theavonlady 2 Posted August 12, 2004 Quote[/b] ]France remembers 'forgotten D-day' Tourists soaking up the sun on the beaches of the glittering French Riviera this weekend will have to make room for hundreds of ageing war veterans commemorating one of the Second World War’s least-remembered battles – Operation Dragoon. They are veterans of what some historians call the forgotten D-day, the near-flawless landings of 350,000 Allied soldiers in southern France 10 weeks after their comrades waded into Normandy. “The Normandy landings were a spectacular operation that everyone knows about, and we commemorate it with enormous fanfare,†said French historian Andre Kaspi. “Then, there are the Provence landings that are more or less forgotten.†Compared to the D-Day anniversary hoopla in June – attended by US President George Bush, the Queen of England and others – the commemorations of the Provence landings on Saturday and Sunday will be distinctly low key. As part of 60th anniversary celebrations that started in June, France is paying official thanks to the southern invasion with a weekend of ceremonies. President Jacques Chirac caps the tributes on Sunday aboard an aircraft carrier with leaders of African nations whose soldiers fought for the Allies. Former US staff sergeant John Shirley, who stormed ashore the Cote d’Azur on August 15, 1944, will be among veterans invited aboard the Charles de Gaulle battleship. “Maybe it was a sideline to the big fights up north, but it was a very important invasion,†said Shirley, 79, of Livermore, California. French defence minister Michele Alliot-Marie will pin nine American veterans with the Legion of Honour, France’s most prestigious decoration, on Saturday in a ceremony at the Rhone American Cemetery in Draguignan, overlooking the graves of 861 soldiers who fell during the landings and in the weeks that followed. La Motte, north of St Tropez, was the first village liberated in Provence and will host the weekend’s first ceremony on Saturday. Nine British veterans will receive the Legion of Honour. History books and many veterans recall thin German resistance to the invasion, but the chaos of battle has prevented a definitive Allied death toll. The French defence ministry says more than 350,000 soldiers participated and 1,300 Allied soldiers died in the operation’s first two days. They overcame mines and gunfire, pushing north more rapidly than expected. The invasion’s success was measured in concrete terms. Hitler ordered German forces to retreat from the south on August 17 – two days after Operation Dragoon started. Allied troops liberated the important port cities of Toulon and Marseille in late August, and took France’s second-largest city of Lyon on September 3. Winston Churchill had resisted Operation Dragoon to the last, preferring to focus Allied strength in the north. The Americans prevailed, arguing that a pincer movement would overwhelm Hitler’s defences. Charles de Gaulle also pushed for Operation Dragoon, eager for French troops to play a major role in liberating Toulon and Marseille after having been all but absent from the Normandy invasion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real Armstrong 0 Posted August 12, 2004 Forgotten in history, forgotten in forum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted August 12, 2004 It's forgotten in America because it's a shining beacon of French and American cooperation. People don't like to thing about us getting along here. I'm gonna go back and eat my "freedom fries" now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted August 12, 2004 Haha, however did your two countries ever come to such a state eh? I mean, us Brits and Frenchies have been at it for years, but we have a war that lasted 100 years between us as an excuse, what do you have As for myself, i had never heard of this landing. I always thought the troops just came up through Italy and into the underbelly of France that way, but as you may be able to tell, i'm no WW2 historian. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sputnik monroe 102 Posted August 13, 2004 I gotta agree with you about the British and the French having a history. I'm not quite sure why the French hate America so much. Though France started hating the US years ago (I can't pinpoint the exact time but at least since before I was born)Most Americans didn't start recipracating the hate until now. Personally It baffles me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoOB 0 Posted August 13, 2004 Psh, it's not hate I'd say. More like brotherly love or something It's like with the nordic countries, Swedes joke about Danes, Danes joke about Swedes and so forth and so forth. Despite every Swede saying "I wish we could invade Denmark and stop those whinging sods" it's not like we mean that we actually want to invade them.... And I never knew about the Southern invasions, guess I need to read some more Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soul_assassin 1747 Posted August 13, 2004 Maybe this explanes the low altitude circling C47 with Normandy lines above The Hague today morning. Almost fell off my bike when i saw it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevevcb 3 Posted August 13, 2004 You can say "Everyone from [insert country] hates [insert country]" all you want, but it's not true. It's impossible to say that you hate a country until you've met every person there and decided that you dislike them all. There are good and bad people everywhere. And on topic, this is the first time I heard of these landings. It's sort of how the Italian campaign is overshadowed by North Africa and the Western and Eastern Fronts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denoir 0 Posted August 13, 2004 I gotta agree with you about the British and the French having a history. I'm not quite sure why the French hate America so much. Â Â Though France started hating the US years ago (I can't pinpoint the exact time but at least since before I was born)Most Americans didn't start recipracating the hate until now. Â Â