The Middle East part 2

[Guest]

Where on earth did I say anything about the Palestinian situation in my post? It's a subject I've made an effort to avoid. I never mentioned the Palestinian situation and I much less said that Israel was behaving like Nazis towards the Palestinians.

The comparison I made was about destroying art and burning books. And I stand by that.

Odd reaction from you, bringing it up out of the blue. Is this something you are projecting that I should think? Should I?

C'mon Denoir.  You've been here long enough to know that when Avon and rufusmac are unable to argue against what you have said then they are forced to fabricate an opinion for you that they will be able argue against.

It's actually rather similar to how the Czar and later Hitler maliciously fabricated Jewish positions, such as the Protocols of Zion, as a means of mobilising the masses against them.

well, aside from the misguided attack against denoir, of which I am truly sorry, what I wrote holds true for many others.  There is way too much animosity here (on this board) and it reflects the greater issue on the whole.  I never said anything about europe being like the nazi's, and I keep insisting that I am not accusing, but sympathizing on the issue of claimed anti-semitism.

In fact, i started my post by expressing how I had generally agreed with denoir, but was shocked by his words (which it turns out he never said).

But why make such a twisted joke?  Using my own expressed worry as a counter argument...  

It seems your issue with me or anyone defending israel is rather entrenched.  I don't use pejorative langauge, and I don't incite, but yet these ad hominim attacks continue.  I'm sorry if it seems like I am putting words in your mouth, but that is debate.  I have no personal interest in vindicating myself, or burning you.  This is not a contest of will; in 163 days I will be donning a red beret and risking my life for the country I love, while you go on with your life in the relative safety of wherever.

In all honesty, i get less frustrated arguing with Palestinians.  They have a real stake in this, as do I.  It doesn't make me happy to see Palestinians trash Israel, but I can respect their gut feelings.  Their lives are hell. When they strike out against Israel, I can draw a direct link to why.  In the same way, I respect the Israeli ambassador's actions.  This wasn't done officially, this was a gut reaction to something that triggered a deep emotional wound.  I respect that.

To all of you on this board who feel that you are accomplishing something by pointing out Israel's faults; it won't change a thing here.  You only strengthen our faith in Israel and its role as the safeguard of the Jewish people.

When I'm debating other issues (as an economics student does most of the time), I find it easy to keep the dialog on a rational path.  I rarely let my emotions get to me in a debate.  This is why.

P.S. I'm not saying that your arguments are worthless, because I respect your position as the outside observer, and furthermore, alot of you have shown a surprising knowledge of the history and current events of Israel. But there is really no reason for people to get hot under the collar on a forum devoted to a video game about a fictional conflict between Russia and the US!

Now look what happened, you pushed a little, and my true colors came out  

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]Now, I have a question. Does Israel really, as the author claims want to be a part of the European arena? From Avon, who last time we discussed Europe said that she "pisses on our culture", I got the distinct impression that she doesn't want anything to do with Europe. What is the general opinion in Israel?

As far as I know, Israel wants to be in the EU. I'm all for it from an economic standpoint, as israel and europe both have much to gain. I don't see it happening for a while though...

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]You only strengthen our faith in Israel and its role as the safeguard of the Jewish people.

I found this very wierd?

Arent jewish people safe living in america or britain or elsewhere or was this meant to be a religiously accosiated comment?

Btw no ones hot under the collar here , i try to keep cool as much as i can apart from the 7 deg temp which s freezing me already

[Guest]

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has NOTHING in common with the Nazi treatment of the jews in WWII.  There are a million other comparisons that can be used, but Israel does not have a plan to SYSTEMATICALLY eliminate the palestinians.

Does Sweden or any other European country have a plan to "SYSTEMATICALLY eliminate" Jews?  If not, then what gives the Israeli ambassador to Sweden the right to compare today's Europe to the Nazi era?

Edit:  I fully expect you to ignore the questions put to you in this post, as you did with my last post.

Good point, one I rather consitently agree upon if you read my posts. I'm not, and never have, defended the ambassadors actions on a political level. But when I heard about the attack for the first time, a smile crossed my lips. On an instinctive level, I felt vindicated.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]You only strengthen our faith in Israel and its role as the safeguard of the Jewish people.

