The Middle East part 2

[The Frenchman 0]

This is a few days old but I found it interesting...

PA Uses Microsoft Music for Hate Video

Quote[/b] ]IsraelNN.com) According to the Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) research organization, the Palestinian Authority has lifted music from a popular Microsoft Corporation video game and incorporated it into a video inciting against Israeli soldiers.

As PMW director Itamar Marcus reports, "Palestinian Authority TV has taken the music of a new popular Microsoft video game, Halo, and incorporated it into its newest hate video. According to Microsoft, Halo is being used by PATV without its permission."

Marcus explains, "For many years, a mainstay of PATV has been the repeated broadcasting of hate videos for children. Dominant themes have been the portrayal of violence as heroic, death for Allah (Shahada) as a goal for children, and the depiction of Israelis as murderers."

The current short video superimposes targets on images of Arab children, implying that Israeli soldiers are targeting and killing the children. As reported by PMW, "The Halo hate video has been broadcast hundreds of times since November 30, 2003, as a filler between programs – as often as six to seven times a day."

PMW wrote to Microsoft Corp. asking for their reaction to the incorporation of their video game music track as part of PA incitement.

Microsoft Customer Service wrote to PMW, "As a corporation, Microsoft does not maintain any involvement with activities of this nature. We were not aware of any media from the Palestinian Authority nor was permission granted to incorporate the Halo soundtrack as background music."

I didnt see any things that might break forum rules in the video so here is the link to it.

*LINK*

[Acecombat 0]

@ Avon:

Quote[/b] ]Does Bin Laden officiate, with the approval of the Saudi Arabian government, as a Sheik at an established mosque in Mecca, Medina, Riyad or elsewhere in Saudi Arabia, as these "scholars" do?

Does Bin Laden get scheduled TV and Radio broadcast time from within Saudi Arabia as theses "scholars" do?

I thought not.

No h doesnt but he probably gets better On air time then anyone    , you gotta admit that.

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and isn't Sheik Abd Al-Aziz Bin Abdallah AAl Al-Sheik the officially government appointed Mufti of Saudi Arabia?

Yes he is.

Quote[/b] ]So the Sheiks that get to broadcast their venom publicly are not TRUE MUSLIMS? They're not qualified to give public sermons like this because they are not mentally stable or don't know everything about Islam?

Avon read my previous answer to this , i told you the govt HAS NOW become very strict over such practises THEY NOW supply the KHUTBA or the sermon to the Imams now , BECAUSE some of these mullahs started their OWN ideology preaching without any consent with the GOVT (remember the govt here is i love USA ) these people have been SACKED already they arent in the top posts anymore can you get me a date as to when these were sermons (or whatever) they were spoken?

Heres something which might help though the Govt here keeps such matters very tightly knit so i wouldnt know if these mullahs were init but i think its a safe bet that all of them were asked to shut up and keep their patronising to themselves or learn more before coming up to preach to the muslims anything:

Many Imams, Muezzins Sacked - ARABNEWS

RIYADH, 17 April 2003 — In what was described as a move against imams “whose performance level has gone down,†Minister of Islamic Affairs Sheikh Saleh Al-Sheikh has fired a substantial number of imams and muezzins

Al-Sheikh called on imams “to learn from well-versed scholars. They should consult senior scholars on the issues they take up in the sermons.â€

He also urged them to adhere to the authentic contents of the holy book and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

He clarified the preachers had no right to put their own interpretation on matters relating to creative interpretation.

The minister took a swipe at preachers delivering sermons on matters unconnected with the Qur’an and the Sunnah. “It is inappropriate for preachers to convey to the faithful political or news reports in their sermons, as the preacher should be neither a broadcaster nor a journalist.â€

A few more links for you:

Dont Abuse the concept of Jihad

COncerning Suicide bombings on westerners

Hijacking planes and kidnapping

Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry. I don't know if the mosques listed have a members of 10 families or 10,000. There certainly is a difference. Maybe you can enlighten us with a background of the specific speakers. You said you would try to find such information.

As i said previously theyve been dealth with by the govt and if the govt has sealed the case and doesnt want anyone to know about it then i doubt if i will be able tofind  anything on these guys.

Quote[/b] ]What do we do with a quotation such as these:

"O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whose of you makes them his friends is one of them..." (V: The Tables: 55)

By becoming "one of them", does that mean that such a Muslim is a kafir?

Or the following verse:

"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)

ONE QUESTION!

Where the heck did you get those Quotes from?

The Quran i have doesnt have such things    

Thats a VERY VERY distorted translation avon i am guessing you picked them of from some usual jew (anti-islam site) or some KKK christain site...

Heres what my Quran says:

"Your real friends are no less then Allah, his messengers and the fellow ship of believers, those who establish regular prayers and regul;ar charity and they bow down humbly (in worship)" [Al-Maeda the table verse 55]

"And they have been commanded no more then this ; To worship Allah offering him sincere devotion , being true (in faith) ; to establish regular prayer ; and to practise regular charity and that is the religion right and straight" [Al-Bayyina the clear sign verse 5]

Quite a difference eh?

