USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[EiZei 0]

I have never understood why so many europeans have such staunchly biased opinions about the US and Its politics. You don't see people in the US lambasting every policy of the EU ect....

Sir Toadfoot

Quote[/b] ]Thank you for endorsing the stereotype of the uninformed american. Some examples of what you say doesn't happen:

- Christians Right recent anti dutch campaigns because of euthanasia.

- UN Bashing and the rather childish Boo'ing at the Republican National Convention.

- "Old Europe" bashing by Republican officials at the Republican National Convention.

- Europe being called "Cowards" when they didn't swallow the WMD evidence head line and sinker.

- Constant US criticisme of the dutch drug policy even when statistics prove it works better at prevention then the US "War on drugs" system.

- US Invasion laws of the Netherlands should a US serviceman ever be brought before the Internation War Crimes Court.

I have never understood why so many europeans have such staunchly biased opinions about the US and Its politics. You don't see people in the US lambasting every policy of the EU ect....

Sir Toadfoot

Thank you for endorsing the stereotype of the uninformed american. Some examples of what you say doesn't happen:

- Christians Right recent anti dutch campaigns because of euthanasia.

- UN Bashing and the rather childish Boo'ing at the Republican National Convention.

- "Old Europe" bashing by Republican officials at the Republican National Convention.

- Europe being called "Cowards" when they didn't swallow the WMD evidence head line and sinker.

- Constant US criticisme of the dutch drug policy even when statistics prove it works better at prevention then the US "War on drugs" system.

- US Invasion laws of the Netherlands should a US serviceman ever be brought before the Internation War Crimes Court.

(Having trouble with teh quotes, lol.)

These seven things that you have listed are refering to politicians. I was talking about he common people of our country. You don't see people having rallies in the US waiving around posters saying things like

"Insert foriegn leader heer Is a Nazi and the number one terrorist"

Sir Toadfoot

How much do you know about common people of europe?

[Donnervogel 0]

I found this quite an interesting article. It's available in german too.

The votes that really count have not yet been cast

Just an the last bit, I recommend to read the whole article though.

Quote[/b] ]What lesson do we learn?

On the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December, everything will probably go as planned in the college. Probably no elector will vote unfaithfully if it would change the outcome of the election. But the college is a powder keg that could blow up any time. In addition to the possibility that a group of electors might conspire to vote unfaithfully, more than one elector could elect to do so by chance. And if they change the outcome of the election, the whole world will know that Americans have never directly elected a president.

When reading it I found out that I actually knew off it but I wans't aware. And there is something worring about the fact that this system could once fail...

[denoir 0]

You don't see people having rallies in the US waiving around posters saying things like

"Insert foriegn leader heer Is a Nazi and the number one terrorist"

LOL. No you see the same signs as in rallies abroad i.e "Bush is a Nazi and the number one terrorist".

If anything, that should tell you something.

[billybob2002 0]

You don't see people having rallies in the US waiving around posters saying things like

"Insert foriegn leader heer Is a Nazi and the number one terrorist"

LOL. No you see the same signs as in rallies abroad i.e "Bush is a Nazi and the number one terrorist".

If anything, that should tell you something.

That they never picked up a history book...

[Frisbee 0]

That they never picked up a history book...

Like the ones saying France owes the US?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Like the ones saying France owes the US?

Stop killing my fun...we are talking about people in Europe...

[Pathy 0]

I was never moaning, I couldn't care less what the world thinks of us, honestly.  The only way the world would stop hating us would be if we ceased to exist.  I don't know why that is, but it is becoming more and more the truth.  Mabey if we threw out all of our government officials and replaced them with librals......Ones that don't represent the majority of our country, then that might make a difference.  But I doubt it.

So you dont care about the rest of the world, and you agree with the government officials? Even though it is thier policy that makes the rest of the world hate you.

Mmmmmm.......

So why are you even bringing it up, if you dont care what we think?

I think you DO care, but at the same time, you cannot bring yourself to see that its the fault of your own country as to why others hate you, instead you attempt rationalise it by saying that its the fault of those that do not like the USA, without ever considering that they must have a reason to dislike you in the first place.

