Religion

[DarkLight 0]

I don't believe in anything at all... To me we are just a bunch of molecules who live for only a small time and after that it's over... nothing special about it, it's just all over.

Pure chemistry baby

No such thing as god or his love for me. I have no connection to a religion in any kind of way... i think...

I hate it when ppl start saying bullshit like "you'll burn in hell because you say god doesn't exist blahblahblah"

Seriously if that "god" really loves us all sooooo much then i'm sure that he'll respect my opinion and give me a nice afterlife.

I don't just believe something because there's a 2000 year old book about it.

I don't eat those weird things that they give you in church or stuff like that. Don't feel the urge to do so at all. We sometimes have to go to some kinda church with our school. I never pray together with them or eat those weird things (dunno what it's called in english). I've tasted one once and it was pretty damn disgusting. However i have as much respect as possible. As long as they respect my decision, i will respect theirs.

I respect everyone's opinion as long as they respect mine. Someone who clearly disrespects my opinion or starts screaming stuff like "you'll burn in hell" doesn't get any respect from me at all.

I don't see any point in religion at all... sure it helps a lot of people because they have some support by thinking that THEIR god cares about THEM only. But seriously, one sides screams God mit uns! and the other screams God on our side! In the end religion leads to no more than lots of problems like war and conflicts. Everyone thinks that their god loves them and them only. All the other ppl burn in hell or don't deserve to live blahblahblah...

The basic idea is very nice, loving eachother and living with eachother in peace and stuff like that but that just ain't reality. In theory it's all very nice but in reality it just leads to a lot of problems...

Well...

that's my opinion

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is god ominpotent?

I don't understand this question(ominpotent <-don't know what it means sorry)

Quote[/b] ]Does man have free will?

Yes,and this is a proof that God loves man.

Omnipotent = Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

And according to Christianity, god is omnipotent. And as you said, according to Christianity, man has free will.

Those two statements are in logical contradiction. If god is all-powerful, he knows everything; including the future. He knows exactly what you will do, in ten minutes, in one day or in 10 years. If it is possible to know now exactly what happens in the future, then the future is already determined, Then you have no free will. God knows what you will do, before you make a choice. Since your future is already determined, so are the choices you will make and hence you have no free will.

And without any free will, I'm afraid most of Christian dogma falls. If everything is pre-determined, then you can't change in any way; there's no repentance, there's no personal responsibility etc

That's just one simple example of the internal lack of logic of most religions that are based on ancient dogma.

Contradiction ? where ?

According to the majority of faith in Him, God is omnipotent, God knows the beginning and the end of the story.

When a human takes a decision, God knows already what decision he will take. But God will not take the decision for you.

That is where the concept of free will come in.

When a human makes a prayer, God knows already what the human will say, but God likes the prayers as it is by this way the humans express their personnal and private relation with Him.

I see no contradiction.

Saying that you have a choice, means that you can choose your actions and hence the outcome of something. However, if somebody always knows the outcome of your choices, if they are pre-determined, then there's no choice involved.

You stand at a cross-road and wonder if you should go left or right. God already knows that you'll take right, so you never actually had a chance of choosing left. It was pre-determined. From the beginning of time, it was determined that you would take right. Left was never a possibility. Hence you didn't have a free will to choose.

Or even better. You stand at a cross-road and wonder if you should go left or right. So you fall down on your knees and pray to God for guidance. God in his omnipotent capacity comes down from the heavens and says "Sanctuary, I have looked into the future, and you will take the right road". And he really means it and is fully honest (as any omnipotent figure can choose to be). After hearing that, can you decide to take the left road instead?

If you can't, then obviously there's something wrong with your free will. If you can, then there's obviously something wrong with God's ability to see the future. Which is it?

--

These paradoxes are quite similar to construct. Want another? Can God pose a question he can't answer?

[bn880 5]

Personally I think Religion came to be from what was natural and required of the times. I don't believe religion in itself is necessary in many modern Nations.

For me, I am amused to see all the people talking about prayers after the Tsunami for example, when really we needed education and organization, not god to help in that case. Basically, as Robert Buckman puts it, religion is a coping mechanism to prevent you from dying in one way or another (even stress). If you can believe in something greater and larger for the chaos around you, you are less likely to get stressed out and fail in your life.

Just check the stress levels (statistics) of people who are religious and who are not, religion = auto less stress.

A part of the brain has already been identified with the belief of the irrational (irrational portion) on the right front side of your head. People who have increased activity in this section of hte brain are more likely to feel something supernatural is happening and to believe it. People who have damage in this part of their brain seldom believe in anything irrational or unproven.

Cheers.

[cain2001 0]

Friedrich Nitzche , nothing els has to be said.

