Manhunt game withdrawn from UK Store

[John C Flett 0]

Its a tragic thing but I'm more alarmed by the bad reporting of the events. I've seen press and TV coverage today full of reports that 'Manhunt' led to the killing as if it was the only factor in the murder. Yes there are striking similarities and it shouldn't be dismissed just because as games players we don't like it.

What I do find more disturbing is that I have only seen one brief mention of the small detail that the killer was a serious drug addict who by his own admission set out to rob the victim so that he could pay back debts to his drug dealer. MAyby not as good a headline but kind of changes the nature of the crime doesn't it?

[Pathy 0]

I dont think are dismissing it, we are more saying, that violent or not, its not the fault of the games industry, and provided it was given a suitable rating, not the fault of the ratings board. It lies squarely at the fault of the parents who neglected to do anything or stop this kid getting this game.

But yes, drugs adds a whole new aspect. I appreciate it can be very hard for a parent (esp a single parent) to have time to do all that is necessary, and it is not always their fault, especially in the case of drugs. My own older brother is a recovering Herion addict, of no fault of my parents, they could not control what he did with himself once he turned 18, even though i think thier parenting is on the whole very good.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Yes there are striking similarities and it shouldn't be dismissed just because as games players we don't like it.

Balls. It is not being dismissed because we don't like it (although we don't) - its being dismissed because its nonsense.

Some greek elders tried to get a ban on popular music of the time in about 62 BCE 'because they caused a lowering of morals' etc.

When photography was available to the masses, it was claimed to cause the same things.

When cinema took off, it was claimed to cause the same things.

When home television took off, it was claimed to cause the same things.

When home video recorders became commercially available, it was claimed to cause the same things.

Now the whiney 'conservative' (as in 'dont want things to change') types are claiming the same utter shite about games.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Well i'm 18 so it doesn't matter to me

It does though- what if this type of shite leads to games rated over 18 not being sold in shops. That would include OFP2, and probably any other game you want in the future, which would mean companies would stop making so many of them.

[John C Flett 0]

Actually, I didn't mean we were dismissing. But this issue will continue for a long time and we need to be prepared to talk about it honestly. God knows the guys on the other side won't so we can try to show more class and intelligence than them.

I don't believe for a minute that games or films or these other things are to blame. They can however influence the way these incidents manifest. The use of the claw hammer does appear to be a connection, though equally there's a new Korean film 'Old guy' which has creative use of a claw hammer. Shift this a couple of months in time and the Koreans could be getting the blame.

This is not the first case where an apparent game link has turned up. There was a cinema shooting in San Paolo some time back where the gunman put one bullet into the mirror before going on his spree. It was lifted out of Duke Nukem and seems to have been a very real influence on a guy who also, as it happens, was a drug addict.

I think that games can have an influence on people who are of a certain mindset and while the same can be said of books or music or anything else it doesn't absolve the games industry when it makes cheap sensational crap.

I've seen too many games magazines lately boasting "the most violent game ever". If this industry doesn't want to take the blame for things it goes about it in a funny way. If 'Manhunt' had been a better game it might have been less likely to have caught this flack. GTA 3 managed to rise above these complaints because of its quality. Likewise OFP. It's violent but it was never about the violence, even with the blood mod and quite massive body counts.

The film industry went through this with the video nasty business but it also grew out of it and seems to escape from finger pointing now. Mayby a few software houses might take a few lessons from them and start producing things with a bit more merit on the back of this. We need to find a gaming Scorcese or Tarantino to change the way violence works in this field. Then the press might start to show a more mature response to the issue rather than responding to sensationalist crap with sensationalist crap.

Or perhaps I expect too much of the press.

[buggs 0]

Well to be honest, i also think its a result of bad parenting. A young kid cant walk into a store and buy an 18 rated game. The parents must have known.

