International Politics Thread

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]So you're saying that you prescribe to the conspiracy theory that the Republican party ordered Dick Cheney to start the war between Georgia and Russia to get John McCain elected?

no, not me. You just did :-)

My personal opinion is: They need some escalation, but small one, not war. They didn’t expect that idiot to bomb slipping city at night.  They didn’t expect Russian to humiliate Georgian army in couple hours. They train them for last 6 years. They must be “showcase†for all others. Instead we see how remaining “solders†drop their weapons and run away. Leave even civilians behind.

There many “players†watching that conflict right now.  They pissed because this “paper tiger†image will be hard to fight from now on.

I am wandering what 1 millions Georgian illegal workers in Russia will do now? When they broke diplomatic relation, do they forget that 40% Georgia budget = money who Georgian working (illegally or legally) in Russia sending home.

[scubaman3D 0]

Quote[/b] ]So you're saying that you prescribe to the conspiracy theory that the Republican party ordered Dick Cheney to start the war between Georgia and Russia to get John McCain elected?

no, not me. You just did :-)

My personal opinion is: They need some escalation, but small one, not war. They didn’t expect that idiot to bomb slipping city at night.  They didn’t expect Russian to humiliate Georgian army in couple hours. They train them for last 6 years. They must be “showcase†for all others. Instead we see how remaining “solders†drop their weapons and run away. Leave even civilians behind.

There many “players†watching that conflict right now.  They pissed because this “paper tiger†image will be hard to fight from now on. Quit opposite.

I am wandering what 1 millions Georgian illegal workers in Russia will do now? When they broke diplomatic relation, do they forget that 40% Georgia budget = money who Georgian working (illegally or legally) in Russia sending home.

I'm not sure, but I think the language barrier between us it too much to have this type of conversation.

And anyways, I wouldn't call loosing what, 6 fighters, and taking 64 casualties and 350 wounded in 4 days against a vastly inferior military as an awesome display of power. Those numbers don't take into account the "voulenteer" thugs that the Russians armed and transported to Georgia either.

At least NATO can now analyze the weaknesses of the Russian military.

Sure, in the long run, the Russians could have taken the entire country - it was a completely lopsided fight, but I wan't really impressed, given the resources involved.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]vastly inferior military

LOL. now they vastly inferior Where is a previous glory ?

I wondering how you call 300 mostly unarm Iraqis who manage to stay undefeated for 5 years, Spartans ?

Quote[/b] ]Sure, in the long run, the Russians could have taken the entire country

Most likely 2 more hours at most..

[ShadowY 0]

Quote[/b] ]vastly inferior military

LOL. now they vastly inferior Where is a previous glory ?

I wondering how you call 300 mostly unarm Iraqis who manage to stay undefeated for 5 years, Spartans ?

Quote[/b] ]Sure, in the long run, the Russians could have taken the entire country

Most likely 2 more hours at most..

Check your signature AKM?

You can`t defeat stupidity and ignorance...this guy thinks black and white...his opinion is shaped by tv heads.

That`s why he likes the slaughtering of like 90.000 Osettians better as the defeat of a agressive corrupted georgian government and president whom are the @sslicking friends of bush and his governement.

And we all know what friends of the bushes and usa presidents/governements means....Saddam was their friend but oil and money is more important as the spoken word and friends.

With friends like that you don`t need any enemies..STUPID European hypocrites

Better friends with the Russians as with the morons they elect in the usa for president.

Next election we again get 2 morons..one almost senile and the other some people already starting to call the anti christ

[scubaman3D 0]

@AK

I'm calling the Georgian army vastly inferior to the Russian army. Its obvious that the Russians would have completely wiped the Georgian army out if they were allowed to continue.

You dissagree with this?

I know english must be difficult for you so maybe take more time to read before replying?

You're replies have been ambiguous and difficult to understand and I'm not sure if we're even talking about the same thing half the time.

@Shadobug:

Personal attacks add nothing to this conversation. If you can't discuss the ideas without resorting to calling me "stupid, ignorant, and brainwashed", then, stay out of it.

Anyways, this whole debate is really getting tiring. A fools errand in this place.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]That`s why he likes the slaughtering of like 90.000 Osettians better

Pretty much people to be slaughtered, considering that SO only has 70 000 people living there. Whats the 20 000? Maybe russian peacekeepers, or russian volunteers for the rebelforces?

