The Middle East part 2

[bn880 5]

OMG! This is gone be bloody.

Now they just made it worst.

Well done Sharon

They have a seperating wall now, they can kick Palestinians around as they wish (mostly) just like Nazis liked to do.

In the ME, the guy with the bigger stick can do what he pleases, and that's Israel... sorry to say, but the only thing that can come out of this is what we've seen for some years now, couple israelis killed vs whole Palestinian infrastructure destroyed.

I am not usually a happy go lucky kind of person, but man am I glad I'm not an Israeli or Palestinian these days.

[Blake 0]

Maybe not very helpful strike in resolving the crisis, but are we supposed to mourn for this terrorist leader simply because he was on a wheelchair? I believe there will be suicide bombings anyway regardless of this targeted killing.

[der bastler 0]

Maybe not very helpful strike in resolving the crisis, but are we supposed to mourn for this terrorist leader simply because he was on a wheelchair? I believe there will be suicide bombings anyway regardless of this targeted killing.

No, the bombings will get worse now. The assassination of the head of HAMAS will unite the various palestinian fractions.

A stupid assault. That'll become a blood-summer...

[Apollo 0]

After some thought recently i made a decission to from now on seperate terrorism in 2 classes:

-Seperatist or Geurilla terrorism:(or other convention you would prefer)

would include all terrorist groups wich opperate mostly locally as they have a local political agenda in many cases promoting seperatism from a country.They stick to the one country that In their oppinion limits their ethnic freedom or claims.

These would include such groups as ETA ,Palestinian group's ,IRA ,Tchechen seperatists ,Kashmiri seperatists ,Kurdish seperatists and more.

International terrorism:

Differs itself from the other form of terrorism as such group's will perform attacks on a number of country's withought having a local political need for it.Such group's have a radically different structure than the other terrorists have ,opperating in cell's of mixed nationality's and fighting under an internional banner.

These would afcourse include all group's alligned to Al-Quaida. Those are plenty but not well known ,include's group's from Oman ,Saudi Arabia ,Egypt ,Yemen ,libya etc and cell's located al over the world.

The reason why i want to split up terrorism by this is because the first group of terrorists often has justified territorial claims to their local conflict opposed to the second group wich is rather engaged in an religious war agaisnt about everyone they want to attack.Kurds and Kashmiri's for ex are simply fighting for a seperatist state for their nationality ,given the ethnic composition in those region's where Kurds or Kashmiri live seperatism can be justified to a certain degree.Al-Quaida however has not got such justification's for their attack's and that makes them different from the other terrorists from a moral perspective.

[Bernadotte 0]

...are we supposed to mourn for this terrorist leader simply because he was on a wheelchair?

Of course not.  And neither because he was nearly blind and deaf.  In fact, I don't see any of us mourning him at all so I don't really understand why you've asked this question.  I'm not even mourning the 5 people who were killed for just standing nearby.

I believe there will be suicide bombings anyway regardless of this targeted killing.

Do you see anyone denying this?  Most of us believe there will be escalation.

[Scorpio 0]

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-09/20/images/pic08.jpg

For a moment there he looked like Saruman from Lord of the Rings.

[SpongeBob 0]

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-09/20/images/pic08.jpg

For a moment there he looked like Saruman from Lord of the Rings.

Just saw some pics of him in the morgue and it looks like something from the Dawn of the Dead movie

[Placebo 28]

Equating Israeli's to Nazis is flame baiting and not acceptable, putting a smiley face next to it does not make it ok. bn880 I'm sorely tempted to PR you for that but hopefully this was out of character for you.

I don't need much of an excuse to close this thread so I would strongly advise every one of you if you're going to post in here post carefully, calmly and respecfully.

[bn880 5]

Equating Israeli's to Nazis is flame baiting and not acceptable, putting a smiley face next to it does not make it ok. bn880 I'm sorely tempted to PR you for that but hopefully this was out of character for you.

I don't need much of an excuse to close this thread so I would strongly advise every one of you if you're going to post in here post carefully, calmly and respecfully.

