The Middle East part 2

[Nemesis6 0]

It's funny how Bernadotte, a typical guy that isn't anti-Israel, he just disagrees with the government's decisions, has started criticizing the very traditions and culture of Israel. Could it be that he has a deeper grudge...?

This little incident reminds me of that one with CsonkaPityu, a typical guy just against Israel's actions, not antisemitic in any way. Well other than randomly posting Jew-jokes and then... what happened then? Oh yeah, Bernadotte defended his actions.

Pattern?

[dmakatra 1]

I see nothing wrong with critic against culture and traditions, that just show that the poster has taken a deeper look into the topic. Most often the answers to political debates are hidden in the culture of the people in question. The reasons are simply much more deep-rooted than "just" politics.

[martinovic 0]

Quote[/b] ]Pattern?

Other then you being a liar i see no pattern.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Quote[/b] ]Pattern?

Other then you being a liar i see no pattern.

You forgot to mention mp_phoenix's certified illogical insanity...

[xawery 0]

This little incident reminds me of that one with CsonkaPityu, a typical guy just against Israel's actions, not antisemitic in any way. Well other than randomly posting Jew-jokes and then... what happened then? Oh yeah, Bernadotte defended his actions.

Pattern?

How did Bernadotte defend him? IIRC (I can't be bothered to browse all the pages of this thread, but if you happen to know the exact page number, pass it on please), all Bernadotte did was say that his friend's research showed that the people who helped the Jews during the war are rather anti-judaic. The same thing happened here in the Netherlands, the famous February Strike in 1941. When asked about the reason for the strike, the people replied "they may be bloody Jews (rotjoden), but they're OUR bloody Jews!".

Anyway, I can't say that I care for ethnic jokes of any kind. They're usually in poor taste and symptomatic of a simplistic mind. What strikes me though, is the fact that only Jews interpret ethnic jokes directed at them as being a direct attack on their right to exist.

"Wait", you may say, "don't they have the right to do so? After all, didn't Hitler try to wipe them off the face of the earth?" True, but let's take a look at the other victims of the Holocaust. What, there were other victims than Jews?? Yes indeed, though many people seem to forget it. Poles, Serbs, Roma, Sinti, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians... But let's take a specific look at the Poles, the Nazi's first target. 5-6 million Poles were killed in the Holocaust. Half of them were non-Jews. The eradication of the Poles was one of Hitler's first goals. Hitler in 1939: "kill without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space [lebensraum] we need". Himmler: "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." Poles were also made to wear special markings in the concentration camps:

One can thus not deny that the Poles suffered greatly during WWII, and were systematically persecuted, just like the Jews. There's even a Polish equivalent of anti-judaism: antipolonism. Despite these horrid experiences, have you ever seen the Poles (mis)use the horrors of the Holocaust to justify their actions? What about the Polish jokes which are so popular in the USA? Do you see the ambassador complaining about that? If Mel Gibson would have said "The Poles control this world, you know. Are you a Pole?" to the policeman who stopped him, do you think that the same hoopla would ensue? When the film Uprising was released, were there any riots about the inaccurate and negative portrayal of the Poles? The answer to all these questions is: NO.

The Jews' suffering in WWII, while horrible in it's own right, was not unique. However, if you ask a random person on the street about the Holocaust, 9 times out of 10 he/she will not be aware of any other victims of this tragedy. This is very unfair. It seems almost as if the Jews have "monopolised" the suffering caused by Nazi Germany, and used it as an ultimate and unalienable justification for all kinds of actions. This is a tremendous shame; ultimate truths dispense with any need for reflexion. I, for one, believe that many of the things going wrong in the Middle East right now may be traced back to this self-imposed righteousness. How else can one explain the disproportionate, non-compromising attack on Lebanon? If every conflict is being interpreted in the light of the supposedly unique position of the Jews in WWII, then one is bound to overreact.

Incidentally, I would like to express my admiration for you Nemesis6, as strange as it may sound. I may not agree with you, I may find your reasoning faulty, but I cannot help admiring the tenacity with which you persist in defending your viewpoints. Especially considering the fact that you are ideologically outnumbered on these boards. For every post that you write, you can expect at least 3-4 negative replies, yet you persevere. I find this truly commendable. And just to be perfectly clear: I am not being sarcastic in any sense - my admiration is genuine.