But like you said, you agree with the policy makers, you dont care what the rest of the world thinks, so....may as well carry on with your flawed foreign policy, just dont start crying when you find yourself with few allies left.

[Grigory Toadfoot 0]

I believe the US is the best country on this earth, just my own humble opinion, though. Hey, Im gonna defend my country, and Im a conservative, so I'll probably never agree with any libral euorpean...... So, your right, probably pointless to argue.

You did make some somewhat convincing points. However, If somebody said your country was terrible and wrong in every single thing they do, then you probably would say that they are the ones in the wrong as well.

Sir Toadfoot

[sanctuary 19]

I believe the US is the best country on this earth, just my own humble opinion, though. Hey, Im gonna defend my country, and Im a conservative, so I'll probably never agree with any libral euorpean...... So, your right, probably pointless to argue.

You did make some somewhat convincing points. However, If somebody said your country was terrible and wrong in every single thing they do, then you probably would say that they are the ones in the wrong as well.

Sir Toadfoot

That is not true : if one can show me that my french government/medias are lying to me , i will not support them anymore.

When the Chernobyl central exploded in 1986 and the radioactive cloud moved on the whole Europe, in my country the politicians from both sides decided to create a lie, instead of telling us the truth and then spending founds to make anti-cancer actions.

At this old time, our politicians used some meteo institutes and the collaboration of our medias to help making the lie more convincing, i remember they showed several meteo picture with some scientific commenting them , it was well done and very convincing about the presence of an anticyclon over the western end part of the europe (and so France) , making a kind of "wall" on this zone.

This of course was a complete lie.

In the same time , all the other politicians in our neighbour countries decided to tell their people the truth : the radioactive cloud went in their own countries.

So in those countries, several action to help preventing tyroid cancers were made, while in France nothing was done (just some actions near the frontiers to help the "cloud stopped at the frontier" lie ) and tons of people got tyroid cancers with the time.

But information was more state controlled at this time, and was not world spread like it is nowadays (internet was a joke at this time).

When i heard and saw the proof that it was a state lie made to us as a people, i put an end in believing what my governments and my medias can say.

I wonder, with those kind of example from the past (1986) you can continue to support a government that is lying, not only to you as an individual , not only to you as usa citizen but to the UN (so the world) too.

You will continue to support the guys that are lying to you ?

[shinRaiden 0]

In two hours from now (13:30 @ GMT -8 (US West Coast) 16:30 @ GMT -5), the Washington State Supreme Court will hear arguments relating to the second gubernatorial recount.

Quote[/b] ]The Washington Supreme Court will hear oral argument in McDonald, et al. v. Reed, et al at the Temple of Justice in Olympia. The Washington State Democratic Central Committee is suing Washington Secretary of State Sam Reed, the King County Records, Elections and Licensing Services Division, the Washington State Republican Party and others over ballots thrown out in the November 2, 2004 governor's race. The Court is being asked whether to count ballots that have been invalidated.

A machine recount of nearly 3 million votes cast determined that Republican gubernatorial candidate Dino Rossi beat Democrat Christine Gregoire by 42 votes. Washington's counties started hand recounts on Wednesday, December 8th and Thursday, December 9th.

The Court will review the case in an expedited manner, and will post its decision via the Washington Courts website at www.courts.wa.gov as soon as it becomes available.

This will be carried live on TVW in Washington State, and on CSPAN-2 in all markets.

The case being pressed by the Democratic party is that ballots previously ruled invalid (for incorrect information, not signing the mail-in ballots, not updated change of address, etc...) ought to be considered valid and counted. This is in clear violation of state and federal law and court precedent, as well as counter to official opinions that the Democratic candidate for state Govenor gave previously as State Attorney General.

If you don't have C-SPAN, you can stream the proceedings from these links:

Real Player

Windows Media

The State Supreme Court is expected to reject the case, however in preperation for the event that invalid ballots are validated, the Democratic and Republican parties were busy throughout the weekend gathering affidavits from the contactable voters and submitting them to their respective campaigns to be filed with the county elections boards in the even they would be authorized.

