The Middle East part 2

[Donnervogel 0]

Quote[/b] ]Excuse me, but the security of the soldier is more importent then some stupid 10 year old girl that enterd a zone which everybody knew that is restricted and will be shot. Her problem that she didn't know. It is unforanate, but theres nothing you could do. that's the way it is, though luck.

Do you realise how silly you are?

I am not very familiar with this case but from reading it here I really have doubts. How on earth is a 10 year old girl threatening soldiers behind cover from 70m away? Oh yeah I see she could have a nuke in her lunchbox. Yeah sure. Comeone. Normal human beings would take a megaphone or raise their voice and tell her to go away. Maybe the army could help out and teach those soldiers how to say basic things like "Go away you are in forbidden area" in arabic. Maybe the soldiers could fire in the air or at the ground to scare the girl away. All that would not bring any additional danger to the soldiers and would probably work if the girl was accidentally there. And how can you expect a 10 year old girl is supposed to know everything about the shitty situation she lives in. 10 year old children are known to make mistakes and to not fully reasilse why people would be shooting at and kill each other.

And let's assume it was an evil terrorist girl with a bomb in her backpack. 70m... a ten year old girl. the soldiers would still have about 15 secounds to react before she could really threaten them behind their cover if she came running full speed at their position - that's more than enough. There really is not a single reason to shoot her right away.

Of course the orders... yeah... you know if you are ordered to shoot anything in 150m range I wonder how many people the IDF loses when they try to bring supplies to those outposts... it must be a masacre...

[mp_phonix 0]

I'm not hiding behind it. Y do you say I do ?

[sanctuary 19]

Maybe he said that because lot of the different opposed propagandists posting in this thread just love to place words in their opponent messages, despite they never wrote them.

Can't wait for the forum update to have a bull-free thread to read here.

[Akira 0]

to bad you dindn't quote the whole sentence akira

Quote[/b] ]Excuse me, but the security of the soldier is more importent then some stupid 10 year old girl that enterd a zone which everybody knew that is restricted and will be shot.

Feel better?

So how does that sentence remain any less inhuman?

How does an imaginery zone remain more important than a child's life? How do you say with any certainity what she knew and didn't know? And even given the chance that she did know, when you were 10 could you accurately gauge 70 meters? When you were 10 did you have any inkling of what the possible consequences were?

Why aim for the child? Do you not think even one bullet, aimed at the ground, some distance from her would not have scared her enough to leave? Why continue to shoot when she tried to seek refuge?

Do these questions even bother you? If not I suggest a long hard look at yourself and your humanity.

[mp_phonix 0]

they do bother me and the IDF could do something else. they have chabnged the rules of engagmnet, and I perviously told why they opend fire in the firstplace.

Funny, Blasowich talking about we destory houses when we don't do it anymore, and then about the shooting of the girl. ROE & Operation procedures has changed since then so why bring it all up again like whats happening now in Gaza is a retaliation for those things ?

[xawery 0]

Blasowich

Sorry for the senseless post, but this is what I'm going to call Balschoiw from now on

/edit: Let's make this post a little less off-topic:

Quote[/b] ]Actually, I'm not surprised from your anti-israeli views . I mean, you are a german.

Wow. That's quite a statement you just made there. If I understand this correctly, you're saying that Blasowich disagrees with your views and Israeli policies because he's German? Why would his ethnicity be relevant? Wait, I get it! Because the Nazi party tried to exterminate the Jews! And the Nazi's were German! Ok, I think I see what you're saying here. Obviously, the actions of the German elite in the second quarter of the twentieth century are hereditery, and thus apply to all the following generations of Germans. How ironic! This train of thought falls squarly within the bounds of Nazi and Communist ideology. Perhaps you are not aware of this, but one of the arguments used against the Jews both by the Nazi's and the Communists was that they killed our Lord Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. The hereditary nature of experiences was even formalised in an official theory in Soviet Russia, called Lysenkoism.

