim further?

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Palestinian Premier Ahmed Qurei has warned that Palestinians would abandon the two-state solution in favour of a single bi-national state if the creation of a viable Palestinian state becomes impractical or unrealistic.

-- some Cairo weekly

Palestinian leaders have issued this warning many many times.

You must have missed it.

[shinRaiden 0]

Hamas can't leave well enough alone...

Quote[/b] ]

The leader of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, who publicly accused Israel of killing Yasser Arafat, attended the Palestinian leader's funeral Friday in Cairo, in a rare public appearance for a man believed to be a walking target of the Israeli military.

Osama Hamdan, a Hamas spokesman, said Khaled Mashaal also would take time to talk to the new Palestinian leadership about talks among various Palestinian factions on how Gaza will be run after a planned Israeli withdrawal. Mashaal has stayed largely out of sight in recent months since renewed Israeli threats that leaders of Palestinian terrorist groups behind deadly attacks on Israelis should not consider themselves safe.

"It is only natural that we participate in Abu Amar's funeral, regardless of our differences in political positions," said Hamdan, referring to Arafat by his nom de guerre.

"After all, he was a Palestinian leader, and a symbol of the Palestinian struggle," Hamdan, in Cairo with three other senior Hamas officials, told The Associated Press from Beirut.

...

Hamas had opposed Arafat's decision to negotiate peace with Israel and had rivaled him for power.

The group, which is on a U.S. list of terrorist organizations, is responsible for killing scores of Israelis with suicide bombings and refusing to accept the Jewish state's right to exist.

Godfather of missed opportunities...

Quote[/b] ]

Yasser Arafat was the godfather of international terrorism who dashed his people's hope for statehood, stole billions of dollars intended for the relief of their suffering, and indoctrinated their children with so much hatred that they willingly turned themselves into human bombs.

He did manage to leapfrog the Palestinian cause over equally or more deserving causes – such as Tibetan freedom, Kurdish independence, and Basque statehood – by wielding three immoral weapons: first, international terrorism on a scale previously unknown to the world; second, an alliance with oil-rich states willing to extort support for his cause by energy blackmail; and third, exploitation of international anti-Semitism against the Jewish state.

Arafat was personally responsible for the murders of thousands of innocent Israelis, hundreds of innocent Americans, and countless others. Like other ethnically motivated butchers before him, he delighted in killing Jewish children, as he did in several well-planned attacks on Israeli schools and nurseries. He also personally ordered the murder of hundreds of his own people who disagreed with him or collaborated with Israel. Never a man to tolerate dissent, he employed bullets rather than arguments to respond to his critics.

Arafat was the inspiration for Osama bin Laden, because he proved to his eager student that terrorism works and that terrorists can be praised and rewarded by a craven world, as Arafat was by so many for so long.

Arafat was not one of those leaders who could, a la Nelson Mandela, make the transition from terrorist to peacemaker. He never learned how to take "yes" for an answer and he never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

...

He should have been indicted for ordering the murder of American diplomats, Israeli athletes, and international travelers instead of being praised for his "courage." It takes no courage to kill the helpless and much courage to risk one's own life in pursuit of peace. It was such courage that Arafat lacked.

The Nobel Peace Prize was cheapened by being awarded to this hater of peace. The Vatican was tarnished by its frequent welcoming of a man who violated every teaching of the Church. The United Nations was trivialized by its lionization of this coward. And terrorism was encouraged by the rewards Arafat received for his murders.

In the end, Arafat was a lucky man, lucky because his perceived enemy was the Jewish state. Had his enemy been a Christian or Muslim or communist state, he would never have received a pass for his mass murder. He understood the world's lingering anti-Semitism better than most, and he exploited it for all it was worth. Those grandchildren of Europeans who supported or welcomed Hitler and who willingly allowed their lingering bigotry to be exploited were complicit in his evil.

...

When Palestinian statehood is declared, Arafat will posthumously receive much of the credit. He will not deserve it. A more farsighted leader would have done more for his people, less for his own pocketbook, and better for the world than did Hitler's failed successor and bin Laden's successful predecessor – Yasser Arafat.

Praise Allah the Friday prayers appear to have concluded without major incident...