I found this very wierd?

Arent jewish people safe living in america or britain or elsewhere or was this meant to be a religiously accosiated comment?

Btw no ones hot under the collar here , i try to keep cool as much as i can apart from the 7 deg temp which s freezing me already  

This is a good point to discuss what I feel is a lesson from the holocaust.  The reality of the situation probably dictates that jews are safer anywhere "but" in israel.  But in the bigger picture, it is an absolute neccesity for the jews to be able to control their own destiny.  We cannot entrust our lives to another government, and I hope you understand why.  Its not that I worry that America will one day kill us, its that, as is apparent here, people have different opinions and beliefs.  When Israel acts, I know that it acts in the name of the jews.

P.S. I'm in rochester now, so I know how you feel...

-25 C yesterday

Edit: That point about Israel acting for the Jews is rather contenscious, so I will clarify that it is my opinion, and not all jews feel that way.

[bn880 5]

So you say your government acts for your religion. Interesting...

[Guest]

So you say your government acts for your religion.   Interesting...

yup

here is video of the ambassador...

Real player: broadband

[Bernadotte 0]

But why make such a twisted joke?  Using my own expressed worry as a counter argument...  

It seems your issue with me or anyone defending israel is rather entrenched.  I don't use pejorative langauge, and I don't incite, but yet these ad hominim attacks continue.  I'm sorry if it seems like I am putting words in your mouth, but that is debate.

Firstly, I deleted my post 6 min after you apologised to Denoir and 30 min before you posted this.

Secondly, it was not a twisted joke.  It seems that every second post from you and Avon attempts to put words in the mouths of others.  This has nothing to do with healthy debate as your apology to Denoir appeared to acknowledge.  I complained to Avon days ago and to you twice, today.  

Thirdly, I hardly know anything about you so I'm in no position to be invoking ad hominim attacks.  I'm not sure where you are getting this feeling.  Difficult day, indeed.

Finally, you know very little about me or my connections to your country.  Let's keep it that way.  

[denoir 0]

So you say your government acts for your religion.   Interesting...

yup

here is video of the ambassador...

Real player: broadband

Yepp, that's it. His words:

"You are starting a second holocaust."

[bn880 5]

So you say your government acts for your religion. Interesting...

yup

here is video of the ambassador...

Real player: broadband

Not watched this video yet, but lets say I do believe you:

This is a dangerous route, to merge government with religious beliefs or specific religious groups. Firstly it will strengthen what you call anti-simetic views, and can be a cause of long term conflict over beliefs rather than purely factual matters. When you have a government serve a Religion, peopel start having a hard time seperating the people, the government, and the religion. And you get this big red bullseye painted on everyone in all the above.

[Bernadotte 0]

So you say your government acts for your religion.   Interesting...

yup

here is video of the ambassador...

Real player: broadband

The story starts around 11 min and the actual scene starts at 12 min.

Quote[/b] ]"This is the 2nd Holocaust that you are starting now."

-- Israeli Ambassador's parting words to the museum director

[Bernadotte 0]

When Israel acts, I know that it acts in the name of the jews.

Edit: That point about Israel acting for the Jews is rather contenscious, so I will clarify that it is my opinion, and not all jews feel that way.

Here's a contentious claim:  The world-wide number of Christian Zionists who support Sharon's policies is far greater than the number of Jews who do.

[Blake 0]

Well, I still understand his reaction and that he was pissed. Diplomatically correct? Hell no and not even legal. But that 'artwork' was quite  disgusting, with all that music on the background and snowwhite floating in the pool of blood...I think it's extremely naive and vulgar at the same time. And why was it on display on Historical Art Museum? Isn't some pop art museum better place for that...

It's not so hard to fix, just put up a few lamps

[Tex -USMC- 0]

When Israel acts, I know that it acts in the name of the jews.

Edit: That point about Israel acting for the Jews is rather contenscious, so I will clarify that it is my opinion, and not all jews feel that way.

Here's a contentious claim:  The world-wide number of Christian Zionists who support Sharon's policies is far greater than the number of Jews who do.

