The Middle East part 2

[xawery 0]

I was thinking about showing you one I saw that showed that 60% of all Palestinians support terrorism, but then I saw this report - 87% of all Palestinians support terrorism. And this is from Palestine-info.com, so don't you dare pull the "it's from a extremist Zionist site" crap on me here.

Avon, your remarks left me rather speechless. Your suggestions of using massive airstrikes fall squarly into the category "if at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer". It's funny how right-wingers claim to be realists, as opposed to the weak-willed, naive left-wingers. However, when they are faced with the failure of their heavy-handed policies, their only response is: "we need to strike harder". So who is naive? I am no pacificist and I believe that armed conflict is sometimes the only solution, but if it's clear that a show of force is not generating results one must consider other options. I admit, peaceful negations aren't as spectacular and 'decisive' as airstrikes on busy streets and markets, so I can see where you're coming from...

With regard to the 87% figure Nemesis mentioned... Quicksand beat me to it, but if you actually take a look at the details you will see that the survey has been held amongst the amazing amount of 327 people. In a single town. Golly, isn't that representative! Furthermore, a search on palestine-info.com yields no results.

On a last note: I wouldn't exactly call freerepublic.com an unbiased source. Check their mission statement...

[FSPilot 0]

How about you stop flamebaiting, pal?  Perhaps you should try discussing what people here are posting instead of taking issue with what (you claim) they are not saying.

I've made my views on terrorism clear plenty of times in this and other threads.  Go find them!

Flamebaiting?  If you didn't have anything relevant to say you probably shouldn't of posted at all.

And no, no matter what you say they are, your views on terrorism are readilly apparent to me.  Frankly I don't even want to read what you've got to say on this subject.  As a matter of fact, I think I'll stop.

FSPilot, I don't think you will find anyone on this forum who condones the actions of terrorists. So don't be surprised that people do not write lengthy posts about how despicable the terrorists are. It's pretty much self-explanatory!

I'd agree that it is self-explanatory if I didn't think I'd find people on this forum who condone the actions of terrorists.

Terrorists are desperate lunatics, and the insanity of their actions is apparent. However, when a civilised, democratic country decides decides to employ methods which they know will result in civilian casualties, THAT'S when one should raise one's eyebrow.

What's the point of firing missiles at targets surrounded by civilians if

a) it is not going to deter any other terrorists;

b) it's going to damage Isreal's reputation?

Such retaliations are simply counter-productive. Killing civilians, as unintentional as it may be, will only push more moderate palestinians into the arms of extremists.

That's why I said I thought the blame was half and half.  Hizbullah shouldn't of started the fight, Israel shouldn't of finished it the way they did.  Besides, both of your points can be applied to Hizbullah just as readilly as they can the Israeli forces.  Half and half.

And I certainly don't think these terrorists are desperate.  I'm sure they could, and have in the past, find all sorts of support from other nations who share their political objectives.

Maybe it was a heat-of-the-moment decision, or an inexperienced commander, or just a bad call.  I just hope everybody can learn from what happened and that it won't happen again.  I think I'm done arguing this.  I've made my point and I think that most people (the ones that can produce any kind of argument anyway) agree with me.

[Nemesis6 0]

To the people in denial about the statistics I posted earlier, here's some more -

Quote[/b] ]Dr. Shikaki’s annual poll found 77 percent of all Palestinians support the double suicide bombing of two public buses in Beersheba (compared to 75 percent for a similar act at the Maxim restaurant in Haifa in October 2003, before the issuing of the ICJ’s opinion); 75 percent support the shelling of Israeli civilian settlements from Gaza; and 64 percent (up from 59 percent in October 2003) “believe armed confrontations have helped Palestinians achieve their national rights in ways that negotiations could not.â€29

From this site.

[deanosbeano 0]

there are some not so doomsville conclusions to the poll as well just to balance the books.

Quote[/b] ]Despite the pessimism and the high level of support for violence, the findings show an additional side to the Palestinian street, one that fully supports a mutual cessation of violence (85%) while a majority (64%) supports a return to the Hudna that prevailed few weeks ago. More importantly, an unprecedented majority of 59% now supports taking measures by the PA to prevent attacks on Israelis once the two sides reach an agreement on mutual cessation of violence. Despite the continued buildup of the separation wall, a majority of 64% still supports a solution based on a two-state solution, while only 12% support a one-state solution, and 21% support a solution that would restore all of historic Palestine to the Palestinians.

Poll is quite old anyway.poll in full

samples are very small , maybe 1300 people

[Nemesis6 0]

I think I've made my point here. If anything, the number of extremists and terror sympathizers has increased.

