The Middle East part 2

[GoOB 0]

We have the right to defend ourselfs, and Jinef, we bring up the "whole holocust thing" so that people will not forget that we do have the right to exist & the right to defend ourselves.

And the palestinans who are innocent don't have a right to exist? It seems as though you are saying they don't since you are argumenting in defence of the demolishing of houses that don't have tunnels underneath them. And what about that huge bloody wall? Does that remind you of Warsaw, or is it just me getting that fresh and exciting ghetto-wibe?

[mp_phonix 0]

Ok, I'll just give you my view point , Ok ?

The Wall - A good idea for a border but it is stupidly build because it took land from the phalastinians.The wall should be build only after the phalastinians have their own county, but arguing about it know is irelivant because it is allready built and it will be a long time before it will be destory {only if}

Invasion To Gaza - good idea. now we can kill more terrorist

Demolishing houses - Israel has allready stopped this policy so it's no longer relevent.

Air-Strike agains terrorist - damn good. we killed a lot of them by this way. the killing of civilian is unfortanate but you can not expect us to stop doing it because sometimes it kills civilians. [Dont say that every time we do it civillians are getting killed ! that is a lie !]

Settelments in the west bank - I think that they should be evacuated. there is nothing for them to look there. I am actually more concerd about the lives of the soldiers guarding them then the lives of those settlers. I don't think soldier should die for some right-wing fanatics. {I'm concidering my self in the center, but little rightes}

Jeruslam - I think that we have claim. It is our, not the phalastinians. I'm not talking about restricting them so they will not be able to enter, i'm talking about that Jerusalem will be part of israeli terretory {like it is now}

[Nemesis6 0]

And the palestinans who are innocent don't have a right to exist? It seems as though you are saying they don't since you are argumenting in defence of the demolishing of houses that don't have tunnels underneath them. And what about that huge bloody wall? Does that remind you of Warsaw, or is it just me getting that fresh and exciting ghetto-wibe?

Hmmm, so if someone supports demolishing houses used by the Jihadis for bomb making, sniper attacks, Qassam manufacturing, one is against the Palestinians' right to exist. That's a very stupid conclusion on your part.

Ah, "that huge bloody wall"... When the security barrier was built, terrorist attacks dropped about 90 percent. Right. I don't think the Germans built a wall in Warsaw to protect the Jews, by the way. So that's also stupid.

All in all, a pretty stupid post.

[Badgerboy 0]

And the palestinans who are innocent don't have a right to exist? It seems as though you are saying they don't since you are argumenting in defence of the demolishing of houses that don't have tunnels underneath them. And what about that huge bloody wall? Does that remind you of Warsaw, or is it just me getting that fresh and exciting ghetto-wibe?

Ah, "that huge bloody wall"... you mean the wall that has stopped so many terrorist attacks. Right. I don't think the Germans built a wall in Warsaw to protect the Jews, by the way. So that's also stupid.

The Germans built that wall to keep the Jews in. They could effectively control the occupants and do what they wanted with them then. See some colloration now?

[Nemesis6 0]

See some colloration now?

No. As I said - The wall was built to decrease terrorist attacks. And it did. I'll say it again - 90% decrease since it was built.

[Badgerboy 0]

See some colloration now?

No. As I said - The wall was built to decrease terrorist attacks. And it did. I'll say it again - 90% decrease since it was built.

Errr, wasn't that about the same time as the un-official ceasefire was brought into place?

[Nemesis6 0]

Ah, you mean one of those ceasefires that the terrorists can break when they have rearmed and all that?

It's called a "Hudna". The literal meaning is "calm". It's a temporary ceasefire. But it's not really a ceasefire because historically, it has only worked in favor of the terrorists, meaning they've continually broken it while it was in place.

[Badgerboy 0]

To be fair, I can't remember the last suicide bomb that has gone off recently. Perhaps they have changed their tactics, or security is more vigilant then.

[Messiah 2]

i think there was one fairly recently (by fairly, i mean 2006 at least), but certainly not as many as the more troubled times... plus alot of it gets overshadowed by Iraq etc.

