USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

In the US system is there anything to hold Bush accountable once he has left office?  I cant help feeling he needs a trial of somesort,  to figure out whether he just gets blamed alot or whether hes the one who deserves to be on 'Stolypin's Necktie'.

[Duke 0]

There are things about him that i do not like, but also things that I like. However, alot of people seem to think we should have the perfect Govt and/or the perfect President where everything the people want, they get. People always need things to gripe about, whether right or wrong.

[-Snafu- 78]

@ Duke - Of course people are going to gripe, or do you not beleive in free speech as you have clearly displayed yourself as an American who has a strident beleif in the constitution?

A government cannot satisfy everyone in the country, it is impossible, some people will like some of his policies and some will not, it's that simple. People have free speech they can complain or praise Bush's policies if they want.

Try and have an open mind to people's arguments instead of hearing them out and then shitting on their point of view with your attitude.

[MR_TROUBLE 0]

I'm an American. I love Apple pie. I played baseball as a kid. I'm proud of the fact that so many good things came out of America...like rock 'n' roll. I'm proud of the fact that our country was built by immigrants from all over the world.

I have served and continue to serve in a domestic capacity and will protect my country against any threat to our freedoms and ideals.

I'm not a pacifist. I believe in a strong military and using it when necessary. Afghanistan is a righteous fight. Iraq is not.

9/11 was a wake up call for us, and the world. After we were attacked, the whole world was on our side. Even Iranians were in the streets with flags and candles in solidarity with us.

People all over the world love America and what we have stood for. They like Americans as people. Many still remember the American tanks and troops that rolled into France and liberated them from the Germans.

But WW2 was the last time we actually fought for real freedom for other people and ourselves. It was the last time that dying for your country had any real purpose and validity to it.

George Bush and his neoconservative gang, took the unity that the tragedy of 9/11 brought, and turned the world against us. He used 9/11 as justification to invade Iraq even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

With his misguided war-mongering policies he dragged the American flag, a flag that a lot of people died for over the past 200 yrs of our country's history, through the mud.

Thanks George. Thanks Republicans. Thanks Conservatives. Thanks American citizens who voted for Bush not only once but twice you fking idiots.

Thanks for ruining my country's name. Thanks for getting a lot of people killed for nothing. Thanks for a lack of oversight and fked up policies that led to things like Haditha and Abu Gharaib. Thanks for showing the Iraqis that we can be just as brutal and kill innocent people just as effectively as Saddam did. Thanks for taking the visions and ideals my country was founded upon and taking a big royal shit on them. Thanks for making it virtually unsafe for Americans to travel abroad.

[Duke 0]

I respect other opinions, and beliefs. That is what our country is about and our Freedom after all. But, There is a limit to what people do or say. I mean, putting swastikas on pictures of Bush and calling him to be like Hitler, is obscure. If you could only see, for yourself what Hitler and his henchmen were trully like. And see for yourself with your own very eyes what Bush is, You could see quite the difference. Bush is a strong believer in The American Way of Life. he is strong in belief of our Rights & Freedom. He doesn't insult our troops, he compliments our troops every day. he admitted many things were wrong about Iraq. But can we just leave something that we started? no. Also, WWII was the last time we were freeing a foreign people? Where is your head? During Korea, we were stopping North Korea, from completely taking the South. During Vietnam, we were stopping the North Vietnamese Army, and the supported militias/VC Guerrillas from completely taking the South. South Vietnam along with South Korea wanted nothing to do with the North of both countries. They wanted our help and they wanted the Freedom. They never wanted the Communist way of life. Since the Korean War, we were still dealing with North Korea, right on up till the end of Vietnam. North Koreans even during Vietnam never thought of hopping the border, coming into Souel, hijacking a kimpshe bus, and using our weapons to mow down civilians in the streets, and then hurrying across the border before the rok soldiers could react. Why were we there during the Vietnam War? We couldnt fire back at the North Koreans even when our compounds were attacked. The reason we were never to officially fire at the North Koreans when they came across the border to attack civilians or anyone in the South is, We weren't "directly endanger". Money got politicians to shove the Geneva Convention up our asses and use it as a weapon against us. Anyways... Yeah maybe we don't have many conflicts that we were directly fighting for our own freedom, but we have been in quite a few where we were liberating an oppressed people. Point out another country on this shithole of an Earth, that specifically had a perfect reason for every War that they have enguaged in.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

im forced to agree with your first point duke

[Baff1 0]

"He has opened up concentration camps for Muslims."