Congratulations! You've just managed to manouever yourself into the category of the worst scum our fantastic human race has managed to produce. Aren't you proud?

[Garcia 0]

You took their country, when they wanted to fight for it, you took more and occupied the little pieces you didn't take.

Have you ever wondered why Israel didn't take the occupied territories the way it took the land captured in 1948?  The answer is in Israel's demographics problem.

Israel wants to be a "Jewish State" which means a nation where the majority is Jewish.  If the occupied territories, with their non-Jewish populations, were to become part of Israel then the nation would only be around 50% Jewish.  Furthermore, the birthrate among non-Jews is MUCH higher than among Jews, so the trend continues to work against the whole "Jewish State" idea.

There's nothing else unique about this conflict.  Had it not been for this demographics problem it would all have been solved decades ago.  Israel would have won and, like all conquered people, the Palestinians of the occupied territories would have become happy Israeli citizens just like their cousins did who remained within Israel's borders after 1948.

Question:  How does Israel get the land God promised them without getting the people and without undertaking mass exterminations or deportations?

Answer:  Occupy those lands and make life a living hell until the people living there go away on their own.

Belive me I know better, I live here.

Really?  Then why didn't you answer my question about letting E. Jerusalem's residents vote in Israeli elections?  Afterall, you claimed that the entire city belongs to Israel now.  The answer is simple...  Israel does not want to increase its population by several hundred thousand non-Jews.  It's just another example of Israel wanting to take the land without the people.

Actually I knew that they did want their country to containt as few people as possible that isn't jewish. IIRC palestine actually proposed that jews moved to palestine and became palestinians, but hey, gods chosen people can't call themself palestinians and share their country with another people

Quote[/b] ]Actually, I'm not surprised from your anti-israeli views . I mean, you are a german.

Actually, that is a racist statement...at least it's quite close to it...so I suggest you, umm, explain how that statement in any way makes sence. In my opinion he, by being german, got a more objective view of the situation than you, because he is not involved in this conflict, while you are involved, and because you are Israeli, the chances for you to be blinded by your nationality is bigger. It's natural for a person to take his country side in a conflict, right? Though, even though you are involved in this conflict, does that give me the right to say "Hey man, your views and opinions are bull...I mean, they have to be, your Israeli..." If you say that I do have that right...then

[Nemesis6 0]

http://csmonitor.com/2004/1126/p07s01-wome.html

Heh, you just quoted Christian Science Monitor... a far from neutral source.

[Garcia 0]

http://csmonitor.com/2004/1126/p07s01-wome.html

Heh, you just quoted Christian Science Monitor... a far from neutral source.

Don't tell me you've never quoted a non-neutral source...

[Nemesis6 0]

One thing I'm interested in hearing is, how do you Israelis actually justify that you actually took their land in the first place? I mean, you can't actually justify it with that crap that "god gave us this country bla bla bla and we were here 2000 years ago"?

I don't really see how you can claim that Palestine is the bad guys, while Israel is never the bad guy, only the poor innocent victim to a bad crime...You took their country, when they wanted to fight for it, you took more and occupied the little pieces you didn't take. And you don't really understand why they have to use suicide bombers? Think about this: You got a Israeli bou on 15 years and a Palestine boy on 15 years. Both get their father killed by the opposite side. The Israeli boy doesn't have to do much really. He got a army fighting for him, and if he want revenge he just get it when he have to be in the IDF, because all he does there isn't terror because it's performed by a army...a army never performs terror, right? At least not the holy Israeli army...The palestine boy however, he doesn't have any army fighting for him. And if he grabs a weapon and fights the IDF he's a terrorist, and besides, he's never gonna get any kind of revenge, since his AK won't do much damage on the Israeli tank...in the end, the only option he got to actually revenge his father is doing it himself, by becoming a suicide bomber. It's not right, but he doesn't have any other solution, except accepting the loss and moving on.

You claim palestinians are the bad guys, while the IDF seems to never do any mistakes. Ever thought about the fact that they only fight for their homes, but they don't got any other way of fighting for them except suicide bombing?

