European Politics Thread.

[denoir 0]

About companies needing to be healthy and rich to provide us  with a stable job. Seems to me its more and more about being healthy and rich so they can outsource jobs and make the already rich even richer while firing as much of the employees as possible, labour costs are a pretty big portion of the cost of any product.

Labour costs are high due to the taxes and fees that you have to pay if you employ a person. Cut the taxes and social fees, and you'll see more people hired.

As for outsourcing, it's a big myth. I posted the numbers from France a couple of pages ago. Some 7,000 jobs have been outsourced to the new member states while the increased trade with those states created about 150,000 jobs during the same time period.

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It makes sence to want to cut those but the scale its being done on now kinda makes me wonder where it will end. Looks like we are going to end up with a lot of super cheap crap made in asia with noone here having the money to buy it because most are unemployed as their jobs got outsourced. Sad trend and I feel pretty strongly about it.

It's not a sad trend, it's evolution. The same way nobody works in agriculture in Europe anymore (very few), nobody will work in industry. We just need to adjust the same way we transformed to an industrial society from an agricultural one.

Quote[/b] ]I dont see the American constitution being so hard to read and thats the country that "invented" lawyers

It's no less legalistic than the EU one. It's just shorter and written by brighter people (we're talking about leading minds of the Enlightenment period in the US case. We're talking about bureaucrats in the EU case).

[Supah 0]

Not to mention who in fact pays the bills for all the social security.

I'm really getting tired of how in the more socialist parts of Europe (my country included) companies are vilified as greedy capitalists parasites. Well, guess who pays for all that fancy social security? Guess who is taxed to hell and back so that the government can have some income? Complianies are treated like shit while at the same time they are paying for the entire existence of the country.

This kills of entrepreneurship and I think it is a terrible way to go for Europe. In that respect, the British have a more sane system.

Well, perhaps Supah is right with his "Wie betaalt bepaalt". Perhaps voting power should be weighted to how much taxes you pay

I am not vilifying anyone. I am saying I don't think the current trend of outsourcing is a good idea. To think that an economy drives on its entrepeneurs is pretty old thinking. Its driven by consumers buying stuff. If they have less money to spend they buy less stuff so less orders for companies. In the netherland taxes on profits have been lowered for the 3rd year in a row making it now among the lowest in the European union. Has that boosted our economy? No not at all. Taxed to hell and back .... maybe in sweden but not here.

Quote[/b] ]Well, perhaps Supah is right with his "Wie betaalt bepaalt". Perhaps voting power should be weighted to how much taxes you pay

What ever blows your skirt up. Every citizen should get an equal say in the decision making process.

Quote[/b] ]Labour costs are high due to the taxes and fees that you have to pay if you employ a person. Cut the taxes and social fees, and you'll see more people hired.

How exactly do you plan to pay for welfare and other social benefits then? Or do you just want to do away with those in general?

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As for outsourcing, it's a big myth. I posted the numbers from France a couple of pages ago. Some 7,000 jobs have been outsourced to the new member states while the increased trade with those states created about 150,000 jobs during the same time period.

Tell that to the mass of german unemployed and look at outsourcing to all other countries. Look at the american steel industry, it was largely outsourced to korea in the late 80's. A good number of those people never got back to work. Now ofcourse businesses should make money otherwise their just daycare for adults but I think companies also do well to keep in mind that their employees are also their consumers.

I have no problem with the new memberstates, I think its good that europe does for them what it once did for us. I think that outsourcing to them will end once they reach the same level of personal wealth as we do in the old states. The influx of polish workers that some predicted hasnt materialised and I doubt it will anytime soon. The only new polish "Worker" I have come across personally is a freelance plumber who works for some companies around my area. If we do see migration to the west I think that will end as poland becomes more prosperous. Things will find an equilibrium in those areas. Also them becoming richer will lead to more demand for our products there. Economically it makes perfect sence.

[denoir 0]

I am not vilifying anyone. I am saying I don't think the current trend of outsourcing is a good idea. To think that an economy drives on its entrepeneurs is pretty old  thinking. Its driven by consumers buying stuff. If they have less money to spend they buy less stuff so less orders for companies. In the netherland taxes on profits have been lowered for the 3rd year in a row making it now among the lowest in the European union. Has that boosted our economy? No not at all. Taxed to hell and back .... maybe in sweden but not here.