---------------------------------------------------

 what the fuck?

Well said.  

I'm sure the Cuban political prisoners would gladly give a finger or toe to trade palces with those in Guantánamo.  

Of course Cindy is only concerned about the ones that are well fed and visited by diplomats and "health" organizations to make sure they are well treated.

And what about the ones that are not allowed to be visited?

And no prisoners from around the world are not likely to all be queuing up for American camps.

[Baff1 0]

I respect other opinions, and beliefs. That is what our country is about and our Freedom after all. But, There is a limit to what people do or say. I mean, putting swastikas on pictures of Bush and calling him to be like Hitler, is obscure. If you could only see, for yourself what Hitler and his henchmen were trully like. And see for yourself with your own very eyes what Bush is, You could see quite the difference.

Are you suggesting that you met Hitler and his henchmen?

Are you suggesting you have met Bush and his henchmen?

You saw all this for yourself with your very own eyes?

Somehow I find that hard to believe.

[Duke 0]

No to b honest i have not. BUT, have you seen any of that for your own eyes? only those that have and have the experience of such things, can really judge what they want. people that were born and lived all their life with such freedoms, naturally can never understand what those kind of lives are like. I for one have watched many documentaries, about such things. Some people don't even believe the Holocaust happened, can people be that retarded? "Iran's Leader"

[billybob2002 0]

I take a break from this thread and someone posts a vile post comparing the President of the United States and the American military to the Third Reich. Honestly, Baff1, are you stupid or something? Or, are you trying to troll? Duke do not feed him no more because his comparison is straight bullshit.

I do not like being blunt but I think Buff1 has crossed the line.

Anyway, to get back on-topic, it seems Ron Paul might run for the Republican nomination for the Presidency since he filed papers for a exploratory committee. I don't think he we win the nomination because he is too libertarian for his party. Furthermore, he is not apart of the Republican establishment. However, if he ran has an independent, he might be Ross Perot v2 which is bad news for the Republicans and good news for the Democrats.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

BUZZARD @ Jan. 12 2007,11:26)]I sincerely don't understand this Bush administration... Now they want to send in 21,500 troops, and expect all problems to be solved by November 2007? The iraqui government can't even secure whatsoever with the international forces present in Iraq (most embarassing are the cases in which terrorists disguise themselves as governmental forces) - and no government has so far been able to stop sectarian violence through imposition of it's own will. Since it is known that foreign terrorist organizations are involved in the violence, and acknowledging that even the U.S. hasn't been able to completely erradicate any such organization, I think  the U.S. is finally drawing the line of retreat, timewise, leaving the iraquis to their own fate - but why send in more troops now? I just don't get it...  

I had the very same thoughts of "what the hell?"

So I emailed a cousin that works in Washington pleading for some insight. The phone call I got was quite interesting.

While she is not privy to any special information that I know of, keeping on top of this stuff is her job so I figured maybe she would have something to say. Her take on the matter is the folowing:

1.) In a desperate attempt to salvage something out of nothing Bush is sending most of the troops to create a state of martial law in the Bagdad area. If there is success in pushing out, and keeping out, the "troublemakers" then the same thing will be tried in the Ambar province.

As far as the number of troops being sent, this is likely a number based solely on the thinking of "heres a number we could get away with." The reality being more would be required for the second stage and more likely allowed should there be an initial success.