[Bernadotte 0]

Jeruslam - I think that we have claim. It is our, not the phalastinians. I'm not talking about restricting them so they will not be able to enter, i'm talking about that Jerusalem will be part of israeli terretory {like it is now}

If Jerusalem is part of Israeli territory then why don't you let all of it's residents vote in Israel's "democratic" elections?  Or is this just another example of Israel having taken the land without taking the people?

And once again I'll ask:  In the vast majority of cases where no tunnels were found, has Israel ever compensated any of those 16,000 families for the loss of their homes?

And @ Nemesis6 again!!

2.  What is you opinion of Lehi and many other Jewish militant organisations who used violence to found the state of Israel?

2 - What my opinion about the Lehi is... To be honest, I'm unsure. They drove drove out the British, which is good, and they revived the Hebrew language. That's my initial idea - They fought the British. But I'm aware they were involved in terrorism.

Are you aware that Lehi offered an alliance with the Nazis in return for transfering Europe's Jews to Palestine?  Lehi operated in a very similar manner to today's Iraqi insurgents.

Quote[/b] ]"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle."

-- Lehi underground newspaper, August 1943

One of Lehi's leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, eventually became Israel's Prime Minister.  Shamir's Lehi codename was Michael, after his hero, Michael Collins, the founder of the IRA.

Please tell me, Nemesis6, how much of this did you already know and how much are you finding out for the first time?  Israel was founded by terrorism, so let's face it, as you sow so shall you reap.

Meanwhile, do you really think a Palestinian civilian is any less terrorised when the IDF expresses regret afterwards than when terrorists like Lehi did not?

[mp_phonix 0]

Quote[/b] ]

In the vast majority of cases where no tunnels were found, has Israel ever compensated any of those 16,000 families for the loss of their homes?

No. Europe & USA transfering millions of dollars & euros to the phalastinians, but all they do is arm themselves.

Israel was not founded by terrorisms. First, there was an organization called the "HAGANA" which worked with the british to secure the israeli citys from the arab raiders in the inccidents of 1937-1939. The "HAGANA" mainly took a approach of not retaliationg, but inside the "HAGANA" were people who thought that the "HAGANA" should retaliate more. they left the "HAGNA" and formed the "LEHI". their actions mainly targeted arabs and in the late years before Israel was founded they started targeting british targets. the "HAGNA" condemed those action and so the majority of the Jews in Israel. ANd what a deal with Nazis ? The leader of the LEHI {Zaev Jabotinski} made a deal with the I think in 1935 so that the jews in Germany could sell their proparty to the Nazis so that they could by with that money merchendaise & mechine to develop the Israeli cities here. And that happened before the "Lehi" was created. Check your facts before you are talking.

[Nemesis6 0]

Well, I found out about the nazi thing through Wikipedia. To be honest, it would be a good thing if more Jews came to Israel. Other than that, I pretty much know that the Stern gang carried out some big attacks against the British. By the way, funny coincidence that your nickname is Bernadotte - A U.N. mediator that was killed by them.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]In the vast majority of cases where no tunnels were found, has Israel ever compensated any of those 16,000 families for the loss of their homes?

No. Europe & USA transfering millions of dollars & euros to the phalastinians, but all they do is arm themselves.

Can you produce evidence that those 16,000 families whose homes you destroyed bought weapons with the aid money intended to rebuild their homes?  If not then you are merely fabricating a racist excuse to avoid your obligations as an occupier under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel was not founded by terrorisms.

The British disagreed:

Quote[/b] ]"84,000 troops, who received no co-operation from the Jewish community, had proved insufficient to maintain law and order in the face of a campaign of terrorism waged by highly organised Jewish forces equipped with all the weapons of the modern infantryman. Since the war 338 British subjects had been killed in Palestine, while the military forces there had cost the British taxpayer Å100 million the declared intentions of Jewish extremists showed that the loss of further British lives was inevitable. In these circumstances His Majesty's Government decided to bring to an end their Mandate and to prepare for the earliest possible withdrawal from Palestine of all British forces."

Palestine: Termination of the Mandate

London, 15th May, 1948.

You probably think it was a coincidence that Israel was founded a few hours earlier, huh?  