Excuse me! They have built obtrusive walls, block people from working/living properly with checkpoints etc, kill protestors including children, destroyed palestinian infrastructure, hell, my opinion is they act like the new nazis, you want to PR me go ahead, I know what the heck I'm saying as it's true. I will not let anyone tell me they are not doing part of what was special about Nazis, even if I am banned from this precious forum.

EDIT: If it was not for international diaproval of such actions, I am giving you a 99% chance that if Israeli government had the chance they'd smoke half of the Palestinian population in a heartbeat, I say thins from about 2 years of following the confict.

[Placebo 28]

Your choice.

Warning Level +1

48hr post restriction

If you come back and refuse to abide by the moderating decision the punishment will be doubled.

[shinRaiden 0]

Last time they tried to whack Yassin, they used a small bomb to avoid civilian collateral casualties. He escaped with only minor injuries due to the low damage from the blast, and his heavy bodyguard prescence. That precipitaed a number of bombings in revenge.

While there likely was mossad agents or informers spotting the strike, putting a small sniper squad into that kind of area would be just about garaunteed suicide. Remember, they nailed him coming out of the mosque, with however many other thousands of people.

Skipping back a bit, way back to the bad old days of Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood based out of Hama, Syria, decided that they would throw out the Hafez Assad regime. The political organization of the M.B. was led by a group of wealthy and influential aristrocrats and their imams. Syria attempted to infiltrate and kidnap the leaders with Mukhabarat hit squads, but were repulsed by heavy weapons fire and snipers in the minarets of the mosques. Heavy casualties, bodies dragged through the streets, calls for jihad and revolution, etc.

Hafez had his brother Rifaat mass several armored divisions to support a mukhabarat offensive, which met with mixed results, as there was a significant stock pile of anti-tank weapons, and the irregulars repeated retreated to the alleys and rooftops. Finally, Hama was sealed off and the tank and helicoptor and heavy field artillery divisions ordered to liquidate the resistance. Only after the Al'Kaylani neighborhoods were desolated, the mosques leveled, and the leaders hauled off into the dark places, did resistance begin to die down.

The survivors fled to the M.B. factions and their Nassrite brothers in Egypt (remember that alliance?), who were later responsible for the assaination of the Egyptian PM(Sadat?). Because of this, the Queen Hapshepshut's tomb tourist massacure, and other acts of terrorism, the more radical elements of M.B. had the screws put to them by Egypt and again fled, to Gaza, where under Yassin's leadership they became Hamas. The fringe elements, mad that Hamas was being too lenient in its river-to-the-sea demands, joined up with Al'Aqsa and Al'Fatah.

Egypt likely is privately pleased with the attack, as it will likely destabilize the M.B. and Hamas. If Israel has suffered loss of tourist money, Egypt has had it far worse. All they have is tourism and Suez fees, and now they have to cover heavy military guard for the few tourist convoys.

Arafat also stands to gain, as this destabilizes the forces that would wrest the Gaza camps from mainline PLO/PA control. Yes, a line was crossed, but it is a line in the shifting sands, something that Sharon and Arafat both know well.

[Bernadotte 0]

I don't need much of an excuse to close this thread so I would strongly advise every one of you if you're going to post in here post carefully, calmly and respecfully.

Would that mean no more threads or discussion of ME events at the BI Forums?

If so, would that require a new board rule so newcomers would know that Israel is a forbidden topic at Bohemia's BB?

If not, then what would be solved by closing this thread if others would just take its place?

I'm asking in here because I believe that thread contributors (like me) should understand the full potential consequences of your warning.  Please feel free to respond in the "Ask a Mod" thread if you wish.

[Placebo 28]

It would mean no ME discussion beyond news items which would get closed once they waver beyond discussion on that specific news item.

But if everyone keeps a tight check on their emotions and thinks before pressing the "add reply" button there will be no need for that, it's disappointing when a "veteran" forum member acts in a way that jeopardises this or any other thread, so I think the best thing is that you guys who want threads like this to remain open act as "peacemakers" if you will and make sure that the discussions remain calm, collected and don't breach forum rules, that may mean having to ignore saying what you think is the right thing to say and instead think in a way that the rules think are ok, hopefully that makes sense?