2.) If success is not achieved to some unknown standard, US forces will not pull out of Iraq, but will instead take position in the North where they can both provide security for the Kurds and launch raids if necessary.

So it is essentially a large gamble. Even worse its a gamble whose success is dependent on so many factors, some controlable some not. For instance this whole concept of new "rules of engagement." Yes we certainly do need to take the gloves off/untie the soldiers hands from behind their backs...but those are only words, and any willingness to get ugly is doubtful in my opinion.

In closing, it seems to be a "last chance effort" with an unkown outcome. If success or failure was more firmly placed in the hands of the military rather than in the muddy world of politics I would see some shred of hope. However the fallout from that would be massive.

[Duke 0]

Ah, sometimes it can't be helped billybob. i know where you're coming from 100%. Cheers

[walker 0]

Hi All

There is a separate Iraq thread   so some of the above perhaps needs to be there.

Many issues have been raised recently that affect US politics:

And many of them come under the listing of:

TBA's failure in Iraq

* The paper tiger affect of TBA's failures in Iraq

* The "Boy who cried wolf" effect of TBA's failures in Iraq

* The damage done to US standing in the world by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The damage done to the US economy by all the treasure wasted by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The massive loss of life both Iraqi and coalition due to TBA's failures in Iraq

* The destruction of a country, Iraq by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The increased level of terrorism in the world due to TBA's failures in Iraq

* The re-emergence of Al Quaida and the Taliban due to the distraction and of two front war caused by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The increased levels of corruption in US society (Haliburton and KBR, anyone) due to TBA's failures in Iraq

* The choice to not put in enough troops in the first place in in Iraq despite Generals being willing to resign is clearly one of TBA's failures in Iraq

* The decision not to increase the troop levels when asked later on in Iraq to by the generals who were sacked or resigned for saying it is clearly one of TBA's failures in Iraq

* And now we have too little too late which I fear will be yet another of TBA's failures in Iraq

There is a solution though.

The one defense democracies have against corrupt and despicable regimes. In a democracy you can vote them out which is what the US voters did, and then you can investigate them send them to trial and if found guilty, fine them jail them and impeach them.

It is clearly the time to start the investigations of TBA, just as Saddam was investigated and tried so too can TBA be investigated and tried.

It will show those in Iraq that in a democracy you are never too high to be brought to book for your failures. It will show them that when people lie and are corrupt they will suffer the consequences.

The Jeff Gannon Affair

The recent revelations in the Jeff Gannon case provide one avenue for investigation of TBA.

The Secret Service records show Jeff Gannon had access to the White House months before the fake virtual News Agency Talon was formed.

In fact the Secret Service records show Jeff Gannon was over-nighting at the White House.

As at the time Jeff Gannnon first visited the White House he was still listed on his own website as a $200.00 a night gay prostitute, it seems perfectly reasonable in the light of the obvious security implications to investigate: who gave Gannon the Invitations to the White House then and why?

Also since the secret service records show Jeff Gannon over-nighting at the White House, it seems reasonable to ask in who's bed did Jeff Gannon sleep when the newly released Secret Service records show he was at the White House over night.

http://rawstory.rawprint.com/0405/guckert_access_a1.php

Also of relevance is how Jeff Gannon managed to avoid the usual two to three weeks of security checks and how he managed to get in under a false name in the first place.

I do not think it will be the last or even the first investigation in to misconduct of those in TBA.

The NeoConMen traitors in TBA

Libby is due to go to trial in the traitorous outing of the brave CIA Non Official Cover(NOC) Agent Valerie Wilson nee Plame and the damage done to US intelligence on Iranian nuclear development when it was most needed.

Valerie Wilson nee Plame was in charge of the CIA's middle east WMD desk and had been working in the field their for many years. So all her contacts and agents were probably killed or imprisoned and tortured or are on the run due to the actions of the traitors involved. They need to be found and brought to book.

