theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 (bn880 @ Nov. 11 2004,19:19) said: Well okay, hopefully they can show proof of this in court, but eeh, who knows if the guy wasn't framed. Hopefully, an entire country isn't being framed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted November 11, 2004 Blake,Nov. 11 2004,18:16 said: [b said: Quote[/b] ]I see only normal legal procedure. I can't wait untill this happends in your beloved Finland! [b said: Quote[/b] ]The guy was a government contractor, he signed an agreement of secrecy, broke it, got jailed, broke the terms of his release and repeated his previous crime, got arrested again. Really big deal. Again - how many sentences are you going to give a person for a criminal act? What kind of reasonable logic are you using. Are you on drugs or do you oppose individual rights in a modern democracy? [b said: Quote[/b] ]Except it seems to be the case of innocent freedom-loving individual vs. bad evil Israel to some people. Cut out your bullshit sarcasm Blake. You are out of good arguments and in sheer desperation grab silly and childish "Fucking treehuggers" arguments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted November 11, 2004 Yeah, I know, because that has never happened before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 (bn880 @ Nov. 11 2004,19:19) said: I wonder how this guy has classified materials after 18 years in prison, unless they are historical documents... MEH MOH REE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted November 11, 2004 (theavonlady @ Nov. 11 2004,12:23) said: (bn880 @ Nov. 11 2004,19:19) said: I wonder how this guy has classified materials after 18 years in prison, unless they are historical documents... MEH MOH REE Speeek anglish damit, speek anglish. Shit, he must really get rid of that memory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,19:23) said: Again - how many sentences are you going to give a person for a criminal act? When he commits new criminal acts? As many as necessary. If someone robs a bank after previously being sentenced for a prior bank robbery, you're not going to charge him for the repeated crime? I wish it upon Norway! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sanctuary 19 Posted November 11, 2004 Well, there are laws in each countries, some specific are even made with "secret-defense" critical informations in mind. Israel is not an exception. The same situation would have occured in France , if one of my fellow countryman would have done the same, revealing "secret -defense" classified as critical informations he would have been arrested. Whatever we can think the guy is right or not, it would have been the same in each countries i guess, i don't know a governement that will let happily secret-defense informations being revealed without putting the one responsible of the leak in a tribunal . I don't understand why some people there are talking about left or right wings when it comes to this case. Now, after that there is the tribunal part , where if the guy is not guilty he will usually be released , and if he is guilty he will be put in jail, but that part can be different from a country to another. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (theavonlady @ Nov. 11 2004,18:25) said: (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,19:23) said: Again - how many sentences are you going to give a person for a criminal act? When he commits new criminal acts? As many as necessary. If someone robs a bank after previously being sentenced for a prior bank robbery, you're not going to charge him for the repeated crime? I wish it upon Norway! Robbing banks and telling stories that are all familiar to the world is something different don't you think? It goes like this: you told me a secret once which I promised to keep a secret. I couldn't for various reasons keep my mouth shut and told everyone about your little secret. You rightly decided to punish me. After that I still went on singing but you kept on punishing me even if everyone knew your secret by now. Fair? - no! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,19:33) said: Robbing banks and telling stories that are all familiar to the world is something different don't you think? You continue to insist that you are privy to the fact that there are no more beans for Vannunu to spill. Again I ask you to prove it. [b said: Quote[/b] ]It goes like this: you told me a secret once which I promised to keep a secret.I couldn't for various reasons keep my mouth shut and told everyone about your little secret. You rightly decided to punish me. After that I still went on singing but you kept on punishing me even if everyone knew your secret by now. Fair? - no! And again, prove to us all the Vannunu is now being accused of doing nothing more than repeating public knowledge. Prove it. You can't. Ask yourself: what motivates you when you do not have all of the facts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake 0 Posted November 11, 2004 [b said: Quote[/b] ]Robbing banks and telling stories that are all familiar to the world is something different don't you think? From legal viewpoint it is not. Breaking agreements and