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Saying Israel(the leaders) is acting like Nazis is "going one step to far", but only one step, not two.

It´s is a strange situation there and I can´t understand why there is NO solution to something similar to PEACE.

Killing this old man with a helicopter missile strike is the worst idea in israeli's history of bad ideas. Arrest him would have been the better way.

I know hamas is a terrorist organisation(and Yassin is founder and leader), but you only produce more terrorist attacks with those type of actions.

And what's the result?

Death of more innocent people......

MfG Lee

[Balschoiw 0]

I´m afraid this means war.

Now you have the middle east on fire.

Hamas threatens US and Israel

Quote[/b] ]"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime," Hamas said in a statement.

"All the Muslims of the world will be honoured to join in on the retaliation for this crime," the statement said.

The White house reaction on the assasination was so weak because of the jewish people in the USA who are worthy voters for Bush. This way will take the USA and Israel into a war they cannot win. It also brought high danger to europe.  AQ is likely to be able to join palestinians in their fight as the public supports them after this unneeded execution.

Israel started something that will slap back on them in an extend they can not think of.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Israel started something that will slap back on them in an extend they can not think of.

I agree for a 100%

MfG Lee

[shinRaiden 0]

Shifting sand, shifting winds. Give it a couple of weeks, and it will be old news.

I think what the mod's are after here is no calling the Jews "Children of hitler" and in reply no calling the palestinians "spawn of the jinn" for reasons that are invariably subjective and of personal opinion. There's been enough bloodshed that they don't need us desecrating their graves with our petty squables over trying to manipulate them for our own political purposes.

While I'm still not sure that Sharon has ever fully come clean about how much they knew about Shabra and Shatila, should we likewise ignore the atrocities ordered by Yassin? Is there anyone here with the gall to argue that life would be better off for the palestinian and israeli mothers deprived prematurely of their children by wackos wearing bombs?

If you disagree with assinaination like this because of religious moral reasons against killing or capital punishment, I respect your belief. If however, you believe that Israel should suffer more to compensate for its strength, your arguements will wind up in a philosophical cat fight that will result in this thread and topic being locked down.

[denoir 0]

I don't think anybody has any illusions of thinking of this in 'moral' terms. This is just pragmatical thinking. How many innocent lives do you think his life is worth? What about the peace process? Yeah, it was in coma, but now it's stone dead.

Equally one should not be naive about Sharon either. He ordered this to stirr up trouble. He knew exactly what reaction he would get.

Perhaps Sharon had his reasons but overall for the Mid East this could and will probably be very bad.

[shinRaiden 0]

@Lee, I respect you desire for a minimum of bloodshed by preferring that he be arrested rather than deep-sixed. But, from a strictly operations/tactical standpoint, do you (or anyone else for that matter) have a suggestion on how that might be done? Those neighborhoods are some of the most potentially dangerous CQB zones that you can imagine.

If you even send in a sniper squad so that it's less spectatular, how would you be able to extract them? You can't even extract by helicopter, too many RPG's to turn things into another mogadishu. The alleys are too narrow in many places to bring in armor, and there are machineguns setup in the rest of the places.

These are the guys who as kids cut their teeth working Beirut out of the camps, and they do what they are paid to do. Now that Saddam's martyrdom reimburshments are drying up, perhaps Al'Qaeda will pick up the slack. They aren't getting the money from Arafat that the rest of the ME and Europe has paid in protection money. Maybe it's time that all those who caved in and paid off Arafat should put the screws to him and tell him to get his cronies off their backs, so that they will end up getting something for their money.

[shinRaiden 0]

@Denoir: let's keep our little private jihad over rationalization of moral relativism to pm for the sake of keeping this thread open for the others. Your moral is my pragmatic, and vice versa. We've slaughtered enough threads already with it.