You'd be amazed at how many parents actually buy 18 cert games and dvd's for their kids. I work in a shop that sells dvd's/games and the amount of times we get young under aged kids coming to the counter with these 18cert products is amazing. We always refuse to serve them but 9 times out of 10 they'll come back within minutes with their parents in tow to buy these products.

In the beginning of 2003 (between Jan & march) i must have pointed out to at least 100 parents that the game/dvd they were buying for their child was an 18 cert and out of the 100 i can only remember 3 being bothered about it. The usual response is that they've played it before or that they have played it at their cousins. These parents simply aren't Bothered. As far as they are concerned they are buying peace & quite.

As a foot note the average age that we see parents buying 18 cert games/dvd's for is about 9 years old. We had a person who bought their daughter a dvd called 28 days (Brit zombie flick). we reckon she was about 7 years old........scary stuff

[HOBOMAN 0]

there is only so much the law can limit, the rest is up to respoisble parents.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I don't believe for a minute that games or films or these other things are to blame. They can however influence the way these incidents manifest. The use of the claw hammer does appear to be a connection, though equally there's a new Korean film 'Old guy' which has creative use of a claw hammer. Shift this a couple of months in time and the Koreans could be getting the blame.

This is not the first case where an apparent game link has turned up. There was a cinema shooting in San Paolo some time back where the gunman put one bullet into the mirror before going on his spree. It was lifted out of Duke Nukem and seems to have been a very real influence on a guy who also, as it happens, was a drug addict.

I think that games can have an influence on people who are of a certain mindset and while the same can be said of books or music or anything else it doesn't absolve the games industry when it makes cheap sensational crap.

Ummm. Yes, it does. The games industry, like the film industry, like the 'book industy' makes what sells. What idiots with little grasp of reality do is neither the authors fault, the actors fault, the screenwriters fault, the artists fault nor the programmers fault. There is no absolution needed; it is NOTHING to do with these industries what psychopaths do. The psychopaths may (still not proven) be influenced by the industries: they are definitely not created by the industries. They may use a claw hammer instead of an aluminium baseball bat; they are still crazies and they are not created by playing games.

There are millions of people playing games; these supposed 'murder trainers.' BUT, the rate of crazies going apeshit and killing others is NOT getting higher. News companies make a bigger deal about individual incidents but the actual rate per head of population is not rising at what it would be if there was the slightest truth to this pseudoscientific crap.

In other words: if the claims of crazies like Joe Lieberman were true, we'd all be out killing people. Yes, even you Avon; we do play a realistic 'murder simulator.'

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I've seen too many games magazines lately boasting "the most violent game ever".

And? You have a problem with the press now? The magazines are NOT the games makers. The makers make what sells.

Quote[/b] ]

If this industry doesn't want to take the blame for things it goes about it in a funny way. If 'Manhunt' had been a better game it might have been less likely to have caught this flack. GTA 3 managed to rise above these complaints because of its quality. Likewise OFP. It's violent but it was never about the violence, even with the blood mod and quite massive body counts.

You might not like it, but that doesn't mean it should be banned. Have you even played manhunt? (I haven't - but then I'm not complaining about its quality)

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The film industry went through this with the video nasty business but it also grew out of it and seems to escape from finger pointing now.

BECAUSE THE SAME FUCKTARDS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT GAMES NOW

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Mayby a few software houses might take a few lessons from them and start producing things with a bit more merit on the back of this. We need to find a gaming Scorcese or Tarantino to change the way violence works in this field. Then the press might start to show a more mature response to the issue rather than responding to sensationalist crap with sensationalist crap.

It is not so much the press as these know-nothing pressure groups. They would not see the difference between manhunt and OFP, to be honest.

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Or perhaps I expect too much of the press.

[Balschoiw 0]

I think the game developers also have big responsibilitie. Not everything that is technically photorealistic possible should be done in games. There should be some kind of self-control first. Then I´m ok with a govermental age limit. Why not ? Can´t hurt. As long as people over 18 can get what they want it´s ok.

