The Middle East part 2

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]this is really childish...

k

[shinRaiden 0]

a) I was suggesting a solution. If you notice up in my long post there are a number of suggestions I made for both sides that could create solutions.

b) When you have a community retaliating against individuals who seek to end the violence, you have a problem. There was a article posted recently over in the Iraq thread about how Al'Sistani can not publicly admit that the US is saving his hide. That's what I am talking about. It's that cultural block I'm referring to.

c) Having talked with many Palestinians in their own homes in and out side of the territories, yes there are many good families who want their kids to grow up and go to school and be good people, and come to America and be a doctor or lawyer or something with a good reputation. We need more of those people, and the problem is that like the rest of the world, the populace is apathetic towards getting involved in their community, so the rabble-rousers take over, until the point that the sane folks give up, or get brain-washed themselves.

d) why should I jump on the 'trash-israel' band wagon? There's plenty that I could say that has already been said, not all of it accurate though.

[kavoven 4]

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

I can't believe, that someone is writing such a sentence in an official forum....

That's pure racingism, nothing else!

[raedor 8]

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

I can't believe, that someone is writing such a sentence in an official forum....

That's pure racingism, nothing else!

wow...

[Gollum1 0]

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

I can't believe, that someone is writing such a sentence in an official forum....

That's pure racingism, nothing else!

I agree.

[Joku_ 0]

Btw, it seems that most european people are pro-palestinian.

I don't know much of other countries medias, but at least Finnish media tends to be heavily pro-palestinian (especially YLE, the Finnish national TV-company). For example, in YLE's news when there was a suicide attack against a bus full of israelis, there was a shortish description of it and shortly afterwards pictures of crying palestinians and story about what wrong israelis have done to them. I don't really remember seeing any interviewing some israeli who has lost his family member in a suicide attack. That can almost be considered as palestinian propaganda and its certainly not objective.

I don't know know about Swedish media but I would guess that they are far more pro-palestinian..

[bn880 5]

Well, Canadian/US media is Pro-Israeli, so that should make up for it.

When there arereports here on Israeli agression, immediately suicide attacks of days ago and the results are shown and mentioned.

Cause and effect, it would be good to have completely objective news aboot Israel, but the media is not going to be objective at least not here, company executives side too much with Israel.

[raedor 8]

Btw, it seems that most european people are pro-palestinian.

I don't know much of other countries medias, but at least Finnish media tends to be heavily pro-palestinian (especially YLE, the Finnish national TV-company). For example, in YLE's news when there was a suicide attack against a bus full of israelis, there was a shortish description of it and shortly afterwards pictures of crying palestinians and story about what wrong israelis have done to them. I don't really remember seeing any interviewing some israeli who has lost his family member in a suicide attack. That can almost be considered as palestinian propaganda and its certainly not objective.

I don't know know about Swedish media but I would guess that they are far more pro-palestinian..

when you compare the statistics how many people died on each side you see that more palestinians died...

that does not mean that this news was objective. but it's no wonder when more palestinians are crying.

[kavoven 4]

Mhm, I would say in Germany it's neutral, you got reports about the things the Palestinian did and about the counter attacks by the Israeli, but there are no very long reports about.

But I think that they interview more Palestian then Israeli

[raedor 8]

Mhm, I would say in Germany it's neutral, you got reports about the things the Palestinian did and about the counter attacks by the Israeli, but there are no very long reports about.

But I think that they interview more Palestian then Israeli

i'd say german "national" tv companies (ard, zdf + the local 3rd one) are a bit pro-palestinian and the commercial ones (pro7, sat1 especially) are pro-isreali...

[denoir 0]

I don't know know about Swedish media but I would guess that they are far more pro-palestinian..

In general when there is a suicide bombing they show the scene and the relatives plus some statement from an Israeli politician. When the Israeli revenge comes then they show the same - the scene, the people and some Palestinian official. For comparison, I'd say that its quite similar to British media.

As for Swedish politicians, the social democrats that are now in power are probably more pro-palestinian.

Of course this is a very relative thing. I think many, especially Americans percieve neutrality as being "pro-palestinian".

[raedor 8]

I don't know know about Swedish media but I would guess that they are far more pro-palestinian..

In general when there is a suicide bombing they show the scene and the relatives plus some statement from an Israeli politician. When the Israeli revenge comes then they show the same - the scene, the people and some Palestinian official. For comparison, I'd say that its quite similar to British media.

As for Swedish politicians, the social democrats that are now in power are probably more pro-palestinian.

Of course this is a very relative thing. I think many, especially Americans percieve neutrality as being "pro-palestinian".

i'd say the other way around: they perceive neutrality as being "pro-isreali". but since i'm not an american i can't say that

[GoOB 0]

I don't know know about Swedish media but I would guess that they are far more pro-palestinian..

I think it's fairly neutral, but many people get quite an akward view of the situation. In my experience, most of the kids my age running about in the streets proclaiming freedom for the Palestinans and screaming that Israel is somehow evil haven't gotten the full picture of the conflict.

