USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[ralphwiggum 6]

I never said that the inspectors weren't there. They were where ever Saddam allowed them to go. And the next they were where ever they were allowed to go that week. You seem to think that this is some sort of success story as opposed to playing a few hands of 3 card monty with Saddam...

so are you implying that there was WMD that Saddam was hiding? If so why has it not been found yet, after US forces are allowed to move any where they want, far more freedom than what the inspectors had?

[Sgt. Jones 0]

Good question. But the fact that they have not been found does not mean that they don't exist. If weapons (chemical. biological, etc.) do exist, the chances are that they have been buried somewhere. The desert is a big place there and the U.S. troops have been somewhat pre-occupied with human issues. It's not Saddam hasn't buried things in the past (military hardware, mass slaughter evidence, etc.). You know, all the things the U.N./E.U. wasn't too terribly concerned with. Internal issues and all that.

[EiZei 0]

But if he had them why did not he use them?

The burden of proof lies on the TBA administration, not the other way.

[Sgt. Jones 0]

But if he had them why did not he use them?

The burden of proof lies on the TBA administration, not the other way.

Alright, so let's give them the time to actually make a good search. That won't happen until other issues are resolved.

[EiZei 0]

But if he had them why did not he use them?

The burden of proof lies on the TBA administration, not the other way.

Alright, so let's give them the time to actually make a good search. That won't happen until other issues are resolved.

You really don't seem to believe in your own revisionist theory then, leaving tons of "hidden" wmd on the desert for grabs.

[denoir 0]

So you are saying that militant EU groups will now trouble us? Hmm.. sounds like a threat.

No, no. You have to get this neanderthalian world image out of your head. It's not "Me have big club" anymore. You won't get destroyed by bombs - you'll get destroyed by being marginalized economically.

It's quite simple and doesn't have to do with the EU specifically. It has to do that if you choose not to play according to the same rules as everybody else, you'll get frozen out. You'll get sanctions, investors will ignore your market etc

Quote[/b] ]Iraq is not a 6 month campaign, nor was it ever meant to be. I know that europe is quick to jump on the "iraq's a failure" bandwagon so it can justify the stance of some of the EU members on the war. But as I said before, let's have it play out. You, or anyone else on here, judging this campaign to be a failure; is, at the very least, highly premature.

The original idea was a two month campaign, with every Iraqi greeting you as liberators. As things are, the place is significantly worse than under Saddam. And what's most alarming is that things are constantly getting worse, not better.

Quote[/b] ]Time will tell. Let's just say that the sky isn't exactly falling on the US. As much as you may predict otherwise. I know that you have your pro-EU prejudices, but this will also be something that will only be born out in time.

Sure, I have my bias, but take a sober look at where you are now and in what direction you're going. You're far from rock bottom, but you are sliding down.

Quote[/b] ]Wow! Sounds like we had better watch ourselves or the EU will get us!

We are already, you just seem to be unable to comperhend it.

During the cold war, you had your special place in the world because of your military might. The relevance of that vanished in the 90's. You still had your place as the world's largest economy. That lasted during the 90'. You are however not that any more - the EU has taken over that position. Tell me, when your weapons aren't relevant and you're not economically significant, how do you suppose you'll survive?

These things don't happen over night of course. You are still an economic force to be reckoned with. Your industrial base is still strong etc But it won't last, and there's really no way of going back.

Why? Quite simple - size matters. Population. The EU is the largest economy in the world today - and the ex-eastern European members havn't begun contributing yet. So that will only grow. China is on its way up. Over a billion of people. When their economy fully develops, they'll be the strongest economy.

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like we have a new expansionist global superpower to contend with.... the EU. Of course, I would tend to think the EU would want to be a bit more of a good neighbor than Denoir predicts, but time will tell. If they intend on being a world dominating empire then that will be dealt with as well.

Economic power, not military. There's no need for excessive military spending. We've got our baseline defence - strategic nuclear weapons. And we have no ambition of invading other countries.

