The Middle East part 2

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

israels actions really bug me, if the ywant peace why do they keep winding the arabs up. I mean are they stupid or just plain stupid?

[Sennacherib 0]

just a thing: Palestinians aren't really arab. they are like

Hebrews, a part of Canaanites. it's really stupid to see brother make war, just for some old legends, i mean the bible. the bible is like the Andersen's stories. And Josuah the great "conqueror" was in fact a canaanite, who with his tribe came back to his homeland.

the real problem is the Jewish immigrants, because most of them come from europe, and they don't understand the Middle-east.

they should burn all these old legends and live together. religions are poison.

[Nemesis6 0]

just a thing: Palestinians aren't really arab. they are like

Hebrews, a part of Canaanites.

That is wrong. Plain and simple, wrong. If we're going to talk about this, you might as well get the whole picture - The original Palestinians were the Jews. The Arabs took this identity during the many wars with Israel. A PLO ambassador has even admitted to this. But the Palestinians we see today, being the Arabs, are from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Ethnically, they are no different than their Arab brethren. The Arabs who really were in the region were largely a nomadic people.

[bucket man 2]

just a thing: Palestinians aren't really arab. they are like

Hebrews, a part of Canaanites.

That is wrong. Plain and simple, wrong. If we're going to talk about this, you might as well get the whole picture - The original Palestinians were the Jews. The Arabs took this identity during the many wars with Israel. A PLO ambassador has even admitted to this. But the Palestinians we see today, being the Arabs, are from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Ethnically, they are no different than their Arab brethren. The Arabs who really were in the region were largely a nomadic people.

Yes the current palestinians are arabs and not canaanites, the canaanites are long gone and dont exist anymore.

However the palestinians are not from Syria, Jordan, Egypt but they are from Palestine.

I have hard time understanding why anybody would try to justify Israels actions because the palestinians are arabs.

Would the british be OK if Poland invaded them and told them to move to France because "they are ethnically the same".

This conflict is not about religion or ethnicity but about nationalism.

[Sennacherib 0]

just a thing: Palestinians aren't really arab. they are like

Hebrews, a part of Canaanites.

That is wrong. Plain and simple, wrong. If we're going to talk about this, you might as well get the whole picture - The original Palestinians were the Jews. The Arabs took this identity during the many wars with Israel. A PLO ambassador has even admitted to this. But the Palestinians we see today, being the Arabs, are from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Ethnically, they are no different than their Arab brethren. The Arabs who really were in the region were largely a nomadic people.

please stop, don't use wikipedia, but read an History book. Palestinian was a roman word for Phoenician. yeah sure, they are a mix, but like in north africa most of the people are autochtones.

and i used "really"

Quote[/b] ]Yes the current palestinians are arabs and not canaanites

it's false, take the recent genetic studies. but yeah, their culture now is the arabian culture, with some mix from europe, usa, and indigenous culture.

Quote[/b] ] Ethnically, they are no different than their Arab brethren

it's not true. the different peoples have their own culture. a palestinian is not an iraqi, and an iraqi is not a tunisian. they have in common a part of the old arabian culture, and a part of the language, but this is all.

sorry i don't know the word "brethen", and the google translator don't know either

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]but like in north africa most of the people are autochtones.

Excluding the proud berberian and kabyles people, who represent the last indigenous minorities that survived through centuries, the rest of north africans are mostly arabs who established in north africa during the major arabic crusades.

Concerning the current issue, I don't get the point of flying over UNIFIL forces, violating the lebanese airspace and legitimating an "attack" against the israeli aircrafts.

This makes no sense at all, and as stated in the temporary threaty of "peace", israelis, like lebanese aren't allowed to face each other and this is the main mission of UNIFIL forces, they have to secure an area between both sides, and they are allowed to ENGAGE any side violating the rules, and israelis should keep that in mind imho.

Both sides should rather focuse on establishing a kind of "peace", ignoring each other, because paradoxally, Hezzis do it much better than israelis thus far.

regards,

Thunderbird

[ran 0]

What the hell is wrong with israeli pilots ? The german ship, the german helicopter and now the french troops ? What the hell are they trying to do ? Looks like they WANT to get shot at.