Well, that's a simple function of the relative number of Jews and Christians in the world. Try adding a 'per capita' to that claim, and then maybe it'll be a bit more contentious.

(yes, I'm fully aware of the reason you make the claim- many Christians believe that a certain set of prophecies must be fulfilled before the Second Coming, and the Jews repopulating the Holy Land is one of them)

[ralphwiggum 6]

now i just heard from the news that the one who killed Rabin is getting married while in jail. any confirmations?

guess there are some wierd women(and men) out there...

[IceFire 0]

So you say your government acts for your religion.   Interesting...

yup

here is video of the ambassador...

Real player: broadband

Not watched this video yet, but lets say I do believe you:

This is a dangerous route, to merge government with religious beliefs or specific religious groups.  Firstly it will strengthen what you call anti-simetic views, and can be a cause of long term conflict over beliefs rather than purely factual matters.  When you have a government serve a Religion, peopel start having a hard time seperating the people, the government, and the religion.  And you get this big red bullseye painted on everyone in all the above.  

Well Isreal was created for the Jews. Jews are people who are Jewish. Therefore the state of Isreal is for a certain religion.

[theavonlady 2]

Well Isreal was created for the Jews.  Jews are people who are Jewish.  Therefore the state of Isreal is for a certain religion.

Some people still can't handle that, including us.

From Israel's Declaration of Independence:

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.

[theavonlady 2]

now i just heard from the news that the one who killed Rabin is getting married while in jail. any confirmations?

Yep and nope.

Quote[/b] ]guess there are some wierd women(and men) out there...

Yep.

[denoir 0]

Well, I still understand his reaction and that he was pissed.

Actually as it turns out, it was planned according to Mazel himself. More and more this looks like a political raid than anything else. It looks like yet another attempt from the side of Israel to discredit EU's Mid East peace brokering efforts. It's not the first time in a relatively small timeframe that Israel has accused EU of being anti-semitic.

Don't you find his statement: "This is the 2nd Holocaust that you are starting now.", grossly inappropriate and disgusting?

Well, it isn't working.

Quote[/b] ]

But that 'artwork' was quite  disgusting, with all that music on the background and snowwhite floating in the pool of blood...I think it's extremely naive and vulgar at the same time.

That's the beauty of freedom of expression. You have the right to your opinion as does the artist. Personally I find the piece very good, and especially the text. I think it conveys a powerful message of the contrast between the innocence we are born with and the madness we are capable of. And most importantly, it discusses the process of how innocence can be corrupted.

Quote[/b] ]

And why was it on display on Historical Art Museum? Isn't some pop art museum better place for that...

It was the Museum of Historical Antiquities, not art and it was there because they are hosting an exhibit on the theme of 'genocide'.

Bernadotte: You might not find this surprising: Apart from a couple of Christian Democrats who are demanding the installation to be removed almost everybody here is in agreement that what the ambassador did was disgusting. This includes Sweden's largest Jewish organization that wrote a column in one of the larger newspapers here on how they are embarrased by Mazel's actions. Go figure.

[theavonlady 2]

Well, I still understand his reaction and that he was pissed.

It looks like yet another attempt from the side of Israel to discredit EU's Mid East peace brokering efforts. It's not the first time in a relatively small timeframe that Israel has accused EU of being anti-semitic.

From an Indymedia article (of all places for me to have to quote from!):

Israel Radio reported that the genocide exhibit included 20 pieces from artists from around the world. Three pieces were selected from Israel, all of which presented the conflict from a Palestinian point-of-view, while a pro-Israel piece of art was excluded after diplomatic pressure from Syria.

[Badgerboy 0]

Bernadotte: You might not find this surprising: Apart from a couple of Christian Democrats who are demanding the installation to be removed almost everybody here is in agreement that what the ambassador did was disgusting. This includes Sweden's largest Jewish organization that wrote a column in one of the larger newspapers here on how they are embarrased by Mazel's actions. Go figure.

Besides anything, the man is an Ambassador. If one can't restrain themselves, they should not be representing their country on the world stage.

Or was he representive OF his country? You decide.