And where do the consumers get their money?

Of course, corporate taxes arn't the only reason, there are macro-economic factors involved as well. The world is just recovering from the dotcom bubble among other things.

For the Netherlands however it is largely due to the same reason as with Germany and France: Who is going to pay for the social security? It's a big cost and somebody has to carry it. The industry in Europe is becoming more and more automated, requiring fewer people. At the same time, the consumers are behaving against regular market expectancies - they're not buying for instance two cars, even if they can afford it. And it is still the industry that carries the economy,

So basically, there are two choices:

1) Go the British/American way, cut down on social security, give lower pays and use cheap labour rather than machines in industry.

2) Accept that you are at a social and economic threshold and realise that structural problems are unavoidable - until you find a replacement for industry as the backbone of the economy.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Well, perhaps Supah is right with his "Wie betaalt bepaalt". Perhaps voting power should be weighted to how much taxes you pay  

What ever blows your skirt up. Every citizen should get an equal say in the decision making process.

So what happened to "who pays, decides" ?  

Quote[/b] ]I have no problem with the new memberstates, I think its good that europe does for them what it once did for us. I think that outsourcing to them will end once they reach the same level of personal wealth as we do  in the old states. The influx of polish workers that some predicted hasnt materialised and I doubt it will anytime soon. The only new polish "Worker" I have come across personally is a freelance plumber who works for some companies around my area. If we do see migration to the west I think that will end as poland becomes more prosperous. Things will find an equilibrium in those areas. Also them becoming richer will lead to more demand for our products there. Economically it makes perfect sence.

On that I fully agree with you. For a positive example, look at Ireland, that was dirt-poor, but through EU help it is actually the richest/capita country in the EU after Luxemburg. Now they are helping to finance the newest members to the Union so that they can get to the same level as the older members. It will make Europe economically stronger as a unit and it will also help internal trade.

Quote[/b] ]How exactly do you plan to pay for welfare and other social benefits then? Or do you just want to do away with those in general?

Well, that's the big question, isn't it? No, I support a strong social protection. What I am saying however is that there are macro-economic changes taking place and that you can't judge the new system by the old rules.

I don't have a suggestion for a permanent solution. I think that Europe will shift from industry to cultural production, the same way it shifted from agriculture to industry. I don't know when and how though, and I don't know how we'll get through the transition process. It does however need to be balanced before we get there.

[Supah 0]

I am not vilifying anyone. I am saying I don't think the current trend of outsourcing is a good idea. To think that an economy drives on its entrepeneurs is pretty old thinking. Its driven by consumers buying stuff. If they have less money to spend they buy less stuff so less orders for companies. In the netherland taxes on profits have been lowered for the 3rd year in a row making it now among the lowest in the European union. Has that boosted our economy? No not at all. Taxed to hell and back .... maybe in sweden but not here.

And where do the consumers get their money?

Of course, corporate taxes arn't the only reason, there are macro-economic factors involved as well. The world is just recovering from the dotcom bubble among other things.

Its an endless cycle! and if you cut one part of the equation out (the employee/consumer) you damage the system. Its a state of co-dependency, like I said your employee's are also your consumers. What damages one part of it damages all and believe me outsourcing damages the employee.

Quote[/b] ]For the Netherlands however it is largely due to the same reason as with Germany and France: Who is going to pay for the social security? It's a big cost and somebody has to carry it. The industry in Europe is becoming more and more automated, requiring fewer people. At the same time, the consumers are behaving against regular market expectancies - they're not buying for instance two cars, even if they can afford it. And it is still the industry that carries the economy,

So basically, there are two choices:

1) Go the British/American way, cut down on social security, give lower pays and use cheap labour rather than machines in industry.

2) Accept that you are at a social and economic threshold and realise that structural problems are unavoidable - until you find a replacement for industry as the backbone of the economy.

Another big factor is that the baby boomers are now reaching their pension age and are putting the system under strain. With the trend to fewer children per family the burden of feeding the many elderly falls on fewer and fewer shoulders. I think our social safety net (state pension and welfare for the unemployed) are worth the trouble of keeping them. The american way of doing this is not a way I am particularily enthousiastic about. People having to work two jobs and still not making ends meet ....