[shinRaiden 0]

Just in case you thought the presidential elections were over, today the Electors meet in the various states to cast the real ballots for president. In many jurisdictions, such as Washington state, there is no requirement that the electors actually vote for the candidate that they claimed to represent in convention or caucus.

Second, proceedings begin in McDonald, et al. v. Reed, et al in 30 minutes on C-SPAN2.

[billybob2002 0]

Just in case you thought the presidential elections were over, today the Electors meet in the various states to cast the real ballots for president. In many jurisdictions, such as Washington state, there is no requirement that the electors actually vote for the candidate that they claimed to represent in convention or caucus.

Second, proceedings begin in McDonald, et al. v. Reed, et al in 30 minutes on C-SPAN2.

shh...the people have the power.. Anyway, Kerry loss a elector to....Edwards...

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/10407381.htm

[shinRaiden 0]

Update -

Washington State Supreme Court Justice Richard Sanders is not available for the hearing, so there are only 8 sitting justices hearing this case.

[Grigory Toadfoot 0]

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, Kerry loss a elector to....Edwards...

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/10407381.htm

LOL!

[shinRaiden 0]

He (or she) who wishes to be govenor must answer me these questions three:

1) What... is the meaning of recount?

2) What... is the meaning of recanvass?

3) Where... is Judge Richard Sanders today?

---

court has just recessed after taking arguements, opinion expected by the end of the week.

---

With 24 of the 39 counties reporting, Democrat Christine Gregoire has picked up an additonal +144 votes, Republican Dino Rossi got +190 votes, and Libertarian Ruth Bennett picked up another +7. This more than doubles Rossi's lead from 42 to 88 votes so far. However, this only reflects ~21% of total precincts.

[Mr_Tea 0]

What the F*ck is going on in the USA.

After saying "I´m ashamed to be an Texan, because President Bush is from Texas to", Artists no longer played on Radio Stations. Wasn`t there somthing thats called THE FREDOM OF SPEECH, and why does it no longer exist.

here you`ll find more.

http://people-link5.inch.com/piperma....32.html

[kerosene 0]

Freedom of speech dosent extend to the private sector though, clear channel have as much right not to play music they dont like because of the artists belifs as shops have the right not to sell it.  

There are plenty of U.S celebrities who are critical of the right, its just that if your fanbase are mainstream or right leaning then they usually want celebrites they admire not to challenge their world view.  If your a platnium country artist you know that kind of stuff is gonna give you shit, thats why that girl from the dixie chicks said it outside of the U.S.

Your supposed to pander to your audience, the Nuge is a good example of someone who knows how to this. Springsteen can say what he wants cause everyone knows where he stands already.

[billybob2002 0]

What the F*ck is going on in the USA.

After saying "I´m ashamed to be an Texan, because President Bush is from Texas to", Artists no longer played on Radio Stations. Wasn`t there somthing thats called THE FREDOM OF SPEECH, and why does it no longer exist.

here you`ll find more.

http://people-link5.inch.com/piperma....32.html

Welcome to country music.... Alot of country music fans are pro-Bush and etc. So what they said was crazy. Anyway, radio stations (MTV and other crap is included) have the right not to play your music or not.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Wasn`t there somthing thats called THE FREDOM OF SPEECH, and why does it no longer exist.

The 1st Amendment prevents the government from regulating free speech, though it seems a lot of people are too ignorant to understand that simple detail.

[shinRaiden 0]

www.courts.wa.gov

Quote[/b] ]

THE SUPREME COURT OF WASHINGTON

NO. 7 6 3 2 1 - 6

DAVID T. McDONALD and RONALD TARO SUYEMATSU; SANFORD SIDELL; BRENT CAMPBELL; and HILLARY DENDY, Petitioner-Electors, and WASHINGTON STATE DEMOCRATIC CENTRAL COMMITTEE,

Petitioners,

v.

