Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[sanctuary 19]

More than 300 dead, half of those death are children.

...

i always can't believe those beasts could go that low....

[raedor 8]

ard (german TV channel) says 500.

[Bordoy 0]

Anyone know who the SOBR are? possibility of them being the soldiers?

[raedor 8]

Edit: Not to mention the hunt that started afterwards....sorry but coordinated moves look very different. At least an area where a hostage situation takes place should be encirceled...

I´m sorry, but russian forces again didn´t act like professionals. My opinion by the status of knowledge I have right now.

yes, that's my impression, too. soldiers without helmets were running imho uncoordinated to the left, to the right... the relatives of the hostages were like 10 meter behind the storming tanks & troops... from what i saw in TV it was chaos, pure chaos. and then some of the kidnappers went through the lines of soldiers... how could _that_ happen?!

i know, it's easy to critise...

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

Incorrect... Muslims DO have an obligation to denounce this kind of act.  

Yes, but they cannot do much more than denounce them. They DO denounce them but they lack the resources to get rid of these imposters.

Correction, they have a responsibility to denounce acts like this PUBLICLY.  I am sure that there are many states and law enforcement organizations that would help them if asked.

Quote[/b] ]And they're making a hell of an impression. :\ To actually believe they are devout muslims is beyond stupid.

If communities have a responsibility to police themsevles, then leave it to the leaders of that community, not the common individual.

While on the surface you are correct, this assumes that everyone in the world has understanding of Islam.  Since this is not the case, therefore the silence of the Muslim community at large concerning these heinous acts coupled with the constant barrage of suicide bombers, kidnappings, beheadings and terrorist plots done in the name of Islam against the "infidel" paints its own picture unfortunately.

Yes, policing efforts should be an official undertakeing and not a vigilantee endeavor.

Quote[/b] ]Quote (ericz @ Sep. 04 2004,18:23)

ScorpioQuote  

Quote  

then its their job to clean it up.

No, I don't agree with that. Other muslims should have to answer to NOTHING. What a few cowardly dogs did has nothing to do with the muslim communities and NONE of the good muslims should have to account for their actions. Why can't you just leave them alone? They had nothing to do with it, for goodness sake.

By your statement:

-A killed B.

- C should account for B's actions.  

Incorrect... Muslims DO have an obligation to denounce this kind of act.  The perpetrators of this act and others like it present themselves to the world to be devout Muslims.

and they ARE.

Who are you to tell them their interpretation is wrong?  Its no more or less valid than any other interpretation.  Equally crazy, equally based on faith, equally lacking in reasoning.... but not any less valid than the peaceable muslim factions interpretations.  (or the christian, jew factions interpretations of their myths.)

Its not an issue of whether I believe their interpretation is wrong or right. However as Scorpio pointed out good Muslims would have nothing to do with this act.

Your statement that a religious interpretation that justfies and encourages the intentional killing of children is valid, is simply moronic.  I sincerely hope I misunderstood your statement.  

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

Lets not forget their rallying cry of Allah Akbar as they detonate themselves and blow children away.  If they are silent , then it can be assumed that at very least, acts like this have their tacit approval.

Communities have a responsibility to police themselves.  The Chechen people have a responsibility to themselves, their cause and the world to assist in eradicating terrorists in their midst.  That is unless they approve of their actions in the first place.

Yes, although since some people seem to think devout religiousness is a good thing, ridding communities of the very religious (of the same religion) is not something you see often

Its not a function of religion, its a function of law and order.  Ridding terrorists and murderers from your midst has nothing to do with ridding a community of religious devotion, unless of course your a commissar.

[Bordoy 0]

I´m sorry, but russian forces again didn´t act like professionals. My opinion by the status of knowledge I have right now.

Thats because they are not Spetsgruppa A.

[Scorpio 0]

 

Quote[/b] ]Correction, they have a responsibility to denounce acts like this PUBLICLY.

They do. Just look around on the news - many scholars, especially shiite and non-wahabi sunni, are condemning these acts. For example, may I direct you to this page.

Quote[/b] ]I am sure that there are many states and law enforcement organizations that would help them if asked.

Like? I don't think there are many trustworthy organizations around the Middle East.