Quote[/b] ]So what happened to "who pays, decides" ?

When I grew older I realised that not all principles apply all of the time. Just as cold economical calculations shouldn't be applied to human life, I.E. handicapped person is just costing us money as a society so why do we keep them around? We should keep material wealth out of the political system as a quailifying factor.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I have no problem with the new memberstates, I think its good that europe does for them what it once did for us. I think that outsourcing to them will end once they reach the same level of personal wealth as we do in the old states. The influx of polish workers that some predicted hasnt materialised and I doubt it will anytime soon. The only new polish "Worker" I have come across personally is a freelance plumber who works for some companies around my area. If we do see migration to the west I think that will end as poland becomes more prosperous. Things will find an equilibrium in those areas. Also them becoming richer will lead to more demand for our products there. Economically it makes perfect sence.

On that I fully agree with you. For a positive example, look at Ireland, that was dirt-poor, but through EU help it is actually the richest/capita country in the EU after Luxemburg. Now they are helping to finance the newest members to the Union so that they can get to the same level as the older members. It will make Europe economically stronger as a unit and it will also help internal trade.

Its good to agree on things.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]About companies needing to be healthy and rich to provide us  with a stable job. Seems to me its more and more about being healthy and rich so they can outsource jobs and make the already rich even richer while firing as much of the employees as possible, labour costs are a pretty big portion of the cost of any product.

You know I am over it to tackle this silly slogan. The rich wanting to become richer is the motor of our economies. Maybe you forget that companies need investors. Have a look at africa if you want to see what it is like if there is no capital to be invested.

If companies want to outsource employees then what? That is the way the economy goes.

You think they could survive without outsourcing? I can list up at least 25 companies that went bancrupt during the last year only because the unions refused a downsizing process. The final result: Company closed and ALL JOBS WERE LOST. There you got your "employee rights".

There is nothing wrong with loosing your job if there is a new and different company you can go to.

But currently there are no such "new" companies. Why? because investors (those that want to become richer) rather invest into real estate in russia and companies in the US. And you know, THEY WILL BECOME RICHER . But the european employee doesnt profit from it. So sad news for you.

I work with that every day. I see everyday money not being invested in europe but moving outside the EU instead. Investors dont care... they got the money.. they will invest it and it will become more.

Whether you like it or not. But in order to succeed in life you need to earn money. And to earn money you need to ask  those who have it, whether you work in a shop or in an investment bank, it is always the same. If you have nothing to offer to him he wont give it to you but to someone else. Simple as that.

My point is. An employee profits more from a healthy economy than from strict labour laws. Loosing your job isnt necessarily a worst case scenario, not finding another one because the economy is down, THAT is the worst case!

And dont tell me that this would turn into an eternal downfall of social security stating slogans from Michael Moores book about "corporate America". Europe will never become like the US, that would be a very childish assumption.

not meant to sound furious at you.. I am just very unhappy with yesterday election.

[denoir 0]

Its an endless cycle! and if you cut one part of the equation out (the employee/consumer) you damage the system. Its a state of co-dependency, like I said your employee's are also your consumers. What damages one part of it damages all and believe me outsourcing damages the employee.

But then again as you said it is a cycle. Outsourcing means more profits for the company = more taxes to be spent on social protection or it results in cheaper products.

I believe that resources should be allocated in an optimal fashion, meaning that it doesn't make sense to let somebody produce an inferior product at a higher price. Companies and people alike should focus on their core skill. The European Common Agricultural Policy is a typical disastrous project where tons of money is being invested to keep a useless agricultural system in place. Since we can get better and cheaper products from elsewhere. It's tough luck for the few farmers left in Europe, but that's only a short term problem.

Quote[/b] ]Another big factor is that the baby boomers are now reaching their pension age and are putting the system under strain. With the trend to fewer children per family the burden of feeding the many elderly falls on fewer and fewer shoulders. I think our social safety net (state pension and welfare for the unemployed) are worth the trouble of keeping them.

Yes, demographics is a big problem for the future as well. To solve that we either need to encourage Europeans to make babies or open up the borders to non-European immigrants. But that's a completely different issue on its own.