Time to list the legal cases against TBA

There are several other obvious cases for bringing members of TBA to trial it is time perhaps to list them and for those investigations to begin too.

Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

I mean, putting swastikas on pictures of Bush and calling him to be like Hitler, is obscure. If you could only see, for yourself what Hitler and his henchmen were trully like. And see for yourself with your own very eyes what Bush is, You could see quite the difference.

Considering that European members here had grand parents that were suffering from Nazis I say they see things a little more upfront.

Quote[/b] ]Bush is a strong believer in The American Way of Life. he is strong in belief of our Rights & Freedom. He doesn't insult our troops, he compliments our troops every day. he admitted many things were wrong about Iraq. But can we just leave something that we started? no.

By not listening to numberous generals, he insulted troops. If Shinseki's words were followed we would be out of Iraq faster or aleady out. Admitting mistake is not an excuse for screwing things up. Fixing it is and with his current direction he is not going to fix. The best we can hope for is low level secular violence. 2 years from now, it is more likely that US will pull out amid civil war in Iraq, leaving the current Iraqi government vulnerable.

Quote[/b] ]Also, WWII was the last time we were freeing a foreign people? Where is your head? During Korea, we were stopping North Korea, from completely taking the South. During Vietnam, we were stopping the North Vietnamese Army, and the supported militias/VC Guerrillas from completely taking the South. South Vietnam along with South Korea wanted nothing to do with the North of both countries. They wanted our help and they wanted the Freedom. They never wanted the Communist way of life. Since the Korean War, we were still dealing with North Korea, right on up till the end of Vietnam.

This section alone tells what a misinformed chest thumper you are. Let's start with beginning of the Korean war. US had troops stationed in Korea south of 38th parallel after Japan surrendered. And a few months before the Korean war, US pulled everyone out of S.Korea following doctrine that US's interest stops at Japan, and implicitly implying that Korean peninsula is not a major place. Only after Korean war erupted, did US realize it's mistake and sent troops under UN flag.

Quote[/b] ]North Koreans even during Vietnam never thought of hopping the border, coming into Souel, hijacking a kimpshe bus, and using our weapons to mow down civilians in the streets, and then hurrying across the border before the rok soldiers could react. Why were we there during the Vietnam War? We couldnt fire back at the North Koreans even when our compounds were attacked. The reason we were never to officially fire at the North Koreans when they came across the border to attack civilians or anyone in the South is, We weren't "directly endanger".

I guess you are trying to refer to Silmido incident, when S.Korean governement announced that North Koreans infiltrated through west coast and car jacked, only to be stopped before getting to Seoul. Considering you can't even spell Seoul I bet you don't know the real story behind it. They were S.Korean soldiers training for assasination mission of N.Korea's Kim IlSung. The decision later came and they were to be disbanded. The frustration led them to revolt in Silmido Island where they were training for nearly 2yrs and they carjacked a bus. Fortunately they were stopped, but there was a confusion after one of carjacker's hand grenade blew up and that's how the whole thing went down.

When any post in S.Korea, especially along DMZ gets fired upon they fire back. But I guess the Bridge of No return is something that gets quite confusing.

Both South and North Korea wanted to unite, but both wanted in their own terms, and the political powers over their head didn't want it. Soviets and US were dealing Korean issues as an extension of Coldwar chess. And that's how Vietnam was viewed. There were less noble cause then you'd like to beleive. It was coldwar politics.

Quote[/b] ]Money got politicians to shove the Geneva Convention up our asses and use it as a weapon against us.

Sure, so US soldiers captured in war can be treated as harshly as enemy wishes. Maybe that's why DoD decided not to show pictures of Iraqi soldiers surrendering after Jessica Lynch's unit was captured and interviewed.

Quote[/b] ]Anyways... Yeah maybe we don't have many conflicts that we were directly fighting for our own freedom, but we have been in quite a few where we were liberating an oppressed people.

And same amount of oppression. Chile is a good example, along with many Central and South American countries where US had their hands in changing the outcome of election or just throw a coup.

