human rights for the al-queda terrorists

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">whats with the crap on everybody accusing or suggesting my country on torture? we aint torturing nobody (snip)<span id='postcolor'>

How naive is that?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nordin dk @ Jan. 14 2002,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">whats with the crap on everybody accusing or suggesting my country on torture? we aint torturing nobody (snip)<span id='postcolor'>

How naive is that? <span id='postcolor'>

Uhhh, who did the US torture? Or is this based of a "belief" rather than "evidence"? Did amnesty international list the US as a torture country?

[Wobble 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Jan. 14 2002,11:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. What right does America have bringing those guys to Cuba to start with? Aren't they POW's?

2. Isn't it illegal to keep prisoncamps like the one on Cuba, where prisoners are exposed to the elements like that?

3. Do you really think all Taliban soldiers are terrorists, or even knew about WTC? If you do, you are truly stupid.

Its all utter crap and a big setback for international law and human rights. Again, the biggest guy on the block does whatever he damn pleases.

As for defining torture, it is rather simple. Any action deviced to do physical or mental harm to a defenseless person(s) is torture.<span id='postcolor'>

1: everything complies with the terms set in the genive convention.

2:everything complies with the terms set in the genive convention.

3: maby not, but seeing as how the taleban was givin MANY MANY chances to cooperate with the US and refused and aeven mocked the attempt at avoiding a conflict with them by calling the US 'cowards' then they are the enemy. they had their chanced, they made the decision.. now they are fucked.

and are the terrorists? all of them/ maby not BUT a terrorist (bin laden) finances and controls their 'army' so they are fighting for a terrorist orginazation.. If you fight for a terrorist are you not a terrorist aswell??

bottom line is that the taleban NOT the US drove this to conflict.. the US made every attempt to negotiate with them to cooperate.. not to 'give us bin lade' but to allow the NATO to enter the region.. the Taleban said if we come looking for Bin Laden we will be attacked.. so they are protecting terrorists.. and as bush and blair said anyone knowingly aiding or housing a terrorist organization will be treated as terrorist themselves.. which is perfectly sensable and fair..

Bin Laden OWNS the Taleban.. period..they are almost literally his personal army... he gives them LOTS of money (should i say gave)

[Camel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Jan. 14 2002,08:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you just killed all the terrorists there wouldnt be a problem<span id='postcolor'>

Then who is being a terrorist?

That would be a fine simple solution to a simple problem, but its not a simple problem.

Many Americans seem to forget that the motivation behind Osama Bin Laden lies in his -and some muslim peoples- sense of betrayal at the abuse of their respective countries by America. It backed middle eastern occupation of their countries and has since imposed sanctions and taken out covert bombing raids for over 40 years.

You cannot say "they pushed me first so we're pushing them back harder" because US foreign policy over the past 40 years in Israel and Iraq and Afghanistan (Supplying arms to the Taliban) has actively encouraged fomentation of muslim hatred and enabled the rise of terrorist-harbouring groups.

Maybe Wobble (above) would look at it differently if she/he recognised that less than 10 years ago it was the US who gave the Taliban heaps of money to attempt (vainly) to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan.

Regards, a particularly pissed off Australian who has to put up with his current government backing a futile and pointless war which will only continue to encourage xenophobic hatred on both sides of the conflict.

[Guest]

*Sigh*

So, "Camel": it's all our fault that we were attacked? Jesus.

And, so what if we helped the Taliban 10 years ago? Does that mean we owe them something? What's the point of your post anyway?

[KingBeast 0]

Well not all taliban soldiers were necessarily evil terrorists.

Thats like saying the entire german army of WW2 were Nazis.

Sometimes people do stuff because they want to, and sometimes they do stuff because they were forced to, or sometimes they do stuff because it is required in order for them and/or their family to survive.

I dont know where im going with this, just dont assume all taliban are baby killing, women raping building exploding bad guys.

[Wobble 1]

I dont know where im going with this, just dont assume all taliban are baby killing, women raping building exploding bad guys.

no, they just protect and help the people who do that.

[KingBeast 0]

Again same as the German soldiers. They were Hitler and the Nazis tool, they protected the fatherland, then extended the reach of the Reich.

Doesnt mean all Germans were bad guys.