Quote[/b] ]The american way of doing this is not a way I am particularily enthousiastic about. People having to work two jobs and still not making ends meet ....

Absolutely. If you look at the trends however, the US is becoming more European in terms of social security than the other way around. I think there is a strong trend of increased social protection.

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Its good to agree on things.

I don't agree with that

Anyway, if you are going to reject the constitution, do so for the reasons you have mentioned above. I may not agree with your interpretation of the constitution, but that is a matter of differing opinions and the exact reason why a vote is taking place. Just please don't vote "no", because you want to punish your local politicians, or any other issue that is not related to the constitution. That was my concern with France and it is my concern with the Netherlands - that people are voting yes or no for the completely wrong reasons.

[Supah 0]

Quote[/b] ]About companies needing to be healthy and rich to provide us with a stable job. Seems to me its more and more about being healthy and rich so they can outsource jobs and make the already rich even richer while firing as much of the employees as possible, labour costs are a pretty big portion of the cost of any product.

You know I am over it to tackle this silly slogan. The rich wanting to become richer is the motor of our economies. Maybe you forget that companies need investors. Have a look at africa if you want to see what it is like if there is no capital to be invested.

If companies want to outsource employees then what? That is the way the economy goes.

You think they could survive without outsourcing? I can list up at least 25 companies that went bancrupt during the last year only because the unions refused a downsizing process. The final result: Company closed and ALL JOBS WERE LOST. There you got your "employee rights".

There is nothing wrong with loosing your job if there is a new and different company you can go to.

But currently there are no such "new" companies. Why? because investors (those that want to become richer) rather invest into real estate in russia and companies in the US. And you know, THEY WILL BECOME RICHER . But the european employee doesnt profit from it. So sad news for you.

I work with that every day. I see everyday money not being invested in europe but moving outside the EU instead. Investors dont care... they got the money.. they will invest it and it will become more.

Whether you like it or not. But in order to succeed in life you need to earn money. And to earn money you need to ask those who have it, whether you work in a shop or in an investment bank, it is always the same. If you have nothing to offer to him he wont give it to you but to someone else. Simple as that.

My point is. An employee profits more from a healthy economy than from strict labour laws. Loosing your job isnt necessarily a worst case scenario, not finding another one because the economy is down, THAT is the worst case!

Sometimes I think people tend to forget who we are competing with.

All nice and well but I don't see to many people getting new jobs these days after they got fired. I don't agree with you on the rich wanting to get richer being the driving force behind any economy. I strongly believe an economy floats on its consumers consuming.

Forgetting who we are competing with? It's like the president of porsche saying we should all take a wage cut if we want to compete with the chinese (Wonder if "we" includes him, bet it doesn't). If we all earn less who is going to buy your porsches then mister president? It just leaves a smaller portion of society as possible customers.

If competing means losing all that we have built as a society since ww2 I dont think I have such a strong desire to compete with the chinese. To a certain degree I think what applies to new member states in europe also applies to the chinese. Labour costs will rise there to as people demand more security and higher wages. And then its off to the next poor region of the world. Perhaps africa then for the porsche's of this world?

[Necromancer- 0]

All nice and well but I don't see to many people getting new jobs these days after they got fired. I don't agree with you on the rich wanting to get richer being the driving force behind any economy. I strongly believe an economy floats on its consumers consuming.

Forgetting who we are competing with? It's like the president of porsche saying we should all take a wage cut if we want to compete with the chinese (Wonder if "we" includes him, bet it doesn't). If we all earn less who is going to buy your porsches then mister president?  It just leaves a smaller portion of society as possible customers.

If competing means losing all that we have built as a society since ww2 I dont think I have such a strong desire to compete with the chinese. To a certain degree I think what applies to new member states in europe also applies to the chinese. Labour costs will rise there to as people demand more security and higher wages. And then its off to the next poor region of the world. Perhaps africa then for the porsche's of this world?

Well..

it seems we don't have a choice.  

We all understand the "employer/employee" relationship concerning the economy.

Competing or not competing... either way we are thrown in the competition, without having a choice!

I don't like it myself either..

If you want to win the competition, then your only choice is to join the competition.

Unless.. of course.. you want to turn Europe into a Commie union.  