SECRETARY OF STATE SAM REED; KING COUNTY RECORDS, ELECTIONS AND LICENSING SERVICES DIVISION and DEAN LOGAN, ITS DIRECTOR; FRANKLIN COUNTY AUDITOR; PEND OREILLE COUNTY AUDITOR; and PIERCE COUNTY AUDITOR as representatives of WASHINGTON STATE COUNTY AUDITOR CANVASSING BOARDS, Respondents, and DINO ROSSI, a Washington Citizen and Elector, WASHINGTON STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY, an unincorporated association, Intervenor-Respondents.

------------------------------------------------------

By a petition invoking this court’s mandamus jurisdiction and a statute entitled “Prevention and correction of election frauds and errors,†RCW 29A.68.011, various electors and the Washington State Democratic Central Committee seek an order directing Secretary of State Sam Reed to promulgate “uniform standards†for the manual recount now taking place in the Washington State election for Governor. Their Motion and Brief in Support of Emergency Partial Relief specifies that three such sets of standards are being sought:

(1) standards that ensure that all ballots rejected in previous counts are fully canvassed so that the hand recount produces as complete and accurate a tabulation as possible; (2) standards for evaluating previously-rejected signatures according to the more liberal standards applied in most counties; and (3) standards that allow party representatives to meaningfully witness the hand recount, by observing all actual ballots being counted.

Petitioners thus argue that, contrary to current practice, in a manual recount election workers and canvassing boards must consider anew all ballots previously left uncounted, in keeping with their statutory duty to count all votes cast or each ballot cast, though their argument mainly focuses on rejections made on the basis that absentee and provisional ballot signatures do not match with signatures on file. They seem to suggest that this is necessary in part because King County improperly refused to permit voters to protest the decision not to count their ballots on November 17, 2004, the date the election results were certified. Petitioners further suggest that, contrary to the election statutes, including a statute that requires the Secretary to promulgate uniform election rules, the various counties now employ disparate tests and procedures for comparing signatures, with King County having a greater rejection rate than other counties that is statistically significant. And they suggest that the procedures in place for witnessing the recount are contrary to law, and that such witnesses must be given “a meaningful opportunity to be heard before erroneous government action finally disenfranchises a voter.â€

This court is mindful that it is the policy of the State of Washington “to encourage every eligible person to register to vote and to participate fully in all elections.†RCW 29A.04.205. “No right is more precious in a free country than that of having a voice in the election of those who make the laws under which, as good citizens, we must live. Other rights, even the most basic, are illusory if the right to vote is undermined.†Wesberry v. Sanders, 376 U.S. 1, 17, 84 S.Ct. 526, 11 L. Ed. 2d 481 (1964). Nonetheless, we must reject petitioners’ arguments.

In this context, a “ballot†is a physical or electronic record of the choices of an individual voter, or the physical document on which the voter’s choices are to be recorded. RCW 29A.04.008(1)©,(d). “‘Recount’ means the process of retabulating ballots and producing amended election returns….†RCW 29A.04.139 (emphasis added). The procedure for recounts is set forth in RCW 29A.64.041, and starts with the county canvassing board opening “the sealed containers containing the ballots to be recounted.†See RCW 29A.60.110. <u>Thus, under Washington’s statutory scheme, ballots are to be “retabulated†only if they have been previously counted or tallied, subject to the provisions of RCW 29A.60.210.

It follows that this court cannot order the Secretary to establish standards for the recanvassing of ballots previously rejected in this election.</u> And petitioners’ call for uniform signature-checking standards (seemingly beyond the statutory requirement that the signature on an absentee ballot be the same as the signature in voter registration files) is beyond the relief that can be afforded in this action.1 Petitioners suggest in their reply brief that a claimed disparity in signature-checking standards implicates equal protection concerns under the privileges and immunities clause of our state constitution, Const. art. I, 19, but they claim no discriminatory intent. We are mindful that King County rejected a higher percentage of signatures than did other counties, but the record before us does not establish the reason for this disparity, and it could be for factors other than the standard employed.2 We do not take petitioners’ argument to suggest that a claimed disparity in rejection rates of voter signatures triggers some independent right, constitutional or otherwise, to a recanvassing of rejected ballots under a newly developed standard, nor does such an argument come to mind.