EDIT: I found out that you quoted verses 6-7 and not 5 which i was looking at sorry for the misunderstanding but the first one still stands corrected!

Ok that 'worse of creatures' thing is in context with a persons belief in GOD when he openly sees the TRUTH (the quranic words) and rejects them it refers to them on the basis of acceptance of Gods existence and NOT anyother attribute in other words you CAN still be a good human being and be a better person but if you dont believe in God even afetr looking at the proof then thats what th quran decribes such a person as , so its not a bigdeal in our day to day social interactions or ANYOTHER THING .

Quote[/b] ]If a Muslim killing a person with a treaty with Muslims is severely punished in the afterlife, what lesser punishment, if any, whether in this world or the afterlife, is in store for a Muslim killing a person with no such treaty?

This basics avon , i'll tell you anyway ,its the same punishment which he will suffer from if he kills a MUSLIM , that is OFF with his head or if the nearest of victims kith/kin pardons him for his mistake then he can live freely , the SAME RULES APPLY in other words.

Quote[/b] ]Any preacher of nonviolence in a Muslim context has my support.

I am a non violent person or so i think  

Oh btw that article is crap you posted if you still want me to take a swipe at it then plz post the specific thing which yuo want answered i dont think i have the time otherwise to wade through that guys misconceptions.

[Guest]

Just questions, not an attack...

I see that the large majority of Fatwahs concerning suicide bombing prohibit it because suicide is prohibited.  Is there any explanation converning killing civilians?  Like the militants who fire mortars into towns or gunmen who open fire on a crowded street and don't die themselves?

Here's another question concerning mercenaries.

While the story linked below claims this attack was done by a palestinian, later rumours surfaced saying it was a Sin Fein mercenary from Ireland.  Is it religiously permissible to seek the help of mercenaries?

Jerusalem Post Article March 2002

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is it religiously permissible to seek the help of mercenaries?

It is done in any content. Hiring mercenaries is not bound to any standard. Indeed even catholic church has a traditon with mercenaries and the swiss guard is still protecting the pope, so my answer is mercenaries are part of every process that can afford to pay them  

[Acecombat 0]

Just questions, not an attack...

I see that the large majority of Fatwahs concerning suicide bombing prohibit it because suicide is prohibited.  Is there any explanation converning killing civilians?  Like the militants who fire mortars into towns or gunmen who open fire on a crowded street and don't die themselves?

Here's another question concerning mercenaries.

While the story linked below claims this attack was done by a palestinian, later rumours surfaced saying it was a Sin Fein mercenary from Ireland.  Is it religiously permissible to seek the help of mercenaries?

Jerusalem Post Article March 2002

@rufusmac:

Quote[/b] ]I see that the large majority of Fatwahs concerning suicide bombing prohibit it because suicide is prohibited. Is there any explanation converning killing civilians? Like the militants who fire mortars into towns or gunmen who open fire on a crowded street and don't die themselves?

Yes rufus i already explained or maybe i didnt , but if you kill someone and hes a) innocent , b) non-combatant c) a woman/child/oldperson somone whos basically not a part of a conflict even though hes from the supposed enemys camp and has no intention to harm you THEN your entitled to the same punishment you would be in the case of a plain murder that is DEATH until unless YOUR actions were accidental i.e you didnt wanted to hurt them but they got in accidently BUT if it was deliberate then your entitled to a murder sentence. In other words ISLAMS ruling on killing someone is the SAME for everyone regardless of their race/creed/nationality/rligion if you killed a innocent person without any reason then your a MURDERER plain and simple if it was accidental you couldnt help it then you are forgiven and not held guilty.

Oh and punishment is the SAME for everycase no ones special.

Quote[/b] ]While the story linked below claims this attack was done by a palestinian, later rumours surfaced saying it was a Sin Fein mercenary from Ireland. Is it religiously permissible to seek the help of mercenaries?

I am sorry but i am in no position to answer that ACCURATELY in light with islamic teachings as this is a bit of complicated mattr and needs looking in to but from what i know it isnt religiously permissible to hire someone to kill civilians so thats off the line however if the atack was on a military installation then i dont know the exact ruling for that but i am GUESSING it isnt allowed since THAT hired person might not act/fight in the way prescribed to you in th Quran and might commit excesses (such as killing woman/children or innocent people in the course of his actions). I doubt if theirs any specific material on this in the QUran but a person or a influential imam can always perform "Qiyas" individual reasoning in to this matter and com to a conclusion but as i said i am in no position to answer that but i wouldnt deem it to be advisable to a military unit operating under Islamic code.

[Guest]

Just questions, not an attack...

I see that the large majority of Fatwahs concerning suicide bombing prohibit it because suicide is prohibited.  Is there any explanation converning killing civilians?  Like the militants who fire mortars into towns or gunmen who open fire on a crowded street and don't die themselves?