Quote[/b] ]Point out another country on this shithole of an Earth, that specifically had a perfect reason for every War that they have enguaged in.

And US has perfect reason? puhhlease!

[ralphwiggum 6]

Honestly, Baff1, are you stupid or something? Or, are you trying to troll?

watch your language.

Quote[/b] ] Duke do not feed him no more because his comparison is straight bullshit.

Actually Duke is more like a troll.

Quote[/b] ]

Anyway, to get back on-topic, it seems Ron Paul might run for the Republican nomination for the Presidency since he filed papers for a exploratory committee. I don't think he we win the nomination because he is too libertarian for his party. Furthermore, he is not apart of the Republican establishment. However, if he ran has an independent, he might be Ross Perot v2 which is bad news for the Republicans and good news for the Democrats.

2 yrs is a long way to go. I doubt he will be running strong.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Some people don't even believe the Holocaust happened, can people be that retarded?    "Iran's Leader"  

id actually like to clear this up.  They do not say the mass killing of millions of jews didnt happen.  In Iran, Syria and other arab countries it is believe that the holocoust was not carried out by the Nazis.  Instead they believe that it was carried out by Jews who have large power and influence.  The point there trying to make is that Jews are so ruthless they would kill millions of there own to secure there objectives.  The objective there accused of wanting is Israel, and it is argued that the Holocoust was an attempt to regain support of the notion for a jewish state.  Pre-ww2 arabs interpretation is they wernt even close,  British turned back ships full of refugees in order to keep the arab's on side.

Please do not think this is my view, it is not at all and i think its a disgusting view.  But to people in Iran this is 100% truth,  just like in Texas its 100% truth that every Arab is a suicide bomber.  This is just to show that people that deny the holocoust dont say it didnt happen, they say it wasnt the Nazis.  Again please i cant stress enough this isnt my view.

[billybob2002 0]

watch your language.

Sorry, bossman, for the PG/PG-13 language. I just don't like it when people try to compare the American military, your nation's military and mine, to the Third Reich.

It will not happen, again. I think.....

This section alone tells what a misinformed chest thumper you are. Let's start with beginning of the Korean war. US had troops stationed in Korea south of 38th parallel after Japan surrendered. And a few months before the Korean war, US pulled everyone out of S.Korea following doctrine that US's interest stops at Japan, and implicitly implying that Korean peninsula is not a major place. Only after Korean war erupted, did US realize it's mistake and sent troops under UN flag.

And? The United States had a mutual defense agreement with South Korea. In addition, and this might be a shock to you, American forces were overstretched. The best choice was to raise and train a South Korean military that was defensive in nature. The American did that and, in fact, the Korean Military Advisory Group was last American force in Korea before the Korean War.

The United States couldn't be everywhere.

Anyway, Stalin and his communist buddies knew that America would intervene if a Korean War happened and hoped North Korea would roll over South Korea before America came to South Korea's assistance. Remember, Kim Il Sung had to gain the support of Mao and Stalin for the invasion of the South.

[EiZei 0]

Anyway, Stalin and his communist buddies knew that America would intervene if a Korean War happened and hoped North Korea would roll over South Korea before America came to South Korea's assistance. Remember, Kim Il Sung had to gain the support of Mao and Stalin for the invasion of the South.

If I am not mistaken, their primary objective was to tie down americans in Korea and grind them down with their superior numbers.

[fardwark 0]

The United States couldn't be everywhere.

Nobody asked them to, but that didn't stop them from trying.