In the end.. we will win the competition.

Even if Africa turned into a new economic tiger.. the investors want to grow and earn more money. I strongly believe that they will invest in the EU in the end, because we already have a stable political system, high quality education, a fine infrastructure and a non-aggressive culture with no tendense of becoming religious terrorists.

[wipman 1]

Hi, about the EU politic i'll like to say that i like to know that those... "frenchs" voted NO, to the EU constitution, that throws the workers rights to the shit, armour the big companys & eliminate some basic rights; looks like that the "frenchs" made it well this time. Now we only need a mayority of countrys or some big (in population number) to force the EU parlament to ratify a more valanced or with a miracle... inspired in the left wing partys ideas; giving a big kick in the balls to those ******' sons of the ****h of big companys like Total-Fina, for example, or Repsol-YPF. Let's cu

[Donnervogel 0]

lol wipman. Thanks to the rejected constitution you can force the EU parliament to do whatever you like it still won't have any effect because the EU parliament has no real powers. Besides the left is quite strong in the EU parliament. But that doesn't help much as the comission and the political leaders of the member states have all the legislative power. The constitution would have increased the power of the parliament. Meaning without the constitution you as a normal citizen have almost no influence on EU politics.

Also the constitution wouldn't eliminate any basic rights you have in your national constitutions. The EU constitution would not make the spanish constitution obsolete. The EU constitution is more like the common ideas of all EU nations. It doesn't say that single memeber states can't go further though. Therefore you can only have a minimal agreement on social security in the EU constitution. Still your nation can keep or extend it's better social system if it likes (and can finance it).

[turms 0]

donnervogel: Thats a fact!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Hi, about the EU politic i'll like to say that i like to know that those... "frenchs" voted NO, to the EU constitution, that throws the workers rights to the shit, armour the big companys & eliminate some basic rights; looks like that the "frenchs" made it well this time. Now we only need a mayority of countrys or some big (in population number) to force the EU parlament to ratify a more valanced or with a miracle... inspired in the left wing partys ideas; giving a big kick in the balls to those ******' sons of the ****h of big companys like Total-Fina, for example, or Repsol-YPF. Let's cu

People like you make me understand why Denoir once said:

"Democracy isnt necessarily the best political system"

[Apollo 0]

The thought i have with the French referendum result is that people more voted against Chirac than really on the EU constitution issue.

As Europe is really a complex instution ,i wouldn't be surprized if Most french ,or for that matter most people of any European member nation ,didn't know what the EU constituion is mostly about.Personally i know i dont understand it for some parts neither ,and AFAIk statistics show that over Europe in general people don't know much about it's institutions and workings.

Therefore i was not really a pro to referendum's about this constitution.

I do not live far from the French border and often travel trough France ,My brother is a truck driver and is there a lot to ,were both interrested in politics and we like to talk about French politics because it's quite different in it's politics than most other country's. (France being the bastion of the Republic and its value's)

From what we heard of most French ,Chirac is perceived as a corrupt politician ,a lie'r ,deffinatly some story's i heard from his day's in Paris leave that impression ,like using city funds to make purchases for their intented private use.

A pitty that many Western European political establishments are not very much liked by their own poppulace ,or for that matter that in so many European country's the political establishment is quite corrupt ,i know Belgium is not that much better than France ,and i deffinatly know Italy is terrible.

[kavoven 4]

Concerning France:

Sounds like there could be earlier votes as well like in Germany, because of the EU - Constitution - Vote. (Just noticed it in an the online version of a german newspaper, although they said that only 36 % or so of the French want earlier votes)

[der bastler 0]

As Europe is really a complex instution ,i wouldn't be surprized if Most french ,or for that matter most people of any European member nation ,didn't know what the EU constituion is mostly about.

Then why for heaven's sake did they not inform the people? Every small election is accompanied by a massive PR campaign, but the EU constitution... They said it was something big, something important -- but left the voter alone with a thick brick of paper containing hundreds of articles.

Definitely something's going wrong. And not only in the process of pushing software patents through the political institutions (i.e. disfranchisement of parliament by council/commission, which btw wouldn't be changed by this constitution).

[baff 0]

Corruption

The EU is about big dinners for EU employee's.

And EU jobs for politicians friends.