Personally It baffles me. It's not at all strange. It's because you have both very strong nationalistic tendencies. The French want to be the leader, promoting their culture world-wide as they used to and get very annoyed by you exporting your culutre to them. IMO France is even a tad worse in that respect than the US. Don't take me wrong - I think they are an excellent counterpart today, voicing an independent opinion, but from a cultural hegemony point of view, they would make an even worse superpower than America. What you have in common is the nationalism and the firm belief of the superiority of your culture relative others. Now America is in a far more dominant position today so France's ambitions seldom make any problems. In the prelude of the Iraq war however, the French opinion did matter and most of the world lined up behind France rather than America. Hence the competition became a problem to America and led to a wave of anti-French sentiment. And that resentment was far more overt and direct than what France has ever displayed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Real Armstrong 0 Posted August 13, 2004 We joke about Norwegians you norwegian! Another reason is 'cause chaotic is "entertainment". Why do you think Omaha Beach is the most known beach when the brittish and canadian beaches are almost forgotten? Oh, it might be a bit about uncle sam too. Yanks seem to be the only force on the western front if you look at all the TV-series, books and other media. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cozza 24 Posted August 13, 2004 Though France started hating the US years ago (I can't pinpoint the exact time but at least since before I was born)Most Americans didn't start recipracating the hate until now. Â Â Personally It baffles me. It was when Mr Burns didnt deliver the Trillion Dollor note. Ahh I love the simpsons. Anyway. I read slightly about Operation Dragon but I'm not a WW2 knoweledge person. I like The Gulf war and Grenada Invasion and Panama. That another point. Where are the Grenada invasion mods. It was a bloched Navy seal invasion...........ohh maybe thats why Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Totala 0 Posted October 19, 2004 Hi there - I pick up this topic a bit late but greetings must go (once again) to our AvonLady for quoting such post. WWII was unfortunately a worlwide war, thus making it highly complex, and can't be summed up with a bunch of actions such as Omaha. I guess every single action, including Resistance for instance, was a step forward, a step for peace. Regarding USA and France as very nationalistic countries, it's probably true, however not at all in the same manner. I guess it is too much a political issue to be discussed here, however I wish I could see the USA respecting a bit more the U.N. organization. Peace trought the United Nations Organization was one of the reasons why hundreds of thousands young men died during WWII. Not respecting U.N. decisions is a bit like not respecting those who sacrificed their lives at that time and this includes, British, US, Germans, Spannish, Italians, French,...citizens and soldiers. By the way, I am French and I am far from hating US people; and you can take for granted that I share this feeling with many other Frenchies Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Supah 0 Posted October 19, 2004 It's forgotten in America because it's a shining beacon of French and American cooperation. People don't like to thing about us getting along here. I'm gonna go back and eat my "freedom fries" now... Â Well shining example.... the relationship between de Gaulle and Roosevelt left allot to be desired. Though the armies could work together the leadership was allot less fond of each other. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted October 19, 2004 Quote[/b] ]It's not at all strange. It's because you have both very strong nationalistic tendencies. The French want to be the leader, promoting their culture world-wide as they used to and get very annoyed by you exporting your culutre to them. IMO France is even a tad worse in that respect than the US. Absolutely 100% correct as far as "culture" is concerned. Although I believe the french savoir vivre is slowly gaining back some ground over american convenience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake 0 Posted October 19, 2004 Talking about forgotten battles... Battle of Hürtgen Forest Quote[/b] ]The Battle of  Hürtgen Forest was fought in an area of heavy forestation, of some 50 square miles in an area that begins about 5 miles south and east of Aachen, Germany and falls into a triangle outlined by Aachen, Duren and Monchau.  Although the battle did not officially end until February of 1945, the major part of the Battle of  Hürtgen Forest was fought during the 3 wet, cold, miserable months of  mid-September through mid-December 1944.  The battle claimed 24,000 Americans; killed, missing, captured and wounded, plus another 9,000 who succumbed to trench foot, respiratory diseases and combat fatigue. The Battle of Hürtgen Forest was overshadowed by the American victory in the Battle of the Bulge, and as a result, few books and articles have been written about it. http://www.hurtgen1944.homestead.com/ But then again putting things into context... Operation Bagration Quote[/b] ]June 22 - August 19, 1944: Overall the annihilation of Army Group Centre cost the Germans 2,000 tanks, 57,000 thousand other vehicles and over 150,000 soldiers. Soviet losses were 770,888 casualties, 2,957 tanks, 2,447 artillery pieces, and 822 planes.The German army never recovered from the materiel and manpower loses sustained during this time. Named after General Petr Bagration, who died at the Battle of Borodino. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted October 19, 2004 psst Düren / Monschau (just for future references) Thats right where I lived when I was young and the forests are still full of crates, ammunition, an all sorts of Wehrmacht equippment there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
