The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

The thing that hurts me the most is when people believe that the Jews "use" the holocaust as a crutch to get what they want.

Is this how people on this forum feel?

Some of my family was killed in the Holocaust.  

Now ask yourself this:  Have I strengthened any of my arguments in this forum by revealing this?

[Guest]

The thing that hurts me the most is when people believe that the Jews "use" the holocaust as a crutch to get what they want.

Is this how people on this forum feel?

Some of my family was killed in the Holocaust.  

Now ask yourself this:  Have I strengthened any of my arguments in this forum by revealing this?

sry to hear.  Wasn't an accusation, was an open question...

edit: Unless someone has a preconcieved notion of you as an anti-semite, it won't change how your arguments are ingested here...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The thing that hurts me the most is when people believe that the Jews "use" the holocaust as a crutch to get what they want.

Well here in germany we are tired of the WW2 accusations all over. It is done, we payed in blood and huge piles of money, did extensive lessons on that at school and aided Israel in any possible way. We are the strongest government when it comes to preventing facist movements and ideologies and have a sense for that things. We are open for debates about everything related to 3rd Reich and the things our grandpa´s did.

BUT it has to end someday. Whenever germany raises it´s voice against israel policy there is a strong reaction from Israel about that. Always the "guilt-factor" included. Noone in a democratic nation anywhere on the world is happy when in regular intervals people come point fingers again and remind us of our guilt.

For my generation, we are not guilty. Most of the Nazis already died and we were not involved in genocide. That´s simple fact. We know about it we know a lot about it but do we still have to be reminded of it on a daily rate from countries that do similar than our grandpas did right now ?

When you talk about the USA do you have the vietnam thing on your lips ? Or Hiroshima ? When you talk about france do you remind them of their colonies every time ?

Why should we be happy if it is done to germany all over ?

That pisses a lot of us, including me and only flames racism in longterm. There are a lot of decisions influenced by the israelites here in germany. Just lately as the holocaust memorial in Berlin is being built right now it got nearly cancelled as a company that contributes raw material for the memorial and is the biggest financier of it was accused that it had a role in 3rd reich´s cruelties. The project was nearly toppled but they found a way.

You know if they had refused to donate for the memorial there would have been the same idiots screaming as they did now because the company took part in the process.

That´s just stupid and pisses a lot of people.

I think germany did a pretty good job if you keep in mind that it was bombed to bits at the end of WW2. We don´t hate US or brits for burning down Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg...with hundreds of thousands people killed in the fires. We don´t hate russians for killing 100.000´s of POW´s or killing civillians that were on the run in large amounts in Pommern and such.

We don´t do that. So why is it that people still try to put the Nazi flag on germany ? We are no nazis, we are german and someone who says "I´m proud to be german." get´s tatooed as Nazi while in the US someone saying "I´m proud to be american" is not pointed at Hiroshima or Nagasaki all the time.

People have to come over this and stop commenting everything we do or not do with relations to 3rd Reich. They just fuel antisemitism again.

If you want to fight Nazis go to the UK or the USA. They seem to be the biggest fans of that shit.

Quote[/b] ]In Avon's defense, I don't recall her ever claiming you (or any german) couldn't participate in this debate because of your countrys history.

Ididn´t say that she keeps me from participating her as I wouldn´t really care anyway but she hardly misses a chance to point me to WW2 if she feels so.

[Bernadotte 0]

Personally, i worry myself that the valuable lessons of the holocaust will become further cheapened (just look at all the Bush=hitler placards at a protest) because people are so entrenched in their positions.

I agree that the internet and protest rallies are generally full of hyperbolate.  But how do you feel about the Israeli ambassador's comments in the aftermath of yesterday's incident?

Quote[/b] ]"We are in the 1930s now: That is the feeling of many of us who know history," said Mazel, referring to the decade that saw the Nazi takeover in Germany and led to the slaughter of 6 million Jews. "There is a feeling among many people, including me, of a tragedy that could be coming."

I suppose he's correct that the works of Jewish artists were vandalised in the 1930s, too.

And what do you think of the response from Moshe Zimmermann, a European history professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem?