The peace process was a joke from pre-48. It is a dead corpse of frankenstien that gets drawn out every election time in any country, drawn and quartered for publicity's sake, then carefully put in a box for the next round down the road. Imagine peace... pretty boring, the fundraisers for both sides would all dry up too.

I personally think that while the next few weeks things will be tense, in the big picture this will turn down the heat on the pressure cooker by removing one of the chief burners.

[denoir 0]

@Denoir: let's keep our little private jihad over rationalization of moral relativism to pm for the sake of keeping this thread open for the others. Your moral is my pragmatic, and vice versa. We've slaughtered enough threads already with it.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I only stated that people object to his assasination not becuause he was such a nice person, but because the consequences that assasination might lead to. People are not objecting to the moral issue of killing a man but the very parctical consequences it may lead to.

[shinRaiden 0]

@Balschoiw

I wouldn't be suprised if Sharon said "Hey George, I got an idea I'd like to run by you..." and W responded with "Don't tell me, I rather see it in the papers. Just clean up your own mess." Does Arik the Buldozer really care what anybody else thinks?

What nobody has been really discussing is how the Mossad discovered that the Ashdod bombers TUNNELED under the Gaza fence, the prototype for the new fence. That has been kept very low key in the US media, and the Israeli papers as far as I've seen. If that is seriously substaniated, that could be the undoing of the whole fence adventure. The fence is designed to be a wall of seperation, but if it leaks like the chinese and magnoigt and seigfried walls did before, Arik's repeat voters could get real cranky real fast. A lot of folks are holding their breath hoping against hope that it works, that they'll finally be able to sleep at night in their little bubble, but if it should pop, I wonder what Israel would do internally.

[miles teg 1]

Good riddance?  What exactly has Israel rid itself of besides an old man in a wheelchair?

Do you honestly believe that Hamas will be weakened or discouraged by his death?

True, overall it might have been better off not to kill him directly, but lets just say I dont feel very sorry for the guy.

I agree. I don't like the way the Israelies assassinated him. It was clumsy, and blatant and will only provoke more violence. But this sheik was not some innocent old man like the pictures make him out to be. He was a ruthless politician who spurred on generations of suicide bombers with this firebrand sermons that twisted and distorted the Islamic faith into something that now groups like Al-Qaeda preach around the world.

So I feel no sympathy whatsoever for him. However I do think it was an incredibly stupid political move on the part of the Israelies.

Mossad is better then that. There are plenty of Palistinian rivals that could have been framed for his assassination. All it would have taken is one brave Mossad sniper who could pass for a Palistinian with ties to a rival faction if caught. Or they could have used explosives with certain signatures used by other Palistinian terrorist groups. Things that only fellow Palistinian bomb makers would notice and recognize as being from a particular bomb maker or group of so called "engineers".

Oh well... now the shit is really going to hit the fan. Hamas has many supporters in the United States. Their threat to attack the US must be taken very seriously. So now it looks like finally Al-Qaeda and the Palistinian militants are united... just as Israel wanted. Perhaps this is the reason why they did this highly provacative assassination... because they knew it would draw the United States deeply into their conflict.

Now we in America must sit and wait for Hamas's response against us. Lucky us.

If that is to be prevented Bush needs to draw a line telling Israel that enough is enough by threatening to cease military aid to Israel. That's not to say we're abandoning them, but that they are going to have to pay for their own helicopter gunships and fighter bombers rather then by through the US taxpayer dollars.

Sadly however I don't think the Bush administration will do that. They are Christian fundamentalists and ANY move against Israel is seen as a move against God.

So much for the seperation of church and state.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

@Denoir: let's keep our little private jihad over rationalization of moral relativism to pm for the sake of keeping this thread open for the others. Your moral is my pragmatic, and vice versa. We've slaughtered enough threads already with it.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I only stated that people object to his assasination not becuause he was such a nice person, but because the consequences that assasination might lead to. People are not objecting to the moral issue of killing a man but the very parctical consequences it may lead to.

I agree Denoir.. but sadly also many Muslims in the region believed this man was like an Islamic saint and that now he is one of Islam's greatest martyrs. It's sickening... but what we are seeing is a combination of factors pushing more and more Muslims into the militant camp. One big factor is the US and Israeli policies that tend to justify Islamic militantism because of clear abuses by the US and Israel while the other big factor is that moderate Muslims are not doing enough to stop Islamic militants because they are afraid to speak out against them or because they also hate the US and Israel and don't want to be seen as siding with the US and Israel.

The third big factor is of coarse terrorists that help to fuel the heavy handed and clumsy counter attacks by the US and Israel everytime they carry out their terrorist bombings.

It's an ugly downward spiral that nobody seems interested in stopping.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

The following was published a few years ago by United Press International (UPI):

Quote[/b] ]Analysis: Hamas history tied to Israel

By Richard Sale

UPI Terrorism Correspondent

Published 6/18/2002 8:13 PM

In the wake of a suicide bomb attack Tuesday on a crowded Jerusalem city bus that killed 19 people and wounded at least 70 more, the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, took credit for the blast.

Israeli officials called it the deadliest attack in Jerusalem in six years.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon immediately vowed to fight "Palestinian terror" and summoned his cabinet to decide on a military response to the organization that Sharon had once described as "the deadliest terrorist group that we have ever had to face."

Active in Gaza and the West Bank, Hamas wants to liberate all of Palestine and establish a radical Islamic state in place of Israel. It is has gained notoriety with its assassinations, car bombs and other acts of terrorism.

But Sharon left something out.

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.

According to documents United Press International obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were "weak and dormant" until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.

After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge.

"Social influence grew into political influence," first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran.

What took Israeli leaders by surprise was the way the Islamic movements began to surge after the Iranian revolution, after armed resistance to Israel sprang up in southern Lebanon vis-Å•-vis the Hezbollah, backed by Iran, these sources said.

"Nothing provides the energy for imitation as much as success," commented one administration expert.

A further factor of Hamas' growth was the fact the PLO moved its base of operations to Beirut in the '80s, leaving the Islamic organization to grow in influence in the Occupied Territories "as the court of last resort," he said.

When the intifada began, Israeli leadership was surprised when Islamic groups began to surge in membership and strength. Hamas immediately grew in numbers and violence. The group had always embraced the doctrine of armed struggle, but the doctrine had not been practiced and Islamic groups had not been subjected to suppression the way groups like Fatah had been, according to U.S. government officials.

But with the triumph of the Khomeini revolution in Iran, with the birth of Iranian-backed Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon, Hamas began to gain in strength in Gaza and then in the West Bank, relying on terror to resist the Israeli occupation.

Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One U.S. intelligence source who asked not to be named said that not only was Hamas being funded as a "counterweight" to the PLO, Israeli aid had another purpose: "To help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists."

In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could only listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who "were dangerous hard-liners," the official said.

In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.

But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

"Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with," he said.

All of which disgusts some former U.S. intelligence officials.

"The thing wrong with so many Israeli operations is that they try to be too sexy," said former CIA official Vincent Cannestraro.

According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."

"The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."

"They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said.

Aid to Hamas may have looked clever, "but it was hardly designed to help smooth the waters," he said. "An operation like that gives weight to President George Bush's remark about there being a crisis in education."

Cordesman said that a similar attempt by Egyptian intelligence to fund Egypt's fundamentalists had also come to grief because of "misreading of the complexities."

An Israeli defense official was asked if Israel had given aid to Hamas said, "I am not able to answer that question. I was in Lebanon commanding a unit at the time, besides it is not my field of interest."

Asked to confirm a report by U.S. officials that Brig. Gen. Yithaq Segev, the military governor of Gaza, had told U.S. officials he had helped fund "Islamic movements as a counterweight to the PLO and communists," the official said he could confirm only that he believed Segev had served back in 1986.

The Israeli Embassy press office referred UPI to its Web site when asked to comment.

The next thing they'll be trying to tell us that the US once supported Saddam Hussein or even Osama bin Ladin.