But Swedish national television has aired alot of documentaries regarding Israeli opression of Palestinians.

But not a single documentary about what Palestinian terror organizations do to Israeli civilians to provoke this opression has aired. That I am aware of anyway. Although the newsmedia is fairly unbiased... With quite objective and on the spot reports.

There seems to be a "political mainstream" created by media here in Sweden, I may not see it as biased one way or the other since I am fairly educated in the matter of this conflict and already have a strong opinion about it.

I am pro-palestinian in the sense that I want Israel to return the occupied pieces of land and give Palestinans more freedom, however I really despise the methods which are being used by many Palestinians to regain said land and accompanying freedom.

Granted... Israels methods of supressing the Palestinian desire for freedom is equally despicable, democracy at it's finest I suppose. This wall is just the thing to prove it....

"Hey I am really bothered by all these Norwegians coming through our borders to shop in our stores. And what about those Finns smuggling their dirty booze through our borders... Hey! Let's build a wall on their territory to keep them from coming in, I am sure all Finns and Norwegians are out to get us one way or the other"

That's my basic view of the Israeli thought behind this wall, sure Israels problems are far larger than dirty booze from Finland and confused Norwegians shopping in their stores (which I guess is a good thing )

EDIT: Added above text

[Brutal_Impact 0]

Quote[/b] ]Its also sad that the very Euro-controlled Hague has used this as an opportunity to expresss their dislike of Israel

That´s nonsense. Noone controls Haag. Law does , basic international law. And to say that they wanted to express their dislike of Israel is bull. Absolutely bull.

Quote[/b] ]and their support for Palestinian militants and terrorists

Heh ?  

The head of the ICJ is a man from China...

Like you said, Judges dont serve their country, they serve International Law.

[Brutal_Impact 0]

So Isreal does not care what the ICJ says right?

Whats new?

when is the last time Israel followed International law?

[Colossus 2]

I don't know know about Swedish media but I would guess that they are far more pro-palestinian..

I think it's fairly neutral, but many people get quite an akward view of the situation. In my experience, most of the kids my age running about in the streets proclaiming freedom for the Palestinans and screaming that Israel is somehow evil haven't gotten the full picture of the conflict.

But Swedish national television has aired alot of documentaries regarding Israeli opression of Palestinians.

But not a single documentary about what Palestinian terror organizations do to Israeli civilians to provoke this opression has aired. That I am aware of anyway. Although the newsmedia is fairly unbiased... With quite objective and on the spot reports.

There seems to be a "political mainstream" created by media here in Sweden, I may not see it as biased one way or the other since I am fairly educated in the matter of this conflict and already have a strong opinion about it.

I am pro-palestinian in the sense that I want Israel to return the occupied pieces of land and give Palestinans more freedom, however I really despise the methods which are being used by many Palestinians to regain said land and accompanying freedom.

Granted... Israels methods of supressing the Palestinian desire for freedom is equally despicable, democracy at it's finest I suppose. This wall is just the thing to prove it....

"Hey I am really bothered by all these Norwegians coming through our borders to shop in our stores. And what about those Finns smuggling their dirty booze through our borders... Hey! Let's build a wall on their territory to keep them from coming in, I am sure all Finns and Norwegians are out to get us one way or the other"

That's my basic view of the Israeli thought behind this wall, sure Israels problems are far larger than dirty booze from Finland and  confused Norwegians shopping in their stores (which I guess is a good thing   )

EDIT: Added above text

I agree on much of what you are saying there GoOB.

I am a bit on the Palestinian side about having there territory back, but still I condemn the attacks on both sides.

PS:

Quote[/b] ]confused Norwegians shopping in their stores

Yes, we are confused and we are robbing the Swedish stores for everything  

[Apollo 0]

Belgian Media is relativly unbiased in their reports ,if something happens in Israel, whether it's Palestinians attacking Israeli or Israeli "attacking terrorists" ,it's always reported as it is.

However ,the Belgian political establishment seems to support the Palestinian cause more than the Israeli ,and the media often invite's politician's to debate program's where those politician's can explain their stance on Israel.

It's not propaganda or anything ,thing's are reported as they are ,however the Politician's are proppagating a pro Palestinian view when they are asked for it ,so youll rather hear the argument's why Israel is wrong first rather than the arguments why the Palestinians are wrong.

But i think that most Belgians feel that ,while the situation has escalated so much that both party's have blood on their hands ,that ultimatly Israeli expansion (settlements for ex.) is the source of the conflict.

[mr_rOk 0]

@ kavoven

What walls do you know that haven't been used for keeping people out/in?

Memorial ones being exception.

And what guards on the walls wouldn't do their duty?

How come you don't try to negate

"In Berlin's case there were Germans on both sides, regardless of the political directions their governments took(or were forced to take). There was common interest for the wall to go! East Berliners were driving cars 100km/h through checkpoints just to get to the west"

'Cos you can't. Would an Israeli really defect to Palestine? Or vice versa?

My advice to you is; when you see a post that you don't agree with, think about it for 10 minutes and then write a reply.

