The Middle East part 2

[Donnervogel 0]

BUZZARD @ July 23 2006,02:04)]

On top of that the Lebanese army can't even take action if they wanted to go on a suicide run as Syria didn't even allow any governmental decission to take action.

Well if the president already stated that the lebanese army will fight the IDF if it invades Lebanon (saw it on CNN from an interview of the president), then the lebanese army will be

yeah I am aware of that. As it's what I'm talking about. What you quoted was referred to the past 5 or 6 years of Syrian control over lebanon and the inability of the lebanese army/government to disarm Hesbollah. I should have written "couldn't" instead of "can't" so that might lead to an misunderstanding.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Anyone that`s thinking about warcrimes should not forget that Nasralla would be the first man that must be brought to a court. He had declared war on Israel, and since than his troops only have targeted civilians with theire rockets.

And i don`t think the geneva convention allows to hide behind civillians and fire rockets out of homes of civillians so they will be targeted.

I´d bet that after all this, only Israely Generals will be attacked because of the civillian losses.

[turms 0]

Talking about warcrimes: The UN's Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.

Quote[/b] ]A visibly moved Mr Egeland expressed shock that "block after block" of buildings had been levelled.

He said the "disproportionate response" by Israel was a "violation of international humanitarian law".

He appealed for both sides to halt attacks and said UN supplies of humanitarian aid would begin to arrive in the next few days.

"But we need safe access," he said. "So far Israel is not giving us access."

[Bernadotte 0]

Anyone that`s thinking about warcrimes should not forget that Nasralla would be the first man that must be brought to a court. He had declared war on Israel, and since than his troops only have targeted civilians with theire rockets.

And i don`t think the geneva convention allows to hide behind civillians and fire rockets out of homes of civillians so they will be targeted.

Um...  Something tells me that Nasrallah has not signed the Geneva Conventions.  

Israel has.

[mp_phonix 0]

Um...  Something tells me that Nasrallah has not signed the Geneva Conventions.  

Israel has.

Ummmm so that makes it ok ?

just answear with yes or no Bernadotte

[Garcia 0]

Um...  Something tells me that Nasrallah has not signed the Geneva Conventions.  

Israel has.

Ummmm so that makes it ok ?

just answear with yes or no Bernadotte

The point is that Hizbollah can't break something they've never agreed to...It's like braking a deal you've never done...

And why do you always whine about people here meaning Hizbollah is acting ok? You seem to have a serious problem understanding what people mean. If somebody writes something just to point it out, you're like "oh oh oh!!111 omfg you saying Hizbollah is right?!!1?"

[Bernadotte 0]

Um...  Something tells me that Nasrallah has not signed the Geneva Conventions.  

Israel has.

Ummmm so that makes it ok ?

just answear with yes or no Bernadotte

...Makes what ok??  

Obviously, Hizbollah's acts of terrorism are not ok whether they'd signed the Geneva Conventions or not.

So I assume you are asking about Israel.

NO.  It is not ok for Israel's attacks to endanger civilians... obviously.

And before you ask, YES, Israel has the right to defend its own civilians, but not at the expense of Lebanon's civilians.

Do you understand this, mp_phonix?  ...Just answer yes or no!!  

[mp_phonix 0]

yes

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Syria seems to be wanting to get into the act as well if the IDF closes in on its borders...

Well, if after Syria comes Iran, the IDF will have to rumble through Iraq... now that would be...

[mattxr 9]

lmao they are going to invade the hole middle east..

Im sure the middle east is a suicide heaven.. noticed people in the middle east must be doing something wrong becuase thats where all the suicide bombers come from.. hmm wonder why -- looks towards religion - oh yea the koran [allah] ...

..

[martinovic 0]

lmao they are going to invade the hole middle east..

Im sure the middle east is a suicide heaven.. noticed people in the middle east must be doing something wrong becuase thats where all the suicide bombers come from.. hmm wonder why -- looks towards religion - oh yea the koran [allah] ...

..

Well, anyways, if we bring up religion again... as a christian i think what terrorists are doing is wrong, but why they are doing it is awsome.

It's kind of like when a father gets angry at one of his sons for not following orders and then another son kills the former one to appease his father... doesn't work.

And never forget that the fascistic ideology of zionism is what's the fuel for violence in the middle-east.

Terror is mostly a reaction to israeli abuse of the arab population.

Bah! Before this whole mess in Lebanon started i used to support Israel whole-heartedly... now i've researched the history behind what exactly is going on in that region and changed my mind funny that.