Besides, they are already after them. Who isn't. Groups like Hamas, Al-Qaeda, etc. are already being hunted down but there's seems to be little luck.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

Correction, they have a responsibility to denounce acts like this PUBLICLY.

They do. Just look around on the news - many scholars, especially shiite and non-wahabi sunni, are condemning these acts. For example, may I direct you to this page.

Thanks, I bookmarked that for future perusal.  Yes, i am watching CNN and a spokesperson for Al-hamat??? is speaking on this issue.

Pakistan is certainly doing so as well as Saudi Arabia and others.  If not in the Middle East then in Europe, U.S. etc.

[ran 0]

All this raised a question in my mind.

How would we (as in western europeans) manage to handle this kind of situation ?

The European HRT and CT units aren't formed to face more than let's say a dozen of hostiles when there are hostages involved. There's no way we could face coherently, efficiently and safely 25 or more terrorists equipped with explosive belts.

And would our numbers of operatives be sufficient ?

And knowing the reluctance of most European countries to deploy their army on their own soil in an actual full blown stand, I don't know who would ensure the integrity of a safety perimeter, policemen ? with which weapons and which gear ?

The simple perspective of an attack of this kind in western Europe frightens me. We have no meens to fight back and preserve the lives of the hostages if something went down the way it did in Russia in the hospital, the theater and the school.

We can go rethorics about how the Ivans rushed in as they're used to, but i'm not sure such an event would end much differently here.

By the way, I think it's a miracle that the captors haven't triggered voluntarily their explosives when the shootout broke.

In my opinion the operation can't be considered as a complete failure since in a similar situation a 1/2 victims/hostages ratio could be considered as a correct result. One can't trust the official numbers so the death toll may have eventually and unfortunately reached this ratio. The russian troops on the spot have been forced to react to the events.

Only time will tell us the exact deal about what has happened. Until then, we can be as critical as we want, but it won't help and will just spread rumours of conspiracies and doubts. The fact is that right now, few people if any know exactly what has happened in Beslan. Right now, it's time to mourn these children and the other hostages and to show our support to the victims and their families.

[ran 0]

Give them the 12 Prisoners, let them go away even if they take some hostages with them and toast them afterwards.

Think...1200 hostages in danger or maybe 50 when they were getting away with the prisoners they demanded. What would be your choice ?

Keeping in mind that the situation was in it´s third day already, the negotiators could have been a bit more flexible don´t you think ?

Why didn´t they give them the 12 in question and rock their asses afterwards ?

I´m maybe a bit too much wetback here, but I would have no problem telling them anything they want to hear and give them the prisoners , let them move away...even with some hostages and kill them. Easy as that.

Edit: Not to mention the hunt that started afterwards....sorry but coordinated moves look very different. At least an area where a hostage situation takes place should be encirceled...

I´m sorry, but russian forces again didn´t act like professionals. My opinion by the status of knowledge I have right now.

It's Russia, i'm not confident in the negotiators' abilities and the supportand logistics infrastructure.

You're right about the direction of the negociations, but were they led by negociators as we see them in western Europe or just government officials ? were these negociators under the pressure of their leaders ?

(let's add to this that even if they are fantastic warriors, the actually russians aren't renowned for the quality of their military on the sides of the training, leadership and logistics.)

Giving in with the captors demands can be considered as a failure. Keep also in mind that the said captors were apparently extyremists whose interest wasn't in escaping the school but to make some kind of point, shocking the audience by doing as much victims as possible and we don't know how they would have reacted if their demands had been fulfilled (they could have triggered explosives put inside the school either from a distance with remote controlled explosive devices in the taste of the ones used in the Madrid bombings or simply by some fanatic left behind) thus causing as much and maybe more casualties amongst the hostages.

And as far as I know, a security perimeter had been set up around the school block by Mahra troops but the school block contained several residential buildings, now to know wether the terrorsts pierced through the security perimeter or just set up in one of the nearest buildings, I don't know.

I'm having a hard time making sense tonight ... I shoudl sleep a little bit heh ....

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

I have only senn 2 Amblances in the last news on TV

[Bernadotte 0]

I have a question for anyone who has read through this entire thread:

Is there any discussion about the essential dispute that lies at the root of this attrocity?