[Wobble 1]

yes but most german soldiers didnt know about the atrocities that were commited... im pretty sure every soldier fighting for the taleban has a pretty good idea about what happened to get them in the situation they are in... they know what happened, they either:

A: know it is wrong and fight anyway

B: think it was right and are no better then the people who did it..

either way...

I know you say they are doing their job.. and yes being a soldier is their job.. but as proven by the Nurenberg trials "I was just following orders" is no longer an acceptable excuse the soldier in question was knowingly doing something that is WRONG.. I.E. defending an international terrorist.. sure he has orders to do it.. but that doesent absolve them of any and all responability for their actions (again.. nurenberg)

so like I said, they either know what they are fighting for is wrong.. and do it anyway or they think its ok.. either way

[KingBeast 0]

No offence but how the hell would the average afghan taliban know about whatever your talking about when they are totally cut off from the world? (no radio, no tv etc)

Any news would have been by word of mouth and wrapped up in propaganda ie (Allah has shown his mighty wrath blah blah)

Hope im making sense. The Taliban were invovled in their own wars and skirmishes within the country before 90% of us even knew what al queda was and certainly before the WTC bombing. Therefore the taliban soldiers were likely in the faction because A) they were assholes B) It was that or die C) the Taliban were a strong strict islamic group. Very appealing to the average afghan male no doubt

I hope i didnt get anything wrong

[Wobble 1]

so your view is that because the average soldier *might* not know what has happened.. or at least what REALLY happened.. that they should be immune to normal military procedure concerning captured enemy troops?

the bottom line is they are fighting against us.. we captured them.. they may have valuable intellegence that we could use.. as long as the US sticks to the terms set in the geniva convention then they have done nothing wrong..

you think the Taleban would uphold the geneva convention?

[KingBeast 0]

I read on BBC news that the geneva convention does not apply to them as they are not Prisoners Of War. The US classes them as criminals not POWs, something like that

[Wobble 1]

well if they are considered 'criminals' then they have even less rights than a soldier.. or POW..

Im still waiting for ANYONE to name ANYTHING that the US has 'done' to these guys thats any problem..

and not "I bet they are gonna... etc etc.." real factual stuff.

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OBiJuan @ Jan. 14 2002,23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">whats with the crap on everybody accusing or suggesting my country on torture? we aint torturing nobody (snip)<span id='postcolor'>

How naive is that? <span id='postcolor'>

Uhhh, who did the US torture?  Or is this based of a "belief" rather than "evidence"?  Did amnesty international list the US as a torture country?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you sure you wanna hear this?

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nordin dk @ Jan. 15 2002,04:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">whats with the crap on everybody accusing or suggesting my country on torture? we aint torturing nobody (snip)<span id='postcolor'>

How naive is that? <span id='postcolor'>

Uhhh, who did the US torture?  Or is this based of a "belief" rather than "evidence"?  Did amnesty international list the US as a torture country?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you sure you wanna hear this?<span id='postcolor'>

damn!!!

i wanted to be the first to reply

well, yes...USA IS on amnestys list for being a torture country.

mainly for it "allowing" female prisoners being raped by male prison guards.

american laws does not let those women be raped, but american use of the law doesnt punish the rapers...so it is in its way allowing the women get raped....that for that usa is on amnestys list for being a torture country.

[Wobble 1]

thats the biggest pile of horse shit ive ever heard..

american use of the law doesnt punish the rapers...so it is in its way allowing the women get raped

In this country if you rape someone you usually get a sentence about equal to attempted murder.

and 'rape' is not torture.. its rape..

Im looking for info on this right now..

[Wobble 1]

the US is listed for the following:

The death penalty, police brutality, prison and jail conditions and the treatment of refugees,

"treatment of refugees"  this is because we turned back cuban refugees on rafts.. as in we transported them back to cuba... oh how evil.

however there is NO mention of torture on the writeup of the US accept::

The report acknowledged there were areas of concern but stated that torture did not occur except "in aberrational situations and never as a matter of policy".

HOWEVER.. gues who else also appears on their list..