[mr_rOk 0]

And about "rascist" comments:

Saddam did pay families of suicidal attackers.

And then those same families came crying out in front of TV cameras "Oh, Jews killed my Ali"!

If they put them through proper school, not that religious brainwashing they're getting now, things would be different.

Then they would dream of buying Jewish property not destroying it.

There isn't just armed struggle, you know.

[kavoven 4]

mhm, I don't think, that you thought well enough about your post, otherwise you wouldn't need to write bad stuff about other people!

And, and I see, you wrote a second post...

It sounds like, your thinking, that every Palestinian is a suicide bomber, isn't that a bit, yeah, naiv?

If peolpe watch TV and see a nice car in the advertisement, will all peope, who saw this advertisement buy the car? No, of course not.

Ah, and you're saying, Palestinians are taught in schools to hate Israel, do you really know that, or is it just the porpaganda YOU received in school? THERE IS porpaganda against Israel, but there is also the same propaganda the other way round, so please stop saying that your the nice guys who never say anything bad....

But let me say:

If your land had been taken, by people who weren't there for 2000 years, if these people come there and get support by the biggest industrial nations in the world, billions of dollars, and if these people are taking your rights, your freedom, your private ownership, are building walls through your fields, taking your job and so on, I say again:

What would you do, sit in the corner?

And the wall:

Isn't it destroying many jobs? Isn't it destroying the possibilitys for those Palestinians who buy there things in israeli shops?

There is another point: I think, there are still a few people in Isreal, who aren't such radicals. People who want to live in peace with the Palestinian, like neighbours. The wall isolates both groups from each other, and that increases hate and anger even more!

But you're also agreeing to shoot people, when they're too near to the wall, so, why don't put all the Palestinians into a camp, with a wall around them? That will be the next step, when the attacks on Israel won't stop, and I say you, they'll never stop, until both sides have found a fair solution!

And then we got something, what we already had in history...

You see? I cannot go on and on like it's doing now, so why don't you understand? One side must do the beginning, and the Palestinians won't. So, give them their country, and stop killing people in refugee camps! That would be a big step forward

[Joku_ 0]

For some reason people seem to accept a lot more from palestinian side than from Israel's side. Israel at least tries to target terrorists but palestinians just want to kill as many israeli civilians as they can.

I consider palestinians the most barbaric and racistic nation in the world, a nation which really can be considered as a terrorist nation.

What would happen if palestinians would be in Israels position? Most likely they would immediately start a war and slaughter all israelis they can find. They would probably celebrate in the streets while mutilating dead Israeli bodies. And I doubt they would accept any peace as long as Israel still exists.

In my opinion, Israel is struggling for its existence (though at this point they are the strongest nation in the area). There are hundreds of millions of muslims nearby which all want to exterminate all Jewish people. Israel's neigbors have started several wars to destroy Israel, but fortunately they have failed. In 1948 several muslim countries attacked Israel to destroy it and slaughter its people (if I remember correctly, they openly said that its their goal). Since they failed, palestinians have been trying to do that with terrorism, and UN's support. Without US's support Israel would probably have been already annihilated and if US ever decides to cease support for Israel, Europeans and arabs will probably put sanctions to Israel which would probably result in Israel's destruction.

I don't think there will be ever peace until other side has been exterminated, so the wall is the only way to even calm down the situation.

[denoir 0]

I consider palestinians the most barbaric and racistic nation in the world, a nation which really can be considered as a terrorist nation.

Just recording it for the mods.

[mr_rOk 0]

@ kavoven

You're a silly boy (man?) who's putting words into other peoples (mine atm)mouth.

I won't even bother with you anymore, you're not even worth it.

But still my advice to you stands.

p.s.:now i really wrote bad stuff about other people!!!

[raedor 8]

And about "rascist" comments:

Saddam did pay families of suicidal attackers.

And then those same families came crying out in front of TV cameras "Oh, Jews killed my Ali"!

If they put them through proper school, not that religious brainwashing they're getting now, things would be different.

Then they would dream of buying Jewish property not destroying it.

There isn't just armed struggle, you know.

how can they go to school when their schools get destroyed by the israeli army?

and the israelis can build their wall, but on the borderline (!) and then they should heed that no more settlers and tanks go through it...

[Joku_ 0]

Quote[/b] ]and the israelis can build their wall, but on the borderline (!) and then they should heed that no more settlers and tanks go through it...

I thought that Israel conquered West bank in some war that arabs started? So would this mean that West bank is legally part of Israel?  

Quote[/b] ]In general when there is a suicide bombing they show the scene and the relatives plus some statement from an Israeli politician. When the Israeli revenge comes then they show the same - the scene, the people and some Palestinian official. For comparison, I'd say that its quite similar to British media.

Quote[/b] ]But Swedish national television has aired alot of documentaries regarding Israeli opression of Palestinians.

But not a single documentary about what Palestinian terror organizations do to Israeli civilians to provoke this opression has aired. That I am aware of anyway. Although the newsmedia is fairly unbiased... With quite objective and on the spot reports.

Apparently I was then partially wrong.