I commend the grunt sitting behind the Mistral fire control for not having an itchy finger, especially considering some recent past experiences involving planes in another shithole.

Shouldn't say that, but no matter what diplomatic shitstorm it would cause, I'd love to see the next winged cow boy of the Heyl HaAvir get his attitude problem settled with a few tungsten balls in his airframe as chill pills.

The israelis by acting or letting their boys act like that are loosing a lot of sympathies.

[Nemesis6 0]

Israel? Losing sympathy from France? Heh.

Anyway, Dante - Palestine is what the Romans called Israel after they conquered it. And why do you think I got this from Wikipedia? Does it say the same there? The Palestinians are Arabs. They are NOT related to the original inhabitants of Palestine as they're pretty much extinct.

By the way - You didn't find anything on that word because you spelled it wrong...

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

just a thing: Palestinians aren't really arab. they are like

Hebrews, a part of Canaanites.

That is wrong. Plain and simple, wrong. If we're going to talk about this, you might as well get the whole picture - The original Palestinians were the Jews. The Arabs took this identity during the many wars with Israel. A PLO ambassador has even admitted to this. But the Palestinians we see today, being the Arabs, are from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Ethnically, they are no different than their Arab brethren. The Arabs who really were in the region were largely a nomadic people.

that is an incorrect statement, the original palastinian were not jews.  palastine was occupied by nomads and arabs long before the exodus (when jews in numbers first began to settle in palastine).

as for france loosing its sympathy to Israel, did it really have any? The suez crisies was about the only time they worked together, and even then the French and British were out for there own good.  The usa got pissed of with britian and france for talking to Israel without its 'permission' (ha). A cinic person might say France just make a fuss nowdays becuase there annoyed they no longer have a big say in international affairs.

Also races dont go extinct, they just develop differently over time with added genes to the dna, simple biology.  to call the original race of palastine extinct is rather foolish, and there will be generatin of people all over the middle east and further still related to them.

[Nemesis6 0]

just a thing: Palestinians aren't really arab. they are like

Hebrews, a part of Canaanites.

That is wrong. Plain and simple, wrong. If we're going to talk about this, you might as well get the whole picture - The original Palestinians were the Jews. The Arabs took this identity during the many wars with Israel. A PLO ambassador has even admitted to this. But the Palestinians we see today, being the Arabs, are from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Ethnically, they are no different than their Arab brethren. The Arabs who really were in the region were largely a nomadic people.

that is an incorrect statement, the original palastinian were not jews. palastine was occupied by nomads and arabs long before the exodus (when jews in numbers first began to settle in palastine).

as for france loosing its sympathy to Israel, did it really have any? The suez crisies was about the only time they worked together, and even then the French and British were out for there own good. The usa got pissed of with britian and france for talking to Israel without its 'permission' (ha).

Also races dont go extinct, they just develop differently over time with added genes to the dna, simple biology. to call the original race of palastine extinct is rather foolish, and there will be generatin of people all over the middle east and further still related to them.

These nomads, or the majority of them at least I could imagine, live in Israel now. The ones who live in the West Bank and Gaza are the ones who left Israel in 1948 hoping it would be destroyed by the Arab armies when they came back. Them, and a mixture of the Arabs of the surrounding theocracies.

By the way, the Palestinians WERE the Jews. You can't dispute that no matter what you throw out there. What we call Palestinians today are:

1 - The Arabs who came to Palestine with the Jews in the Zionist initiative.

2 - The decendents of the few nomadic tribes that lived in the land in the past few centuries.