[SPQR 0]

It's funny how Bernadotte, a typical guy that isn't anti-Israel, he just disagrees with the government's decisions, has started criticizing the very traditions and culture of Israel.

However Nemesis6 got a point, as how could someone critisize another's military traditions based on history because everyone's military traditions is already tainted with rivers of blood shed in the past, some recalled today as deeds.

For that, Nemesis6, I beg your pardon for having tried to make fun of Israël's history.

The current topic is about war and peace in Middle-East, not how those inhabitants live and should live with their traditions. Doing so just make us look like those we critisize.

Without agreeing with the used methods and the chosen objectives, I do agree with Xawery about Nemesis6 and mp_phonix's boldness for keeping arguing in spite of behind alone under "heavy fire" arguing.

For exemple, we shouldn't forget that mp_phonix lives in a dangerous place in a state at war, where rockets striking near your home for long, aren't just concepts and words. It is a good reason for having a strong point of view, some may called biaised.

[Bernadotte 0]

Could it be that he has a deeper grudge...?

Sorry Nemesis6, I didn't mean to frighten you.  Please don't commit any ceremonial suicides, ok.  I'm not really as dangerous as you may wish to believe.

Btw, does anyone remember the following scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian:

Quote[/b] ]Suicide Squad Leader:  We are the Judean People's Front crack suicide squad! Suicide squad, attack!

[they all stab themselves]

Suicide Squad Leader:  That showed 'em, huh?

I guess Monty Python must have some "deeper grudge" too.  

This little incident reminds me of that one with CsonkaPityu, a typical guy just against Israel's actions, not antisemitic in any way.  Well other than randomly posting Jew-jokes and then... what happened then? Oh yeah, Bernadotte defended his actions.

Prove it!!

As you can see from my response I actually said his joke was racist.  And please don't forget that the mods gave you a few days off for flame-baiting.  I suppose they must have some "deeper grudge" against you too, huh?

 Keep trying.

[xawery 0]

Please note that my admiration was directed at Nemesis6 only...

With regard to the criticising/discussing traditions: I can understand where Bernadotte was coming from. A nation's traditions reflect it's mindset. Choosing the site of a mass suicide can (note the emphasis) be interpreted as a reinforcement of a mentality of victimhood. However, that is mere speculation and as such irrelevant. If we cherry-pick specific events from the history of ethnic groups, we will be able to prove whatever we like.

Besides, all nations like to wallow in self-pity. Let's use WWII again (as it seems to be the yardstick for all events...): the French see themselves as victims, although they (partially) collaborated with the Germans. The Dutch see themselves as victims, although the NSB actively participated in deporting Jews and most volunteer SS came from Holland. The Russians see themselves as victims, although they didn't bat an eyelash when they raped and pillaged on their way to Berlin. The Polish see themselves as victims, altough numerous Poles assisted in persecuting Jews. The Austrians see themselves as victims, although they welcomed the Nazi's with open arms. Hell, even the Germans see themselves as victims ("Wir haben es nicht gewusst!").

All in all, victimhood is a popular trend amongst nations. Few are willing to face the dark pages in their own history, and this is the major problem of our world. If we were able to look objectively at our respective pasts (or rather, as objective as one can), without resorting to defaitism or blind patriotism, the world would be a much better place. NO SINGLE NATION on our little planet is innocent, in any sense of the word. No single nation has the moral high ground. As soon as we accept that, and start looking at conflicts and issues in a pragmatic manner, the world will become a better place.

[dmakatra 1]

I just want to applaude Xawery. Very well thought-out posts and beautifully written. If only I could write like that I'd be active as well. But now I'm mostly reading and not putting my nose in.

[Bernadotte 0]

Incidentally, I would like to express my admiration for you Nemesis6, as strange as it may sound. I may not agree with you, I may find your reasoning faulty, but I cannot help admiring the tenacity with which you persist in defending your viewpoints.

I agree and I've also tried to encourage the tenacity of Nemesis6:

I sincerely hope you don't post anything racist or make other comments that might get you banned from this forum.  You see, I feel it's very important to expose fanatical mindsets like yours so that outsiders can more easily see for themselves what the Palestinian people have had to endure for well over 80 years.

Unfortunately, he was not quite convinced of my sincerety:

I know there's nothing you'd like to see more than me getting banned.