French Republic

Head of state: Jacques Chirac

Head of government: Lionel Jospin

Capital: Paris

Population: 58.6 million

Official language: French

first thing listed::   Torture, ill-treatment and death in

police custody

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Head of state: Queen Elizabeth II

Head of government: Tony Blair

Capital: London

Population: 59 million

Official language: English

Listed: Deaths in custody

Police handling of racist killings

Ill-treatment in prisons

Refugees

Racism

its kinda hard NOT to find a country that is not on AI's shit list for one thing or another...

so dont go trying to make the US out as some vilinous country based on what AI says.. because chances are yours is on the very same shit list.

I could go on and on adding wonderful wholesome countries that are on AI's 'list' but you get the idea..

asking AI if a country is "good" is like asking a vegetarian if beef tasts good.

[Pete 1]

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf....DITIONS

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">•Sexual abuse: rape of an inmate by staff is internationally recognized as a form of torture and violates US federal and state criminal laws, yet reports of rape and other forms of sexual abuse are common in US prisons and jails. Amnesty International is calling for female inmates to be supervised by female staff only, and for victims to be more effectively protected from retaliation if they report abuses.

<span id='postcolor'>

rape is torture, it causes longterm mental harm and a shortterm physical harm (if lucky).

and when done regulary in a prison for example...its pure torture.

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so dont go trying to make the US out as some vilinous country based on what AI says.. because chances are yours is on the very same shit list. <span id='postcolor'>

so, the better of a reason to find out shit of eachothers countries...we learn what bad WE do also.

it is so much more easier to point fingers at others when u know nothing of your own nations wrongdoings.

im finnish, and i live in sweden...ill see what bad we do here (im sure there is atleast a few things)

[Wobble 1]

so be it.. but AI does not list the US as a 'torture' country... as opposed to what you earlier said.

it is so much more easier to point fingers at others when u know nothing of your own nations wrongdoings.

im finnish, and i live in sweden...ill see what bad we do here (im sure there is atleast a few things)thats not the point doofus, the point is that according to AI almost EVERYONE is some evil empire.. the US is on the list.. so is almost every other nation in the world..

im not pointing fingers, the point is that according to AI almost every country is some evil empire.. they do not judge countries realistically..

Im not trying to say "well you do it too" im saying that maby AI is not the greatest place to go for a non-biased opinion on whats right and wrong..

[Wobble 1]

case in point.. Sweden is on their list for one single un-solved muder.. to AI thats enough to be considered a troubled country.

have a peek at it section on Afganistan

Systematic killings.. and it just gets better.

[Wobble 1]

reports of rape and other forms of sexual abuse are common in US prisons and jails

criminals commiting acts on other criminals in a prison hardley makes the US a 'torture' country...

if a prisoner in Britian murders another prisoner does that make britian a 'murder' country??..

[Pete 1]

ur right..but i think AI is better to whine too much than too little, its goal is a utopia..it can never be reached but we should never stop trying.

about that un-solved murder...my dad knew that guy very well, and i know a lot about the case.

sweden is not on the list cos of that murder, it is on the list cos the cover-up the police tried to pull..they lied and falsified documents to seem to be innocent.

police is a goverment institution..so what lower-ranked police does is in a way the goverments responsibilty...but i agree on it being a lil far-fetched.

point is, i didnt say that cos about raped women of my anti-americanism, i said it cos a guy asked if the us was listed at amnesty for torture...and it is.

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Jan. 15 2002,06:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">reports of rape and other forms of sexual abuse are common in US prisons and jails

criminals commiting acts on other criminals in a prison hardley makes the US a 'torture' country...  

if a prisoner in Britian murders another prisoner does that make britian a 'murder' country??..<span id='postcolor'>

not criminals + criminals...its guards + criminals

you dont get on amnestys list unless it is a goverment institute that does it..the army or the police for example.

would you please stop excusing the rapes simply cos it happens in your nation wobble...usa is listed there for the deathpenalty and other things, but that is something we can have different opinions about, some are for death as a penalty, some are against.

..but rape, id like to see the man who is for rape as a punishment.

[Frizbee 0]

All Australian / American / British Nationals etc. working with them should be tried for treason, and then hung.

All Afghanistan etc members of the organisation should be tried for terrorism and executed by hanging.

There should be no lethal injection... that is for civilians. No shooting. That is for Soldiers.

They deserve nothing more than a cowards death by hanging.