But I think teams that developed Manhunt (a really disgusting game, tasteless and disgusting, I don´t need such nor I don´t want such ) or Postal 2 celebrate the method of killing with weird weapons in a very unhuman and disturbing way.

This should be forbidden.

What´s next ? Ripping up bodies of little children ?

Sorry I don´t want to go there.

I don´t need such sick stuff.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I don't like CS; I don't need such stuff. A really tasteless and disgusting game: I think it should be forbidden.

'I don't like OFP; I don't need such stuff. A really tasteless and disgusting game: I think it should be forbidden.'

Just because we might not like something, does not mean it shoud be banned.

Censorship is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Parents should take responsibility for their children, and adults should be able to decide things for themselves, not have it enforced on them.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]What´s next ? Ripping up bodies of little children ?

You can all ready run over kids and beat them up in the Simpsons: Hit & Run...

[Madus_Maximus 0]

Nobody accepts blame anymore, it's always down to something or someone else, it's never the fault of the people who commit the crimes or those who are supposedly responsible. If anything the parents should be punished for letting their children play or view material which has been deemed too old for them, maybe that'd set an example and make others care more about what it is they're actually doing.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just because we might not like something, does not mean it shoud be banned.

No, I dont say such. I just say that I don´t need such games. They are beyond a limit for me.

That´s just my solo standing golden opinion, nothing else

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just because we might not like something, does not mean it shoud be banned.

No, I dont say such. I just say that I don´t need such games. They are beyond a limit for me.

That´s just my solo standing golden opinion, nothing else

Ummm..

Quote ]This should be forbidden.

[/b]

Did someone else write that into your post?

[Balschoiw 0]

Yes

Quote[/b] ]Postal 2 celebrate the method of killing with weird weapons in a very unhuman and disturbing way

It´s my opinion that games wich celebrate manslaughter in a very disturbing way should be forbidden.

As snuff videos are forbidden.

Can you see the diffence anymore ?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Snuff films are forbidden because they involve ACTUALLY killing people.

Games are NOT real. Do you see the difference?

NO censorship. That doesn't mean that you can break other laws in order to make films, or games, or whatever.

[Balschoiw 0]

You can´t argue my opinion away. What´s your point ? It´s my opinion and I stand with it.

If you´ve read my entry properly you´d seen that I think that developers have a responsibility. And I stand by that. There´s a market for any sick idea, but does that mean we have to visualize that ? Only because it will sell and contains "Incredibly real gfx of 1000 different deaths" ?

Don´t you get what I´m trying to say ?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Well I don't think I really understand you. You seem to be saying 'some games should be banned because I don't like them.'

I have a problem with that statement.

I do not have a problem with 'I don't like such games and I will never buy one like it.'

If that is what you mean, then I don't have a problem with it nor any wish to argue.

[Heatseeker 0]

The "kid" was 17 , i think normal 17 year old teens should be mature enough to play violent video games, atleast i guess i would have, but then again every case is a case and every person is unique. If it wasnt for the game what would have been the excuse then Horror movies? 17 year olders are not old enough to see those too?

It depends mostly of the individual, there are bad people in the world we live and it would have happened sooner or later.

Society doesnt accept the fact that a cute little boy grows into a cold blooded killer? Well unfortunetly it happens and no, i dont know why. Who to blame? Society? video games and movies? Music or bad parents? I say blame nature... it is filled with violence and thats just the way it is!

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

You can´t argue my opinion away. What´s your point ? It´s my opinion and I stand with it.

If you´ve read my entry properly you´d seen that I think that developers have a responsibility. And I stand by that. There´s a market for any sick idea, but does that mean we have to visualize that ? Only because it will sell and contains "Incredibly real gfx of 1000 different deaths" ?

Don´t you get what I´m trying to say ?

Another thing to consider Bals:

I really don't see the appeal of this particular game. I don't want to play it. But I cannot see how you would make a law, or edict, or whatever that would stop this game and not stop almost any other 18 rated game.