Seriously... "'unser volk braucht raum" could be the motto of Israel.

[mattxr 9]

1.. Well, anyways, if we bring up religion again... as a christian i think what terrorists are doing is wrong, but why they are doing it is awsome.

2.. now i've researched the history behind what exactly is going on in that region and changed my mind funny that.

Well your first point just doesnt make sence or theres something wrong with u..

second point i agree same here...

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

the fascistic ideology of zionism

I don't want to drag this offtopic but considering history it's a bit awkward that you'd call anything the israelis do "fascistic"...

[EiZei 0]

You'd think religion pretty much excludes fascism, yes, this also applies to other shitty neologism such as islamofascism.

[tak 0]

[martinovic 0]

BUZZARD @ July 24 2006,15:54)]

the fascistic ideology of zionism

I don't want to drag this offtopic but considering history it's a bit awkward that you'd call anything the israelis do "fascistic"...

Well, lets see.

Quote[/b] ]Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

"preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood", for germans this was WW1, for israelis this is WW2.

"compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity," germans wanted a purely german Germany. Israelis want a jewish Israel, one of the reasons why the one state solution isn't advocated by israelis is that then the arabs would be the majority in Israel, this is obvious racism.

"abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." We all know the germans did bad stuff back then. (not that i have anything against germans now.) I would link to reports about israeli soldiers killing various innocents, but i would be linking to graphic images of death. Every israeli is required to join the military, btw.

The suppression of the palestinians began before terror. Terror is a response. Hamas resembles the french resistance a bit. It's just that the germans weren't dumb enough to move their citizens into france.

Zionism is a bit ess violent, but maybe they just hide it better. I mean noone knew about the concentration camps either until they were discovered.

Quote[/b] ]Well your first point just doesnt make sence or theres something wrong with u..

second point i agree same here...

What i'm trying to say is that the palestinian resistance is doing the wrong things for the right reasons. They are doing bad stuff, i won't debate that, but their motives aren't always as sinister as they are made out to be imho.

[mp_phonix 0]

Before the enter the link watch your conditions Because of the site contains heavy grotesque pics.

I don't know what is right or wrong bout Middle East prob though it's weird to see those kids are killed just like that..

Trying to show us what a killed civi looks like ?

I can show you photos of what is left from people after sucide bombings here in israel.

[Bernadotte 0]

looks towards religion - oh yea the koran [allah]

Oh really??  So, if it wasn't for the Koran the Palestinian people would have been perfectly satisfied with being driven from their property, spending decades stateless, under brutal occupation in refugee camps??  Yeah sure!!  Why try to understand the real source of the problem when it's just so much easier to blame their anger on the Koran?

And never forget that the fascistic ideology of zionism is what's the fuel for violence in the middle-east.

Zionism, as founded by Herzl, had reasonably noble aims for that time.  Herzl's Zion (Promised Land) would be brought about by gathering all the best efforts and ideals of every race and nation to become the product of the benevolent efforts of all members of the human family.

Quote[/b] ]Herzl envisioned a Jewish state that was devoid of most aspects of Jewish culture. He did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, or even speaking Hebrew. ...

Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. The one Arab character in [Herzl's book] Altneuland, Reshid Bey, is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Palestine and sees no cause for conflict.

Some of the earliest Zionists to reach Palestine even wore traditional Arab dress.

Herzl died in 1906.  Too bad he didn't live long enough to prevent his dream from being hijacked by religious fanatics and extremists.

Seriously... "'unser volk braucht raum" could be the motto of Israel.

True.  Unfortunately, they "braucht raum" that already belonged to other people.

[igor drukov 0]

I hope I'm not the only one on these forums to find martinovic's previous post an unacceptable insult to reason and knowledge, to the Jews and their ordeal throughout history, and to the French resistants, whose humanist values - for most - had nothing to do with Hamas' proselytising ways, and whose fight wasn't to annihilate a democracy acknowledged by the U.N.

[martinovic 0]

I hope I'm not the only one on these forums to find martinovic's previous post an unacceptable insult to reason and knowledge, to the Jews and their ordeal throughout history, and to the French resistants, whose humanist values - for most - had nothing to do with Hamas' proselytising  ways, and whose fight wasn't to annihilate a democracy acknowledged by the U.N.

Well, i just drew a parallel between two resistance movements, i'll choose the slavic resistance movements then. I am sorry if i insulted the french resistance.