Here's another question concerning mercenaries.

While the story linked below claims this attack was done by a palestinian, later rumours surfaced saying it was a Sin Fein mercenary from Ireland.  Is it religiously permissible to seek the help of mercenaries?

Jerusalem Post Article March 2002

@rufusmac:

Quote[/b] ]I see that the large majority of Fatwahs concerning suicide bombing prohibit it because suicide is prohibited.  Is there any explanation converning killing civilians?  Like the militants who fire mortars into towns or gunmen who open fire on a crowded street and don't die themselves?

Yes rufus i already explained or maybe i didnt    , but if you kill someone and hes a) innocent , b) non-combatant c) a woman/child/oldperson somone whos basically not a part of a conflict even though hes from the supposed enemys camp and has no intention to harm you THEN your entitled to the same punishment you would be in the case of a plain murder that is DEATH until unless YOUR actions were accidental i.e you didnt wanted to hurt them but they got in accidently BUT if it was deliberate then your entitled to a murder sentence. In other words ISLAMS ruling on killing someone is the SAME for everyone regardless of their race/creed/nationality/rligion if you killed a innocent person without any reason then your a MURDERER plain and simple if it was accidental you couldnt help it then you are forgiven and not held guilty.

Oh and punishment is the SAME for everycase no ones special.

Quote[/b] ]While the story linked below claims this attack was done by a palestinian, later rumours surfaced saying it was a Sin Fein mercenary from Ireland.  Is it religiously permissible to seek the help of mercenaries?

I am sorry but i am in no position to answer that ACCURATELY in light with islamic teachings as this is a bit of complicated mattr and needs looking in to but from what i know it isnt religiously permissible to hire someone to kill civilians so thats off the line however if the atack was on a military installation then i dont know the exact ruling for that but i am GUESSING it isnt allowed since THAT hired person might not act/fight in the way prescribed to you in th Quran and might commit excesses (such as killing woman/children or innocent people in the course of his actions). I doubt if theirs any specific material on this in the QUran but a person or a influential imam can always perform "Qiyas" individual reasoning in to this matter and com to a conclusion but as i said i am in no position to answer that but i wouldnt deem it to be advisable to a military unit operating under Islamic code.

thanks, some good insight.

[theavonlady 2]

@ Avon:

Quote[/b] ]What do we do with a quotation such as these:

"O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whose of you makes them his friends is one of them..." (V: The Tables: 55)

By becoming "one of them", does that mean that such a Muslim is a kafir?

Or the following verse:

"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)

ONE QUESTION!

Where the heck did you get those Quotes from?

The Quran i have doesnt have such things    

Thats a VERY VERY distorted translation avon i am guessing you picked them of from some usual jew (anti-islam site) or some KKK christain site...

Heres what my Quran says:

"Your real friends are no less then Allah, his messengers and the fellow ship of believers, those who establish regular prayers and regul;ar charity and they bow down humbly (in worship)" [Al-Maeda the table verse 55]

"And they have been commanded no more then this ; To worship Allah offering him sincere devotion , being true (in faith) ; to establish regular prayer ; and to practise regular charity and that is the religion right and straight" [Al-Bayyina the clear sign verse 5]

Quite a difference eh?

EDIT: I found out that you quoted verses 6-7 and not 5 which i was looking at sorry for the misunderstanding but the first one still stands corrected!

Ok that 'worse of creatures' thing is in context with a persons belief in GOD when he openly sees the TRUTH (the quranic words) and rejects them it refers to them on the basis of acceptance of Gods existence and NOT anyother attribute in other words you CAN still be a good human being and be a better person but if you dont believe in God even afetr looking at the proof then thats what th quran decribes such a person as , so its not a bigdeal in our day to day social interactions or ANYOTHER THING .

I'm just making a small reply here, to the verses I asked about and to your last response.

Here are the same passages, as taken from the Quran Reference Text at Islam City. Do you consider this site, in your own words, the "usual jew (anti-islam site) or some KKK christain site"? Just let me know.

Note the correction to the verse numbers I was referencing:

Surah 5. The Table, The Table Spread:

51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Can you please explain this verse to me, now that I'm quoting verbatim from an Islamic site, pointing to the correct verse?

The site categorizes the above verse as follows:

Topics discussed in this Verse:

[Kabah] [People of the Book:do not take them for friends and protectors]

Regarding the other verses I asked about:

Surah 98. The Clear Proof, Evidence

6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.

I partially understand your explanation. What about a G-d believing and practicing Jew or Christian that does not accept the Quran and Mohammed?

Getting back to Surah 5. The Table, The Table Spread:

59. Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"

60. Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah. those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"

Now I know where the references to Jews as "mokeys and pigs" in numerous sermons comes from.