As for sanctions, if you didn't know, the US is alread under a number of WTO sanctions. I guess Bush isn't bragging with that.

Hell, there's was a new set of sanctions approved this week:

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/news/38467.html

Quote[/b] ]The World Trade Organization on Friday authorized the European Union, Canada and five other countries to impose about $150 million in trade sanctions against the United States in retaliation for an import duty law that the WTO ruled illegal last year.

...

[Sgt. Jones 0]

Hmmm... okay....revisionist. Interesting term since the history of this is hardly complete enough to revise. Do I think that these items, should they exist, be left in the desert? No I don't. Do I understand why massive searches aren't being conducted? Yes I do.

[denoir 0]

But if he had them why did not he use them?

The burden of proof lies on the TBA administration, not the other way.

Alright, so let's give them the time to actually make a good search. That won't happen until other issues are resolved.

Actually, they've stopped searching. The conclusion of the Iraq Survey Group was: Saddam destroyed his remaining WMD in the early 90's.

WMD report: Key points [bBC]

I'm surprised that you didn't know this. After all, this was why you invaded Iraq, wasn't it?

[EiZei 0]

Hmmm... okay....revisionist. Interesting term since the history of this is hardly complete enough to revise.

Well, im reminded of certain revisionists when I see these desperate "but you cannot prove that they dont exist! HAH!"-comments.

[Sgt. Jones 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's not "Me have big club" anymore. You won't get destroyed by bombs - you'll get destroyed by being marginalized economically.

No, no. You have to get this myopic view of things out of your head. Economic warfare is just a different club.

Quote[/b] ]During the cold war, you had your special place in the world because of your military might. The relevance of that vanished in the 90's. You still had your place as the world's largest economy. That lasted during the 90'. You are however not that any more - the EU has taken over that position. Tell me, when your weapons aren't relevant and you're not economically significant, how do you suppose you'll survive?

These things don't happen over night of course. You are still an economic force to be reckoned with. Your industrial base is still strong etc But it won't last, and there's really no way of going back.

Why? Quite simple - size matters. Population. The EU is the largest economy in the world today - and the ex-eastern European members havn't begun contributing yet. So that will only grow. China is on its way up. Over a billion of people. When their economy fully develops, they'll be the strongest economy.

This may have been our biggest mistake, according to your arguments. Supporting europe during the cold war that is. Hopefully it won't be our ondoing. Oh well, we'll have to live with our mistakes. Perhaps we should have let the Kremlin have you, but we were suckers *shrug*

Quote[/b] ]Economic power, not military. There's no need for excessive military spending. We've got our baseline defence - strategic nuclear weapons. And we have no ambition of invading other countries.

Once again, I have to remind myself that you neither speak for nor establish direction for the E.U. Your assertion that the E.U. is positioning itself to destroy my country economically would otherwise be....disturbing. If that in fact turns out to be true then we will deal with it.

Quote[/b] ]As for sanctions, if you didn't know, the US is alread under a number of WTO sanctions. I guess Bush isn't bragging with that.

I'ts public knowlege that the WTO has sanctions against the U.S. Quite frankly, I don't think we protect our markets enough.

Anyway this discussion is turning irrelevent. If the E.U. is intent on the destruction of the U.S. economy, then that is unfortunate since many of these nations have been friends with us for many years. We have supported one another, militarily and otherwise, through many events and tragedies. But in the end, I have a feeling that things will not quite be as you predict Denoir.

[Sgt. Jones 0]

Hmmm... okay....revisionist. Interesting term since the history of this is hardly complete enough to revise.

Well, im reminded of certain revisionists when I see these desperate "but you cannot prove that they dont exist! HAH!"-comments.