Has anyone posted anything about why Chechnya wants independence and why Russia is denying it?

Most of the posts I've read so far are full of emotion and insist that Russia should be doing what it's actually already been doing for years.  If anyone has posted some original suggestions for ending this nightmare I'd really like to read them.

[Bordoy 0]

I have a question for anyone who has read through this entire thread:

Is there any discussion about the essential dispute that lies at the root of this attrocity?

Has anyone posted anything about why Chechnya wants independence and why Russia is denying it?

Most of the posts I've read so far are full of emotion and insist that Russia should be doing what it's actually already been doing for years.  If anyone has posted some original suggestions for ending this nightmare I'd really like to read them.

Well i doubt they will give them independance due to the fact that if the did they would be giving in to terrorism and shows that it works.

[Bernadotte 0]

Well i doubt they will give them independance due to the fact that if the did they would be giving in to terrorism and shows that it works.

Is it fair for the actions of a few radicals to harm the disposition of the vast majority of people in Chechnya?

Or are you convinced that most of them support terrorism?

[denoir 0]

The simple perspective of an attack of this kind in western Europe frightens me. We have no meens to fight back and preserve the lives of the hostages if something went down the way it did in Russia in the hospital, the theater and the school.

Apart from the technical execution of a hostage rescue (which is extremely difficult since you start at a point where the terrorist are in complete control) there is the question if such scenarios can be avoided altogether.

The bad news is that they can't. In an open society anybody who wants to hurt a lot of people can do it without too much trouble. Without completely removing the freedoms and liberties of the citizens, there is no way of directly preventing any attacks on schools, public transportation, malls etc

So anybody determined can do a lot of nasty things.

The good news is that we in Europe don't have to worry about such things too much. Of course you'll always have homicidal individuals but that is a limited problem. Beyond that, if you look at the terrorist actions around the world, they are almost exlusively linked to some political cause. And in general we don't invade, occupy etc other countries. There are exceptions of course (for instance the Madrid bombing) - and those exceptions follow the exact pattern: political motivation. And it reinforces the simple fact that unless you want people to mess with you, don't mess with them.

We're of course very fortunate to have a stable situation, few territorial issues etc

It's difficult to say what Russia should do now. I fully understand that they're not very happy about compromising their territorial integrity. The problem is that it seems to be a dead end. At this point bombing Grozny would probably be a popular measure, but in the end it would lead to new attacks on Russian civilians. It's a well-worn cliché that violence feeds violence, but a very true one. Unless the Russians are willing to kill indiscriminately everybody in the region (which I very much doubt), there is little that can be done to prevent such terrorism. Anybody can be a terrorist and it requires almost no resources.

At the same time they can't let terrorists kill hundreds of children and let them get away with it.

It's a bad situation either way. Perhaps they should "solve" it Bush style, by invading Romania.  

On a larger time scale, I just see a complete Russian pull-out from Chechnia as a solution. There is no guarantee that it is a permanent solution though, especially if Chechnia remains as unstable politically as it is now. Independence is not a magical solution to all problems.

[Bordoy 0]

Well i doubt they will give them independance due to the fact that if the did they would be giving in to terrorism and shows that it works.

Is it fair for the actions of a few radicals to harm the disposition of the vast majority of people in Chechnya?

Or are you convinced that most of them support terrorism?

Well Israel is doing the same thing wih Palestine. I dont think most of them are terrorists but wasn't that one of their demands?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is there any discussion about the essential dispute that lies at the root of this attrocity?

there has been a heated debate about it ,and many times beofre wich usually mounts in that much frustration that the participaters just give up.

As to a sollution apart from the obvious set chechnia free?

Well the wahabist fundamentalists lead by Shamil Basayev (the ones actually responsible for all those terrorist attacks ,or otherwise the terrorists wing of the chechen seperatists) have such strong connections with Al-Quaida that fighting them is fighting al-quaida and vice versa ,so Russia should really work more toghether with the USA to combat a group that is highly interconnected and make use of the same funds and training facility's. (up to this point Russia always wanted to deal itself with it's own problems ,not much coorperation there)

Another thing is to force country's like Saudi Arabia to crack down on fundamentalist Wahabi clerics that spread hate ,something that has improved since Al-Quaida began to target normal Saudi's in Saudi Arabia rather than only westeners.