ANd what a deal with Nazis ? The leader of the LEHI {Zaev Jabotinski}  made a deal with the I think in 1935 so that the jews in Germany could sell their proparty to the Nazis so that they could by with that money merchendaise & mechine to develop the Israeli cities here.

Really?  That's yet another deal with the Nazis that I'd not heard about.  

The offer I referred to was made in 1940 and 1941 by Avraham Stern:

Quote[/b] ]In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)."

Cover Letter in German

[Bernadotte 0]

By the way, funny coincidence that your nickname is Bernadotte - A U.N. mediator that was killed by them.

Yes.  In fact, it's almost as funny that one of the first major targets of Al Qaida in Iraq was UN special envoy Sergio de Mello.

Actually, I chose my nickname exactly for moments like this - to see how long it takes some of this forum's Israel defenders to recognise it.  To my surprise, most Israelis don't even recognise it or know that Israel's 6th Prime Minister was originally behind the murder.  On the other hand, I doubt they will be teaching Iraqi school children the name of Sergio de Mello if Al Qaida sympathisers ever gain power.

[sorry Placebo... I should have merged this post.   ]

[miles teg 1]

You see Bernadotte, the logic is simple... destroy ALL of the Palestinian homes and then they will have no more places to hide tunnel entrances...and..hey...they can't live their without homes...that means..AH HA...they will go live somewhere else!!!

You dare question that all 16,000 of those homeowners and their familes were not Jew hating terrorists?  Haven't you seen the pictures of their babies carrying rifles and suicide belts???  In fact didn't you know that all Muslims want to wipe out all the Jews?  Don't you listen to anything Avon Lady tells you?  She's the expert on Muslims cuz they're shooting at her people so by that, she is an expert on every Muslim around the world.  (yes I'm being sarcastic)

When it comes down to it, the only military solution is to WIPE OUT all of the Palestinians and kill every man, woman and child.  But Israelies don't have the balls to do it because they get all guilty and teary-eyed over the holocaust.

But on the same token doing this half-assed military action is just putting off the eventual final conflict to destroy one side or the other.  (Hurray Armeggeddon!  Hurry up Jesus!!

So we just got this torturous, brutal, drawn out war.

I think its only a matter of time before Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, and a few other Muslim countries develop nuclear weapons technology and eventually attack Israel with these weapons and make their own country a nation of Shahid (martyrs) in the nuclear counter-attack by Israel.  

It is the only logical end-game taking the approach of Israeli conservatives and Arab politicians and radical Muslim leaders.

It would be nice if before that happens you actually had bold moves towards peace.  A ban on offensive military action for example by one side regardless of attacks on their people followed by a massive propaganda assault on the other side of the conflict with messages of peace and reconciliation along with real actions towards that goal.

But both sides behave like animals or at the very least, like spoiled children who refuse to forgive their enemy and must get in the last punch.  

It becomes much like the situation in Sri-Lanka where there are truly no good guys on the Sri-Lankan government side or the side of the Tamil Tigers.  Both sides are horrifically brutal and murder anyone who criticizes both sides of that conflict or who tries to resolve things peacefully betweem the two sides.  Both sides say, "You are either with US or with THEM."   Anyone who can't make up their mind is going to get their mind made up literally with a bullet to the head.    

Once hatred becomes that deeply ingrained in a ethnic or religious struggle, peace becomes incredibly difficult without genocide.    But... not impossible.

So assuming the Hamas refuses to kiss Israel's feet and doesn't bow down to them in submission    and assuming that Israel is just TOTALLY innocent and just simply defending their people, then why don't we discuss the most efficient techniques for slaughtering Palestinians so that the war can be finished once and for all.  (Does any Israeli here see any other logical outcome using violence to defeat Palestinians?)

So lets see...   Bullets are expensive as the Nazis discovered.

Ok how about round them up and...hmm... Gas them? It'll be just like they're falling asleep.  

   Too Nazi'ish?  

Ok ok...how about do it AL-Qaeda style and cut off their heads with a knife?  Both Jews and Muslims slaughter animals by slicing their throat with a knife.  Its humane isn't it?  Thats what Jews and Muslims say anyways...but I don't know about all that gurgling and bulging out of the eyes... yeah thats not media friendly images... especially when doing that to the little kids...but you could always just bash the babies heads against walls.  