The Palestinians like to say that they're related to the Phillistines who were a Greek people, when in fact, they're not.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

maybe your correct, but this is anchiant history, lets look at modern history.  in the 1800's the amount of jews living in palastine was small, that you cant deny.  the amount of arabs was much larger. The arabs were promies a homeland free from both Ottamen rule, and later British rule on several occasions.  then finally when the area was made soverign, it was given the the jews.  now flip the coin and think of how agreeved the jewish people would be if it was the other way around.  Dont you think they would do all there might to get "there homeland" back. dont you think the jews would muster all there might to drive the arabs into the sea?  well we know the jews would definatly do that by looking at there terrorist activities in the late 40's early 50's, killing hundreds of inocents.  Reality is jewish opinion is no different from the arab opinion towards each other.  Israel is quick to critise arab leaders who want to obliterate israel, but if it was revers, the view of the Jews would be exactly the same of the Arabs that surrond them today.

[Nemesis6 0]

Only problem with your argument was that the Arabs have several times rejected a state. And this is in addition to the fact that they already recieved their state - Jordan. This is the state that was established for the Palestinians. It's not a war for "their land", it's a war to take that of others.

Let me spurt out a few interesting facts - Following the War of Independance, Egypt and Jordan stole the land of the almost-created second Arab state - The one that was to be created in the West Bank and Gaza. Jordan took the West Bank. Never once was there even talk of creating this state. The Palestinians did not mind this. But when the Israelis took these areas back in 1967, they suddenly wanted their land back. The PLO was formed in 1964, before these areas were under Israeli control. Does that make sense? No, the terror started when the areas came under Israeli control. But there is logic in this. The PLO, being the basis of the Palestinian government of today, had only one goal back then and it still retains it today. That goal is to kill yahud.

[Garcia 0]

Only problem with your argument was that the Arabs have several times rejected a state. And this is in addition to the fact that they already recieved their state - Jordan. This is the state that was established for the Palestinians. It's not a war for "their land", it's a war to take that of others.

Seeing that the jews didn't own too much of what now is Israel, it wasn't "their land".

[Nemesis6 0]

You know that the Jews cultivated and bought the land.....

Right?

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

well its hard to say they "bought" it , becuase there wasnt any proper documentation, it was sold to them without consulting the arabs natives who lived on it, due to the lack of records. The jews certinly cultivated it, with irragation scemes and what not. Thats where the problems start. Arabs moved on from land they have been living on for generations. Forced, with the creation of isreal, out of there homeland into countries such as Jordan, Syria and the Lebonnen. Saying that palastinian muslims should just go live in Jordan becuase thats there arab state is like saying why dont israelis all go to the United states becuase it has a high population of jews.

[Nemesis6 0]

Quote[/b] ]Arabs moved on from land they have been living on for generations.

Generations? Probably. They moved out hoping the Arab armies would make all of Palestine judenrein for them.

Quote[/b] ]Forced, with the creation of isreal, out of there homeland into countries such as Jordan, Syria and the Lebonnen.

That's a lie. The Arabs were not forced out of Israel. Their fellow Arab's armies encouraged them to "get out so we can get in". Whereas the Jewish community encouraged them to stay. They chose not to, and now they face the consequences. The reason that this lie travels around is because of propaganda.

Quote[/b] ]Saying that palastinian muslims should just go live in Jordan becuase thats there arab state is like saying why dont israelis all go to the United states becuase it has a high population of jews.

Except Israel is the cornerstone of Zionism/Judaism. Muslims can go to Medina. Muslims can go to the Kaaba. Jews, however, can't prey at the temple mount, but for some reason, they've settled for the land in which their entire history and culture stems from; The place where their kind have lived for several thousands of years.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

That's a lie. The Arabs were not forced out of Israel. Their fellow Arab's armies encouraged them to "get out so we can get in". Whereas the Jewish community encouraged them to stay. They chose not to, and now they face the consequences. The reason that this lie travels around is because of propaganda.

they've settled for the land in which their entire history and culture stems from; The place where their kind have lived for several thousands of years.

no its not a lie, they went in fear. Jews were attacking arabs as arabs attacking jews. It could have easily turned into a anti-arab bloodbath - which it didnt, but as from examples like India things can turn very ugly very quickly when countries gain soverignty.