I don't believe I ever said that they actually do exist. I said that it is a possibility. Given his use of these weapons in the past, and his programs to develop them, it would be a logical conclusion that he may have them again. I just said that the country is too large for it to have been effectively searched by either the U.N. inspectors (with all the restrictions placed upon them by Saddam) or the ISG (in the short term they decided to exercise their search). They may, or may not, exist. Right now no one knows.

[denoir 0]

The point is not that the EU is hell-bent on destroying the US economically or otherwise. On the contrary, friendly cooperation is a far better solution. We have far more interests in common than ones that set us apart.

The point I'm trying to convey is that the US cannot rely no longer on being a military and economic superpower to get special provisions in international deals. The military is getting less important (sure you can blow up third-world countries, but that hardly changes the world overall). You've lost your position as the strongest economy now to the EU - which will most likely be taken over by China in a couple of decades.

So you can't expect to behave like an ass and get away with it. Since after WW2 you have pursued your own interests with complete disregard to what consequences it will have for the rest of the world.

That time is over as you no longer possess the qualities that gave you your special position.

I'm just saying that if you do not accept the reality of the global world and if you continue to enforce your self-interests at the expense of others - then you'll be economically decimated. I do not think that will happen, as I think that you'll sooner or later see the world as it is.

What will be hurt is your (now very inflated) national ego, but that's a fairly small price to pay.

[Akira 0]

I don't believe I ever said that they actually do exist. I said that it is a possibility. Given his use of these weapons in the past, and his programs to develop them, it would be a logical conclusion that he may have them again. I just said that the country is too large for it to have been effectively searched by either the U.N. inspectors (with all the restrictions placed upon them by Saddam) or the ISG (in the short term they decided to exercise their search). They may, or may not, exist. Right now no one knows.

That's all well and good, but the reasons for the war were not that there "might" be WMD in Saddam's hands. It was a definitive "Yes he has them and will use them." Now that that has been proven false TBA resorted to a "liberation" of the Iraqi people excuse.

And yes it is logical and possible that he would or might have seeked them out again. But then again I MIGHT seek out weapons myself. The war was not over the MIGHT, but over the postive knowledge that he in the present held and maintained stockpiles.

And a year later, we still haven't found any. All we have found is more evidence that he didn't actually have any weapons at all. And if TBA's main concern was weapons, they have a funny way of showing. First they roll into Baghdad and every government building, including those that may contain paper's related to weapons, is left unguarded. All except the Oil Ministry of course. In fact, places with known and accounted weapons were left completely unguarded, and later looted by waht is assumed to be what is now the insurgency. Easy enough to drive a truck up and load it up.

Leaves a little lack of credability for the reasons of the war eh?

[BoweryBaker 0]

Every American political group claims to be right wing, but since when have they took a popular stand for or against anything in complete unison?  Can we say lack of spokesman? Can we say grey area?

[shinRaiden 0]

Wall Street Journal - John Fund

Quote[/b] ]

Monday, November 29, 2004 12:01 a.m.

The country dodged a repeat of the 2000 Florida election debacle this year because George W. Bush's margin in the decisive state of Ohio was 136,000 votes. But the one out of 50 Americans who live in Washington state are living through a Florida-style nightmare, with Republican Dino Rossi clinging to a 42-vote lead over Democrat Christine Gregoire in the governor's race after a machine recount of 2.8 million ballots. In the latest example of why this country needs to clean up and clarify its sloppy election systems, Douglas firs substitute for palm trees as the backdrop.

In Seattle's King County alone the vote counting so far has featured such anomalies as 10,000 ballots being mysteriously discovered nearly two weeks after Election Day, election officials "enhancing" hundreds of unreadable optical-scan ballots, and a judge allowing political partisans to selectively track down voters who cast questionable provisional ballots to see if they could turn them into valid votes. Ms. Gregoire gained several hundred votes through such maneuvers, so she has now declared her intention to pay for a hand recount of some of the state's precincts to see if she can take the lead. If a selective recount changes the overall winner, the state would pay for a laborious hand recount of all the votes The process could drag on past Christmas and might eventually have to be settled by the state Supreme Court. Gov. Gary Locke is scheduled to leave office on Jan. 12, but wags are already joking he shouldn't be pack his bags too soon.