Quote[/b] ]...while Muslims in Europe have adopted some anti-Semitic slogans, "there is no big anti-Semitic wave among the Europeans."

Zimmermann said complaints about anti-Semitism were meant to cover for "the destructive actions of Israel" in the West Bank and Gaza. "If everyone's an anti-Semite, you don't need to debate them."

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]"We are in the 1930s now: That is the feeling of many of us who know history," said Mazel, referring to the decade that saw the Nazi takeover in Germany and led to the slaughter of 6 million Jews. "There is a feeling among many people, including me, of a tragedy that could be coming."

Comments like this make me mad. Germany, Nazis, the risk of new facism in europe, blabla, but always that great reminder about germany.

See what I mean ?

Our embassadors don´t throw spotlights at art. It was an Israeli embassador. Maybe Israel should rethink his position.

Every fart is brought in direct relation to 3rd reich and genocide. I can not see that here. And the

Quote[/b] ]"There is a feeling among many people, including me, of a tragedy that could be coming."

comment is exactly the kind of comment that has nothing to do with his shitty action. It´s a brainfart to think that antisemitism is the way europe goes.

Comments like this make me angry and the only thing I have to say to Mr. Mazel:

Piss off and tell your phantasies elesewhere.

When will Sweden declare him "persona non grata" again ?

Uh, sure this will be an action of facist elements within Sweden´s government than. I can hear him whining right now.

[denoir 0]

Quite typical. You know, branding every from of criticism or even comment on the state of Israel anti-semitism only serves to deminish the meaning of that word. It would seem, according to the illustrious representatives of the state of Israel that disagreeing with a Jew on any subject constitutes anti-semitism. And that's sad and an insult to the memory of those that had to live through an era when real anti-semitism was policy.

I'm not worried about the Germans not understanding the holocaust. I'm worried about Israelis not understanding the holocaust. It is used so much as an excuse, a reason and argument that it's being watered down.

A great combination in the Mid East, would you not say? You have the Arabs who are convinced that Israel is responsible for everything bad happening in the world. And then you have Israel thinking that everybody else in the world is an anti-semite out to get them. No wonder there is no peace in the region.

[bucket man 2]

I remember when Israel used nazi card against Finland about a year ago. Finnish politic Erkki Tuomioja critizied Israel of its actions in West Bank and they replied "How can you judge us? You were allies of nazis in WW2"

They use the nazi card almost every time someone judges them. Its getting really ridicilous. It happened almost 60 years ago for christ sakes! Germany repayed their crimes and Israel is taking the same road with palestinians as Hitler did with jews. Wonder how long it takes untill palestinian civilians are locked up in camps.

[Longinius 1]

Well, if you define a camp as a spot of land enclosed by a fence or wall, then we are all ready there... Of course, Israel isnt gasing anyone. And I dont think they ever will. They are however effectively killing of any and all possibilities for work and companies to exist in the regions closed of by the wall.

[Guest]

I remember when Israel used nazi card against Finland about a year ago. Finnish politic Erkki Tuomioja critizied Israel of its actions in West Bank and they replied "How can you judge us? You were allies of nazis in WW2"  

They use the nazi card almost every time someone judges them. Its getting really ridicilous. It happened almost 60 years ago for christ sakes! Germany repayed their crimes and Israel is taking the same road with palestinians as Hitler did with jews. Wonder how long it takes untill palestinian civilians are locked up in camps.  

Denoir, this is what I am talking about.

1:  firstly, the defensive tone everyone has taken up illustrates the dillema perfectly.  I made no accusations at all, if anything, I was acknowledging that it is a problem that Israel and the Jewish world have struggled with handling.

BUT:

2:  Look at Bucketman's claim.  I mean seriously...

Therein lies the dillema.  On one hand, I completely understand the humiliation the German people must feel whenever this is mentioned (my stepfather is Japanese and feels similarly), but on the other hand, look at the Ambassadors actions, they were not premeditated.  It was a visceral response to a feeling; a feeling that many jews have (and can be statistically proven) that anti-semitism is on the rise again.  Certainly comparing it to 1939 carries a certain degree of hyperbole, but you must understand that one of the greatest tragedies of that era was that hardly anyone realized what was happening until it was too late.