Holy fucking shit, you actually believe Palestine is "their land"? Sounds like you could use some history lessons on the subject of Palestine.

You probably wouldn't read the link I provided, anyway, so I'll give you the story in a nutshell -

1880s - Jewish immigration to Palestine begins, up to, and after the creation of Israel, Arab immigration is almost just as big. There were never any attempts to get rid of the Arabs that were already there. Quite the contrary, Jewish leaders urged Arabs to not leave Israel in 1948 when Arab armies asked the Palestinian Arabs to "get out so we can get in". The Palestinians that fled Israel, hoping the Arabs would kill all the Jews couldn't get back into Israel, and are now called "refugees". The story goes deeper than that, with Arab countries denying them citizenship, etc, but all in all - Israel never drove out the Arabs. They were driven out by their fellow Arabs who wanted to kill the Jews.

Nevermind that Palestine was historically Israel, and Jewish, you wouldn't care. Your criticism of Israel and Jews in general is nothing more than a manifestation of anti-Semitism. I've seen posts critical of Israel... Yours is just racism combined with ignorance.

And please, don't talk about international law when you're not an expert on it. Israel has rejected a lot of bullshit from the international community, and no doubt it has ignored the shit you guys try to pull against it. But let's turn this around - The Gaza strip and the West Bank were used by the Arabs to attack Israel, that's why Israel is there to begin with. Don't forget that.

But on another note - Bernadotte, what was that girl's name, where was she from?

[deanosbeano 0]

http://csmonitor.com/2004/1126/p07s01-wome.html

Heh, you just quoted Christian Science Monitor... a far from neutral source.

LOl sorry but couldnt resist. you should be

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like you could use some history lessons on the subject of Palestine.

Lmao , now i can add hypocrit to your long list of Ills, your alleged site of "Education" has the word "palestine" in quotes ,Wow thats gotta be the most neutral start to a site i ever saw.

just to balance the books which i like to do when you quote.

alternative lesson 1

history lesson 2

and to show you just how silly you are being and once again to prove einstiens theory.if i was to counter your argument that palestine never existed using your Method. I would probaly write

George is a historical figure, an archetypal soldier made famous for tearing down Diocletian's edict against Christianity. For this act he is believed to have been beheaded in Lydda, Palestine (in AD 303), thus becoming an early Christian martyr.

Oh look it mentions palestine in ad 303 its always been around.

LOl sorry but couldnt resist. you should be

[Nemesis6 0]

Yeah, Deano, it would be easier if all who didn't agree with you would be banned, wouldn't it? But then again, I can't blame you for not wanting to hear any other side of the story. After all, you're you. While I've probably got my ills, here's one of yours - Illiteracy. Well I got one smilie for you -

[deanosbeano 0]

well maybe you should find a dyslexia.gif and mock me for what i am, rather than make something up from your twisted vision .

of course there is a a kind of person who does not ackoledge something he dosent like,because when he hurts it ,he dosent have to feel guilt,because the thing he hurts does not exist.i cant quite remember the term i think it was a revisionist or something. really big wink . gif

oh and if you didnt mean illiteracy blame my other ill

[Nemesis6 0]

You being dyslexic is irrelevant. Look at your posts compared to mine. If you're going to attack me personally because you cannot attack my arguments, at least do it in the language that you're supposed to write and speak better than me.

[deanosbeano 0]

you have no arguments, all your posts are based on lies misquotes and biased sites(once again proof can be given). yet when anyone else does the same ,you give them grief.End of my point.

[Nemesis6 0]

No. That's just what you want it to be because you're intolerant of any viewpoint that involves the Israelis not being responsible for the plight that the medieval-like Arab countries are facing. And don't talk about me giving anyone grief when you derail a discussion with your personal opinion about whether I should be on these forums or not due to my political standpoints.

[Messiah 2]

anyway...

from the BBC

Israel has denied Palestinian cabinet ministers detained in the West Bank are to be used as bargaining chips to release a captured Israeli soldier.