[Duke 0]

Ralph, So what do you actually trully know about the Korean Conflict and Korea during Vietnam? i for one know quite a few things. my father served in Korea/Vietnam. I've been told several different factors on incidents that have happened during the Vietnam War, in Korea. like for instance, Can you find any info on The incident where 10 North Koreans hopped the border, hijacked a bus, rode through the city of Seoul with OUR M-60 Machine Guns, and killed 110 civilians, for no reason whatsoever. Our forces followed them, from quite a ways behind, The rok soldiers trapped them, by putting a half track with quad fifties on it, at each end of the Han River Bridge. Once they got on the bridge, the 2 Half Tracks opened fire on the Bus and tore it down to where nothing was left, finally the Bus exploded along with the ammo that was on it for the M-60's. Ever hear about that? Ever hear about the many attacks on US bases on the South during that era? Do you even know about half of that Conflict that was only covered in Stars & Stripes? Many Americans don't. MANY, Americans still today do not believe that we were in Korea, during the Vietnam War.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Ralph, So what do you actually trully know about the Korean Conflict and Korea during Vietnam? i for one know quite a few things. my father served in Korea/Vietnam. I've been told several different factors on incidents that have happened during the Vietnam War, in Korea. like for instance, Can you find any info on The incident where 10 North Koreans hopped the border, hijacked a bus, rode through the city of Seoul with OUR M-60 Machine Guns, and killed 110 civilians, for no reason whatsoever. Our forces followed them, from quite a ways behind, The rok soldiers trapped them, by putting a half track with quad fifties on it, at each end of the Han River Bridge. Once they got on the bridge, the 2 Half Tracks opened fire on the Bus and tore it down to where nothing was left, finally the Bus exploded along with the ammo that was on it for the M-60's. Ever hear about that? Ever hear about the many attacks on US bases on the South during that era? Do you even know about half of that Conflict that was only covered in Stars & Stripes? Many Americans don't. MANY, Americans still today do not believe that we were in Korea, during the Vietnam War.

a scary story, yet i cant help myself comparing to US attrocities in Vietnam like the Mai Lai massicre.

[Duke 0]

There was nothing scary about it. The point of that post is that, The US had to take alot of shit during Vietnam, in Korea. Everytime we were attacked, we couldn't defend ourselves. Why? because the North Koreans weren't "directly threatening to US forces in South Korea". Wtf came up with that rule?

Politicians made too much money off the war in Vietnam, and kept their kids out of the Draft while many many many others had to go because their parents couldn't pay their way for their kids to get out of going. The Vietnam War was on the right foot at the start, but once politicians got their dirty little hands in on it, and stepped in, The War went to Hell in a hand bag. it turned into a Money making War and that was it. Our Military Forces weren't allowed to fight the War the way they wanted/were supposed to fight it. What this is pointing at is, Politics anymore, get a hold of way too many things at once, and create messes in which make it hard to get out of. Atrocities happen in every war. i don't care what country does it or how, Nobody is innocent. All sides do it in time of war reguardless. You have good and bad in each and every side.

[Sophion-Black 0]

The United States couldn't be everywhere.

Nobody asked them to, but that didn't stop them from trying.

because the US tries to do the thing that is morally right.

Quote[/b] ]The Vietnam War was on the right foot at the start, but once politicians got their dirty little hands in on it, and stepped in, The War went to Hell in a hand bag.

That's because of the social revolution, politicians had drugged up minds to bend. they knew that some young hippie would believe the first thing they heard and used it to the advantage as time went on. then there was were-hippies and more young hippies.

Militaristically the US could have won the conflict, but politics got in the way. and good judgement was pushed under cracked out college kids and confused parents.

Quote[/b] ]* The paper tiger affect of TBA's failures in Iraq

* The "Boy who cried wolf" effect of TBA's failures in Iraq

* The damage done to US standing in the world by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The damage done to the US economy by all the treasure wasted by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The massive loss of life both Iraqi and coalition due to TBA's failures in Iraq

* The destruction of a country, Iraq by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The increased level of terrorism in the world due to TBA's failures in Iraq

* The re-emergence of Al Quaida and the Taliban due to the distraction and of two front war caused by TBA's failures in Iraq

* The increased levels of corruption in US society (Haliburton and KBR, anyone) due to TBA's failures in Iraq

1) The US military is only as strong as the US public. right now its divided because no one actually knows what will happen next.