If it's not referring to Jews, then why does this site state on the above verse 60:

Topics discussed in this Verse:

[Jews:became apes and swine] [Kabah] [Taghuut (Evil)]

Another one:

64. The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

At Islam City, underneath the above verse, it states:

Topics discussed in this Verse:

[Jews:enmity of] [Jews:unbelief and blasphemy of] [Kabah]

From Websters Dictionary:

en-mi-ty (en'mi tee)  n. pl. <-ties>

                 1.  a feeling or condition of hostility;

                      hatred; ill will; animosity.

Quote[/b] ]Oh btw that article is crap you posted if you still want me to take a swipe at it then plz post the specific thing which yuo want answered i dont think i have the time otherwise to wade through that guys misconceptions.

Yes, I would like to know why you think the article Oh Moderate Muslims, Where Art Thou? is "crap" and needs to be swiped at.

[Pipski 0]

There are plenty of inane things, contradictions and ridiculous rulings in the Bible too, if you look for them. That doesn't make every Christian a pigskin-phobic, child-sacrificing nutjob though. In the same way I don't think that any particular passage in the Koran can be cited as evidence for the prosecution of terrorists.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]

I'm just making a small reply here, to the verses I asked about and to your last response.

Here are the same passages, as taken from the Quran Reference Text at Islam City. Do you consider this site, in your own words, the "usual jew (anti-islam site) or some KKK christain site"? Just let me know.

Note the correction to the verse numbers I was referencing:

Surah 5. The Table, The Table Spread:

51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Can you please explain this verse to me, now that I'm quoting verbatim from an Islamic site, pointing to the correct verse?

The site categorizes the above verse as follows:

Topics discussed in this Verse:

[Kabah] [People of the Book:do not take them for friends and protectors]

Hmm... a fair statement.   I have my opinions, but I should state clearly that they are not those of a Muslim.   Personally I believe those verses were written for Muslims at this time period who were embroiled in war with Christians and Jews.  

But I do find that verse odd because it was a Christian king who gave refuge to the prophet and his followers in the early days of Islam when the rulers of Mecca were trying to kill them.  

But I can see where for certain, Muslims can interpret that to mean that they should, today, not try and befriend any Jews or Christians.  But if that were true then Islam would have never spread very far as many people converted through dialog with Muslims on a personal level.  

I will ask my Sufi friends what they say about this verse.  In fact I will be meeting with a very knowledgable Sufi tomorrow and I will ask him about this verse.  If it is true, then what they are doing (interfaith dialog) is against the will of Allah according to the Qu'ran.

Quote[/b] ]

Regarding the other verses I asked about:

Surah 98. The Clear Proof, Evidence

6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

That "truth" is generally meant to be "There is only One God".  This to my knowledge is the most important thing in Islam. So Christians and Jews who do not submit to God are rebellious and ignore the "truth".    I know plenty of Christians for example who blatantly ignore most of the teachings of Jesus and yet consider themselves highly religious people.

That is at least how I interpret it.  But again I can not say that this is a common Muslim interpretation as I have not discussed this verse in depth with my Muslim friends.  I also know that many Muslims will add  "...and Mohammed is his messenger." and other item that MUST be accepted for one to be considered to be following the truth.  Others say that as long as Christians and Jews follow the basic teachings of Islam (doing good deeds, submitting to God in all aspects of life, ect... ect...) that they will be ok and are good people who Allah will accept.  But again... this is just my limited understanding and observations and may be incorrect.

Quote[/b] ]

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.

Amen to that.

Quote[/b] ]

I partially understand your explanation. What about a G-d believing and practicing Jew or Christian that does not accept the Quran and Mohammed?

The Qu'ran can answer that from the same chapter that the earlier quote you gave came from:

5.69: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good -- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Quote[/b] ]

Getting back to Surah 5. The Table, The Table Spread:

59. Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"

60. Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah. those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"

Now I know where the references to Jews as "mokeys and pigs" in numerous sermons comes from.

If it's not referring to Jews, then why does this site state on the above verse 60:

Topics discussed in this Verse:

[Jews:became apes and swine] [Kabah] [Taghuut (Evil)]

That verse I won't touch nor that definition that website gives.  But I suspect it may come from some older story about Jews that is outside of the Qu'ran.  

Good stuff for me to bring up however in my talks with Islamic scholars as they are important for me to see the many different interpretations of these verses that can used in the wrong mouths to justify very terrible things.

Quote[/b] ]

Another one:

64. The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

Jesus said similar things of Jews in the Bible.  However I do not think it says to have emnity and hatred for Jews until the day of judgement, but that such Jews shall suffer from this until that day.  Again however this may be specifically aimed at those Jews in which early Muslims were betrayed by or had conflicts with.   Personally I would take that meaning those who rebel against God and do not follow his teachings.

The Bible is full of such things including in the Old Testament (which comes from Judaism) in which the people of Israel were punished severely by God for commiting blasphemy and rebelling against God.    So really this isn't a new message.