Interesting... not sure how succesful it will be, but answering kidnap with kidnap seems a little futile, if not childish - seems to show how desperate their situation is, and how clueless they are to the location of the soldier... Whilst they deny it, I still believe they're trying to force/influence opinions and the captors by capturing these MPs

Quote[/b] ]"They are not bargaining chips for the return of the soldier - it was simply an operation against a terrorist organisation," said an Israeli army spokeswoman.

The operation in question just so happening to occur during an operation to free a captured soldier... wonder if they believe in coincidence

Quote[/b] ]

Meanwhile Syria condemned an incursion by at least two Israeli war planes into its airspace on Wednesday, flying over the summer residence of President Bashar al-Assad.

Israeli officials accuse the Syrian government of harbouring the political leadership of Hamas, which it blames for the seizing of Cpl Shalit.

What did israel hope to achieve though? Surely they're not as ill minded as to declare war on Syria over this?

[Bernadotte 0]

http://csmonitor.com/2004/1126/p07s01-wome.html

Heh, you just quoted Christian Science Monitor... a far from neutral source.

Would you mind posting a source for your accusation rather than a mere google search string?  The Christian Science Monitor is seen as one of the most respected and impartial newspapers in the world.  The fact that it was founded in 1908 and is owned by a church, rather than corporations or governments only strengthens this view.

Holy fucking shit, you actually believe Palestine is "their land"? Sounds like you could use some history lessons on the subject of Palestine.

LOL  Masada2000 is one of the best examples of anti-Arab, Islamophobic, hate-monguering one can find on behalf of Israel's extreme right.  I'm surprised they haven't had their asses sued out of existence yet.

On the topic of Palestine, allow me to point you to a less biased source - Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  The original Mandate for Palestine refers to Palestine as a "country" 12 times.

My favourite part is Article 7:

Quote[/b] ]Article 7.  The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

Israel never drove out the Arabs.

Not according to what historian Benny Morris has been discovering in the IDF archives.  Have you ever heard of IDF Operations like Dani and Hiram?

Quote[/b] ]"...on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

However, the entire arguement of why those 750,000 Arab Palestinians left is rather irrelevant because it was just as much a crime to keep them from ever returning to their properties.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]you're intolerant of any viewpoint that involves the Israelis not being responsible for the plight that the medieval-like Arab countries are facing.

so your saying that because some arab people in your region have no power lack of water and housing , I.E medieval type living conditions ,has nothing to do with israel ?

[Garcia 0]

One thing I'm interested in hearing is, how do you Israelis actually justify that you actually took their land in the first place? I mean, you can't actually justify it with that crap that "god gave us this country bla bla bla and we were here 2000 years ago"?

I don't really see how you can claim that Palestine is the bad guys, while Israel is never the bad guy, only the poor innocent victim to a bad crime...You took their country, when they wanted to fight for it, you took more and occupied the little pieces you didn't take. And you don't really understand why they have to use suicide bombers? Think about this: You got a Israeli bou on 15 years and a Palestine boy on 15 years. Both get their father killed by the opposite side. The Israeli boy doesn't have to do much really. He got a army fighting for him, and if he want revenge he just get it when he have to be in the IDF, because all he does there isn't terror because it's performed by a army...a army never performs terror, right? At least not the holy Israeli army...The palestine boy however, he doesn't have any army fighting for him. And if he grabs a weapon and fights the IDF he's a terrorist, and besides, he's never gonna get any kind of revenge, since his AK won't do much damage on the Israeli tank...in the end, the only option he got to actually revenge his father is doing it himself, by becoming a suicide bomber. It's not right, but he doesn't have any other solution, except  accepting the loss and moving on.

You claim palestinians are the bad guys, while the IDF seems to never do any mistakes. Ever thought about the fact that they only fight for their homes, but they don't got any other way of fighting for them except suicide bombing?