Let's be honest, Nemesis6!!  We're both here for the same reason - that is, to get away from all those other boring discussion sites where everyone already agrees with our respective opinions.

[mp_phonix 0]

And as far as I know, only specific units are being sward [i hope u understand what I mean] on the Mesada. Probably SF units {we will not fall into enemy hands, but kill ourselve , smt like that}.

Israel bombed the parking lot - it is unfortunate & stupid, but u can't expect us to stop our actions because incidents like that. Israel probably had a reason, I don't think they dilebertely killed those civillians.its not like :

Pilot 1: Damn those Hizballah basterds, lats wipe those nice civillians unloading Vegtebals

Pilot 2: I'm with ya ! Missels away !

Just smt I saw on the news, /Hizballah used a Rocket tha reached Hedara [wich is about 20-30km southern to Haifa].

Nassralla thretend to bomb Tel-Aviv if Beirut will be bombed again [yeah like who asks Hizballah]. Israel replayed that it will destroy Lebanons infestructure ----------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&gt

;

;:

It hasn't been destroyed yet. Havn't you wonder how those terrorist move around ? yeas probably mounting Katyusha launchers on Camels and move in the mounatins.

Qana II. Ever wondered how the reportes got there ? or any other place where airstrikes on civillians were reported ?probably with camels through the mountains.

How the rescures got there ? probably with camels too.

News crews ? probably with camels too !

I mean, the whole roads were bombed, as you all claim and "The civillians can't escape".

If the news crews & rescures were able to arrive, the civillians can go out to. Hmmm . .I begin to wonder  

And something else, Lebanon now pays for letting Hizballah rule the southern border. They did't give a shit, now they are paying the price. If the Lebanonis ppl are so "Anti Hizballah" they can kill them all, ever heared about Revolution ?, or, probably most of the support them.

And why Israel doing airstrikes more then ground ? because I'll tell you what will happend : We go back 7 years ago and capture the southeren part, Hizballah has another reason to start a war "Those Israeli-Zionist-Jew basterd are taking our land ! bahhh !", pull off another trick like the one that started the war, we will take the whole fucken country, the stay there for 3 years, the pull back to southern part again, stay there for another 10 years, then pull back from Lebanon, Hizballah will wait 6 years and pull of that trick again.

U just don't understand that they will always find a reason to fight ?

Look at the phalastinians, we gave back Gaza, and they continue to fight from there. I can understand the fighting on the West bank, but y from Gaza ? we gave them back. They pull of an attack like month ago, we enter again, then they will fight for another year in claming "we are rebvenging for the invasion to the Gaza strip- bla bla bla bla".

You saying we always acting like victims. Who started the situation in the north ? who ? just tell me who ? we ? if u say we, the u are just arrogent. Hizballah had no reason to fight. We gave back southeren Lebanon, and those Sheeba farms are Syrian, as the UN stated. They just darn terrorist that can't find something else then doing what they do. They have nothing to Liberat any more.

What ? helping Phalastinans ? ok, u bomb us, don't complain we are bombing back --->>>> it's like you walking in the street, see a guy like Shwartzneger and punch him in the face for no reason, and u look like danny de-Vito, and when Shwartzneger Kicks your ass back u go cry to the police [uN].

And here are your next replys from users:

Barandotte : "you are full of shit, prove it" & "your a sycho acting like a little kid".

[Bernadotte 0]

Barandotte : "you are full of shit, prove it" & "your a sycho acting like a little kid".

You're beta-testing VISTA's new speech recognition software, aren't you?  

[mp_phonix 0]

Barandotte : "you are full of shit, prove it" & "your a sycho acting like a little kid".

You're beta-testing VISTA's new speech recognition software, aren't you?  

Funny. really, mean it. Saw it  

so have u anything to say about that post ?

[Stealth3 0]

Quote[/b] ]We gave back southeren Lebanon, and those Sheeba farms are Syrian, as the UN stated. They just darn terrorist that can't find something else then doing what they do. They have nothing to Liberat any more.

Well if those Sheeba farms are Syrian why don't you give them back to Syria? Oh thats right, they didn't start a war for them....

If you say Israel is soooooooo inoccent, why didn't they provide maps with mines that they placed in Lebanon?

Why do they have Lebanese in jails without convictions?