Another solution is to seal off all borders and cut off all water supplies!!!  But then images of walking skeletons would again be too Nazi'sh...hmm..

Maybe use weaponized Anthrax and just say that they're suffering from some disease that only kills Muslims because Allah is punishing them for messing with God's chosen people?  Yes..that might just do it!  Hey at least the Christians will buy that.

   

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[mp_phonix 0]

all I can say is lol.

[scary 0]

Israel condemns attacks on its own civilians, but expends an awful lot of energy targeting Palestinian civilians.

I repeat: You believe Israel deliberately targets civilians.

Contrary to your beliefs, constantly repeating something doesn't make it true. As you will see if you look very, very carefully, the word 'deliberately' does not appear anywhere in that quote.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The only possible conclusion for Israel's actions is that is trying to make a Palestinian state un-viable. It's uncomfortably close to genocide by proxy - hold a people under siege, let nature take its course.

Conspiracy nuts, anyone?

Are Palestinians under siege?

Well, they're fenced into their own country, their money is withheld by Israel, their access to, food, water and medical treatment is restricted. Power, communications and sanitation are provided on a whim. So clearly, yes, they are under siege.

What are the results of a siege?

Disease and malnutrition leading to serious health problems, lower birth rates and higher infant mortality. Eventually the population becomes unsustainable. In the mean time, dissension brews and, seeing no alternative form of redress, the area becomes a breeding ground for terrorism.

Are Israelis incapable of understanding this?

Obviously not. They know what the results will be, and not one of them is a reduction in terrorism, in fact, quite the contrary.

Or are you suggesting that Israelis are too dim to understand the impact of their actions?

I was just saying probably civillians will be hiding, and if they go outside and hang out willingly near terrorist and the get blowen up by air-strike, it's their problem

What if terrorist willingly hang out near civilians? It's not the first time terrorists use civilians as human shields.

so the civillians can go back inside the home  . .i dunno

If they still have a home.

You seem to be suggesting that if Palestinians go outside it's their own fault of they're killed by Israeli air-strikes. By the same logic, if an Israeli is killed by a suicide bomber it must be their problem for daring to venture outside, no?

Air-Strike agains terrorist - damn good. we killed a lot of them by this way. the killing of civilian is unfortanate but you can not expect us to stop doing it because sometimes it kills civilians. [Dont say that every time we do it civillians are getting killed ! that is a lie !]

You really have swallowed the party line, haven't you. Israel's actions are akin to using a sledgehammer on a thumb-tack It has a whole heap of equipment at it's disposal, yet demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge on their purposes. Apaches are for air support and attacking armour. They are not for killing individuals in an urban terrain. High civilian death counts in such a situation are not an accident but an inevitibility. A rifle is quite capable of doing the job with much less risk to civilians. Even better still, get some boots on the ground and arrest the terrorists.

In combating Northern Irish terrorism, British security forces killed only 368 people in total over 32 years, but arrested, tried and imprisoned 8-10,000 pIRA members alone. Which country's tactics have worked?

[mp_phonix 0]

scary, you don't know anything about Israeli technology. We buy apaches and load them with our own techonology and equipment. Like we did to the M-60 {that now is called MAGAH} and to the Apache longbow that now is called "Seraf".

[Nemesis6 0]

Holy crap, scary, you're actually arguing about whether you used the word "deliberately" or not even though it makes no difference to what you said? For fuck's sake...

[Garcia 0]

scary, you don't know anything about Israeli technology. We buy apaches and load them with our own techonology and equipment. Like we did to the M-60 {that now is called MAGAH} and to the Apache longbow that now is called "Seraf".

According to the news your helicopters still fire rockets, and no matter what you say, I think most people here understands that rockets is not the weapon you use when you want to take out 1 single person...and not matter what you say a helicopter is not what you use to take out 1 single person, unless you give a big shit in if you kill a civilian or 10 with that person.

[scary 0]

scary, you don't know anything about Israeli technology. We buy apaches and load them with our own techonology and equipment. Like we did to the M-60 {that now is called MAGAH} and to the Apache longbow that now is called "Seraf".