[Blake 0]

Sidenote: That piece of 'art' is no Guernica...and never will be.

Quote[/b] ]Finnish politic Erkki Tuomioja critizied Israel of its actions in West Bank and they replied "How can you judge us? You were allies of nazis in WW2"

Well he's reknown anti-Israeli politician and has said quite alot of stupid things earlier. But now he has luckily kept his mouth shut once he was slapped on the wrist. One can easily think that the country's policy is the same as one politician's personal opinion...

[bucket man 2]

If someone got idea of my post that I think that holocaust wasnt all that bad they are wrong. It was one of the most horrific crimes ever committed but it was a long time ago and germans payed for their leaders crime.

I can understand why jewish people still talk about it but heir government uses it to silence critic directed at their actions.

[bucket man 2]

Sidenote: That piece of 'art' is no Guernica...and never will be.

Quote[/b] ]Finnish politic Erkki Tuomioja critizied Israel of its actions in West Bank and they replied "How can you judge us? You were allies of nazis in WW2"

Well he's reknown anti-Israeli politician and has said quite alot of stupid things earlier. But now he has luckily kept his mouth shut once he was slapped on the wrist. One can easily think that the country's policy is the same as one politician's personal opinion...

You are right about that nations opinion thing and it doesnt bother me that Israel didnt like it.

What bothers me is that they used the nazi card against a nation that didnt ever even take part in the holocaust if you dont count those 60 jews that were sent to Germany from Finland.

[EiZei 0]

More than 60 got sent but im pretty sure that ones who remained here were much better off alongside Hitler than Stalin in this case.

And Israel was definetly overreacting in Tuomioja's case (can't say that I totally disagreed with him), I actually got flamed by an israeli in IRC for that. (!)

[denoir 0]

Denoir, this is what I am talking about.

1:  firstly, the defensive tone everyone has taken up illustrates the dillema perfectly.  I made no accusations at all, if anything, I was acknowledging that it is a problem that Israel and the Jewish world have struggled with handling.

BUT:

2:  Look at Bucketman's claim.  I mean seriously...

Therein lies the dillema.  On one hand, I completely understand the humiliation the German people must feel whenever this is mentioned (my stepfather is Japanese and feels similarly), but on the other hand, look at the Ambassadors actions, they were not premeditated.  It was a visceral response to a feeling; a feeling that many jews have (and can be statistically proven) that anti-semitism is on the rise again.  Certainly comparing it to 1939 carries a certain degree of hyperbole, but you must understand that one of the greatest tragedies of that era was that hardly anyone realized what was happening until it was too late.

I don't think anybody made any accusations against you. What has been discussed that the state of Israel seems to use the holocaust as an argument for anything. And people get real tired of being called anti-semites. Those that take the holocaust seriously should not use that term so lightly.

Ironically such unfounded accusations lead by themselves to a degree of resentment towards Israel - it become a self-fulfilling prophecy. People don't like to be called Nazis and if you on unfounded grounds call them that then they won't like you.

Europe today is very different than it was 50 years ago 100 years ago or 1,000 years ago. I don't think many non-Europeans realize the tremendous changes that our continent has gone through in the last half-century. Europe considers itself evolved into a sort of post-war society with the ideals that through diplomacy and cooperation anything can be solved. The opposition to Israel's policies are not due to anti-semitism, but due to the same ideology that we're not too fond of America's policies - pacifism. Now if that is naive or not - that's another discussion. And it is far from done and far from perfect (case example Yugoslavia). The point being however that there is really no anti-semitism in Europe's politics. It's clear paranoia (or domestic political exploatation) on the side of Israel. It is as silly as when Baghdad's citizens say that Israeli spys are sabotaging the water pipes.

As I see it (and this is reinforced by the actions of the ambassador), Israel has drawn all the wrong conclusions from the holocaust. Instead of understanding the process on a general level and said "Never again to anybody", Israel said "Never again to Jews" - and took the position that it would defend the Jewish people, no matter what it takes. And this includes resorting to methods that those that comitted the holocaust used.