Then there are the Madrassa's in Afhanistan and the country's around them ,usually these Madrassa's were founded by Saudi money and many of those Wahabi schools spread the fundamentalist doctrine's among the people send to it ,doctrine's used by Al-Quaida to motivate their men for terrorist attacks.

Hitting those organizations in their funds and manpower seems about the only possible thing you can do.

Then again ,if Russia could find the number of Basayev's cellphone ,well ,scud awaaayyy! Though i think those guys use other ways of communication now.If you think regular Al-Quaida members are highly trained and organized ,then youll be surprized by the organization and morale of veteran Chechen commando's who reverted to the Wahabi fundamentalist fate.

Personally i always regarded the Chechen regular guerilla's as far more effeciant and better organized troops than russian Spetsnatz for ex. .chechen guerilla's are probably of the most veteran forces around the world.

Quote[/b] ]The good news is that we in Europe don't have to worry about such things too much. Of course you'll always have homicidal individuals but that is a limited problem. Beyond that, if you look at the terrorist actions around the world, they are almost exlusively linked to some political cause. And in general we don't invade, occupy etc other countries. There are exceptions of course (for instance the Madrid bombing) - and those exceptions follow the exact pattern: political motivation. And it reinforces the simple fact that unless you want people to mess with you, don't mess with them.

Quite right ,i surely aint expecting a terrorist attack in Belgium ,while our security forces tend to train on it (lol to belgian security forces ,bunch of guys fat by beer and fries ,wouldn't be able to strom a building windows and doors would be to narrow) it's not that many Belgians are expecting anything here.Even with "high profile" institutions we havve in Belgium like Nato headquarters etc.

Quote[/b] ]It's a bad situation either way. Perhaps they should "solve" it Bush style, by invading Romania.

Rofl ,wrong target ,kazachstan is more "interresting".    

[ran 0]

I agree Denoir, but who knows what the future is going to be like with all these different flavours of extremisim appearing and spreading all over the world.

If it has happened before, it can and will happen again.

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's a bad situation either way. Perhaps they should "solve" it Bush style, by invading Romania.

Why Romania? Why is it Bush style?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's a bad situation either way. Perhaps they should "solve" it Bush style, by invading Romania.

Why Romania? Why is it Bush style?

Yay to constructive debates. To graphicly represent my reaction:

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's a bad situation either way. Perhaps they should "solve" it Bush style, by invading Romania.

Why Romania? Why is it Bush style?

Yay to constructive debates. To graphicly represent my reaction:

Whats ur reaction like in words, wait, maybe i don't want to know.

I think want denoir means that US invaded Iraq "for" war on terror? You could of said that.

[Garcia 0]

Give them the 12 Prisoners, let them go away even if they take some hostages with them and toast them afterwards.

Think...1200 hostages in danger or maybe 50 when they were getting away with the prisoners they demanded. What would be your choice ?

Keeping in mind that the situation was in it´s third day already, the negotiators could have been a bit more flexible don´t you think ?

Why didn´t they give them the 12 in question and rock their asses afterwards ?

I´m maybe a bit too much wetback here, but I would have no problem telling them anything they want to hear and give them the prisoners , let them move away...even with some hostages and kill them. Easy as that.

Edit: Not to mention the hunt that started afterwards....sorry but coordinated moves look very different. At least an area where a hostage situation takes place should be encirceled...

I´m sorry, but russian forces again didn´t act like professionals. My opinion by the status of knowledge I have right now.

If you give in to their demands that will most likely only lead to more terrorism...cause if you do other terrorists will see that their demands is fulfilled. And as Ran said, they would most likely kill loads of the hostages anyway. I mean, if you go into a school taking over 1000 hostages, most of them children, you can't really think you will get out of it alive.