I don't think i insulted these jews tough:

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html

Quote[/b] ]I hope I'm not the only one on these forums to find martinovic's previous post an unacceptable insult to reason and knowledge

Like i said earlier, i used to support Israel until recently... but now i look up facts and the history behind all of this. I try to research as much as the internet grants it. I do not see the innocence of Israel.

Here, a simple site: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

One more thing. According to newest reports by a lebanese doctor who treated civilians the IDF used white phosphorus weapons, the burns are there. If that's true and Israel did target civilians with such weapons, Hezbollah presence or no Hezbollah presence, then it's a war crime.

[billybob2002 0]

Zionism, as founded by Herzl, had reasonably noble aims for that time.  Herzl's Zion (Promised Land) would be brought about by gathering all the best efforts and ideals of every race and nation to become the product of the benevolent efforts of all members of the human family.

Some of the earliest Zionists to reach Palestine even wore traditional Arab dress.

According to Altneuland and Der Judenstaat, both written by Herzl, "Palestine" (he uses the term "Jewish State" in Der Judenstaat) is a socialist-type (not full socialism) Jewish State, with Arabs living in it with full rights, based on western European society. However, he could not of known that Arab nationalism was going to pickup steam a decade after his death. Additionally, he could not known the backlash against Zionism by the Arabs in the 1920s.

The fact is that he wanted a Jewish state and I think the total population of Palestine during his era was low enough that alot of Jewish immigration would make the Jews the dominate group in the area. He wanted one state, a Jewish state with Arabs there due to the fact they already live there (according to Altneuland), and not two states.

Der Judenstaat: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/herzl2.html

@martinovic:

It depends on which Palestinian group you are talking about because some want a separate state for Palestinians (i.e. PLO, allegedly) and others want Israel destroyed (i.e. Hamas according to their charter).

[Bernadotte 0]

However, he could not of known that Arab nationalism was going to pickup steam a decade after his death.

Not unless he was able to predict the promises of statehood made by Britain during WWI in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence if the regions Arabs helped them defeat the Ottoman Empire.

Additionally, he could not known the backlash against Zionism by the Arabs in the 1920s.

Specifically the backlash to:

- The secret Sykes-Picot Agreement that carved up the region between Britain and France in direct contradiction to what was promised by the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

- The Balfour Declaration which also went against the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

- Zionist attempts to develop an economy in which Arabs were largely redundant, such as the "Hebrew labor" movement that campaigned against the employment of Arabs.

- Lands purchased in Palestine by the Jewish Agency and leased under the conditions that they be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews.

I also doubt that Herzl could have predicted that Zionism would evolve into any of that.

The fact is that he wanted a Jewish state and I think the total population of Palestine during his era was low enough that alot of Jewish immigration would make the Jews the dominate group in the area.

Alot??  How much is "alot"?  Between 1922 and 1945 the Muslim population of Palestine grew by 80% while the Jewish population grew by 560%.  However in 1945, Muslims in Palestine still outnumbered Jews by 2 to 1.

[Garcia 0]

LOL

[billybob2002 0]

Alot??  How much is "alot"?  Between 1922 and 1945 the Muslim population of Palestine grew by 80% while the Jewish population grew by 560%.  However in 1945, Muslims in Palestine still outnumbered Jews by 2 to 1.

If you read Der Judenstaat, the Jews in Palestine would become the majority through mass immigration of European Jews after Palestine was given to them. You do the math.

Specifically the backlash to:

- The secret Sykes-Picot Agreement that carved up the region between Britain and France in direct contradiction to what was promised by the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

- The Balfour Declaration which also went against the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

The British, also, came back in the White Paper of June 1922 and said that Palestine wasn't apart of the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

The British, also, went against the mandate and limited the Jewish Agency from buying anymore land. As well, they limited Jewish immigration in 1931.

-Zionist attempts to develop an economy in which Arabs were largely redundant, such as the "Hebrew labor" movement that campaigned against the employment of Arabs.

- Lands purchased in Palestine by the Jewish Agency and leased under the conditions that they be worked only by Jewish labour and that the lease should not be held by non-Jews.

It is suppose to be a Jewish state. You got to prop up the new Jewish immigrants and other Jews, right? The Jewish Agency came about after the British said there would be home for Jews in Palestine and they, the Agency, legally bought the land. You can't create a Jewish state in the future where Jews don't have nothing.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

lmao they are going to invade the hole middle east..

[allah] ...

..

Who, the US?