Could you please refrain from telling me what I don't know. I've been in the military since you were learning to tie your shoelaces, oddly enough I do know one or two things military.

It doesn't matter what you call an Apache or what ordnance is strapped to the side. Missiles and rockets make big bangs, they're not for attacking individuals in an urban environment. There is plenty of other equipment suitable for such a task. Or try the non-lethal and more effective capturing option - there is more information available from a live prisoner than a dead splat.

Holy crap, scary, you're actually arguing about whether you used the word "deliberately" or not even though it makes no difference to what you said? For fuck's sake...

Do we have to debate semantics now?

It makes a lot of difference, it completely changes the meaning of the quote. If you don't understand this, it explains why you struggle providing contextual, accurate quotes.

[mp_phonix 0]

Sry Scary, didn't know. misseel give big bang that true. we change the names of the apache because we load it with other technologys and stuff.

Ok' I'll explain, In the west ban Israel constantly deploying SF unit who arrest and detain terrorist, we alsmot never kill them with missels. they die only if they fight back, or at a very rare cases if Israel puts a Apache to do the job.

About terminations in Gaza. There are two reasons why we use airobrne assualts:

1.) Ther is not chance to delpoy SF in Gaza strip without it being noticed

2.) The information recived while the target is in transit, means it only left or will be in half hour. as soon as this information recieved the Apache is Airborne. About 1 month ago israel sent SF team to kill a creq of qasam launcherres, It did but the word spread out and a lot of terrorist began to move to the north Gaza where the SF team was working. they were lucky because a truck full of terrorist was bombed by the helicopter before they got to them, so Israel probably don't want to risk troops I dunno.

you said it's better to arrest and interagate, but how you expect to arrest terror lader who is heavily guarded and on the move, you can't kill him with infantry, airborne attack is better.

[Nemesis6 0]

Israel condemns attacks on its own civilians, but expends an awful lot of energy targeting Palestinian civilians.

How the hell does that NOT mean that you believe Israel deliberately targets civilians? Enlighten me.

[Balschoiw 0]

Of course the IDF never targets civillians intentionally !

Quote[/b] ] Without revealing their identities, soldiers from the Givati brigade platoon told Israeli television how Iman al-Hams had been shot on 5 October in the Tel Sultan neighbourhood of Rafah.

"We saw her from a distance of 70 metres. She was fired at ... from the outpost. She fled and was wounded," a soldier said.

While Iman was lying, wounded or dead, about 70m from the Israeli guard post, the platoon commander approached her and fired two bullets from close range at her head, the soldiers said. He then went back a second time, put his weapon on the automatic setting and - ignoring their objections on the walkie-talkie - emptied his entire magazine into her body.

"We couldn't believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl," one soldier said. “How do you spray a girl from close range?â€

Of course the officer was cleared of charges:

Quote[/b] ] In an internal inquiry, the IDF has cleared itself of "unethical behaviour" in the killing of Iman al-Hams, explaining that the IDF soldiers who saw their officer empty his magazine into the child's body were confused, and were actually seeing him empty his magazine into the ground near her body, in response to sniper fire. As BBC News points out, an IDF spokesperson was unable to explain why the officer in question would have wanted to respond to sniper fire by firing his gun into the ground. The police investigation in Iman's death continues.

Quote[/b] ]n the case of Iman al-Hams, Israeli Chief of Staff Lt-Gen Moshe Ayalon defended the killing on the grounds Iman had been sent towards the outpost to draw out the soldiers so that Palestinian snipers could fire at them. Really? Palestinian snipers were lying in wait for an IDF soldier to leave his protected position so they could shoot him, but when an IDF officer does exactly that – walking 70m from his guard post then standing over the body of a child to shoot her twice in the head, then stepping back and emptying his magazine into her – he walks away unscathed, untouched by the very snipers who are lying in wait for him? So did the snipers forget to shoot him? Or snipers did try to shoot him, and the Israeli soldiers who complained about Iman's shooting just didn't notice this, or think it worthy of mention? Or perhaps the snipers don't actually exist. Perhaps it’s the weakness of the “sniper†story that made other IDF spokesmen fall back on the “we had to shoot her because we feared there was a bomb in her backpack†explanation, that quickly followed the sniper story.