Also keep in mind the prophet was dealing with Jews and Christians of his time and his area of the Middle East.

But I think that it is true that people who do not have moral standards and who generally do evil things that go against most religious teachings (in the majority of religions) are generally pretty miserable people.

Quote[/b] ]

At Islam City, underneath the above verse, it states:

Topics discussed in this Verse:

[Jews:enmity of] [Jews:unbelief and blasphemy of] [Kabah]

From Websters Dictionary:

en-mi-ty (en'mi tee)  n. pl. <-ties>

                1.  a feeling or condition of hostility;

                     hatred; ill will; animosity.

Yes, I would like to know why you think the article Oh Moderate Muslims, Where Art Thou? is "crap" and needs to be swiped at.

I read that article and while it had a few good points, I think the problem that they do not address is not just that of many moderate Muslims not speaking out against terrorism, but also that those who do speak up get very very little press attention if any at all.   I know from discussions on the internet with Muslims that many mosques are deeply embroiled in debate on these issues and certainly here in America most Islamic leaders here have spoken out publicly against terrorism and Islamic extremists.

At the same time, I would agree with the gist of the article in that regular Muslims of strong faith need to stand up strongly against terrorism.   But it's difficult when they have secular governments (or hypocritical poorly respected dictatorships that pose as Islamic) that suppress them strongly whenever they try and rally over any issue.   It also is difficult for them to rally around America as they see the gross hypocricy of America in its invasion of Iraq and how America and Israel treat Muslims in general.  

It's one of those things where each side blames the other and in truth both sides are to blame and need to work on their own faults.  

But the problem is that fighting against Islamic extremists means violence against fellow Muslims which is a VERY serious issue in Islam.  

So it's very complicated.  That is why I am doing research into non-violent solutions revolving around perception management, as well as very subtle, focused, and intelligent usage of violence by well trained specialists when all other options have been exhausted.  

This basically involves Islamic special operations forces who understand different cultures in the Middle East, can infiltrate militant Islamic groups and who can gather intelligence on weakpoints, areas of inter-group conflict, faction leaders, cells, meeting areas, political affiliations, where the extremists Imams were schooled, and perhaps even financial affiliations.  However most importantly is that they are also well trained in Islam by reputable scholars so that they do their jobs in accordance with Islam and for the purpose of preserving the religion and attacking those who threaten to undermine and corrupt the religion.

The scholars who train them must also serve as a council to help military planners and intelligence analysts determine the best coarse of action either through targetting such schools or communities for dialog, Islamic re-education, dis-creditation of their militant leaders, or if worse comes to worse, by physical elimination of their religious leaders.  However it must be done in very subtle ways that seem natural as if the will of Allah has struck down their leaders by natural disease and afflictions.   However such acts must not be construed by the "assassins" as being from the will of Allah because none of us know what his will is other then what is written in religious texts.  

Preferably non-violent means should be used such as providing scholarships to poor rural areas so that young men can study at Islamic schools where they teach middle of the road Islam teachings that are respected by all.   The United States could do an enormous amount of covert funding to such scholarships as well.  

 

So far I have yet to see any country in the Middle East attempt to form a small but well equipped Islamic task force, and certainly no Western country has tried this.

But if made up of specially selected individuals from most Islamic groups (Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufi, Allevi, and maybe even some more moderate Wahabi) it could provide a powerful force against terrorism and eventually a powerful force for Islamic unity as well.  

The danger however is in such a force being subverted and being used in ways it was not intended to be used for.  It would require a type of EXTREMELY clear constitution and mission parameters... and even then that would be no guarantee.  

For all I know I could burn in hell for all eternity for attempting to organize such things.

But if my goal is to serve God and to prevent massive bloodshed and war on this Earth that God has graced us with, then I pray that God will be merciful to me if the whole thing got screwed up and was turned to great evil.  

I should also say that all of this is only but a dream of mine... and may never happen.... it may simply be one of those ideas that come into this world but that are lost in the crush of the human consciousness of our society where all ideas must compete for space in the beliefs of societies.  

Edit-  I need to clarify something I said... I said most of my research is focused on "perception management".  By this I don't mean the type of "perception management" that the US Department of Defense does to promote support for war...but rather instead the opposite which is to promote support for peace through encouraging non-violent beliefs and action as well as promoting peaceful heroes as the greatest martyrs of religious faiths.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Acecombat 0]

Ah avon i'll clear it all up for you , it seems you are having some serious problems understanding some verses but there are MANY and when i say many i mean MANY factors and details and underlying meanings between thos verses which only when read in pure arabic accompanied with a good knowledge of islamic infancy history can be easily explained , Miles made some good points and cleared a fw of them i shall do them later asi am busy atm.

[denoir 0]

Avon, quoting religious texts won't give you a good deal of information on the practical reality and opinion of regular believers.

Let me give you an example. In the Bible there is a line from St Matthew's gospel in which the Jewish high priest Caiaphas says of the crucifixion: "His blood be on us and on our children.".