Petitioners also seem to suggest that recanvassing of rejected ballots is necessary because the methods employed by King County to allow voters to rehabilitate rejected absentee and provisional ballots run afoul of Washington’s statutory and regulatory scheme. But we find no support for this notion. We note that the county gave absentee voters who failed to sign their ballot affidavits until 4:30 p.m. on November16, 2004, the day before certification, to sign and return the affidavits, in accordance with WAC 434-240-235. And although this regulation does not require as much, the county likewise permitted absentee voters with problem signatures until 4:30 p.m. on November16 to provide an updated signature. The county’s procedure for handling signature problems with respect to provisional ballots, which also specified a deadline of 4:30 p.m. on November16, appears to comport with pertinent regulations and federal law, and petitioners do not persuasively suggest otherwise. Although, as petitioners point out, RCW 29A.60.190(1) provides that the election results should include absentee ballots postmarked on or before the date of the election and received on or before the date of certification, this statute does not address how ballots rejected for missing or invalid signatures are to be handled.

As for petitioners’ request that we order the Secretary to promulgate “standards that allow party representatives to meaningfully witness the hand recount,†we are not convinced that such standards are presently lacking. RCW 29A.64.041 provides that the recount may be observed by persons representing the candidates, that these witnesses may make no record of the names, addresses, or information on the ballots, poll books, or applications for absentee ballots unless authorized by the superior court, and that the Secretary or county auditor may limit the number of observers to not less than two on each side if, in his or her opinion, a greater number would cause undue delay or disruption of the recount process. Petitioners provide no support for their suggestion that witnesses or observers are participants who have a right to be heard and influence this manual recount process.

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>For the foregoing reasons, we reject petitioners’ arguments and deny their petition for mandamus and request for relief under RCW 29A.68.011.</span>

CHIEF JUSTICE

1 RCW 29A.40.110(3) requires that the signature on an absentee ballot return envelope be “the same†as the signature in the voter registration files, as determined by the canvassing board or its designated representative, whereas WAC 434-253-047 requires a signature for a provisional ballot that “matches a voter registration record.â€

2 We note in passing that the declaration of Dean C. Logan, Director of King County Records, Elections and Licensing Division, says that King County, like many other counties, looks for three points of similarity between the signatures on absentee and provisional ballot envelopes and the signatures on file. If staff finds less than three points of similarity, a supervisor looks at the signatures using the same three-point system. “If the supervisor also believes there is a question as to the validity of the signature, it is referred to the canvassing board for a determination.†Petitioners have submitted the declaration of Joshua C. Jungman, who says that he and other Democratic staff members contacted county auditors to investigate the methods and procedures used to compare and verify signatures. Several auditor offices reported using the same three point method, with canvassing boards having the final say. Mr. Jungman suggests that in King County the decision “doesn’t go to the canvassing board,†but does not say who provided this information. Significantly, petitioners do not suggest that any particular method of signature verification is faulty, or what uniform method should be mandated by the Secretary.

But in a contingency plan reminiscent of third-world institutional elections fraud the Democratic Party operative in charge of the King County Dep't of Elections announced the discovery of 561 additional ballots that were mistakenly disqualified, and only discovered this past weekend.

Quote[/b] ]

King County Elections Director Dean Logan will ask the Canvass Board on Wednesday to amend the certified results of the November 2, 2004 General Election to include a series of absentee ballots wrongly rejected during the original canvas.

Approximately 561 absentee ballots were mistakenly rejected because the signature on the ballot did not match the original voter registration records. In fact, these were signed ballots where a signature was not on file in the county's voter registration system. Original registration records should have been retrieved to verify the ballot signatures.

"From the very first ballot counted, I have maintained that every ballot of every valid voter should be counted. In the case of these ballots, the mistake was on our part in not finding signatures of what appear to be eligible voters. We take full responsibility," said Logan. "An error has been made that has prevented valid ballots from being counted. We need to correct the error and count those votes."

Election officials became aware of the situation Sunday evening and have worked since to identify the ballots and ensure they are secured and available for canvass board review.