The trouble began when it became clear the race was so close it wouldn't be settled by the ballots counted on election night. Washington allows absentee ballots--used by 70% of the voters this year--to be counted as long as they are postmarked by Election Day. Thus everyone knew that the way late absentee and provisional votes (cast by people not on the registration rolls, and subject to later verification) were counted might wind up swinging the election.

That set off a legal fracas over the 929 people in heavily Democratic King County whose provisional ballots hadn't been counted because of mismatched or missing signatures. Democrats demanded the names and addresses of those voters so they could contact them and correct the errors. County officials responded that in requiring that all 50 states offer provisional ballots Congress had stipulated that such votes remain private. Republican lawyers argued that having partisans scavenge for votes would increase the potential for fraud.

But Superior Court Judge Dean Lum said such arguments weren't as important as the need to make sure every vote counted--an echo of Florida. A full 10 days after the election, while absentee votes were still being counted, he ordered election officials to give the names and addresses of the provisional voters to the Democratic Party. Judge Lum did express regret that the judiciary was being "whipsawed in the middle" of a bitter partisan dispute and asked to "micromanage an election." But then he proceeded to do precisely that by allowing partisan workers the opportunity to mine flawed ballots after the election, for the first time in the 20 years that Washington has used provisional ballots.

Democrats spent the next three days knocking on doors and speed-dialing voters. Ryan Bianchi, communications assistant for Ms. Gregoire, made it clear how blatantly partisan the approach was. Democratic volunteers asked if voters had cast ballots for Ms. Gregoire. "If they say no, we just tell them to have a nice day," he told the Seattle Times. Only if they say yes, did the Democrats ask if they want to make their ballot valid. Republicans played catch-up by belatedly using their own phone banks to call up voters and identify ballots that might fall their way if made valid. In the end Democrats turned in some 600 written oaths from provisional voters and Republicans about 200.

Those votes helped narrow Mr. Rossi's eventual lead to 261 votes as the late absentee votes were finally counted and the results certified on Nov. 17. Then the state began a mandatory machine recount. Once again, King County was the center of controversy. More than 700 previously uncounted ballots were added to the county's total after election officials "enhanced" them to better divine voter intent. When optical scan machines didn't accept ballots, workers would fill in ovals on ballots or create duplicate ballots if they felt the voter had meant to register a choice. Hanging chads, meet empty ovals. Through this process, Ms. Gregoire gained 245 votes in King County, dwarfing the shifts to either candidate in any other county.

Such creative counting brought Mr. Rossi's lead down to 42 votes, a critical threshold to justify further recounts and litigation. Former governor Booth Gardner, a Democrat, told a press conference last week that he thought Ms. Gregoire should concede if the final recount margin had been 100 votes or more. But at 42 votes he now feels a hand recount is appropriate.

But is it? It certainly isn't more precise, as the fiasco of Florida's chad counting proved in 2000. "When you're talking about close to 900,000 pieces of paper, I think the machine count is going to be more accurate than a manual count," Dean Logan, the elections director of King County and a Democrat, admitted to reporters. "Every time you have human judgment and frailty enter into the process it will change the result," agrees Bruce Chapman, a Republican who served as Washington's secretary of state before becoming director of the U.S. census in the 1980s. In an interview, he said a hand recount will likely result in bitter litigation that will see the courts intervene to settle the dispute. John Carlson, a Seattle talk show host who was the GOP nominee for governor in 2000, worries that "this state's reputation for clean government may not survive the bitter struggle that appears about to begin."