oaths are crimes too. [b said: Quote[/b] ]What kind of reasonable logic are you using. Are you on drugs or do you oppose individual rights in a modern democracy You seem to confuse law, agreements and democracy here, and very badly. Or do you really think that Norwegian Army does allow it's officers freedom of speech on defence issues? Come on wake up from your dream. Oh and it does not matter if some information is considered 'public knowledge or public speculation' if the government/army has not de-classified them. Of course one can try to make a case against the information being classified in court, that's what he's probably going to do now. Really, what IS the fuss? Â Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,12:26) said: So tell me exronin - do you put people behind bars twice for the same crime in Greece? It wasnt double jeopardy. He was arrested for treason the first time, now he was arrested for talking to the media and telling national secrets. Edit: Whoa, I didnt realize this thread was 5 pages long. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (Blake @ Nov. 11 2004,18:44) said: [b said: Quote[/b] ]From legal viewpoint it is not. Breaking agreements and oaths are crimes too. No kidding! What gave you the impression that I didn't know that in the first place. Have you been reading this thread? Point is that knowledge is by nature differs from physical objects. Secret knowlegde isn't very secret anymore when it's disclosed to everyone. Knowledge doesn't belong to individual who once "owned" it after it is passed on to others. The knowledge is then shared by many! There you are! [b said: Quote[/b] ]You seem to confuse law, agreements and democracy here, and very badly. I think not! Point is that the idea of a democracy is based on a set of principles that legitimizes it. Law that works indiscriminately on each and everyone in a society is a must. Your "agreements" however are in direct opposition to democratic rights - or the rights of the individual. [b said: Quote[/b] ]Or do you really think that Norwegian Army does allow it's officers freedom of speech on defence issues? Of course not, and a very important point to why the norwegian spy Arne Treholt was released was that the knowledge was no longer considered to be critical to Norway and Nato's defence. Apart from that the "wall" was demolished and his health was bad. Mind you I'd still wanted to keep him behind bars because of the treason. However, if he wanted to tell the secrets once more then there would be no point in sending him to jail as the "knowledge" would be outdated. [b said: Quote[/b] ]Come on wake up from your dream. Hm......Well, I know about more significant people than poor humble me that once said "I have a dream" . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (Hit_Sqd_Maximus @ Nov. 11 2004,18:55) said: (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,12:26) said: So tell me exronin - do you put people behind bars twice for the same crime in Greece? It wasnt double jeopardy. He was arrested for treason the first time, now he was arrested for talking to the media and telling national secrets. Edit: Whoa, I didnt realize this thread was 5 pages long. Â Why don't you read the thread instead! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (Sputnik Monroe @ Nov. 11 2004,18:05) said: I'm having trouble seeing what the big deal is. It sounds like some guy broke his probation and thus is going back to jail. Â Â Am I missing something here? Yes. He is not on probation. He is not on parole (as Avon claims). He served his full sentence. However, upon his release the government imposed the following restrictions: - He is not be allowed to leave Israel for 12 months. - He must register his residence, and receive permission from the authorities if he wishes to travel to another city. - He is forbidden from contacting foreigners either by phone or in person including his adoptive parents from the US. - He is forbidden to talk about his work at Dimona with journalists, although he may discuss his kidnapping from Italy. - He may approach but not enter any foreign embassy, and may not go near any port of entry or international boundary. Forbidding him from leaving Israel for 1 year suggests that he might reveal secrets that could still hurt Israel after 18 years, but will no longer do any harm after 19 years. Â Go figure!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,19:01) said: (Hit_Sqd_Maximus @ Nov. 11 2004,18:55) said: (brgnorway @ Nov. 11 2004,12:26) said: So tell me exronin - do you put people behind bars twice for the same crime in Greece? It wasnt double jeopardy. He was arrested for treason the first time, now he was arrested for talking to the media and telling national secrets. Edit: Whoa, I didnt realize this thread was 5 pages long. Â Why don't you read the thread instead! Like I said, I didnt realize the thread was that long. It didnt really change anything though. Most of these political threads begin to repeat themselves after the first or second page. Unless it goes offtopic, then it gets interesting and a mod closes it. ;) I still dont see anything wrong with his arrest. Those demands that Vanunu had to follow was to keep him in the country so if he did talk to the media he would be easily arrested. If they let him leave the country how would they prevent him from telling more secrets? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake 0 Posted November 11, 2004 [b said: Quote[/b] ]Your "agreements" however are in direct opposition to democratic rights - or the rights of the individual. Defence issues are not subject to democracy and freedom of speech as you may know already. It's up to the court now to decide what is public knowledge and what is not. If he told stuff beyond public knowledge, then too bad, he has to serve again. If he just told same stuff as in 1986, release him. But then again he broke the terms of release. I still believe until shown otherwise, this is a legal prodecure and not a political witchhunt. [b said: Quote[/b] ]However, upon his release the government imposed the following restrictions Well too bad, but the current situation is largely of his own making, don't you think? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (Blake @ Nov. 11 2004,19:14) said: [b said: Quote[/b] ]However, upon his release the government imposed the following restrictions Well too bad, but the current situation is largely of his own making, don't you think? The 18 year prison sentence was a situation largely of his own making. Â Further restrictions to his freedom beyond the full completion of his sentence are entirely of Israel's making... and remaking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 (Bernadotte @ Nov. 11 2004,20:33) said: The 18 year prison sentence was a situation largely of his own making. Â Further restrictions to his freedom beyond the full completion of his sentence are entirely of Israel's making... and remaking. That's right. So what? He's a major security risk, out of jail and breaking the terms of his not being detained by the defense ministry? Like wow! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 20 minutes ago, a court judge in Petach Tikva placed Vanunu under house arrest for 7 days. He posted a 10,000 Shekel (about US$2,300) bond not to be in touch with anyone he's been forbidden to contact or is involved in the current investigation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bernadotte 0 Posted November 11, 2004 (theavonlady @ Nov. 11 2004,19:35) said: He's a major security risk... Oh really? Â And how is it that he will no longer be such a major security risk next year when he will be allowed to leave the country again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted November 11, 2004 (Bernadotte @ Nov. 11 2004,20:59) said: (theavonlady @ Nov. 11 2004,19:35) said: He's a major security risk... Oh really? Â And how is it that he will no longer be such a major security risk next year when he will be allowed to leave the country again? Good question. Why not just kiss him goodbye right now? Believe me, if he's absolutely harmless, there's not a soul here who cares to have him sharing in the local oxygen supply. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uziyahu--IDF 0 Posted November 14, 2004 Blame it on the Jews (Jews) Blame it on the Jews (Jews) Whatever you do don't put the blame on you Blame it on the Jews yeah yeah You can blame it on the Jews Get Ooh, ooh (ooh) I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews Yeah, yeah ... Gotta blame it on something Gotta blame it on something ... You can blame it on the Jews Cos the Jews don't mind And the Jews don't care You got to blame it on something (Blame it on the Jews) (Blame it on the Jews) Whatever you do don't put the blame on you Blame it on the Jews yeah, yeah You can blame it on the Jews ... I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews ... (Whatever you do...) (Blame it on the Jews yeah, yeah) x 3 You can blame it on the Jews, blame it on the Jews blame it on the Jews baby (Blame it on the Jews yeah yeah) --Fonee Balonee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raedor 8 Posted November 14, 2004 (Uziyahu--IDF @ Nov. 14 2004,17:31) said: Blame it on the Jews (Jews)Blame it on the Jews (Jews) Whatever you do don't put the blame on you Blame it on the Jews yeah yeah You can blame it on the Jews Get Ooh, ooh (ooh) I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews Yeah, yeah ... Gotta blame it on something Gotta blame it on something ... You can blame it on the Jews Cos the Jews don't mind And the Jews don't care You got to blame it on something (Blame it on the Jews) (Blame it on the Jews) Whatever you do don't put the blame on you Blame it on the Jews yeah, yeah You can blame it on the Jews ... I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews I can't, I can't. I can't, can't stand the Jews ... (Whatever you do...) (Blame it on the Jews yeah, yeah) x 3 You can blame it on the Jews, blame it on the Jews blame it on the Jews baby (Blame it on the Jews yeah yeah) --Fonee Balonee everything ok with you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted November 14, 2004 (raedor @ Nov. 14 2004,18:41) said: everything ok with you? Â Every now and then you stumble upon people weird people - and all it does is to make me laugh! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites