The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

Bernadotte

Quote[/b] ]You forgot about the 170,000 Israeli settlers in E. Jerusalem.

Even with this so-called 'settlers', you're not even getting close to half a-million.

You're right, but 400,000 is closer to half a million than it is to 250,000.

Quote[/b] ]LOL... I'm afraid I won't believe that unless you can provide a link or reference or something?

Even Barak campaigned with the slogan:  "We will remain in Ofra and Beit El forever."

Could you show me a quote of this sentence?

Jerusalem Post

Now where's your quote of Sharon promising to remove settlers from the territories - or were you just making that up?

Quote[/b] ]Go right ahead.  You can start with the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot agreement and then continue with the British Balfour Declaration.  Both  are great examples of very ugly European colonial thinking that Israel couldn't have existed without.

...and that the Arab countries couldn't have existed without too.

The Sykes-Picot agreement secretly divided up the post-WWI ME region between Britain and France in 1916.  It directly contradicted the MacMahon-Hussein agreements which promised the independence of Arab states such as Palestine.  But I'm not really amazed that they don't teach you about this in Israeli schools.

And saying that Arab countries couldn't have existed without the Balfour declaration is like saying that Britain couldn't have existed without the American Declaration of Independence.

[Bernadotte 0]

Army officer charged with killing four Palestinians during curfew

Quote[/b] ]An Israeli army officer has been charged with killing four Palestinians, including three children, by ordering his soldiers to fire tank shells to enforce a curfew, according to the indictment.

According to the charge sheet, the incident took place in the West Bank town of Jenin in June 2002. The officer, a lieutenant in the armored corps, told tank crews to fire shells and machine guns to force Palestinians off the streets of the northern West Bank town.

Four Palestinians were killed -- two boys, aged 5 and 13, a 6-year-old girl and a 53-year-old man. Five people were wounded, including three children and a doctor.

The two-count indictment charges the soldier -- whose name was blacked out in the document -- with manslaughter and causing grievous bodily harm.

"While commanding a force of three tanks driving through the roads of Jenin, the commander ordered his troops to fire machine guns and shells at points he chose, in order to enforce the curfew," the indictment reads, adding that more than 10 shells were fired.

During three years of Palestinian-Israeli violence, Israeli forces have retaken most main West Bank towns in response to Palestinian suicide bombings in Israel. Soldiers often declare curfews, confining Palestinians to their homes.

Palestinians charge that soldiers often open fire for no discernible reason, killing and wounding bystanders, but few charges have been filed.

A report in the army magazine "Bamahane," a weekly for soldiers, said the indictment is based on testimony given by the father of the dead girl to B'tselem, an Israeli group that monitors human rights abuses in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He said he was driving to the market with his children, when a tank suddenly appeared at the street corner and opened fire.

The report said the officer has not replied to the charges, and his trial has not begun.

Even though the attack was caught on video, it still took 16 months just to charge him with manslaughter.  

I suspect his men would have been charged with much more serious offences and a lot quicker had they refused orders to open fire.

[Crazysheep 1]

Slightly off topic, but I've just been chatting to someone from Israel who is saying Palestine was never a country, and that the Palestinians are refugees from Arab countries that threw them out to Israel.

How true is this?

[EiZei 0]

Slightly off topic, but I've just been chatting to someone from Israel who is saying Palestine was never a country, and that the Palestinians are refugees from Arab countries that threw them out to Israel.

How true is this?

I wonder what he has been smoking then.

[bn880 5]

Who is it you are talking about?

[Acecombat 0]

[sarcasm]Hmm well hes wrong didnt you know the Palestinians just sprouted from within the land [/sarcasm]

@Ezei must be fantasy

[Bernadotte 0]

Slightly off topic, but I've just been chatting to someone from Israel who is saying Palestine was never a country, and that the Palestinians are refugees from Arab countries that threw them out to Israel.

How true is this?

Please ask the brainwashed Israeli to read The Mandate for Palestine, posted by the Israeli government.  Palestine is referred to as a country 13 times in that document.

And please be sure to point out my favourite part:

Quote[/b] ]Article 7.