There but for the grace of Ohio voters went the rest of us this election year. The country dodged the bullet of another presidential election through litigation as thousands of lawyers from both parties stood ready to challenge the results. But Washington state's mess should remind us that it is still imperative to clean up our election systems, better educate voters, develop more precise rules on how provisional ballots should be treated, and discourage judges from "interpreting" the election rules in creative ways that second-guess the intent of legislators. If we ignore the lessons of Florida in 2000 and the lessons from Washington state this year, we will continue to play a form of Russian roulette with our vote count and make inevitable an eventual repeat of 2000.

The Secretary of State will certify the election on Wednesday Dec. 1st, after which the results will be contested and a statewide hand-recount from Dec. 6th through 20th. Ironic that voters in the Ukraine are taking their election so much more seriously than the election here in Washington State. They have a (dubious, I know) margin of several hundred thousand, and we're at 42. Yet we have no rioting, no campouts, just an apathetic populace that says "hmmph. whatever" and flips channels.

[shinRaiden 0]

My bad, the recount (and election) just got certified this moment, with Republican candidate for Governor Dino Rossi being certified as "Governor-Elect", by 42 votes.

It is widely expected that the Democratic Party will call for at least a partial recount. Currently claiming poverty, they say they do not have the $700 000+ to recount the entire state, so they plan to recount selected precients and counties. If they do so, the Republican party is prepared to request a challenge recount for all the other precincts and counties, to make sure "every vote counts".

If the Democrats do initiate a challenge hand-recount, it is expected to run through the week of Christmas. IF that challenge recount conflicts with the current recounted results, the Democrat's will get their money back, and State law will automatically order a THIRD all-precinct state-wide recount, which should conclude about the second week of January, when whoever decides they want to be Governor is scheduled to be inaugurated. The possibility is very good that the next Governor of Washington State may very will not know that he or she is going to be Governor until the day before they're to take the oath of office and start work.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Currently claiming poverty, they say they do not have the $700 000+ to recount the entire state, so they plan to recount selected precients and counties. If they do so, the Republican party is prepared to request a challenge recount for all the other precincts and counties, to make sure "every vote counts".

Should they ask the DNC for the cash? Did not Kerry release his millions of dollars he still had to his party

[Tovarish 0]

It was a slow day at school today, so between classes I hopped on a bus downtown to see Dubya's welcome here in Ottawa. Here are some pictures I snapped - since this is so political I'm keeping it out of the photography thread.

[Tovarish 0]

[BoweryBaker 0]

I can understand them.  When war was called in Iraq I was like oh no, two wars, but then i got pumped when they explained the evidence.  I said awwww man, thats good evidence, but didn't really know for sure that was a picture of what it was supposed to be a picture of.  It could have been an Iraqi school for deaf children they said was a nuke facility, I don't know.  The president explained it today by basically saying "I act based upon what I think is right.  If I feel there is a threat to the nation presented to me, I'm going to defend the nation.  Yeah I'll confer with other nations, but in the end I'm just going to defend it regardless."  That I agreed with.  Then again, if my enemy louie bought a gun, i wouldn't go out of my way to make sure he couldn't own it, but we're talking nukes here, not guns one might say.  Was the country really in danger?  That was Micheal Moore's question, and mine as well.  I don't feel that the President or anyone lied, I just feel that the operation was carried out the wrong way.  Our military strategists ain't what they used to be.  The president only gives the order for war.  People shouldn't be angry at him.  They should be angry at the strategist behind the war.  Tommy Franks n them.  The head of Central Intelligence.  Those are the ones that Canada should be angry at.  They act like they don't even know how American government is run.  The president only gives the order to do something about it, he doesn't say how to operate.  They told him there were nukes, notice the word they.  They told him it was the end to major combat operations.  I feel that it was democratic party sympathisers trying to make Bush look bad or something.