Quote[/b] ]Under a tight security cordon and police imposed restrictions, Friday's Moslem prayers on the Temple Mount ended peacefully despite fears of violence at the site.

About ten thousand Moslem worshippers were filing out of the compound at about 12:30 p.m. without incident.

On Thursday, citing intelligence alerts over likely Palestinian disturbances at the Temple Mount after Friday prayers, Jerusalem police announced that they would be imposing restrictions on entrance to the holy site on Friday.

...

Only a dozen Jewish worshippers were at the Western Wall on Friday afternoon although the plaza area was lined with police and emergency rescue vehicles and dozens of journalists awaiting the end of prayers. A handful of bemused tourists were taking in the scene of bustling police activity at the site.

All Arab men under the age of 45 were barred from the midday prayers due to concerns over rioting.

...

Police sporadically close off the Temple Mount to younger male Arabs on Fridays during times of high tension, and following multiple alerts over possible violence at the site.

The latest wave of Palestinian violence erupted at the Temple Mount four years ago.

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/11/arafat.reaction/index.html

People react...

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. President George W. Bush said Arafat's death was a "significant moment" in Palestinian history.

"For the Palestinian people, we hope that the future will bring peace and the fulfillment of their aspirations for an independent, democratic Palestine that is at peace with its neighbors. ...

"During the period of transition that is ahead, we urge all in the region and throughout the world to join in helping make progress toward these goals and toward the ultimate goal of peace."

Quote[/b] ]

French President Jacques Chirac called Arafat "a man of courage and conviction who has incarnated, for 40 years, the fight of Palestinians for the recognition of their national rights."

Chirac offered his condolences and expressed "in this moment of mourning, the friendship of France and of the French people.

"May this loss unite all Palestinians. By remaining united they will continue to be faithful to Yasser Arafat's memory and will uphold the ideal to which he devoted his life.

"France, like her European partners, will firmly maintain its engagement in favor of two states -- one Palestinian state, viable, peaceful and democratic, and the state of Israel -- living side by side in peace and security."

Quote[/b] ]

The Vatican said: "The Holy See joins in the pain of the Palestinian people for the death of President Yasser Arafat. He was a leader of great charisma who loved his people and sought to lead them towards national independence.

"May God welcome in his mercy the soul of the illustrious deceased and give peace to the Holy Land, with two independent and sovereign states, fully reconciled with each other."

Quote[/b] ]

Australian Prime Minister John Howard said Arafat would be remembered as a leader who failed to grasp an opportunity for peace in the Middle East.

Speaking on radio before official news of Arafat's death, Howard said history would judge him harshly for not having seized the opportunity in 2000 to embrace the offer made by then Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak.

Howard said this "involved the Israelis agreeing to 90 percent of what the Palestinians had wanted."

[cain2001 0]

Will there be a "internal" war between the diffrent terrorist groups for who should become the next leader?

Is the future looking bright?

Could it been that Arafat's own people killed him because he had become very week and they feared they would lose this battle? And then they would blame Israel?

If the rest of the world just started to "pump" money into Palestina they would soon become educated and Hamas would no longer have such influence like they do. It would solve this conflict!

[shinRaiden 0]

There already has been internal war, Hamas and Al'Aksa have been adament in saying that if they need to fight the PLO to fight Israel, they will. Arafat has been partially willing to consider negotiations, those two have no interest in negotiations.

So far the worst-case scenarios have not played out. In Ramallah, they canceled the tomb-side service and immediately interred the casket, a smart move that prevented the opportunity for chaos to really get started.

Prior to this week though, the Palestinian State was Arafat. Now it's an open door. it's anyone's guess what will come or go through that door.

Arafat's been the target of previous coup attempts, but managed to survive it each time. His slow demise had a minimizing effect, which doesn't track with a rival's likely prference for a spectactular hit. The only feasible conspiracy theory was that it was a Mossad job, but even they know better than to have risked an operation like this. With the unsteady situation in Gaza and elsewhere, to target Arafat in this manner would have been worse than betting the farm.

The rest of the world has been pumping money into 'Palestine', problem is that the PA Finance Department was Arafat's secret swiss accounts. All the money coming in or going out got laundered through him, and Suha's going to get a $22 million annual pension out of it all.