Holy fucking shit, you actually believe Palestine is "their land"? Sounds like you could use some history lessons on the subject of Palestine.

You probably wouldn't read the link I provided, anyway, so I'll give you the story in a nutshell -

1880s - Jewish immigration to Palestine begins, up to, and after the creation of Israel, Arab immigration is almost just as big. There were never any attempts to get rid of the Arabs that were already there. Quite the contrary, Jewish leaders urged Arabs to not leave Israel in 1948 when Arab armies asked the Palestinian Arabs to "get out so we can get in". The Palestinians that fled Israel, hoping the Arabs would kill all the Jews couldn't get back into Israel, and are now called "refugees". The story goes deeper than that, with Arab countries denying them citizenship, etc, but all in all - Israel never drove out the Arabs. They were driven out by their fellow Arabs who wanted to kill the Jews.

Nevermind that Palestine was historically Israel, and Jewish, you wouldn't care. Your criticism of Israel and Jews in general is nothing more than a manifestation of anti-Semitism. I've seen posts critical of Israel... Yours is just racism combined with ignorance.

And please, don't talk about international law when you're not an expert on it. Israel has rejected a lot of bullshit from the international community, and no doubt it has ignored the shit you guys try to pull against it. But let's turn this around - The Gaza strip and the West Bank were used by the Arabs to attack Israel, that's why Israel is there to begin with. Don't forget that.

But on another note - Bernadotte, what was that girl's name, where was she from?

Actually, I did check the site out, and actually, it's utter bull compared to what I've read in books and watched on telly etc etc. And seeing that it says "Palestine", I do prefer to trust the other sources I've seen, which state that Palestine existed before Israel was created...and in that case, YES!, palestine was theirs land...

And I choose to trust Bernadottes sources (without reading them ATM since I'm playing CTI), and they seem to prove Palestine was a country...and as he said, refusing them to return to their property is about the same thing anyway.

And about racism, TBH your not the best person to say wether or not my opinion is racism and anti-semitic.

[Nemesis6 0]

Not according to what historian Benny Morris has been discovering in the IDF archives. Have you ever heard of IDF Operations like Dani and Hiram?

I don't suppose it means anything that the guy has been criticized for fabricating evidance among other things by other historians, does it?

And it doesn't matter how you choose to interpret what the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has said. Palestine was never, and has never been a country. Palestine is what Israel was named after the Romans conquered it.

Operation Hiram was launched after a terrorist attack. Operation Danny was under a war. After all, Jordan did the same to its part of Jerusalem.

[scary 0]

Lmao , now i can add hypocrit to your long list of Ills, your alleged site of "Education" has the word "palestine" in quotes ,Wow thats gotta be the most neutral start to a site i ever saw.

Take a look around the rest of the site (mute your computer and put on some sunglasses first though). It has a very interesting take on things - and a possible problem with their Caps Lock. Be careful though, the banging-on-about-the-Holocaust-ometer goes off the scale.

From the front page:

'The "Palestinians" are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women!'

'ISRAEL'S GROWING CANCER

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ARAB Citizens of Israel!'

Not at all racist.

'ISRAELI-ARAB KNESSET MEMBERS ARE AGENTS FOR THE ENEMY!'

'FACT: One out of every four children inside Israel is Moslem. The annual Arab-Israeli population growth rate is 3.4% while that of the Jewish-Israelis but 1.4%. Do the math and you will see a demographic catastrophe just over the horizon!'

Nor this.

Apparently Israel's military responses are mild:

'That Roman now sits in the State Department and the United Nations and every time Israel offers any half-hearted response to an attack on Jewish civilians, he keeps reiterating, "Israel is using excessive force---Jew, Fight Fair!"'

Tatiana Soskin wasn't trying to incite a riot when she tried to stick a drawing of Mohammed as a pig on to an Arab shop.

She was the victim, yes.

Very neutral that site. A bit like the neutral search of CSM, on that most balanced of sources, Honest Reporting.