It's about the opinions and moralities of a minority being enforced on the majority.

Each year it gets bigger. Each year it costs more. Each year it makes new legislation for people who don't want it and charges them for the privilage.

As for the EU parliament having no real powers....... it has the power to take your politicians out for Å1,000 pound meals in exotic restaurents, all over the world, every day of the week as long as they agree to go along with EU policies.

You can't stop them. If the people of France vote that they do not want this constitution, then next time, they won't be offered that vote. The constitution will return in a different format.

Fanatastic. How democratic. If this is democracy, I don't want it.

The people at the EU will continue to legislate to justify their paychecks, the politicians will continue to listen to them over expensive meals, and be rewarded with well paid EU jobs if they sign their respective nations up for each new policy.

The EU does not serve the people. It serves itself.

The only thing that will stop the EU is armed revolution.

Kill them all. To a man.

In the end they will ride the system until it bucks them.

Integration

The more you integrate, the more you compromise those things that you love and that made you successful.

The diversity of being that makes Europe a fascinating and beautiful convergence of individual cultures is smothered. Where before disease, wars and social disorder could be better confined within national boundaries and language groups, they are now better enabled to spread freely amongst us all across open borders with mutual defence policies and international languages.

If you wish to preserve your social model above all else, don't dilute it with the social models of others that do not agree with your lifestyle, morality or social conscience.

If you wish to preserve your economy don't dilute your control over it with shared currency, taxation or accept limits on your workforce placed on you by your neighbour.

Independance is about strength and self reliance.

Don't just vote no to the constitution, vote no to the EU.

The Englishman.

Here in England most of the nations wealth is created from banking.

We don't sell anything in the EU.

No one buys our beef, no one buys our cars.

What difference does it make to us if we don't pay EU taxes or get a vote in EU policy?

If they don't make their products to our standards (as voted on only by ourselves) we won't buy them.

It's not in my favour for the EU to vote on what standards are applicable in my country. I'm already paying for my own government to do that.

And since no one buys my gear it makes absolutely no difference what standards apply to the rest of the EU.

We have free trade agreements with all the members of EU already.

Have done for years.

They still don't buy our products. Whats the point?

We don't want a foreign social model, we are very proud of our own homegrown one.

And if we do want to change it, (we are all europhiles and frequently learn new tricks from those highly civilised neighbours of ours), we can just copy them.

No one is stopping us.

The French and Germans don't mind if we mimic their health services to improve our own standard of living.

Likewise they are happy to sell me cars and wines as long as I have internationally recognised money to pay for them.

In fact, since we have no constitution at all, we like to beleive that we are comparatively speedy when it comes to changing things and reform. (might not be true, but it's a comforting thought).

A constitution is alien to the English way of doing things.

A militarily United Europe with a centralised government is everything we have fought to prevent for the last 100 years at great cost to both humanity, society and our (formerly immense) national wealth.

Twice in the last hundred years we gave it all up to prevent this. Twice again in the hundred before that.

How many more times must we make the sacrifice to live in peace, free from the interference of others?

Somebody save us all. Kill the lot of those EU clowns now.

Leeches all.

[Akira 0]

woah

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

baff- To be honest i had to google your post to check if it was cut and pasted from UKIP HQ.

Whilst i share some or even many of your concerns about the EU (corruption, waste, totally unnecessary and/or ill thought out legislation etc) your post exaggerates, misrepresents and has a fair few innaccuracies (eg its not true that we dont sell anything to the EU, most of our trade is with EU member states) but ill be responding to everything here in more detail probably tommorrow.

Suffice to say that leaving the EU isnt a very realistic option (hence even the euroskeptic tories tend to recoil from it), it would be hugely costly and damaging to the country (believe it or not) and we would still have to obey EU rules if we wanted to trade (like Norway). Yes, so is continued membership costly (its just one of those things). Thats why Britain should commit itself more fully to the EU, and the public get involved, so that we can push for reform and a better overall system from a strong base. We could end up with a degree of power in the Blair presidency if the government manages to make alliances with the new eastern members.

Either we can leave the EU, shoot off lame rhetoric from the Sun from the sidelines, or fight the ideological and methodological battle for europe.