This would mean that Christians consider the Jews to have an original sin for killing Jesus. And indeed, this has been used by anti-semitic Christians through time.

However, Isralel's greatest friend and ally today are actually conservative Christians. Real-world intentions and religious dogma only further each other when their cause concides. Otherwise it is conveniently forgotten.

Religion is used as a base (or excuse) if you wish fro real-world decisions. Only extremists and fundamentalists go the other way around.

[miles teg 1]

Well said Denoir, however I would argue, that most serious Muslims are, to a certain extent, fundamentalists.   I don't mean that word in a bad way.  By "fundamentalist" I mean that most serious Muslims believe in the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran, more so even then most Christians I would argue.   So actually I think that Avon Lady's quotes of the Qu'ran are important matters to discuss.  What is happening here is interfaith dialog.   This is important because it educates people that not all Muslims follow violent religious leaders and that Muslims are capable of thinking for themselves and reading the Qu'ran themselves.

The religion of Islam is VERY rich in meaning, history, and scholarly analysis.  This is something many Muslims don't take the time to get into.  Like many fundamentalist Christians, they want someone to feed them quick and easy interpretations rather then to think and question interpretations and to really learn and discover the beauty of the Qu'ran.   In other words they are conservative.

From what I have seen there is little difference between conservative Christians and conservative Muslims.   They think very much in the same ways.  They don't like to think too deeply but prefer to view the world in an easy to understand "good vs. evil" way.  These types sometimes tend to be arrogant and self-righteous.  But some of them are still good people at heart.  They just are stubborn.  

Sharon is like that also.   I honestly think that Sharon is not an evil person.  He has taken some brave steps.  I just think that he is a conservative old man who is actually trying to find solutions.  But because he is conservative it is difficult for him to accept new ideas...but I see him trying.

However with that said, I hope Israel eventually gets a new leader who's wiser and who's knowledge of religions, culture, economics, and politics is broader and deeper then Sharon's.  

I sincerely think that if the spiritual leader of Hamas (I forget his name, but he's that old man in the wheel chair) was to renounce terrorism and actually reach out to Sharon with forgiveness and peace offering himself as a sacrifice, that it would move Sharon and most Israelies very deeply.  

Just a simple brave act of peace and love of humanity by an important leader I think could end this conflict in Israel by entirely changing the enviornment of this conflict.  

It would however not take away all of the real issues such as economic ones like water rights, control over Jerusalem, settlements, ect...

But steps towards peace and forgiveness would be VERY big steps in that direction towards an attitude of partnership (at least economically) rather then conflict.

If we had a President here in the United States that encouraged peace by engaging and having dialog with extremists on the Israeli and Palistinian sides I think this would have a greater chance of happening.  But currently the US still takes a very stupid "we don't talk to terrorists" attitude without realizing that dialog is actually an extremely good way to educate terrorists about some of their misconceptions and misunderstandings about Israelies and Americans (and vice versa).

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Tex -USMC- 0]

However, Isralel's greatest friend and ally today are actually conservative Christians. Real-world intentions and religious dogma only further each other when their cause concides. Otherwise it is conveniently forgotten.

Heh, funny story about that. Evangelical Christians support Israel's existence because Jewish repopulation of the Holy Land is a prerequisite for the Second Coming... which will, according to the same prophecies, lead to the firey death of the Jewish people. Religion and politics make strange bedfellows.

[Guest]

To further this irony with a funny story...  when I made the decision to move to israel, I applied for numerous grants to help with the rather prohibitive costs of picking up your life in one country and moving to another.  One of these philanthropic foundations was an Evangelical christian organization who was happy to help me "return to my homeland" on the precondition that when Jesus returns, I would convert to "the true faith"...

 

[Bernadotte 0]

@ Feb. 05 2004,04:27)]

However, Isralel's greatest friend and ally today are actually conservative Christians. Real-world intentions and religious dogma only further each other when their cause concides. Otherwise it is conveniently forgotten.

Heh, funny story about that. Evangelical Christians support Israel's existence because Jewish repopulation of the Holy Land is a prerequisite for the Second Coming... which will, according to the same prophecies, lead to the firey death of the Jewish people. Religion and politics make strange bedfellows.

Tex, I've heard this many times and I believe it's in the book of Revelations.  Would you (or anyone*) happen to know the exact chapter/verse?  From what I've heard, the fiery fate befalls those Israelites who do not ultimately convert to Christianity at the time of the second coming.

Btw, I'm not inviting a religious debate and I don't think Avon and Acecombat are either.  I would just like to raise Denoir's attention to a significant bit of Christian extremism within the very base of George W. Bush's real-world decision making.