[Nemesis6 0]

Lmao , now i can add hypocrit to your long list of Ills, your alleged site of "Education" has the word "palestine" in quotes ,Wow thats gotta be the most neutral start to a site i ever saw.

Take a look around the rest of the site (mute your computer and put on some sunglasses first though). It has a very interesting take on things - and a possible problem with their Caps Lock. Be careful though, the banging-on-about-the-Holocaust-ometer goes off the scale.

From the front page:

'The "Palestinians" are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women!'

'ISRAEL'S GROWING CANCER

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ARAB Citizens of Israel!'

Not at all racist.

'ISRAELI-ARAB KNESSET MEMBERS ARE AGENTS FOR THE ENEMY!'

'FACT: One out of every four children inside Israel is Moslem. The annual Arab-Israeli population growth rate is 3.4% while that of the Jewish-Israelis but 1.4%. Do the math and you will see a demographic catastrophe just over the horizon!'

Nor this.

Apparently Israel's military responses are mild:

'That Roman now sits in the State Department and the United Nations and every time Israel offers any half-hearted response to an attack on Jewish civilians, he keeps reiterating, "Israel is using excessive force---Jew, Fight Fair!"'

Tatiana Soskin wasn't trying to incite a riot when she tried to stick a drawing of Mohammed as a pig on to an Arab shop.

She was the victim, yes.

Very neutral that site. A bit like the neutral search of CSM, on that most balanced of sources, Honest Reporting.

I didn't say I agreed with everything on the website. The guy is very right-wing, but that doesn't mean that he can come up with some damn good sense and research. And by the way, Christian Science Monitor is still not neutral. While it is better than the BBC and, say, the New York Times, it's still not neutral.

However, the Arab members of the Knesset seem to be, mostly, hostile of Israel.

By the way, guys, do you realize that you're using the same points against me that you try using against The Avon Lady? She's on the exact opposite site of the spectrum compared to you, so when you meet someone who doesn't conform to your political views, they hate Arabs, they are racist, they are anything you want them to be.

[scary 0]

I didn't say I agreed with everything on the website. The guy is very right-wing, but that doesn't mean that he can come up with some damn good sense and research.

No, it doesn't. The fact that he is quite nuts and a particularly vicious racist does.

Quote[/b] ]And by the way, Christian Science Monitor is still not neutral.

I never said it was neutral, I was pointing out the fact that the site you used to back-up your views is even less neutral.

Quote[/b] ]While it is better than the BBC and, say, the New York Times, it's still not neutral.

You might try reading the BBC's Charter and agreement before repeating that statement, or at least provide some proof of your assertions. 5.1{c} may throw some light on it for you:

treat controversial subjects with due accuracy and impartiality, both in the Corporation's news services and in the more general field of programmes dealing with matters of public policy or of political or industrial controversy, and do not contain any material expressing the opinion of the Corporation on current affairs or matters of public policy other than broadcasting and matter contained in programmes which consist of proceedings in either House of Parliament or proceedings of a local authority or a committee of two or more local authorities;

The BBC has no choice but to be impartial. The BBC has to report 'news' - not 'news according to Israel' or 'news according to Palestine' just plain, straightforward news without an opinion.

Quote[/b] ]However, the Arab members of the Knesset seem to be, mostly, hostile of Israel.

Good blanket statement that. Being hostile to Israeli policy and being hostile to Israel are not the same thing.

Quote[/b] ]By the way, guys, do you realize that you're using the same points against me that you try using against The Avon Lady? She's on the exact opposite site of the spectrum compared to you, so when you meet someone who doesn't conform to your political views, they hate Arabs, they are racist, they are anything you want them to be.

You are using the same arguments as The Avon Lady, in between the ad hominems. If the coat fits.

*Edit - Poor Grammar* anal retentive that I am.

[Nemesis6 0]

The BBC has no choice but to be impartial. The BBC has to report 'news' - not 'news according to Israel' or 'news according to Palestine' just plain, straightforward news without an opinion.

Bullshit.