But Islam and also Christianity stem out of the same place, both massive religious and cultural heritige in exactly the same area. Thats what some Israelis fail to understand and think its soly a Jewish area.

[Sennacherib 0]

Quote[/b] ]the Palestinians WERE the Jews

no they were canaanites (jews, phoenicians, Amorites, etc was different part of a same culture: the Canaanites)

but it's an old history, the most import thing is the presnt time.

i hate the religions. but for me jerusalem should be an international city for the christians, jews and muslims.

Quote[/b] ]Jews, however, can't prey at the temple mount

yeah, it's abnormal. Jews must be able to go there.

Quote[/b] ]they've settled for the land in which their entire history and culture stems from

ok, but it wasn't really legal. if tomorrow Bretons want to come back at their first land. i'm sure that English people will begin a war. it's the same thing for the palestinians, you must accept, that they have the right to be angry. because they lost their houses, the tombs of their famillies, the land of their history.

but Israel now is a country, and i hope to see the peace in this part of the world. the past is the past. Palestinians should stop to kill their children in stupid and futile attacks. but try to create their country for their next generations. and Israelis should try to open their hearts to them, and destroy the atrocious wall, which serves no one.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

the only way this is ever going to end is if Israel do somthing. if they carried out a no-retribution, no needless voilence policy, maybe some muslims would change there opinions of it. its no use saying, "no they wouldnt" , becusae im pretty sure some would. ofcourse for a while things in israel might become bad, but eventually the terrorists would start to look like terrorists. but becusae of isreals over the top revenge strikes, that kill more civilians than 1 careless rocket fired over a wall could ever hope to kill, muslims go on hating israel and praising terrorists as freedom fighters.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

What the hell is wrong with israeli pilots ? The german ship, the german helicopter and now the french troops ? What the hell are they trying to do ? Looks like they WANT to get shot at.

I commend the grunt sitting behind the Mistral fire control for not having an itchy finger, especially considering some recent past experiences involving planes in another shithole.

Shouldn't say that, but no matter what diplomatic shitstorm it would cause, I'd love to see the next winged cow boy of the Heyl HaAvir get his attitude problem settled with a few tungsten balls in his airframe as chill pills.

The israelis by acting or letting their boys act like that are loosing a lot of sympathies.

I wonder what would happen after that...

Fact is, something like that could happen sooner rather than later... And since the U.N. Mandate has permission to shoot ANY side violating the peace... Well, I guess the Israelis would go to war against the United Nations... No matter how stupid that would be...

[Bernadotte 0]

You know that the Jews cultivated and bought the land.....

Right?

You do know that they only bought 5% and then <s>stole</s> ended up with over 50%, right?  

[Sennacherib 0]

don't forget some Arabs are also jews. the word "arab" is not a synonym of muslim.

and all the jews are not hebrews. Ethipian people are semitic like the hebrews, but they are not hebrews. Russian jews are not hebrews. etc

it is important to make the distinction. to make generalities is always a bad thing.

[mp_phonix 0]

That depends.

I for example was not born in Israel. I was born in Ukraine [but it was still part of the USSR then] and came to Israel in 1991, and I am a jew, a "russian jew" to your description :P

For example, I have friends in my class who were born here but there great/grandfathers were not, and for example came here form Yemen, Maroco, Algeria etc. There are also jews from europe which are called "Ashkenazim" here. And yes also jews from Ethiopia.

@Bernadotte

They want the land that we bought to, didn't you know ?

[Garcia 0]

They want the land that we bought to, didn't you know ?

Well, the jews bought about 5% (give or take some) and then took/stole/whatever you want to call it quite much land from the population living there. Do you really think they now give a shit about wether or not the jews bought something or not. Seeing that the jews took much of their land, they probably see that it's just fair that they can take all of the land back, including what the jews bought...

[Sennacherib 0]

Quote[/b] ]and I am a jew, a "russian jew" to your description :P

for me you are israeli. i wanted to say, that the word "arab" is sometimes not appropriate for some people. this is the same thing for the word "hebrew".

i mean:

all palestinians are not arab and all israelis are not hebrew.