Anyway, I do understand that ppl think the russian forces acted badly, but as I've understood it they had no other choice than to storm the school. And I don't think they did too bad. After all, there were a lot of hostages, and since the bombs that went off were in the gymnasium, where most (or all?) hostages were, many of the dead was possibly killed because of the bombs. And when you got about 30 terrorists among 1000 hostages, it is very hard to keep the hostages out of harms way. Though, they should really managed to, in one way or another, hold the civilian outside the perimiter the whole time. I doubt the civilians fireing at the school helped much, and I doubt the civilians running around in every direction helped.

Quote[/b] ]At this point bombing Grozny would probably be a popular measure, but in the end it would lead to new attacks on Russian civilians. It's a well-worn cliché that violence feeds violence, but a very true one.

That wouldn't helped much though. It would only lead to more terrorism and it would make the rest of the world go against Russia. You can't start bombing civilians because of terrorism.

[soul_assassin 1747]

I have a question for anyone who has read through this entire thread:

Is there any discussion about the essential dispute that lies at the root of this attrocity?

Has anyone posted anything about why Chechnya wants independence and why Russia is denying it?

Most of the posts I've read so far are full of emotion and insist that Russia should be doing what it's actually already been doing for years.  If anyone has posted some original suggestions for ending this nightmare I'd really like to read them.

its a simple answer:

the Legitimate government of Chechniya AND MAJORITY does NOT want independance because it is not self sufficient. Rebels and now known arab mercinaries are fighting for the hell of it, there is lots of money in that war.

[Bordoy 0]

I have a question for anyone who has read through this entire thread:

Is there any discussion about the essential dispute that lies at the root of this attrocity?

Has anyone posted anything about why Chechnya wants independence and why Russia is denying it?

Most of the posts I've read so far are full of emotion and insist that Russia should be doing what it's actually already been doing for years.  If anyone has posted some original suggestions for ending this nightmare I'd really like to read them.

its a simple answer:

the Legitimate government of Chechniya AND MAJORITY does NOT want independance because it is not self sufficient. Rebels and now known arab mercinaries are fighting for the hell of it, there is lots of money in that war.

I heard that the Chechen Economy is in a very bad state and cant get worse.

[walker 0]

I dont believe in those constant coincidences.

Are you people seriously believing that the russian forces werent cooking anything when they came to extract the wounded?  

Hi Albert

Coincidences happen all the time it is why proper safety procedures are always at least tripple redundant. I work as a climbing instructor.

There was only one coincidence the woman set her self off at the time they came for the dead civilians.

They were not extracting the wounded they were extracting the dead civilians who had been on the grass for 2 days. That the Russians had plans to use the collection of the dead as an intell gathering oportunity I do not doubt. That is SOP but it clearly was not a planned assault. Planned assaults take place at night around 3am to 4 am. They had picked up two bodies when the black widow blew herself up.

I watched the first interview with a girl who had just escaped she described to a UK ITN reporter what happened. This was in the first few minutes of every thing.

She Said: One of the women in the gym detonated herself the woman was in among the youngest chidren 5 to 7 year olds. Then about 30 of the kids including her she was about 10 years old ran out in the panic. They got out of the room in the confusion. The Terrorists machine-gunned them as they started running away. They are her words.

Reports from the Russian forces are that the Russians returned fire to protect the children. The terrorists also shot and killed 4 of the emergency workers and wounded two others.

It was at this point that the Russian emergency plan went into effect. They breeched the gym wall with a breaching charge. Many of the suviving children escaped at that point. Then rammed a BTR through the door in the corner of the court yard.

It was not even a proper emergency plan they had only been there 2 days, there was no proper perimeter, the Alpha Team were not there. (Biggest error) Proper emergency assault SOP is multi level, multi aspect with lots of distractions. There were no ladders and only one aspect the gym area which was the flash point.

The Russians had no assault planned while gathering the bodies, the terrorists had agreed to it so would have been on maximum alert; nobody plans an assault when the enemy is at their most alert.

As to the 'woman' herself. One child witness said the she set the bomb off by moving aparently it was set to go off if she moved. A woman who was freed the day before said that the bombs the women had were set as dead man switches. She also said the other bombs were suspended from the roof. They were clusters of plastic bottled filled with explosive and metal fragments suspended from basket ball hoops.

While I commend your willingness to look on a government with suspision, I think in this case you are stretching it a little too far.

Kind Regards Walker