The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

[EiZei 0]

Uh-oh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3165394.stm

Quote[/b] ]Israeli warplanes have attacked a Palestinian "terrorist training base" inside Syria - the first Israeli attack on Syrian soil for more than 20 years.

[bn880 5]

How much proof is htere that says there is an actual training camp for Palestinians there? I think such actions should be udnertaken through the UN, not just because it can be done.

[Acecombat 0]

Uh-oh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3165394.stm

Quote[/b] ]Israeli warplanes have attacked a Palestinian "terrorist training base" inside Syria - the first Israeli attack on Syrian soil for more than 20 years.

Hmm isnt this breaking and entering? Isnt this illegal?

Or maybe after america attacked Iraq i guess this is made legal now

[CosmicCastaway 0]

I think such actions should be udnertaken through the UN, not just because it can be done.

Lots of people said that about another recent military action, but that didn't help much then either.

It'll be interesting to see how the U.N and the U.S react to this.

[Acecombat 0]

I think such actions should be udnertaken through the UN, not just because it can be done.

Lots of people said that about another recent military action, but that didn't help much then either.  

It'll be interesting to see how the U.N and the U.S react to this.

Ah they'll do what they usually do you should have been accustomed to this pattern now its been like this for decades now

UN will condemn blah blah (crap no one heres) and US will veto whatever resolution comes forward and we all live happily ever after .......

[joltan 0]

Easy: Same procedure as every time: You have the UN trying to condone it, while the US vetos all critics in the security council. So nothing will happen.

I mean even your average Joe should by now have understood that Israel (the governement that is) doesn't give shit about the peace process and does everything to increase the conflict: it continues building the fence trough palestinian territory, settlements are not removed, and they continue the use of weapons of war and the killing of innocent bystanders in 'police actions'.

[cynism]Why don't they just drop one of their a-bombs (they are supposed to have them , else they could just borrow one of their good friend from overseas...) on the palestinian refugee camps and get over it once and for all? I can't see how this could upset their neighbours and the world anymore than how they behave right now.[/cynism]

[Acecombat 0]

No but then how would they beg for money ? If they lose the excuse they lose everything?

The american govt needs a valid excuse to put forward to its public , that we are giving aid to Israel for this reason , if you kill the reason then whats left....

Its just like Bush needs Terrorists to fight and terrorists need Bush , justlike that Israel needs Palestinians to fight.

[bn880 5]

I think such actions should be udnertaken through the UN, not just because it can be done.

Lots of people said that about another recent military action, but that didn't help much then either.

It'll be interesting to see how the U.N and the U.S react to this.

Ah they'll do what they usually do you should have been accustomed to this pattern now its been like this for decades now

UN will condemn blah blah (crap no one heres) and US will veto whatever resolution comes forward and we all live happily ever after .......

Yup, that's exactly it I guess. I wonder if veto powers should be removed and if the council should not go by majority decisions only.

@Crazysheep, sorry I asked who you were talking about, I misread your post and thought you meant someone from Israel in the mid-east thread.

[Bernadotte 0]

No but then how would they beg for money ? If they lose the excuse they lose everything?  

The american govt needs a valid excuse to put forward to its public , that we are giving aid to Israel for this reason , if you kill the reason then whats left....

I hope people don't read your post, look at the smilies and think you are being sarcastic because every word you wrote here is 100% true.

...Unfortunately.  

[Acecombat 0]

IMO veto powers shouldnt be removed but revoked after a mmeber uses it for a "said number of times regulary or consectively" like america does.

If a member is making too many vetos then he ultimately has to make sure his veto is spent is wisely , that way US will have to protect its veto instead of just raising a hand and calling off the lives of millions of people due to your beuraucraticness.

UN should reform itself IMO or as Bush said "fade away in to the sun as a over talkative thing" ....

[Acecombat 0]

Found this...

Israeli spec ops

They use bulldozers to kill terrorists too?

And then illegaly killed terrorists in detention too?

http://www.isayeret.com/operations/gift.htm

This ops proved to me the IDF is equal to the terrorists like HAMAS .... maybe the US learned to attack afghanistan and Iraq after seeing this

[bn880 5]

Join the club, I call them the Israeli Terrorist Forces not IDF. No one seems to really object anyway. But hey, there are actually some soldiers there with some morals, as we have seen with the pilots.