[sanctuary 19]

You have the choice , God knows the future and so he knows the choice you will make. But that does not mean God forces you to do that choice, but He can if it is His will and that is the important concept about the faith in the One God (and that is a fundamental common point for the 3 religions that are praising Him).

The choice , if God wants it, remains your choice whatever you agree or not Denoir.

Pre-determination is when your choices are already wrote, when you are forced to do one.

Your choices are usually not pre-determinated, they can be when God wants it, in religion term this pre-determination happens when it is subject to a prophecy , but your decision to go from a point A to a point B, unless prophetized is up to you, but God , pre-determinated or not, will know your decision.

God knows your choice because He does not have the same point of view of we have. The point of view of the human is blocked by the time as , being temporal creatures we are submitted to the time.

God point of view is not submitted by time because time is submitted to God.

But this point touching the faith, discussing this with you is pointless because it involves to accept it even if you can't prove it right or wrong.

So because God knows what will be your choice and the result of them does not indicate that He is forcing them on you everytime, and does not contradict at all the concept of free will because you are saying so.

Quote[/b] ]

These paradoxes are quite similar to construct. Want another? Can God pose a question he can't answer?

He can if it is His will, without contradicting anything.

See my answer about the usefullness of the prayer.

Like the question of time, you can't define or submit God to the actual or future scientific knowledges or reasonings for a simple reason : standing by beliefs in Him, God is the source of all, he is not submitted to what He has created, so you can't use His creations like science to submit Him into a definition.

And using what are His creation like science or faith to understand perfectly or define God is just not possible because God is not submitted to both.

Of course, taking the actual or future scientific approach, you think there is no God until proved by the science while i don't need a proof to accept Him because i have a faith in Him. That are our choices and i don't think thoses choices were forced on us.

And that is why a discussion about the nature of God is not possible, between us as you can't prove right or wrong God, while i don't need proof.

Even between people that believe in Him , the nature of God remains out of our human reasonnings reach.

So your point of view and mine will differ because we do not share at all the same view on God, that is one point. But according to my faith both of us will be unable to define completely God whatever discovery, revelation we will find or use.

You can see contradictions, i see none.

You want to prove me something i don't accept on a faith basis ? you can't sorry.

[Harnu 0]

You have the choice , God knows the future and so he knows the choice you will make. But that does not mean God forces you to do that choice...

So we have the free will to select for ourselves an already determined future?

[denoir 0]

You have the choice , God knows the future and so he knows the choice you will make. But that does not mean God forces you to do that choice, but He can if it is His will and that is the important concept about the faith in the One God (and that is a fundamental common point for the 3 religions that are praising Him).

The choice , if God wants it, remains your choice whatever you agree or not Denoir.

Pre-determination is when your choices are already wrote, when you are forced to do one.

Your choices are usually not pre-determinated, they can be when God wants it, in religion term this pre-determination happens when it is subject to a prophecy , but your decision to go from a point A to a point B, unless prophetized is up to you, but God , pre-determinated or not, will know your decision.

No, pre-determination, does not in any way include some artifical forcing. It just states that the effects of some action are determined before the action takes place. And if there is someone or something, divine or not that knows the causal relationship, then there can't be any alternatives ("choice") involved per definition. If god already knows that you'll go from point A to point B, then you have no actual say in the matter - your freedom of choice is just an illusion.

Again, I'd like to give you my example which you avoided:

You stand at a crossroad where you can go left or right. God comes down from heaven and without trying to force you or anything, just informs you that he has forseen that you'll go right. Do you still have a choice of going left? If you don't, where's your free will. If you do, where's god's ability to forsee the future?

Quote[/b] ]But this point touching the faith, discussing this with you is pointless because it involves to accept it even if you can't prove it right or wrong.

That's very convinient for you, but the difference is that unlike you, I do have a leg to stand on. I can show you (as I did) that there's a logical contradiction in your point of view. And sure, it's human logic, but then again that's what your world, including your brain, operates on. Without it you couldn't possibly do things such as using a language - and for instance reading the Bible and learning about your faith. While your god may not be restricted to elementary logic, you are and hence also your understanding of your religion and your faith.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

These paradoxes are quite similar to construct. Want another? Can God pose a question he can't answer?

He can if it is His will, without contradicting anything.

It is contradicting basic logic - which is the foundation of our human existance. Without logic, there's no predictable natural order, no way of communication etc Without a logically consistent universe, you as a human being wouldn't exist. The cells in your body could not function, the neurons in your brain would serve no purpose. It is the fundament of our physical reality - god or no god.

And there is a logical contradiction in that statement. If God can pose a question that he can't answer, then there exists a question that he can't answer - which contradicts the claim of omnipotence. If he can't, then again it shows that there's something he can't do.