[Bernadotte 0]

Hamas can't leave well enough alone...

Well enough?  

How do you define well enough?

What aspect of life in Gaza have you judged to be well enough?

[shinRaiden 0]

Has there been enough killing?

Has there been enough blood run through the streets?

Has there been enough threats of extermination?

Hamas has not had enough, as they want Israel out of all post-1948 and mandate lands by any means neccessary.

Of course I already said that in my post.

There has been more that 'enough' suicide bombers targeting public transportation and children. 1 person is more than 'enough'.

[brgnorway 0]

Has there been enough killing?

Has there been enough blood run through the streets?

Has there been enough threats of extermination?

Hamas has not had enough, as they want Israel out of all post-1948 and mandate lands by any means neccessary.

Of course I already said that in my post.

There has been more that 'enough' suicide bombers targeting public transportation and children. 1 person is more than 'enough'.

There is no doubt that the military/terrorist wing of Hamas needs to be controlled if peace is to be negotiated. However, that does imply restraint from all sides so the ordinary palestinian sees a real alternative in a possible outcome after a peace deal has been brokered. It is to be expected that at least Hamas, and various other organisations, will try to destabilize a future peace process once more. And to some extent they will succed because it's almost impossible to prevent it alltogether.

This puts the pressure on the israelis only because they are the ones that must restrain themselves from

1. Not target the PA police force, because palestinian authoroties from an israeli citizens point of view must deal with the terrorists and thus needs its means intact to do so.

2. Not to target palestinian civilians too hard or they will keep on recruiting to the hardline organisations like hamas etc.

[shinRaiden 0]

The PA police and security forces too often are transparent mirrors of the Hamas, Fatah, and Al'Aksa organizations. Same faces, different shirts. If the police forces are going to earn the respect they need, they need to be PA units devoid of any influence by the PLO, Fatah, or other organizations. The people also need to hold those organizations accountable to reduce the cases of police 'responce' turning into 'reinforcements'.

What's targeting the Palestinian civilians too hard? They're not holding back on the Israelis.

[Bernadotte 0]

Hamas has not had enough, as they want Israel out of all post-1948 and mandate lands by any means neccessary.

Not all Hamas leaders want to destroy Israel.

The other day I listed 6 reasons to be optimistic.  I wanted to list a 7th reason but I was too lazy to look up one of my earlier posts.  Here it is:

Quote of the month:

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Israel is too strong to defeat and the Palestinians have no choice but to live with the Jewish state in peace.  Let us be frank. We cannot destroy Israel. The practical solution is for us to have a state alongside Israel.

-- Senior Hamas leader Abu Shanab</span>

   

About Abu Shanab:

- most moderate of top 5 leaders in Hamas

- studied in US

- architect of recent ceasefire

My first reaction to Shanab's statement was, I wonder how long it will be before Hamas kills him for saying such a thing.

 Ismail Abu Shanab

Well shinRaiden?  How do you think Israel responded to this moderate Hamas leader?  

hint

[theavonlady 2]

Hamas has not had enough, as they want Israel out of all post-1948 and mandate lands by any means neccessary.

Not all Hamas leaders want to destroy Israel.

The other day I listed 6 reasons to be optimistic. I wanted to list a 7th reason but I was too lazy to look up one of my earlier posts. Here it is:

Quote of the month:

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Israel is too strong to defeat and the Palestinians have no choice but to live with the Jewish state in peace. Let us be frank. We cannot destroy Israel. The practical solution is for us to have a state alongside Israel.

-- Senior Hamas leader Abu Shanab</span>

About Abu Shanab:

- most moderate of top 5 leaders in Hamas

- studied in US

- architect of recent ceasefire

My first reaction to Shanab's statement was, I wonder how long it will be before Hamas kills him for saying such a thing.

[im]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39428000/jpg/_39428519_shanab_203body_ap.jpg[/img] Ismail Abu Shanab

Well shinRaiden? How do you think Israel responded to this moderate Hamas leader?

hint

The same way one should respond to moderate Nazis.

Remove image tags when quoting - Placebo.