And anyone who doesn't grasp the significance of it should read what Thomas Friedman wrote in today's New York Times:

Quote[/b] ]...Mr. Sharon has the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat under house arrest in his office in Ramallah, and he's had George Bush under house arrest in the Oval Office. Mr. Sharon has Mr. Arafat surrounded by tanks, and Mr. Bush surrounded by Jewish and Christian pro-Israel lobbyists, by a vice president, Dick Cheney, who's ready to do whatever Mr. Sharon dictates, and by political handlers telling the president not to put any pressure on Israel in an election year — all conspiring to make sure the president does nothing.

Edit:  * Rufusmac, could you check your contract please!

[Guest]

For the amount that was offered, I politely declined

[denoir 0]

To further this irony with a funny story...  when I made the decision to move to israel, I applied for numerous grants to help with the rather prohibitive costs of picking up your life in one country and moving to another.  One of these philanthropic foundations was an Evangelical christian organization who was happy to help me "return to my homeland" on the precondition that when Jesus returns, I would convert to "the true faith"...

   

LOL

Fairly many years ago, I had the misfortune of spending my summer vacation with a young relative of mine. The boy was a spoilt little brat and a complete pain in the ass (he was about 12 at the time). At one time he tried to get me to buy him a some action figure, or comic book - I don't quite remember. I agreed in exchange for his soul. We made a contract written in two languages and that we both signed. The humorous part for me at the time was that the boy was religious and was not too happy about the whole deal. Nevertheless, he formally sold his sould to me for a trivial sum (order of magnitude of a couple of euros). I still have the document somewhere.

I have never bothered to find out the religious implications by such a deal, but hearing your story I can't help to wonder if that piece of paper has some form of retail-value. Perhaps I can get a nice vacation somewhere if I sell it so some sect

[theavonlady 2]

@ Feb. 05 2004,04:27)]

However, Isralel's greatest friend and ally today are actually conservative Christians. Real-world intentions and religious dogma only further each other when their cause concides. Otherwise it is conveniently forgotten.

Heh, funny story about that. Evangelical Christians support Israel's existence because Jewish repopulation of the Holy Land is a prerequisite for the Second Coming... which will, according to the same prophecies, lead to the firey death of the Jewish people. Religion and politics make strange bedfellows.

Tex, I've heard this many times and I believe it's in the book of Revelations.  Would you (or anyone*) happen to know the exact chapter/verse?  From what I've heard, the fiery fate befalls those Israelites who do not ultimately convert to Christianity at the time of the second coming.

/avon remains cool as a cucumber

Quote[/b] ]Btw, I'm not inviting a religious debate and I don't think Avon and Acecombat are either.

Correct. I'm not here to argue About Islam's depictions, accounts and accuracy of, say, Abraham, Isaac and Yishmael. The Torah and the Quran are at total odds on such subjects.

Similarly, in reply to Denoir, I'm not arguing on the historical accuracy or inaccuracy of the New Testament. That, for example, is the argument going on now about Mel Gibson's new film on Jesus.

To get back on track, the issues I've brought up stem from the recent Reuters and AP newswires about sermons and events taking place during this year's hadj in Saudi Arabia. I did not know that one has to be an Islamic scholar to read Yahoo News items but this is part of what AceCombat retorted with to me:

Quote[/b] ]Its a pity not many muslims are on this forum to correct your baseless anti-islamic propaganda machine from where you spew out these crappy assumptions 24/7.

Bernadotte is right these sort of comments from you truly reflect your mentality.

These comments were made before I quoted anything directly from the Quran.

Only after the above did I then procede to quote verbatim the Quran itself and not in an aggressive way. To that AceCombat responded that I must be digging up dirt from anti-Islamic or even KKK sites, as if I have nothing better to do.

So yesterday I responded by quoting verbatim the same verses (with no essential text differences) and more from IslamCity.com. If this is a radical Islamic site in the eyes of the majority of practicing Muslims, please correct me. However, if it is radical, who's going to correct everyone else's opinion of this site?

To Miles Teg, how many Muslims in the world are Sufis who are affiliated with the moderate attitude of those you are in dialog with?

No offense but at points you come off as what sounds like being an apologist for others.

Quote[/b] ]  I would just like to raise Denoir's attention to a significant bit of Christian extremism within the very base of George W. Bush's real-world decision making.

And anyone who doesn't grasp the significance of it should read what Thomas Friedman wrote in today's New York Times:

Quote[/b] ]...Mr. Sharon has the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat under house arrest in his office in Ramallah, and he's had George Bush under house arrest in the Oval Office. Mr. Sharon has Mr. Arafat surrounded by tanks, and Mr. Bush surrounded by Jewish and Christian pro-Israel lobbyists, by a vice president, Dick Cheney, who's ready to do whatever Mr. Sharon dictates, and by political handlers telling the president not to put any pressure on Israel in an election year — all conspiring to make sure the president does nothing.

Let's see................. Arik Sharon "dictates" to Bush..........

Sounds just like something out of the Protocols.

BTW, Israeli radio reports just the opposite. Bush isn't going to lift a finger for Israel unless Sharon put his words into action.