Of course, there was no evidence whatsoever that Iman was actually carrying a bomb either. But just the claim that she might have been is justification to kill her. That’s the great thing about a concerted campaign to dehumanize your enemy – it removes the need for troublesome things like evidence. Once you’ve drummed it into people’s heads that “our†side is always moral and good and upright, and “their†side is inherently wicked and evil and not quite human like us, you don’t need evidence any more. It allows soldiers to kill, and allows the rest of us to rationalize that killing, based solely on our manufactured prejudices and happily unencumbered by facts.

And, before we lose them in a sea of IDF hasbarah, what are the facts here? A 13-year-old girl strayed to within 70 metres of an IDF post and was shot for it. According to eyewitnesses, she tried to flee, but collapsed and was finished off at close range by a soldier "confirming the kill". She was said to be a decoy sent out by Palestinian snipers, but the fact is that there is no evidence such snipers existed. She was said to be carrying a bomb in her backpack, but the fact is that her backpack was found to contain only schoolbooks. She was not killed because she did anything to threaten the soldiers under cover 70 metres from her. She was killed – according to the eyewitness testimony of the soldiers who witnessed her death - by an Israeli officer who shot her 20 times at close range, with a burst of automatic fire so devastating that it severed her head from her 13-year-old body, simply because: "He was hot for a long time to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure". Those are the facts: everything else is just spin to justify after the event the murder of a child by an occupying army whose very presence in that place is illegal.

IDF has a white vest, period

Israel's Responsibility for Killing Children

All lies:

Quote[/b] ]A group of Western diplomats traveling from Jerusalem to Ramallah claim they saw Israeli troops near Jerusalem firing live ammunition at a group of children throwing stones, even though the children were too far away to pose a risk to the soldiers...They also think that one of the children was injured, because shortly after the shooting, the group of children gathered around one youngster... One of the diplomats...says that he saw a second soldier in the observation tower clapping and raising his hands as if in victory after his colleague fired at the children.

Quote[/b] ][T]he Amnesty reports (sic) cites testimony by members of its delegation who witnessed a demonstration in Rafah on October 10, 2000, in which about 200 people participated, most of them elementary school students, who threw stones. According to the Amnesty representatives, even though there was no danger to the lives of IDF soldiers, the soldiers used unjustified deadly force, firing live ammunition at the demonstrators. The shooting injured Sami Fathi Abu Jazar (12) in the head; he died the following day of his injuries. Six other children were also wounded.

Lies all over

Quote[/b] ]Relatives of four-year-old Palestinian boy Luay al-Najjar mourn over his body during his funeral in Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip (news - web sites), Monday, Oct. 4, 2004. Al-Najjar was killed by tank fire as he stood in the doorway to his house, residents said. The Israeli military said there were no shootings in the area.

IDF ? No way !

Quote[/b] ]Islam Dwidar's classmates were still taking in her shocking death - the teacher weeping outside before facing the girls, her closest friend recounting how they walked to school together each day - when the news arrived about Tahreer Abu El Jidyan. The two 15-year-old pupils at Jabaliya's school were both shot in the head by Israeli soldiers inside their homes just a few blocks and several hours apart. Islam (left) died almost immediately after the bullet smashed through her forehead as she baked bread with her mother in their yard on Sunday. Tahreer is still on life support at a Gaza hospital after an operation to remove shards of shattered skull from her brain.

Lies, lies, lies.

Quote[/b] ]"There is a huge gap between us and our enemies, not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." - Israeli president Moshe Katsav; The Jerusalem Post, 10 May, 2001.

Misquoted.

The IDF takes the right and legal approach as the palestinians are all terrorists. Period

[Jinef 2]

People are killing each other, what's fucking new?

If you leave them at it long enough without external interference they get bored and stop.

Stop selling the Israelis loads of weapons and sell Hamas or someone one or two small nuclear weapons to even it all out, you will soon see the whole thing over with quickly A western city might get glassed in the process though, which is ok.