Again, your god might be omnipotent and hence have a completely different set of rules - but you are not. Your reality is defined by elementary laws of nature. Even your faith is just a bunch of wetware in your brain, I can cut a few pieces away from your brain stem and you won't have a religious thought ever again. That doesn't mean that your god doesn't exist, but that means that your understanding and faith of him depends on some very earthly things that follow among other things the laws of nature and logic. Hence while logic and physics may be of no relevance for him, they are of relevance for your interactions with him. So a god that dismisses logic or the laws of nature is an irrelevant god, because you can't interact with him.

Quote[/b] ]But according to my faith both of us will be unable to define completely God whatever discovery, revelation we will find or use.

Ok, so you dismiss any arguments based on logic or other earthly methods, and rely completely on your faith. So tell me, what makes you different from a guy who claims that he is Napoleon? What's the difference between "faith" and what we would categorize as "insanity". Both of you make extravagant claims, without providing any proof for it. You are refering to yourself, to your own mind as a claim of validity. Is there any difference, apart from one of the beliefs having a longer history and more followers?

Note that as long as you are not hurting anybody, I'm fully for your right to believe in Jesus or think that you are Napoleon. Unfortunately, organized religion has a tendency to force itself upon others.

Quote[/b] ]You want to prove me something i don't accept on a faith basis ? you can't sorry.

What about the age of the Earth? In the Bible, it's clearly defined as about 6,000 years. Do you believe in that?

How much of your faith is your own, and how much have you been taught? Had you been Indian, do you still think you would be a Christian? How much is it Chruch dogma that defines your faith? Why isn't the earth flat any more? Isn't it about faith? Doesn't it superceede any physical reality? I didn't think that science matters?

[denoir 0]

You have the choice , God knows the future and so he knows the choice you will make. But that does not mean God forces you to do that choice...

So we have the free will to select for ourselves an already determined future?

LOL. Very concisely and well put

[bn880 5]

You can see contradictions, i see none.

You want to prove me something i don't accept on a faith basis ? you can't sorry.

This is like a definition of the irrational part of the brain in action.

You really should read up on this stuff and study yourself, and question how far you take this kind of reasoning.

Telling someone they can not prove xy to you in this way, means you have a system in place to automatically dismiss it. Countering something like that is not easy in most cases.

[nSe7eN 0]

heh I just resigned from church

Lol

Quote[/b] ]Just check the stress levels (statistics) of people who are religious and who are not, religion = auto less stress

When they did that research? Halloween?

It’s inaccurate! , you can’t include everyone in that statistic!

Knowing what going to happen in the future is really boring I really feel sorry for that power or god!

You have the choice , God knows the future and so he knows the choice you will make. But that does not mean God forces you to do that choice...

So we have the free will to select for ourselves an already determined future?

Head Shot!

So that choice is available but god already knows the future and the choice you’ve taken and what going to happen! And I still have the choice to avoid it! Let’s say I did!

Now god is no longer informed about the future?

What I cheated the god?

Or there is no other choice in the first place!

[Donnervogel 0]

So that choice is available but god already knows the future and the choice you’ve taken and what going to happen! And I still have the choice to avoid it! Let’s say I did!

Now god is no longer informed about the future?

What I cheated the god?

Or there is no other choice in the first place!

God knew you would take that choice ;)

It's retarded to argue about this theory (looks like calvin's predestination theory to me)

The theory makes some sense but IMHO it's rubbish. You either belive it or not. There is no way to prove or disprove it as long as you can't prove gods existence or unexistence ;)

[BraTTy 0]

Wow good stuff ! I am surprised at the amount of people with the same beliefs as me.I thought most of the people were still praying.

[nSe7eN 0]

It's retarded to argue about this theory (looks like calvin's predestination theory to me)

For some people what I said makes scene! And I didn’t come across that theory in anyhow!

But for others it’s impossible to understand! There is something effecting there brain functionality!

Maybe from you’re point of view This looks retarded ! But for some other people those are facts!

Also it’s a civilized argument for now so keep it like that!

[bn880 5]

heh I just resigned from church

Lol

Quote[/b] ]Just check the stress levels (statistics) of people who are religious and who are not, religion = auto less stress

When they did that research? Halloween?

It’s inaccurate! , you can’t include everyone in that statistic!

You should really look up the meaning of statistics, they sure as hell can include everyone.

[nSe7eN 0]

Based on what research study or a movie!

Those statistics for area country or the whole world!

Seems there is another ways to make statistics in some countries!

Again you can’t include everyone in everything!

Got a Link for Those statistics?

[BraTTy 0]

I can understand that religious people may have less stress.