[EiZei 0]

samples are very small , maybe 1300 people

Huh? 1300 people is more than enough to with a population less than 4 million. Of course then there's the way the questions were posed and how the sample was picked but the sample size is quite sufficient.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]Huh? 1300 people is more than enough to with a population less than 4 million. Of course then there's the way the questions were posed and how the sample was picked but the sample size is quite sufficient.

how can 1300 people represent 4million? anyway its acually 1300ish people from 120 locations ,what it dosent say however if they actually polled,3000 people ,in 120 locations and , only represented the 1300 . polls mean nothing , i was merely posting the full context. besides theres another poll which states 99% of people polled think polling is a waste of time .

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Huh? 1300 people is more than enough to with a population less than 4 million. Of course then there's the way the questions were posed and how the sample was picked but the sample size is quite sufficient.

how can 1300 people represent 4million?

Calculate it yourself then:

http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

[deanosbeano 0]

i dont need to, i have made my mind up years ago, polls are worthless media banter. End of. i was merely representing the original poll in a better/different light, which by your own words that the 1300 people of 4million want to see peace ,you have strengthened that view, so no problem.but for me it all means 1300 people share this view and nothing more,

[Bernadotte 0]

I think I've made my point here. If anything, the number of extremists and terror sympathizers has increased.

Nemesis6, I have 2 questions for you:

(This time, I hope Avon will give you a chance to answer for yourself.)

1.  Do you distinguish between violent resistance and terrorism or is anyone who supports the use of violence on behalf of the Palestinian people a terrorist?

2.  What is you opinion of Lehi and many other Jewish militant organisations who used violence to found the state of Israel?

Quote[/b] ]"84,000 troops, who received no co-operation from the Jewish community, had proved

insufficient to maintain law and order in the face of a campaign of terrorism waged

by highly organised Jewish forces equipped with all the weapons of the modern

infantryman. Since the war 338 British subjects had been killed in Palestine, while the

military forces there had cost the British taxpayer Å100 million the declared intentions

of Jewish extremists showed that the loss of further British lives was inevitable. In

these circumstances His Majesty's Government decided to bring to an end their

Mandate and to prepare for the earliest possible withdrawal from Palestine of all

British forces."

Palestine: Termination of the Mandate

London, 15th May, 1948.

As you can see from their website they are still celebrating their acts of terrorism.  

Frankly I don't even want to read what you've got to say on this subject.  As a matter of fact, I think I'll stop.

Go on, I dare ya.  You couldn't ignore me if you tried.

[miles teg 1]

i dont need to, i have made my mind up years ago, polls are worthless media banter. End of. i was merely representing the original poll in a better/different light, which by your own words that the 1300 people of 4million want to see peace ,you have strengthened that view, so no problem.but for me it all means 1300 people share this view and nothing more,

No offense deanosbeano but you don't know much about how statistics are calculated. I used to study statistics as part of psychological research. 1,300 is actually an excellent sample size. However.... the question is not whether the sample size is adequate, but rather what methods were used to get that sample. Methods are the devil in statistics and sadly most reports rarely talk about what methods were used. If for example, they targetted mainly neighborhoods known to be strongholds of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, then of coarse their results would be skewed towards favoring terrorism. However if they took a random sample from major population centers all over the Palestinian territories, then indeed the polls may be highly accurate.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Nemesis6 0]

1. Do you distinguish between violent resistance and terrorism or is anyone who supports the use of violence on behalf of the Palestinian people a terrorist?

2. What is you opinion of Lehi and many other Jewish militant organisations who used violence to found the state of Israel?

1 - Violent resistance and terrorism... I don't really know to be honest. Anyone who supports violence on behalf of the Palestinians is not really supporting the Palestinians, I'll put it like that.

2 - What my opinion about the Lehi is... To be honest, I'm unsure. They drove drove out the British, which is good, and they revived the Hebrew language. That's my initial idea - They fought the British. But I'm aware they were involved in terrorism.

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]Palestinians launch raid from Gaza into Israel

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Palestinian militants launched on Sunday their first deadly raid into Israel from Gaza since an Israeli pullout last year, killing two Israelis in an assault on a military post in which several attackers also died.

A strong Israeli military response to the raid, claimed by the armed wing of the governing Hamas group and the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) as an "earthquake reaction" to recent air strikes that killed 14 Palestinian civilians, seemed likely.

Immediately after the incident, a small Israeli force crossed into Gaza to carry out searches.

"The attack targeted the Israeli military and according to the information we have so far, the Israelis killed were soldiers," a Hamas official said in Damascus.

"This was a very serious Hamas terrorist attack," Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in broadcast remarks.

"Israel sees the Palestinian Authority headed by Chairman Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) and the Palestinian government responsible for the incident, with everything that implies," he said.