Could the ambassador and the people defending him not see the parallels between how the Nazi burned books written by Jews and his wrecking of an exhibition he did not like?

Now, I'd rather not jump to gereralizations to how the majority of Israel's citizens feel about the ambassador's actions - but he is the formal representative of the government of Israel. And right now the image he is projecting is very bad. And the endorsement from Sharon doesn't make it exactly better.

[Blake 0]

As I said he could have just walked out...and Sharon should have kept his mouth shut.

And the one who benefits from all this is the maker of this annoying piece of 'art', at least it's now famous...

Quote[/b] ]"How can you judge us? You were allies of nazis in WW2"

Btw just curious, who said that, is that an exact quote and is it in a proper context?

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]As I said he could have just walked out...and Sharon should have kept his mouth shut.

And the one who benefits from all this is the maker of this annoying piece of 'art', at least it's now famous...

In my opinion, art is about making people think and talk about a certain issue. I remember many issues about contradictory works of art that is made about Jesus being talked over and criticized, but that doesnt make it allright to vandalize someones work, regardless if you think its art or not. In finland we have a long history of censorship, the most recent case was a book called "häräntappoase" so would it be allright to put that book to cencorship becouse some people see it (read it) differently than others? Not in my opinion it wouldnt...

[Guest]

Denoir, this is what I am talking about.

1:  firstly, the defensive tone everyone has taken up illustrates the dillema perfectly.  I made no accusations at all, if anything, I was acknowledging that it is a problem that Israel and the Jewish world have struggled with handling.

BUT:

2:  Look at Bucketman's claim.  I mean seriously...

Therein lies the dillema.  On one hand, I completely understand the humiliation the German people must feel whenever this is mentioned (my stepfather is Japanese and feels similarly), but on the other hand, look at the Ambassadors actions, they were not premeditated.  It was a visceral response to a feeling; a feeling that many jews have (and can be statistically proven) that anti-semitism is on the rise again.  Certainly comparing it to 1939 carries a certain degree of hyperbole, but you must understand that one of the greatest tragedies of that era was that hardly anyone realized what was happening until it was too late.

I don't think anybody made any accusations against you. What has been discussed that the state of Israel seems to use the holocaust as an argument for anything. And people get real tired of being called anti-semites. Those that take the holocaust seriously should not use that term so lightly.

Ironically such unfounded accusations lead by themselves to a degree of resentment towards Israel - it become a self-fulfilling prophecy. People don't like to be called Nazis and if you on unfounded grounds call them that then they won't like you.

Europe today is very different than it was 50 years ago 100 years ago or 1,000 years ago. I don't think many non-Europeans realize the tremendous changes that our continent has gone through in the last half-century. Europe considers itself evolved into a sort of post-war society with the ideals that through diplomacy and cooperation anything can be solved. The opposition to Israel's policies are not due to anti-semitism, but due to the same ideology that we're not too fond of America's policies - pacifism. Now if that is naive or not - that's another discussion. And it is far from done and far from perfect (case example Yugoslavia). The point being however that there is really no anti-semitism in Europe's politics. It's clear paranoia (or domestic political exploatation) on the side of Israel. It is as silly as when Baghdad's citizens say that Israeli spys are sabotaging the water pipes.

As I see it (and this is reinforced by the actions of the ambassador), Israel has drawn all the wrong conclusions from the holocaust. Instead of understanding the process on a general level and said "Never again to anybody", Israel said "Never again to Jews" - and took the position that it would defend the Jewish people, no matter what it takes. And this includes resorting to methods that those that comitted the holocaust used.

Could the ambassador and the people defending him not see the parallels between how the Nazi burned books written by Jews and his wrecking of an exhibition he did not like?