Asides from the fact that they live in a simplistic view of life (my opinion only).They surely unload their stresses on God.Do crimes and ask for forgiveness and must be a load off their backs! I take responsibility for my actions.

We don't want to get into the discussion as to why I think people pray to the sky.

[nSe7eN 0]

I can understand that religious people may have less stress.

Asides from the fact that they live in a simplistic view of life (my opinion only).They surely unload their stresses on God.Do crimes and ask for forgiveness and must be a load off their backs!

We don't want to get into the discussion as to why I think people pray to the sky.

You can unload you’re stress by going to some psychologist! At least you are going to find logical answers!

And about forgiveness!

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new pair of boots. Then I realized that the Highfather doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." – Crokus the Thief.

Quote[/b] ]I take responsibility for my actions.

That’s because you are a responsible man!

In some ages the going to kill in the spot and saying that was his destiny!

For other people it’s just a poll no need to be hostile like that, no one trying to convert you or something!

Thought you used for such arguments here!

Sorry for anything seemed to be offensive for you!

[belgerot 33]

I prefer the Pagan religions that our great forefathers followed. There is nothing more noble than that, and I feel strongly about it. I suppose I should say more but there is not much really to say.

[iNeo 0]

I prefer the Pagan religions that our great forefathers followed. There is nothing more noble than that, and I feel strongly about it. I suppose I should say more but there is not much really to say.

Where are you from?

[Necromancer- 0]

Denoir... stop cutting down brains of religious people!

I myself am not religious, though sometimes I do talk in my head to some kind of divine entity... not that it shows any results...

I think the non-pushy religion is all about making the definition of life simple, yet incorrect.

I do not believe that all life was created as described in the Bible and the Quran.

Okey.. then lets interprete the Bible or Quran different.

In both books, Allah or God was described as the maker/builder of all and that he/she came out of nowhere and that he/she created him/herself...

Compare God/Allah with the Big Bang..

What was before the Big Bang?

Scientists claimed that it was caused by an implosion of all matter in the universe which is caused by gravity of all matter pulling together.

Before this, there must be another Big Bang...

I think the Bible and the Quran or whatever religious book is a descendant of another ancient religion that split up resulting in the current religions on this world... They both have similarities written in them.

There is a new religion though...

That mankind was created by an alien race..

I can't remember the name of it.

If so..

then who created those aliens?

I think the universe has always existed and that the Big Bang or Big Implosion is just a phenomenon that has also eternally excisted as the universe. It's a circle with no beginning or end that was just there.

Although this theory is very vague and could be absurd to you...

Think of it..

[iNeo 0]

Compare God/Allah with the Big Bang..

What was before the Big Bang?

I believe they, at least the muslims, say that he always existed.

Quote[/b] ]I think the Bible and the Quran or whatever religious book is a descendant of another ancient religion that split up resulting in the current religions on this world... They both have similarities written in them.

They both originate from Judaism kind of, so there are of course similarities, and it's the same god in all those three religions.

Quote[/b] ]There is a new religion though...

That mankind was created by an alien race..

I can't remember the name of it.

If so..

then who created those aliens?

Evolution? First came one-cell life forms that over a long time developed into different animals etc.

[x582gr51 0]

Well all known life forms may be the results of an alien child game like little chemistry labs for childrens.

Well what we know as evolution is only the large ammount of experiments that have been made.

They left weaklings on earth and took what we can call the perfect being with them.

They probably been laughting of you and me since quite a few billions years (earth) in a some sort of far advanced reality tv shows that is getting boring and are about to wipe us all in an apocalyptic closing episode.

We all primitives lifes forms are all battling each others and creating and enjoying are elimination.

Some Aliens have sympathy for us so they try to induce into us the idea to get together and evolving but it's look like being to complex for us.

Least they buying time for us.

The religion that believe that we are from Aliens is named Raelians, i think.

On my part, i think that religions are good socials networks but what appear to be the comon guide line is that every humans must have the oppotunity to make ppl arround him or her to feel good ( and must take this opportunity ).

In other words: Helping others to help others!

or helping others so they can help others too!

All other (rules) must have been created by mankind in order to manipulate what they call weaklings or retards, ect, ect.

[FireflyPL 0]

I prefer the Pagan religions that our great forefathers followed. There is nothing more noble than that, and I feel strongly about it. I suppose I should say more but there is not much really to say.

Where are you from?

According to chess board in avatar, looks like he s from Poland. Anyway I cant imagine paganic Polish  

[theavonlady 2]

Anyway I cant imagine paganic Polish  

I can.

Potato worshippers.

[FireflyPL 0]

Anyway I cant imagine paganic Polish  

I can.

Well on second thought, Radio Maryja are pretty paganic :P even though they hide their paganic ideas under nationalistic catholicism wision