[theavonlady 2]

Fairly many years ago, I had the misfortune of spending my summer vacation with a young relative of mine. The boy was a spoilt little brat and a complete pain in the ass (he was about 12 at the time). At one time he tried to get me to buy him a some action figure, or comic book - I don't quite remember. I agreed in exchange for his soul. We made a contract written in two languages and that we both signed. The humorous part for me at the time was that the boy was religious and was not too happy about the whole deal. Nevertheless, he formally sold his sould to me for a trivial sum (order of magnitude of a couple of euros). I still have the document somewhere.

I have never bothered to find out the religious implications by such a deal, but hearing your story I can't help to wonder if that piece of paper has some form of retail-value. Perhaps I can get a nice vacation somewhere if I sell it so some sect  

I see great financial potention here.

(an oldie but a goodie)

[Bernadotte 0]

...I can't help to wonder if that piece of paper has some form of retail-value.

LOL... I wonder if you can get Christian a$$i$tance relocationg to Israel by offering someone else's soul.  

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Well, as per your request, I did a little digging in Revelations to find some verses to substantiate that anecdote. What a mistake that was. Revelations is without a doubt the most scattered, bass-ackwards piece of religious literature that has ever been devised. It's late, and I didn't have time to comb anywhere near the entire book, but I did find a few things that, while not specifically referencing a fiery death, certainly single the Jewish people out for all kinds of Biblical unpleasentness. This is particularly obvious in Luke 21:20-28

Quote[/b] ]21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Needless to say, this has piqued my curiousity, so I'll try and find more at a later date; unfortunately I'm leaving town tomorrow and won't be back until Sunday.

[theavonlady 2]

I sincerely think that if the spiritual leader of Hamas (I forget his name, but he's that old man in the wheel chair)

Yassin.

Quote[/b] ] was to renounce terrorism and actually reach out to Sharon with forgiveness and peace offering himself as a sacrifice, that it would move Sharon and most Israelies very deeply.

Are our ISPs connected to the same planet?

Quote[/b] ]Just a simple brave act of peace and love of humanity by an important leader I think could end this conflict in Israel by entirely changing the enviornment of this conflict.

Like Yitzhak Rabin's entering into the Oslo Accords perhaps?

I also know the words to school days songs like "I dreamed the world had all agreed to put an end to war".

In fact, in school, we also used to sing (and my kids do now)The Prophet Isiah's words about the end of days:

Isiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But anyone imagining that the time is ripe for both sides here to say "if you drop your weapons, I'll drop mine" just doesn't know what's flying here and is simply being childishly naive.

Quote[/b] ]If we had a President here in the United States that encouraged peace by engaging and having dialog with extremists on the Israeli and Palistinian sides I think this would have a greater chance of happening.  But currently the US still takes a very stupid "we don't talk to terrorists" attitude without realizing that dialog is actually an extremely good way to educate terrorists about some of their misconceptions and misunderstandings about Israelies and Americans (and vice versa).

It didn't work for Chamberlain and the rest of Europe 65 years ago. Learn from history, both past and present. The lessons to be learned are almost identical.

[theavonlady 2]

@ Feb. 05 2004,10:18)]Needless to say, this has piqued my curiousity, so I'll try and find more at a later date

I don't think that's too necessary. There are tons of such verses to be found in the New Testament.

And while it partially explains the background to such historical events as the Crusades, the Inquisition and a the general anti-semitic attitude of Christians throughout the ages, it is currently not a very relevant part of the story and politics within Middle East events in 2004.

[denoir 0]

@ Feb. 05 2004,10:18)]Needless to say, this has piqued my curiousity, so I'll try and find more at a later date

I don't think that's too necessary. There are tons of such verses to be found in the New Testament.

And while it partially explains the background to such historical events as the Crusades, the Inquisition and a the general anti-semitic attitude of Christians throughout the ages, it is currently not a very relevant part of the story and politics within Middle East events in 2004.

You are saying that anti-semitism is in the core of the Quran and that it is a major reason why Arabs are anti-semitic. Christians on the other hand are your greatest allies and supporters despite all the anti-semitic segments in the Bible.

So your conclusions about the Quran/anti-semitism must be wrong, unless muslims have a radically different approach of reading the Quran than the christians read the bible.

[Bernadotte 0]

@ Feb. 05 2004,10:18)]Needless to say, this has piqued my curiousity, so I'll try and find more at a later date

I don't think that's too necessary. There are tons of such verses to be found in the New Testament.

And while it partially explains the background to such historical events as the Crusades, the Inquisition and a the general anti-semitic attitude of Christians throughout the ages, it is currently not a very relevant part of the story and politics within Middle East events in 2004.

Evangelical Christian support for the pro-Israel lobbies in Washington is very relevant.  Or do you honestly think that AIPAC got all the way up to 4th place with the support of only 2 - 3% or the public?

Btw, they held 2nd place during the mid-90s.