Now, I'd rather not jump to gereralizations to how the majority of Israel's citizens feel about the ambassador's actions - but he is the formal representative of the government of Israel. And right now the image he is projecting is very bad. And the endorsement from Sharon doesn't make it exactly better.

wo, i'd like to say I agree with you on the whole, because, before this post, you raised good points.  But you are doing just what I was explaining.  Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has NOTHING in common with the Nazi treatment of the jews in WWII.  There are a million other comparisons that can be used, but Israel does not have a plan to SYSTEMATICALLY eliminate the palestinians.  Its not even close.  This should not be a debatable point.  I don't know if its obvious, but I am pretty crititical of the current israeli policies in the WB and GS, but this is a ridiculous statement.  Even making the claim shows a frightening void of knowledge about what the holocaust represented.

You are failing to realize the lessons of hindsight. I will emphasize this point again because it relates here as well.  

*****Its about perceptions!******

Using '67 as an example, the CIA knew that Israel's army would rout the UAR forces.  Johnson told this to Eshkol, but Eshkol refused to believe him.  Read Michael Oren's "Six Days of War for more on this.  The Israelis at the time, of whom many had been survivors of the holocaust were convinced that it was happening again.  A profesor of mine once said "Memories resonant deeply in the Middle East".  This couldn't be truer.  

I, personally, do not see European governments instituting political anti-semitism.  I do see anti-semitism on the rise in Europe.  I am not equating anti-israel behavior with anti-semitism, I am clearly pointing out that a gap exists between israeli perceptions and european perceptions. I respect Germany and Japan immensely for the way they have reconciled their pasts and become world powers again, but it is too easy for this "new" europe to scorn Israel, a relatively "young" country (with an old heritage).

[denoir 0]

Where on earth did I say anything about the Palestinian situation in my post? It's a subject I've made an effort to avoid. I never mentioned the Palestinian situation and I much less said that Israel was behaving like Nazis towards the Palestinians.

The comparison I made was about destroying art and burning books. And I stand by that.

Odd reaction from you, bringing it up out of the blue. Is this something you are projecting that I should think? Should I?

[bn880 5]

Just want to say I do agree with Denoir on the issue of 'burning' art. This act by the ambassador annoys me just as much as Christians not being able to put up a cross at a former concentration camp... some of you may remember that.

As for teh Nazi/Jewish comparison, I do see a lot of similarities. For example the way the wall has been implemented, this is pretty much what Nazis did in Warsaw.

[Bernadotte 0]

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has NOTHING in common with the Nazi treatment of the jews in WWII.  There are a million other comparisons that can be used, but Israel does not have a plan to SYSTEMATICALLY eliminate the palestinians.

Does Sweden or any other European country have a plan to "SYSTEMATICALLY eliminate" Jews?  If not, then what gives the Israeli ambassador to Sweden the right to compare today's Europe to the Nazi era?

Edit:  I fully expect you to ignore the questions put to you in this post, as you did with my last post.

[Bernadotte 0]

(resolved)

[Guest]

Where on earth did I say anything about the Palestinian situation in my post? It's a subject I've made an effort to avoid. I never mentioned the Palestinian situation and I much less said that Israel was behaving like Nazis towards the Palestinians.

The comparison I made was about destroying art and burning books. And I stand by that.

Odd reaction from you, bringing it up out of the blue. Is this something you are projecting that I should think? Should I?

I must be seeing things. I hope you accept my apologies, I'm having a rough day.

[denoir 0]

No problem. Freudian slip?

Here's a good article from the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz on the incident. Quite a contrast from the Jerusalem Post stuff. I suppose these are more liberal guys:

Quote[/b] ]

This isn't Sweden

By Yitzhak Laor

Immediately after the occupation, the soldiers who checked the buses between the Gaza Strip and Israel - even before they told the passengers to show their hawiyya ("identity, i.e. identity card) - adopted a style of question to the bus drivers: "Are there any Swedes?" - meaning: "Are there any Palestinians?" In the everyday language that was used then, before the Yom Kippur War, there was nothing more inferior than the defeated Arabs, and especially the Palestinians, and there was no contrast greater than the contrast between them and the "Swedes," that is - blond, good-looking, manufacturers of the Volvo. This was the scornful style of the victors.

The incident in which Israel's ambassador to Sweden, Zvi Mazel, wrecked the installation in the museum in Stockholm succeeded in explaining to the Swedes how far we - not "the region," not "the conflict," but we - are from notions of the freedom of artistic expression.