[theavonlady 2]

Bernadotte: You might not find this surprising: Apart from a couple of Christian Democrats who are demanding the installation to be removed almost everybody here is in agreement that what the ambassador did was disgusting. This includes Sweden's largest Jewish organization that wrote a column in one of the larger newspapers here on how they are embarrased by Mazel's actions. Go figure.

Besides anything, the man is an Ambassador. If one can't restrain themselves, they should not be representing their country on the world stage.

Or was he representive OF his country? You decide.

He's both and he did honor to decency and respect for those who were killed in Maxim's restaurant.

Next time, the Swede's shouldn't goof up:

(Swedish Ambassador to Israel Robert) Rydberg, in his meeting with Foreign Ministry Director-General Yoav Biran and Ran Kuriel, the ministry's deputy director-general in charge of the Western Europe department, said he feels the incident was the result of an "unfortunate misunderstanding." Biran and Kuriel said that under the rubric of an "artistic exhibition" Sweden broke understandings it had with Israel that the international convention on preventing genocide would deal with genocide and the lessons of the Holocaust, and not tie into the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

- Jerusalem Post.

[denoir 0]

Well, I still understand his reaction and that he was pissed.

It looks like yet another attempt from the side of Israel to discredit EU's Mid East peace brokering efforts. It's not the first time in a relatively small timeframe that Israel has accused EU of being anti-semitic.

From an Indymedia article (of all places for me to have to quote from!):

Israel Radio reported that the genocide exhibit included 20 pieces from artists from around the world. Three pieces were selected from Israel, all of which presented the conflict from a Palestinian point-of-view, while a pro-Israel piece of art was excluded after diplomatic pressure from Syria.

Quote[/b] ](Swedish Ambassador to Israel Robert) Rydberg, in his meeting with Foreign Ministry Director-General Yoav Biran and Ran Kuriel, the ministry's deputy director-general in charge of the Western Europe department, said he feels the incident was the result of an "unfortunate misunderstanding." Biran and Kuriel said that under the rubric of an "artistic exhibition" Sweden broke understandings it had with Israel that the international convention on preventing genocide would deal with genocide and the lessons of the Holocaust, and not tie into the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Both this claim shave been dismissed as pure fiction and fantasy. The first one was dismissed by the people in charge of the exhibits, showing that there is only one other art piece relating to the Mid East, and it's by another Israeli artist (supposedly famous for his pro-Israel point of view). The other claim has been dismissed by the Swedish government and the Swedish ambassador who said that no such statement was made.

I suppose if you are in a habit of destroying art and burning books then the truth will rarely surface..

Edit: Here is the article in Swedish about it. A short translation of the "Syria claim":

"Israeli media reported on Sunday that Israeli art was prevented from being exhibited after diplomatic pressure from Syria. Accordin to Israel's Army Radio twenty works of art are representing the theme of "genocide". Three Israeli works of art that display the conflict from a pro-Palestinian point of view are displayed, the radio claims, while one displaying the conflict from a pro-Israel point of view was removed.

The manager of the exhibition, Thomas Nordanstad, denies the claim.

"It is completely false and I deny it fully. It is a complete misunderstanding", he says.

The head of the Museum of Historic Antiquities also denies it. The two other works of art being displayed are by the famous Israeli artist Amit Goren whose work present the situation from an pro-Israel point of view."...

[Bernadotte 0]

What if the image floating on the red pool had been of Ariel Sharon?

Would that have been praised by Israel as honouring his actions?

Would that have been regarded as pro-Israel art?

Would it be seen as "trampling upon the sensitivities" of innocent palestinians killed?

[theavonlady 2]

Both this claim shave been dismissed as pure fiction and fantasy. The first one was dismissed by the people in charge of the exhibits, showing that there is only one other art piece relating to the Mid East, and it's by another Israeli artist (supposedly famous for his pro-Israel point of view). The other claim has been dismissed by the Swedish government and the Swedish ambassador who said that no such statement was made.

Would appreciate links to these dismissals.

Quote[/b] ]I suppose if you are in a habit of destroying art and burning books then the truth will rarely surface..

Quite the contrary. This is not a habit. This is quite exceptional.

I suppose Sweden is in the habit of trampling upon the sensitivities of innocent people blown up in restaurants. Now there's a pattern!