The key thing here is that once you start censoring things, there is a VERY slippery slope. Its far better to have people that can think for themselves and follow a simple age recommendation, than to start banning things left right and centre.

I think my point is made, but other examples:

Give me a law that would stop 'sick' films that glorify violence, are very distasteful and all that stuff, but would not stop any of these films:

Apocalypse Now

The Godfather

Goodfellas

Scarface

Platoon

The Silence of the Lambs

Alien

Leon

Kill Bill

Reservoir Dogs

The list goes on and on.

Censorship is a BAD idea, except for matters of national security and even then I'm against it.

[Frisbee 0]

Again : how is this the fault of videogames?

It's rated 18, he was underage, still got it, hence it is the parents fault.

End of the line. Even if you don't take care of your children you're still responsible.

[The Frenchman 0]

Please! I played Primal Rage, a fighting game, since I was 7 and I turned out alright......

>_>

<_<

*shoots venom and teleports*

But seriously, I have known people who played games more than me and they turned out alright. I mean, videogames didn't INVENT violence.

[John C Flett 0]

Quote[/b] ]And? You have a problem with the press now? The magazines are NOT the games makers. The makers make what sells.

With respect Baron, you seem to be placing words in my mouth. I didn't say the magazines made the games, I didn't say the games caused the incident and I didn't call for anything to be banned.

However, the games magazines and the software houses are part of the same industry and both are pushing sensationalsim for the sake of it. My complaint though is not that the games are violent but that violence is all they have to sell them.

I'm not wanting an end to violent games, I want them to make good games. I want to see magazines boasting "the BEST shooter ever". As far as I'm aware a lot of these titles like 'Manhunt' are not especially big sellers once people realise how poor the games are. I've certainly not played 'Manhunt' because every review I've seen said clumsy, limited and shallow. 'Vice City' on the other hand I played through to the end and enjoyed. I've got more than enough violent games and movies in my collection. I would primarily describe them as good games and videos though.

Pressure groups don't place these stories on front pages. And we have to assume that all the journalists knew the facts in the case. The past couple of days have been slow news days in the UK and this was just a good sensationalist story which editors made a decision to push. We've also had a lot of coverage about flying ant invasions which shows how much real news they had.

[Pathy 0]

As i already said, it doesnt matter how bad the game is or how violent it is, if the ratings system is ignored, then its the fault of the parents.

The ratings system is there as the safety barrier. AFAIK they can also ban games certainly, Carmagedon was banned initially in its day (until they made it zombies with green blood lol).

If the game is given an 18 cert and parents let a younger kid play it, as Buggs, the guy who worked in a store selling games and DVD's said, "for a few hours of peace and quiet" while their child plays this game, then that smacks to me of negligent parenting.....give your child adult material just so it will shut them up? Because the parents cant be bothered to do thier responsibility (and lets face it, if your going to have children, then you take on the responsibility to look after them) of looking after thier child properly.

The real issue therefore, isnt about certification or the games industry, because as far as i can see, if the guidelines are followed, then its absolutely fine. Its about parents following those guidelines.

Right. As i said and Baron said, if you start messing with the censoring system, you start screwing it up. The way the press talk at the moment, you may as well not give games ratings, because everyone has access to them, therefore, you cannot have any violent games because kids will get thier hands on them. Sounds retarded, doesnt it? But the press seem not to think so.....infact, ive heard not ONE analysis of the ratings system and that the game shouldnt have been in the kids hands anyway but for the parents. Of course when the press are on a witch hunt, they tend to ignore other things, like the drugs motive.....

ANYWAY, i must stop myself rambing on anymore

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ] You seem to be saying 'some games should be banned because I don't like them.'

I have a problem with that statement.

No, I don´t seem to be saying that. You´re trying to make it look like that but I don´t say such.

And as I made no statement like that you´re obviously having a problem with something you are trying to make up. As I said . Read my posts.