The ambassador succeeded in explaining to the Swedes what is sometimes difficult for Israeli artists to explain in the West: Israel is indeed a democratic country, and in some respects it is even very democratic, and the freedom of expression is also protected there, perhaps, with the help of rulings by the High Court of Justice, but the law is a marginal factor in the existing public atmosphere and notions of freedom of artistic expression in Israel are very far from what is known in the West. The way in which this past September the Tel Aviv Museum removed works by artist David Wachstein - "in consideration of the feelings of Holocaust survivors" - is not very much different from what the ambassador did there.

All of this past Saturday, while the political community - which hastens to react on weekdays over the open airwaves of the radio and the Internet - was resting, readers of newspapers on the Internet could learn about what had happened in Stockholm without slanting the incident in the direction of "Gewald, they're murdering us." On the Haaretz and Y-net Internet sites, surfers could read the text that accompanied the installation by Dror Feiler and Gunilla Skoeld.

This is a beautiful text. It has one serious flaw: it violates an Israeli taboo whereby it is prohibited to look hard at the faces of the suicide terrorists. Breaking this taboo made the Israeli ambassador blow a fuse.

However, the ambassador gave us the code for what is happening here, not there, and it is no different from the days when "Queen of the Bathtub," Hanoch Levin's play that satirized Golda Meir's government, was withdrawn from the stage of the Cameri Theater. Now the theaters are cautious. There is nothing really political in them. Similarly, there was the "punishment of Jose Saramago," whose tens of thousands of readers boycotted his important book "Blindness." And there are many other examples.

On Saturday evening, when the political community swung back into action, we began to get the proud reaction to the embarrassing incident. Full backing for the ambassador from Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and from former prime minister Ehud Barak, and yesterday - also from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Barak hastened to put quotation marks around the term "work of art." Where did he get that? What does he know about aesthetic judgment?

However, let us set aside Barak's style; he knows everything, always, in advance or in retrospect. This is the Israeli move: Heaven forbid that we should impinge on artistic freedom, but this isn't art. It can't be art, because we're not against art, and therefore we must immediately find an art critic who will tell us that this isn't art. What about the museum in Stockholm that determined that this is a work of art? Well, it hurt us deeply, and therefore it is not entitled to determine what a work of art is, and obviously it is anti-Semitic, or pro-Palestinian.

The Israelis' notions of culture are not notions of "something that is outside me, and I learn to live with different nuances in it." Culture in Israeli terms is "something of which I must be a part," that is - "it must be part of me"; we and culture are one and the same. And when we cannot be part of a culture that also listens to the sufferings of that suicide terrorist ("abominable, low, despicable, daughter of Satan"), the artistic representation of her must be destroyed, whether by quotation marks, in the Barak style, or by means of the ambassador, or the foreign minister, or the prime minister.

The Israeli passion to be, on the one hand, "Europe" or "the West," against the backdrop of the cruel war here, and, on the other hand, to shut itself into a world of images that will not endanger even for a moment what we here "take for granted" - is the worst characteristic of the past three years. Here we have lost the war.

We have learned to live not only in fear, but also in the demonization of the other side, and from within wrapping ourselves in increasing mourning as the sole and exclusive victim. This demonization is accompanied by the perpetual observance of mourning, which rests on the total rejection of any rational debate and on a closed and eroded world of images. This system is tightening around us and our cultural life is becoming more meager, with no connection to the economic situation.

The violence of the Israeli ambassador in Sweden is not an opportunity for the Swedes to take a close look at us, but rather for us - precisely because it occurred in the European arena, the arena of which we are so keen to be part - to take a close look for a moment at our concepts of tolerance, real and fake.

source link

Now, I have a question. Does Israel really, as the author claims want to be a part of the European arena? From Avon, who last time we discussed Europe said that she "pisses on our culture", I got the distinct impression that she doesn't want anything to do with Europe. What is the general opinion in Israel?

[Acecombat 0]

You forgot the term 'vile europeans' denoir

[denoir 0]

Hehe, that is indeed an Avonesque expression