So the French said non. Zut Alors- who'd a thought it! Next it will be the Dutch. If they say yes ill eat my alphabet pasta based words.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Baff - you didnt even bother to study what the EU is about. You just copy the blah blah from you miserable british newspapers and you just repeat the same old british gossip you heard in a pub.

Why do you even bother posting that nonesense? This prejudice is nothing new.. we heard it a million times before. Repeating it doesnt make it more "true".

"1 World Cup and 2 World Wars .... dudaa.... dudaa"

Thats your favourite song I guess!

[Necromancer- 0]

woah  

It seems we Euro's are impressing the Americans.

I have a strong believe that the Dutch government will say "yes", no matter the outcome of the referendum.

[SPQR 0]

A militarily United Europe with a centralised government is everything we have fought to prevent for the last 100 years at great cost to both humanity, society and our (formerly immense) national wealth.

Even I do agree with some points, I do remember that...

100 years ago, Great Britain was an empire living on other nations.

France, too, used to be an empire 100 years ago

Thus two mices thinking they are still lions

......

About the referendum and french answer, I'll keep my answer until each country has express itself

[denoir 0]

The idea that a free trade agreement and common market is enough can be easily invalidated if you just look back a bit.

The European Common Market has existed since 1957 with the foundation of the European Economic Community. And sure enough, no customs, free trade etc was all nice. But it only made an internal difference - and in a closed system, it's just a question of where you are shuffling the money. There is no net difference.

The point where Europe became internationally an economic force to deal with, was after the Maastricht and Nice treaties came into effect. A common political foundation was needed.

It's a simple fact of life that every individual European country is too small to be a significant player in the global market. Only with our resources put together do we stand any chance of being competitive internationally. To give an example, no single European country has the resources for a company like Airbus. It had to be a joint project. And only when it actually got full political backing did it become an economic success.

There are a few rather simple reasons for this. First of all, large scale trade is more about politics than about economics. Large trade agreements and commercial deals are almost always reciprocal ("You buy our planes and we'll grant you a loan and upgrade your telecom system"). This does not involve just one company, but the whole industrial spectrum. No single European country is able to offer that on its own.

The second reason is social and economic equalization that is needed. If one country has no social protection and no taxes, there will be an imbalance in the migration of companies and people. For the economic part to fully work, the group must consist of equals.

The third reason is that the same laws must apply across the group. This again is needed to balance things. If one member has no environmental laws and no labour laws, the conditions for real free market competition will be ruined.

These are economic necessities. A political equivalent would be for instance a coherent European foreign policy. Today it doesn't exist and beyond its economic influence, it makes Europe pretty much irrelevant in international politics. A good example is the division over the Iraq war.

Finally we have the joint defence issue, which is really just a question of economy. Europe spends more money on the military than the US, but we are orders of magnitude weaker. It's simply because the we have 25x air forces, 25x armies etc There is an incredible amount of redundancies, which is just a huge waste of money. We could save a lot of cash by doing things only once, rather than 25 times.

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ] Europe spends more money on the military than the US

Nah , I don't agree with ya mate , in spite of the fact that europ has more than 25 armies we still don't spend more than the US government.

btw I think that a lot of french people're affraid that turkey'd join the EU,moreover this idea's mainly supported by Le Pen.

It seems that the french "Non" would occur some economical crisis in the future.

In my opinion I think that our government haven't explained us pretty well the main bases of this constitution.

I hope that the incoming referendum in the other countries'd be positive , especially in Netherland

Regards

Thunderbird84

[baff 0]

Sounds good John Wayne, but what do we actually trade with Norway?

(I'd be intrested to hear some suggestions of actual British products on sale in Norway today. I'm sure there must be some.)

Further to this the only people who would be subject to EU regulations would be those attempting to export to the EU.

As opposed to now, where everybody is regulated by the EU despite only about of 10% of our total trade going there. (80% of our trade is domestic only and doesn't benefit from EU regulation compliance at all).

So yes, we would lose our vote in their regulations, but they would lose their vote in ours. This would be of great benefit to British business as a whole, but not so good for our esteemed exporters to Norway in particular.

Our tax bill with the EU is in billions. As is our compliance bill.

Most of the people contributing towards those bills in no way financially benefit form this. It is a poor investment for all but an extreme minority of the population.