Why do you claim you are not involved in Gaza anymore, yet you pretty much control it by air, and with checkpoints, and skirmishes? Why can't Gaza have its own airspace?

And why do they ignore so many UN resolutions?

http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages....ons.htm

[mp_phonix 0]

Gaza had it own airspace, until they started the second Intifada {2000},[which btw, one of the reason that they started it was because they thought Israel is weak becasue we retreated from Lebanon. Oh my . .they were wrong].

Quote[/b] ]

Well if those Sheeba farms are Syrian why don't you give them back to Syria?

Cuz they didn't ask them back ? or claimed them ?

Quote[/b] ]

Why do they have Lebanese in jails without convictions?

What Lebanonis ? give an example.

Samir kuntar ? the one that murder a whole family ? I think it's pretty clear why he is in jail.

[Stealth3 0]

Well I don't have an example but I'm sure out of 1000+ prisoners, not everybody is a murderer. I bet 50% never had a trial or were convicted.

Quote[/b] ]Cuz they didn't ask them back ? or claimed them ?

And why is that? Ever wondered that Syria might not believe the farms are their territoritory.

But, what about the mine maps. What about the water problem where Israel threatened war if Lebanon uses more water from the river?

[Bernadotte 0]

so have u anything to say about that post ?

Two things...

Pilot 1: Damn those Hizballah basterds, lats wipe those nice civillians unloading Vegtebals

Pilot 2: I'm with ya ! Missels away !

And perhaps...

Farmworker 1:  Has anyone seen the boss?  

Farmworker 2:  Yes, he's standing over there about 500 meters away.

Farmworker 1:  Really?  I wonder what he's doing way over there.

[bOOM!!]

It's tragic, but they really couldn't be taking a more obvious risk than by loading open trucks in the Bekaa valley near the Syrian border.  Of all the recent war accidents, I actually find this one among the least troubling.

And why Israel doing airstrikes more then ground ? because I'll tell you what will happend : We go back 7 years ago

Go back 24 years to when Israel stopped it's advance on Beirut.  There were 2 main reasons:  (1) Sabra/Shatila massacre and (2) high rate of IDF casualties.  Without a civil war there's little chance of another Sabra/Shatila.  So the main concern is IDF casualties, which they are trying to minimise by using more air strikes.

Politically, it's much much easier for the Israeli PM to face an angry UN than a grieving Israeli mother.

[Garcia 0]

It's funny how Bernadotte, a typical guy that isn't anti-Israel, he just disagrees with the government's decisions, has started criticizing the very traditions and culture of Israel. Could it be that he has a deeper grudge...?

This little incident reminds me of that one with CsonkaPityu, a typical guy just against Israel's actions, not antisemitic in any way. Well other than randomly posting Jew-jokes and then... what happened then? Oh yeah, Bernadotte defended his actions.

Pattern?

Well, don't pro-israel people just love to claim that the muslims are so active terrorists because of their culture and religion? Do you actually say that you never have posted a comment where you blame islam and/or the muslim culture for terrorism?

Quote[/b] ]I just want to applaude Xawery. Very well thought-out posts and beautifully written.

Indeed

Quote[/b] ]What, there were other victims than Jews?? Yes indeed, though many people seem to forget it. Poles, Serbs, Roma, Sinti, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians...

I guess the thing is that the jews have used WWII so much, while the other groups of people haven't really used WWII any. Actually, I can't remember, at this moment, any incident where any other group of people, else than the jews, have "whined" about WWII and what they have been through. However, just last week the israeli ambassador here was on it again because of a drawing in a newspaper (it showed the Israeli prime minister as Amon Götz, with the rifle in his hands and dead palestinians/muslims instead of jews). People meant the muslims overreacted because of the Muhammed-drawings, though I can tell you, groups supporting Israel/Israelis here have reacted much more than muslims here did about the muhammed-drawings...

Quote[/b] ]Hell, even the Germans see themselves as victims ("Wir haben es nicht gewusst!").

A big factor (at least accoring to many people) to WWII was indeed Germanys feeling of being a victim after WWI. All nations do feel they are victims, though some use it more than others.

Quote[/b] ]Israel bombed the parking lot - it is unfortunate & stupid, but u can't expect us to stop our actions because incidents like that. Israel probably had a reason, I don't think they dilebertely killed those civillians.