Tunneling across the fenced frontier, militants fired rocket-propelled grenades and automatic weapons in a dawn operation against an army post near the Kerem Shalom border crossing.

An Israeli military source said seven gunmen infiltrated through a tunnel that militants had dug and attacked an armored personnel carrier.

In an ensuing gun battle, two Israelis were killed along with several of the attackers, an Israeli security source said. Israeli rescue workers at the scene said at least three militants were dead. The PRC said two gunmen were killed.

Israel Radio quoted medics as saying four people wounded in the incident were taken to hospital.

Witnesses said that in the aftermath of the gun battle, two Israeli tanks backed by a helicopter crossed into an empty field in the Gaza Strip at the scene of the attack. The army said it was a "limited entry" to search the area.

Army Radio reported that Israeli generals had convened to discuss a possible large-scale ground operation in response to the raid.

Full Article

And this just came in:

Quote[/b] ]Israeli soldier missing after Gaza attack: army

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - An Israeli soldier was missing on Sunday after Palestinian militants attacked a military post near the Gaza Strip, the army said.

Two Israeli soldiers were killed in the raid and "we have a soldier that is missing," an army spokesman said.

The spokesman said further details could not be released due to military censorship.

After the attack, in which several Palestinian gunmen were killed, a small Israeli force mounted a search operation in the southern Gaza Strip near the scene of the incident.

It was the first such cross-border raid by Palestinian militants since Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip last year.

[mp_phonix 0]

the missing soldier is kindhapped, I have it on the news here in Israel.

[Hornet85 0]

How the hel do they kidnap a soldier?

you never surender your arms befor you are dead and ofcorse you never give yourself to terrorists or any thing like that... POW ok but this isent a war any more...

[mp_phonix 0]

They dug a tunnel into Israel, came out, opend fire with RPG's and small arms, blow-up an APC, during the comotion they somehow kidnhaped one of them . .2 IDF soldiers dead

[Hornet85 0]

RPG is nasty shit

Hope the soldier will come back alive but that probebly will not hapen

[Balschoiw 0]

One side is using helicopters and tanks to kill with a lot of collateral damage, the other side is digging tunnels.

No difference for me.

[EiZei 0]

Sigh, at least they opted for something else than massacring civilians this time.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sigh, at least they opted for something else than massacring civilians this time.

please elaborate , that could be a quote about either side.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sigh, at least they opted for something else than massacring civilians this time.

please elaborate , that could be a quote about either side.

Considering IDF did not opt for anything this time i'd say it's not that hard to figure out.

[Badgerboy 0]

Any particular reason why Israel seems more horrified by one of its soldiers being kidnapped than when a group of its civilians gets blown to pieces?

The soldiers know the risk, its their job. The poor civies on the other hand are just going about their business.

Surely the militia forces tageting the Israeli armed forces is better than suicide bombers on buses? They have been calling for a 'fair fight' for years now. Seems the militia attack was well planned and executed, and agains't a legitimate military target.

[Nemesis6 0]

Seems the militia attack was well planned and executed, and agains't a legitimate military target.

So, your point being... Allah'u Akbar?

Israel hasn't been calling for a "fair fight", Israel has been calling for peace.

[mp_phonix 0]

You know that's a stupd ass question badger boy. It's not like for example americans kindhaped russian soldier for intellegence, A Terrorist organization kindhaped a soldier for perpurse of "ransom". Israel is "Horrified" because it was an attack on Israeli soil and not on "Israeli outpost inside Gaza strip", we left gaza for them and they pull of this trick. What you think ? after we will get back the soldier they kindnahped Israel is going to enter Gaza strip with tanks, aircraft & infantry. We will not le this one "slide".

[Badgerboy 0]

You know that's a stupd ass question badger boy. It's not like for example americans kindhaped russian soldier for intellegence, A Terrorist organization kindhaped a soldier for perpurse of "ransom". Israel is "Horrified" because it was an attack on Israeli soil and not on "Israeli outpost inside Gaza strip", we left gaza for them and they pull of this trick. What you think ? after we will get back the soldier they kindnahped Israel is going to enter Gaza strip with tanks, aircraft & infantry. We will not le this one "slide".

Point being....

I have not seen threats like this from Israel for a long time. Why do they appear to have been more outraged by the kidnapping of a Israeli SOLDIER than the death of an un-armed Isreali citizen?

Personally, when you start blowing Palestinian civilians to bits whilst hunting for terrorists, you are guaranteed to get some sort of reprisal. I'd prefer it to be directed at the armed forces, than un-armed civilians. At least the army can defend itself. From the reaction from Israel, it looks like Hamas would be safer attacking civilian targets again.

THAT, being my point.