Half of our foreign trade maybe with the EU, but we're no longer a particularly industrial country. Half of our export trade doesn't actually amount to all that much. We don't make net profit by participating.

Trade isn't where we (as a nation) make our money.

Banking and services are.

As for not studying what the EU is about, I'm well aware of what the EU is about, I just don't see it as advantageous to me for my particular country to be a part of it.

Imagine this (oft mentioned) scenario where Europe now acts as a single entity and gangs together to have some trade clout to the point where it is able and willing to stand up against the U.S. as a trade block (and even a military and politcal one).

I'm English. We're the largest foreign investors of America in the world.

Everybody here's pension is invested in American business.

The last thing the British economy needs is for American trade to be limited or placed in check.

About half of my personal wealth is invested in the U.S. (and I have other investments in China for example too)

As soon as you talk about a united economic front, you lose my intrest.

In fact, you threaten to become a direct financial hinderance.

As nations we have conflicts of intrest, not only geopolitically, but economically. It's all linked.

I'm sure your aware of the theory that the Iraq war was all about oil. I subscribe to that theory.

Someone made a great point about the need to have similar social laws so that we all trade evenly on a fair footing.

But I don't see that it is fair for anyone to say I am not allowed to work as hard as I like if I want to get rich.

Once again you've lost my intrest. I don't want that.

And even if I did, Europe is not an isolated bubble that only trades within it's own borders. It is part of a global market. Unless you agree those same social laws with the enitre planet, all you do is cripple everyone in Europe for no net gain.

If you want to do that, good for you. Don't expect the rest of us to join in.

(It is my personal opinion that that is a recipe for disaster not only for my own country but also for anyother country participating in global trade or investment. However I also understand that it is not my place to lecture other societies about what is best for them. Thats best for me. Thats where I should leave it).

Some people are willing to work night and day to get rich or to escape from the ghetto. Social mobility is a much loved tenet of our society. We believe that hard work should be rewarded, and that even if you start life as a lowly toilet cleaner our society provides you with the oportunity to become a millionaire.

I apologise to you if you find my opinion prejudice or if it upsets you that I don't share your vision. I am obviously prejudice in my own favour. This is only natural.

[denoir 0]

Sounds good John Wayne, but what do we actually trade with Norway?

(I'd be intrested to hear some suggestions of actual British products on sale in Norway today. I'm sure there must be some.)

What he was refering to is how Norway, that is not an EU member gets screwed by trade rules that the EU chooses to impose. Most recently, to make British fishermen happy additional customs and fees were slapped on Norwegian fish. Norway couldn't do anyhting but accept it as it can't afford to take reciprocal action.

And that's only half the story. Norway also suffers from tarriffs imposed by for instance the US, which their EU counterparts don't have to pay. It's again simply a question of size. Norway is powerless against a much larger economy.

Quote[/b] ]Our tax bill with the EU is in billions. As is our compliance bill.

Most of the people contributing towards those bills in no way financially benefit form this. It is a poor investment for all but an extreme minority of the population.

The benefits in terms because of free trade, less tarrifs internationally and a strong joint representation of economic interests are orders of magnitude higher.

Quote[/b] ]Half of our foreign trade maybe with the EU, but we're no longer a particularly industrial country. Half of our export trade doesn't actually amount to all that much. We don't make net profit by participating.

Å108 bn in exports and Å135 bn in imports to be exact.

(Source: http://www.uktradeinfo.com/freedata/euAnn.xls?)

Quote[/b] ]Trade isn't where we (as a nation) make our money.

Banking and services are.

Banking and services for whom? Certainly not the US - they have their own banking and financial services. Again, Britain is a relevant economic hub in Europe, but not too relevant in the world.

Quote[/b] ]I'm English. We're the largest foreign investors of America in the world.

No, you are the sixth largest. The largest is Canada, followed by Mexico, followd by China, followed by Japan, followed by Germany, followed by the UK, followed by South Korea, followed by France...

(Source: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/2005/03/balance.html)

As seen from the UK, trade with the EU block corresponds to 60% of the total. Trade with the US corrsponds to 8% of the total. (Source: http://www.uktradeinfo.com/freedata/Ctry0305.xls?)