No, but you can expect Israel to stop their actions because of all the incidents like this. And even though Israel had their reasons, it certainly doesn't seem like their reasons was good. Though I'll admit, since I've just gotten home, and have been away for the last 12-13 hours, the only information I've got, is the one posted here. And it certainly isn't the best place to get unbiased news

Quote[/b] ]Qana II. Ever wondered how the reportes got there ? or any other place where airstrikes on civillians were reported ?probably with camels through the mountains.

I won't claim to know how the reporters move around in Israel, but have you ever heard about one of these nice, stunningly new inventions?

1: This machine with blades on top of it, spinning around, and it actually flies (can you belive that? ). I think it's called "Helicopter"...

2: I do think you have heard about cars, but have you heard about cars with 4-wheel drive? It's this nice thing were all 4 wheels are "powered" by the engine, and moves the vehicle forward, so it's not only moving with the 2 front/back wheels...it makes it possible for this car to actually drive outside roads!!!!!

Quote[/b] ]If the news crews & rescures were able to arrive, the civillians can go out to.

Sorry to break your heart, but I doubt most Lebaneses got neither a helicopter, nor a 4-wheel-drived car And if they had, it would probably have been smased by IDF before they could use it to get out.

Quote[/b] ]And why Israel doing airstrikes more then ground ? because I'll tell you what will happend : We go back 7 years ago and capture the southeren part, Hizballah has another reason to start a war "Those Israeli-Zionist-Jew basterd are taking our land ! bahhh !", pull off another trick like the one that started the war, we will take the whole fucken country, the stay there for 3 years, the pull back to southern part again, stay there for another 10 years, then pull back from Lebanon, Hizballah will wait 6 years and pull of that trick again.

Hmm, so I've just been imagining that it's been something quite similar to war down there? So you're telling me you Israeli guys and Lebanese guys are actually just having a little BBQ, and some people die in the prosses? Or is it something down there that actually is quite war-like?

Just face it, Israel is already in a war. If they keep on striking with artillery/airstrikes, it'll probably not get any better.

Quote[/b] ]Look at the phalastinians, we gave back Gaza, and they continue to fight from there. I can understand the fighting on the West bank, but y from Gaza ? we gave them back. They pull of an attack like month ago, we enter again, then they will fight for another year in claming "we are rebvenging for the invasion to the Gaza strip- bla bla bla bla".

Aaaah, so you're telling me that, if, let's say Iran, invaded Israel, occupied the country, and then moved out of half of the country, you guys would actually sit down thinking "Oh fuck those bastards, also known as our countrymen. We've got our land back, let them do the fighing for their own!"?

Palestinians in Gaza mean the west bank is also their terrotory (which it is), so therefor, even though their home is "free", their, land is still occupied, and therefor they have to keep fighting to get the rest of their land free...

[deanosbeano 0]

i believe the term is Administrative Detention.

there are belivieved to be 1000`s held under this term.

more so people from gaza than lebanon,but soon that will change,with the building of a new temporary prison.

new "prsion"

[mp_phonix 0]

Helicopters ? Scratch that jumbo, It flys it get shot down.

4 wheel drive ? if it has 4 wheel drive it looks big, probably a jeep, but still it needs road to drive, if a jeep can go there probably a truck. and btw after Israel annonced 48 hour airial cease fire they all began to fled, all the civics. nad how that happened ? the roads were magicly rebuilt ?

[Garcia 0]

Seeing that IDF have killed people who tried to flee, and seeing that they've smashed the biggest and most used roads out, have it ever occured to you that a big reason for people to not flee was because it would be too dangerous to flee on the roads that was still left when Israel was sending bombs and shells here and there and everywhere?