[BoweryBaker 0]

All my life I had a body odor problem.  At age eighteen life got to me and I had a mental breakdown right there in high school in front of everybody.  At home I was cool but in public, amongst people, my weakness, i broke down.   I asked for a psychiatrist.  My stepdad conjured up a scheme to have me put into a mental institution.  It all looked viable on the surface based on the eye witness accounts.  The only man responsible for my current state of social security money which I am very thankful for is dead.  He blessed me, but at the same time I have to take these pills.  I turn my head and get a five second state of inertia, or if I raise my voice too loud.  Maybe I'm just tired or getting old and I'm being fed a placebo.  Either way I don't trust what's going into me, and my only other option at making money this big is light years away. By big we're talking a measly 513 dollars a month, not even enough to cover basic needs for a month if I decided to move out.  God has a way of providing even when the world turns against you.  Why is it my life turned out this way?  Money.  Not enough money to afford a psych, so I had to be labeled a nut, which I was temporarily.  The pills are still a mandate because they say once you go nutty you go nutty twice, which I haven't.  Sure they put me in for punching my brother but he got stupid with me and I had to defend myself.  They'd just hate to see me be broke.  I'd hate to see me be broke too.  look at our american system based on my account and see how many flaws you can point out.  Create a better system.  You can make it happen.  By the way, the body odor problem was eventually solved through psychiatric therapy.  I had an anxiety problem.  The medics say the pills cured it, but I don't believe it.  I was taught a breathing method, the pills didn't teach that.  In the book of Proverbs King Solomon states that when a married couple divorces they children fall under a curse for the next ten generations.  The lack of society's acceptance could be it, that lack of wisdom and acceptance of people willing to help me put me in a place in society, rather than feed me pulls and hook me up to the matrix ( the internet).  The realest people I ever met were in the nuthouse.  A woman who only spoke Iraqi, an ex navy officer from the sixties with vast knowledge, a boy who gained his sanity in twenty four hours by Gods grace, a forty five year old woman fully capable of intelligence and finding her path in life sent in by her own mother.  Something foul is afoot that no ofp mission could explain or show relation too, yet I don't need an ofp mission to beat this chess game.  If divine mercy is shown upon me in some form or other, practical im sure, and I have to leave the ofp community, I'll say my final goodbye.  Till then its missions to the hilt.  Avon lady needs missions, the addon makers want us to use their addons, and people like Commando84 like playing them.  The situation has definitely changed me.  Watch out world.  The lowest of the low and im called the greatest perhaps in gest, respect maybe, sweetness.  What you give shall be returned its been said in some fashion.  One night I almost choked to death in my sleep.  Almost called home some might say.  Swallowed down the wrong tube others might say but I think I know better.  Lifespan is determined, perhaps pretermined, after certain procedures.  My goal is complete tonight.  Just another political journal entry you might say. To quote fifty cent's principles and another new yorker i met on the fly "Be easy nigga...". To quote Warren G "Now who's the real niggga, can you answer that? The brother thats jacking or the fool getting jacked?"

[theavonlady 2]

Maybe I'm just tired or getting old and I'm being fed a placebo.

MURDERER!

Hmmm.......................... chance to spam!

But back on topic. Pics from Ottowa? Ok!

PART 1 OF 2 - OTTAWA PROTEST PHOTOS

PART 2 OF 2 - OTTAWA PROTEST PHOTOS

Courtesy of IDF Dave

[BoweryBaker 0]

Who's the murderer, Avon?  They really screwed Bush over manipulating what he knows to get him to order war based off his job duty.

[Tovarish 0]

But back on topic. Pics from Ottowa? Ok!

Dang, looks like I missed the majority of the excitement

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ] On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial was about four feet in height, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin and exuded harmony and humour. He told Rael that:

"we were the ones who made all life on earth"

"you mistook us for gods"

"we were at the origin of your main religions"

"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,

we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"

The Raelian Revolution, the world's largest Atheist, non-profit UFO related organisation - over 60,000 members in 90 countries - working towards the first embassy to welcome people from space... destroying the myth of god and sweeping the world with the most politically incorrect and fearlessly individualistic philosophy of non-conformism

Vote Raelian 2008