[Acecombat 0]

Yes those pilots were a bit moral enough to understand the situation and differentiate themselves from the terrorists , but alas they were called traitors , cowards and blah blah...

BUT if ANYONE can explain to me that operation gift plz do!!!

What was th point in blowing up civilian airlines aircraft? It sounds like they got so frustrated in their unability to catch terrorists that they decided to satisfy their hunger to kill/destroy something by doing something as rabid as that.

From the article:

Quote[/b] ]Destroyed arab planes

What was the point here i still CANT FATHOM?? it sounds like if a terrorist destroys our plane we destroy a arab plane (kinda eye for an eye tactic ) ... so next time a terrorist blows up a mal or coffee shop in Israel will they come and blow Hard Rock in Lebanon?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]I love the way you attempt to associate us with Hitler when Mein kampf is one of the most popular books in numerous Arab countries, Syria gives a major Nazi assylum and the Mufti of Jerusalem was an ardent Hitler lover during WWII.

Don't forget to mention the PLO's charter of destroying the State of Israel and the dancing in the streets when Jewish blood is spilled.

Thats what Avon wrote in the Iraq thread but it wasnt appropriate to answer there so i'll bring it in here if the Mod's wanna correct me if i did wrong plz do so.

If Syria wants to do something wrong then what have i got to do with Avon? Remember this dont generalize the whole Arab population in to one single cohesive unit .... as much as i would love to see them united they arent since the days of Caliphs.

And i think i lot more was going on after WW2 if you read back this thread well enough.

PLO's charter ? lol how much is it worth huh? Do you seriously think they can destroy whole of Israel?    

I am sure many countries worldwide have plans drawn on destroying america too ...  

'When jewish blood is spilled' ? Hmm i dont know which part of Israel you live in but Palestinians are everyday dying too and it doesnt makes a pretty picture in the eyes of 12 yr old kid or a person whois been seeing all his life nothing but blood being spilled of his kith and kin , its basic human instinct to be happy at your enemy's failure , i am sure IAF pilots had a toast too after destroying Iraqs nuclear reactors  

NOTE: Mr Ex-ronin i did move my argument here but no one seems to reply here i dont know why is that though.

[denoir 0]

Funny how Israel is the one constantly threatened with annihilation by several of its neighbors, including the Palestinians, yet it's Israel who stands accused.

You're a typical example of why Israel distrusts the hipocrytes of Europe. A classic!

I have not said anything about the Palestinians nor Israel's neighbours. I'm not accusing them any less than Israel. I think that they need to get over the anti-semitic bullshit rethorics (or better to say, the leaders need to) and come down to the real world.

But how threatened is Israel? Not very. You've got nukes and a competent military. The neighbouring Arab states have militaries that are as good fighters as Boris Jeltsin is a good tap dancer*

What the Isreali people need to realize is that you are not victims anymore as your government likes to constantly present it. And you are not fighting for your survival - you are the superior force plus you have 100% backing from USA. Israel does not stand on the brink of destruction. Get over your paranoia.

(* not very good, I presume)

[bn880 5]

I agree with what Denoir says... israel certainly does not have to fight for survival, it has a sure place in the ME, it just needs to back the heck out of what it's doing, draw some borders with internaitonal agreement and leave it there. Although a wall might be nice until anti-semetic problems calm down.

Walls can work wonders, and they can be brought down later with great festivities.

[Acecombat 0]

Yes this 24 hr 365 days a year paranoia of Arabs coming in and destroying Israel is being used as mindless propaganda think ... i mean for a country who had the guts to go in someone elses country back in 1968 and destroy a couple of dozen planes , it seems the Israeli govt keeps faking this 'oh-so-immense' danger that Israel is in.

P.S: Yeltsin did dance you know i think i saw a video of it on CNN

[hellfish6 7]

Well, there is a history of everyone trying kill overrun Israel. In 1973, the IDF was still probably one of the best militaries in the world and even then they almost lost. The technology and quality gap between the Arab and Israeli armed forces has, if anything, narrowed in the past few decades.

I think Israel has a legitimate reason to be paranoid of their neighbors, but I do not think that paranoia justifies violence.