Logan said staff will retrieve the ballots, review past registration records for signature comparisons and present all valid ballots to the canvassing board on Wednesday, December 15. Logan said state law specifically authorizes the canvass board to amend the certification of an election when a discrepancy or inconsistency is identified in the original canvas.

Until the canvass board takes formal action on the ballots and the votes are counted, it is unclear the impact these ballots may have on the pending manual recount "What is clear," said Logan "is our obligation to ensure these voters that their votes are counted."

More than 898,000 King County voters cast ballots in the November 2 General Election. The county is currently hand-counting votes cast for Governor following a mandatory machine recount conducted last month. That recount is still on schedule to be completed by December 22.

With 25% of the statewide precincts counted, GOP candidate Dino Rossi has picked up an additional 222 votes, Democratic candidate Christine Gregoire another 167, and Libertarian Ruth Bennett is at +4. Thus far into the 2nd recount, Rossi's lead has grown from 42 votes (including the heavily Gregoire-leaning hundreds of votes artificially and illegally 'enhanced' by the King County elections board in the first recount) to 97 votes.

Washington Sec. of State's Elections

[shinRaiden 0]

With 33% of the precincts reporting in the second recount of Washington's Govenor race, Republican Dino Rossi is leading by 106 votes. King County, source of the worst cases of vote manufacturing and editing, has 2616 total precincts to count. The next closest is Snohomish county with only 698 precincts. 27 of the 39 counties have only double-digit numbers of precincts.

[Billabong81 0]

Even as a Bush-Supporter, I found this video very funny. It is a fake Jay Leno with George Bush interview. You can view it from MSN here. Enjoy .

[theavonlady 2]

Even as a Bush-Supporter, I found this video very funny.  It is a fake Jay Leno with George Bush interview.  You can view it from MSN here.  Enjoy .

Ahahahahahahahahahaha!

/avon cant stop giggling

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Sorry but I couldnt resist. Quite a funny map. But I guess it will take approx 30 seconds untill someone tells me that this has been posted here years ago.

[shinRaiden 0]

Leno's got better writers than that... sheesh. That was somewhere between a yawner and a groaner. Anyway, back to the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of Washington State...

Quote[/b] ]

“I am heartened we have an opportunity to right a wrong,†said Dean Logan, director of Records, Elections and Licensing Services. “Clearly an administrative error was made in how these ballots were previously handled and presented to the canvassing board and we have the clear authority under state law to review these ballots.â€

In it’s ruling, the three-person County Canvassing Board instructed election staff to verify the signatures of 573 previously uncounted ballots. Once signatures have been verified, staff will remove the ballots from their security envelopes for the canvassing board to make a final decision on whether the ballots should be counted.

Under state law, county canvassing boards are allowed to correct any discrepancies or inconsistencies in the returns of election results. The same authority was used in other counties during the machine recount to include previously uncounted ballots.

The next step for staff is to verify the ballots, a process which is expected to take several days. The canvassing board has not made a decision on how staff is to handle ballots if a voter’s signature can not be located.

The canvass board will meet again Monday to rule on whether to count those verified ballots and to determine the status of 22 ballots found Monday in polling place voting units.

The time for Monday’s canvassing board meeting has not been set. Please visit www.metrokc.gov/elections/2004recount/canvassboard.htm for an up-to-date schedule

King County Dept. of Elections

This is only part one of two. These 573 ballots were originally roundfiled because they couldn't be verified at the initial General Election. Because of incompetence, or potential registration or verfication fraud, these ballots were marked invalid. This decision by the canvassing board only authorizes the Elections workers to open the ballots and attempt to verify them using standards and data ruled not available in the inital counting. In the month and a half since the general election, only now in the final deseperate hour do the Democrat's 'discover' the administrative 'error' in previous counts.

Thus far though, with 35 of 39 counties representing 40.56% of precincts statewide, Republican Dino Rossi is now leading by 121 votes. Anyway you spin the numbers though, all predictions indicate that this action by the canvassing board will still possibley keep the result within a couple dozen votes of a true 0-0 tie, but would skew it to the opposite party.