And to put it like this...are you really that naive that you think all the civilians fleeing now, wouldn't have fled earlier if they had the chance? If they didn't want to flee earlier, why would they flee now? Also, the 48 hour cease fire made it possible for organizations to get help in (I haven't read any reports about this, but I expect they did), and by reciving help, some people may have gotten what they needed to get out...Some people may have had shortage of i.e water, and then they recived it now, so therefor they would be able to get out. There's probably many reasons for why people haven't been able to get out earlier, but if you claim they didn't want to get out earier, but suddenly feel like it now...then

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

And why Israel doing airstrikes more then ground ? because I'll tell you what will happend : We go back 7 years ago

Go back 24 years to when Israel stopped it's advance on Beirut.  There were 2 main reasons:  (1) Sabra/Shatila massacre and (2) high rate of IDF casualties.  Without a civil war there's little chance of another Sabra/Shatila.  So the main concern is IDF casualties, which they are trying to minimise by using more air strikes.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... the guys running the IDF ARE COWARDS!!! They just don't have the balls to do the job right, thinking that air-striking anything will solve anything.

mp_phoenix, do you really believe that even if Israel bombs the shit out of Lebanon, in a mostly-exclusive aerial campaign, that the rockets are truly going to stop falling on Israel? Don't you think Hizbollah knew exactly what they were getting into when they started firing rockets in the first place? The IDF knows that the only way to resecure Israel is via ground troops, but they're too cowardly to do it, because they haven't got the stomach to fill caskets with their own to get the job done.

I'm fully supportive of the french point of view concerning the negotiations related to the establishment of an international peace-keeping force - any international peace-keeping force should only move in when any cease-fire has proven itself worthy of being taken serious. No other country should have to fill caskets of their own for this war that seems to be doomed to exist forever...

[xawery 0]

Now, the reason why I expressed my admiration for Nemesis6 and not for you mp_phonix wasn't the lack of tenacity on your part. It is because he can spell, and you, well, can't. Or just don't. Good god man, you even spelled your nickname incorrectly when registering! I'm not saying this to pick on you. But please, understand that the more illegible your posts are, the more difficult it becomes to actually read them. For all I know, you may be making some very valid points, but the lack of proper punctuation, horrible spelling & grammar turn your posts into a very unpleasant experience. Perhaps you should consider writing your posts in Word first, then spell-checking them before actually posting. Again, I would like to stress that I am not making fun of your writing style. I am not being arrogant nor condescending. It's just that proper writing skills are essential for a good discussion. Even the board rules mention that.

All this notwithstanding, I will attempt to reply to your post.

Quote[/b] ]Israel bombed the parking lot - it is unfortunate & stupid, but u can't expect us to stop our actions because incidents like that. Israel probably had a reason, I don't think they dilebertely killed those civillians.its not like :

Pilot 1: Damn those Hizballah basterds, lats wipe those nice civillians unloading Vegtebals

Pilot 2: I'm with ya ! Missels away !

But it makes one wonder, doesn't it? You say that "Israel probably had a reason", but if they refuse to disclose it and admit that it was an accident, it starts getting suspicious, doesn't it? The UN post was an accident. Qana I + II were an accident. Now this parking lot is an accident as well. Either the ID/AF are completely incompetent, or they have no regard for civilian lives, or they are doing this on purpose and try to cover it up.

Quote[/b] ]

Just smt I saw on the news, /Hizballah used a Rocket tha reached Hedara [wich is about 20-30km southern to Haifa].

Nassralla thretend to bomb Tel-Aviv if Beirut will be bombed again [yeah like who asks Hizballah]. Israel replayed that it will destroy Lebanons infestructure ----------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&gt

;

;

;:

It hasn't been destroyed yet. Havn't you wonder how those terrorist move around ? yeas probably mounting Katyusha launchers on Camels and move in the mounatins.

Qana II. Ever wondered how the reportes got there ? or any other place where airstrikes on civillians were reported ?probably with camels through the mountains.

How the rescures got there ? probably with camels too.

News crews ? probably with camels too !

I mean, the whole roads were bombed, as you all claim and "The civillians can't escape".

If the news crews & rescures were able to arrive, the civillians can go out to. Hmmm . .I begin to wonder

I don't know about that. Don't you think that reporters and rescue workers have better vehicles at their disposal? After all, they're operating in a war zone, and are prepared for this kind of situations. So yeah, while a 4x4 Dodge might get you there eventually, I doubt that ordinary civilians with ordinary cars made for paved roads will be able to get out. Besides, how many people actually own a vehicle there? AFAIK, the people in that region are quite poor, so they are unlikely to own a car, let alone an off-road beast.

Quote[/b] ]And something else, Lebanon now pays for letting Hizballah rule the southern border. They did't give a shit, now they are paying the price. If the Lebanonis ppl are so "Anti Hizballah" they can kill them all, ever heared about Revolution ?, or, probably most of the support them.