2) When the UN inspectors tell their supervisors that "somethings fishy here" and the rest of the intel commute is saying the same thing. chances are: if it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it sure is **** ain't no sheep.

3) The US isn't failing, It takes longer to strangle something than to slit its throat. It's hard to find one right now.

4) DOW JONES BROKE 11K that's the highest ever there slick, AND the US was fighting three fronts at the time it broke. ARE YOU BLIND?

5) It's war, right now US casualties are lower than the Philippine-American War (lasted 4 years).

6) if you declare war against a country do you think it will be good as new when you are done?

7 & 8) If you kick over an anthill do you think they will stay in the hill?

9) increased level of corruption? do you know US history?

If that is all the evidence you are basing the statements that the US is failing. Its common sense, If people are blaming the government for all of these problems then, man... the US public is too dependant on the government. Or just plain stupid.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Ralph, So what do you actually trully know about the Korean Conflict and Korea during Vietnam? i for one know quite a few things. my father served in Korea/Vietnam. I've been told several different factors on incidents that have happened during the Vietnam War, in Korea. like for instance, Can you find any info on The incident where 10 North Koreans hopped the border, hijacked a bus, rode through the city of Seoul with OUR M-60 Machine Guns, and killed 110 civilians, for no reason whatsoever. Our forces followed them, from quite a ways behind, The rok soldiers trapped them, by putting a half track with quad fifties on it, at each end of the Han River Bridge. Once they got on the bridge, the 2 Half Tracks opened fire on the Bus and tore it down to where nothing was left, finally the Bus exploded along with the ammo that was on it for the M-60's. Ever hear about that? Ever hear about the many attacks on US bases on the South during that era? Do you even know about half of that Conflict that was only covered in Stars & Stripes? Many Americans don't. MANY, Americans still today do not believe that we were in Korea, during the Vietnam War.

funny. I almost got my minor in Korean history. was one class away from getting that.

Can you find name of that incident? Such large incident would not go unnoticed and would have some name mentioned. Whoever told you the story knows very little about it and is misunderstanding a few things. Look for Silmido on Wiki and Silmido film. The movie was very loosely based on the incident and it was NOT N.Koreans. The S.Korean government said it was N.Koreans but in truth it was S.Korean commandos.

[ralphwiggum 6]

There was nothing scary about it. The point of that post is that, The US had to take alot of shit during Vietnam, in Korea. Everytime we were attacked, we couldn't defend ourselves. Why? because the North Koreans weren't "directly threatening to US forces in South Korea".    Wtf came up with that rule?

Politicians made too much money off the war in Vietnam, and kept their kids out of the Draft while many many many others had to go because their parents couldn't pay their way for their kids to get out of going. The Vietnam War was on the right foot at the start, but once politicians got their dirty little hands in on it, and stepped in, The War went to Hell in a hand bag. it turned into a Money making War and that was it. Our Military Forces weren't allowed to fight the War the way they wanted/were supposed to fight it. What this is pointing at is, Politics anymore, get a hold of way too many things at once, and create messes in which make it hard to get out of.

US did not take much shit from world during Korean war, and Vietnam didn't matter so much in the beginning. You are trying to fit your narrow view of politicians into historical time frame, and doing a poor job by mixing current political climate and saying it applies to the past.

The current crop of arguments that are arising due to Iraq war is that if politicians stayed away from what military should do, it would have been done. Unfortunately that's just another denial in works. It does have some credibility that Fallujah offense was halted by the top brass for a few days, but looking at overall picture, war is not a purely military matter. Politic get a share of it along with other factors.

Quote[/b] ]Atrocities happen in every war. i don't care what country does it or how, Nobody is innocent. All sides do it in time of war reguardless. You have good and bad in each and every side.

And yet a few posts ago you were talking about how US is the only country that went to war with perfectly good reason.