Let's see: the Lebanese government used to be next to powerless, given Syria's influence (which, as you know, supports Hezbollah). But that's not important: what you are saying is that civilians should pay the price for 'letting' Hezbollah rule the South. W. T. F.? How fucking self-righteous can you get? You think you have the right to 'make the civilians pay' for the fact that a well-organised, well-financed and certainly well-armed militia is occupying the southern region because it borders on Israel?? You seem to be thinking that the Lebanese civilians are some kind of homogeneous entity, acting in unison. Do you have any idea how hard it is to oppose a well-armed entity, especially if it supporting the community? Jesus C. mate, consult your common sense before making such wild claims.

Quote[/b] ]You saying we always acting like victims. Who started the situation in the north ? who ? just tell me who ? we ? if u say we, the u are just arrogent. Hizballah had no reason to fight. We gave back southeren Lebanon, and those Sheeba farms are Syrian, as the UN stated. They just darn terrorist that can't find something else then doing what they do. They have nothing to Liberat any more.

Hezbollah had all the reasons to kidnap those soldiers; what is more, they had announced it a long time before. Isreal had agreed upon a prisoners' exchange, but backed out at the last moment. Hezbollah swore to kidnap more soldiers so as to force Isreal back into negotiations. After years of trying, they finally succeeded. However, they got more than they bargained for - instead of negotiating the release of the prisoners, the Isreali government decided to bomb a country. Wow. Good thinking there. This certainly saved the soldiers' lives.

What's the final analysis? Idiots reside on both sides. Taunting Israel just as it was getting rather testy about the whole Gaza kidnapping is idiotic. Reacting to a kidnapping as if it were a full scale invasion of your country is idiotic as well. What follows, is the well-known downward spiral... Fuelled by idiots.

And what does the rest of the world do? Just a moment please, we'll get right back to you...

[mp_phonix 0]

I can express my self correctly.

First of all, I did NOT mis-spelld my nick name ! ! !

It is not supposed to be phoenix but phonix as it is ! I was not reffering to that bird from Harry Potter !

I have quait a good english, but i'm tayping fast and sometimes I don't pay attention to grammer & spelling [and I don't know how to spell some of the words.]

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Reacting to a kidnapping as if it were a full scale invasion of your country is idiotic as well

It is true, but at least they will think twice before thinking about pulling of this trick. Again, check the Shwartzneger metafor, just pretend the the Dany de-Vito meets Shwartzneger again in the next day. Will he punch him again ?

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]I can express my self correctly.

First of all, I did NOT mis-spelld my nick name ! ! !

It is not supposed to be phoenix but phonix as it is ! I was not reffering to that bird from Harry Potter !

Fair enough, although I have no idea what a phonix is supposed to be. Incidentally, the phoenix is not "that bird from Harry Potter", but a mythological being from Egypt, which has been adopted by Christians as a symbol of resurrection.

Quote[/b] ]It is true, but at least they will think twice before thinking about pulling of this trick. Again, check the Shwartzneger metafor, just pretend the the Dany de-Vito meets Shwartzneger again in the next day. Will he punch him again ?

I would like to present a different analogy, one which has already been put forward by another member of these forums whose name I sadly do not recollect (it was either Garcia or Deanosbeano I believe).

There is this small, nasty fellow who has been beaten up and cheated by a big, muscular fellow. Now, the small chap kicks the bigger one in the bollocks. The muscular fellow reacts by beating the small fellow's mother senseless. As a result, the small fellow remain unscathed, but receives support from his kin. Together, they kick the big chap's shin.

In other words, Israel's actions are not harming Hezbollah but the Lebanese population. The only effect of these actions is that Hezbollah can count on more support now...

Let's forget all moral issues for the moment, and look pragmatically at the effect of Israel's recent military operations in Lebanon. Are they truly hurting Hezbollah? No. Who are they hurting? The civilians. What are the consequences? The Lebanese government looks weak, and the civilians are more likely to support Hezbollah. After all, it is the only organisation actively 'defending Lebanon'.

Hezbollah are fuckheads who want to turn Lebanon into a theocratic state a la Iran. They deserve no sympathy. However, Israel's reaction is counterproductive. Simply on practical grounds, one should seriously doubt the sensibility of Israel's reaction to the kidnappings.

In other words,