[ShadowY 0]

Quote[/b] ]That`s why he likes the slaughtering of like 90.000 Osettians better

Pretty much people to be slaughtered, considering that SO only has 70 000 people living there. Whats the 20 000? Maybe russian peacekeepers, or russian volunteers for the rebelforces?

I did not had to check wikipedia or something..but now I did...still remains like 99.000 people there, were probably alot of georgians are married with Osettians aswell.

Ossetians, Armenians, Russians, Jews, georgians and over 5000 others makes together 99.000+.

The last count was in 1989 I think. 65.000+ Ossettians.

But that was not the point how many Osettians are livin`there...there is also a North Osettia and alot of them will indeed volunteer as they did in the early `90s.

For the rest I do not care what people come up with to argue about...

The Russians did a fine job to bad they didn`t finish it off and would had arrested the georgian president and his governement.

When the georgian civillians/opposition are smart they throw him out...then we will see his and the usa true faces.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]I never said it was comparable.

All you asked was 'Who in the West opposed Iraq?' I pointed out that quite a few did. When you realised you were wrong you changed your question.

Ok but then we are agreed. Because they shouldn't be compareable. -However-, the Iraq conflict should've affected the US more than what the Georgia one did and does to Russia. Russia acted in self defence and didn't invade any countries. The US has done so like a dozens of times.

NATO members didn't stop their cooperation with the US etc. They stop their cooperation with Russia. Sure relations dropped back then too, but not as much as now.

If you support Georgia, you support their invasion of South Ossetia. You also dismiss the will of the people. They want to be free and have the means. Then let them. What's the reason for supporting the aggressor, Georgia?

[MehMan 0]

I think you're stretching the term self defence. Once they crossed the borders of SO it was no longer self defence.

[Mr_Tea 0]

If you support Georgia, you support their invasion of South Ossetia. You also dismiss the will of the people. They want to be free and have the means. Then let them. What's the reason for supporting the aggressor, Georgia?

The way Russia acts, it must support the people of Tibet too, as they want to be free and have the means.

I bet they will never say to the Chinese government that they should give Tibet independence.

They only support that idea when it fits their needs, and would send the Russian army when an part of Russia would try to become independent.

Who says the the people of South Ossetia where not free before?

Many of them get married to Georgian people, and lived peacefully together without problems.

Sure it leads to an conflict once they claimed independence, and get Russian passports.

[Spokesperson 0]

I think you're stretching the term self defence. Once they crossed the borders of SO it was no longer self defence.

What about the actions of USSR in WW2?

Counter-attacks are part of defence.

Quote[/b] ]The way Russia acts, it must support the people of Tibet too, as they want to be free and have the means.

No why? Russia doesn't support teocratic dictatorships.

Quote[/b] ]Who says the the people of South Ossetia where not free before?

The South Ossetians.

Quote[/b] ] and get Russian passports.

All ex-citizens of the USSR have the right to switch their passports into a Russian one. And so they did.

[echo1 0]

I think you're stretching the term self defence. Once they crossed the borders of SO it was no longer self defence.

What about the actions of USSR in WW2?

Counter-attacks are part of defence.

Wait, when did your "peacekeeping operation" become a world war?

[MehMan 0]

I think you're stretching the term self defence. Once they crossed the borders of SO it was no longer self defence.

What about the actions of USSR in WW2?

Counter-attacks are part of defence.

That's rather hard to compare...

First off, WW2 was a whole other story, second Russia was in SO on a peacekeeping mission, third SO isn't their territory. The moment they crossed the borders of SO they came from from defence to offense.

[Baff1 0]

I think you're stretching the term self defence. Once they crossed the borders of SO it was no longer self defence.

You don't think disarming your aggressor counts as self-defence?

I do.

Artillery can be fired across borders.

Armies that are allowed to retreat and regroup have an uncanny habit of attacking again.

Worse than the regular armies has to be the militamen, with the Georgian army in full flight the Russians then moved around the country securing all the weapons caches they had abandoned.

They acted entirely responsably.

When we defended Kuwait from Saddam, we did the same. We entered into Iraq and degraded his ability to mount another invasion. just becasue his tanks had rolled back across the border didn't mean Kuwait was now safe from them.

I concur that it is not strictly "self"-defence, but it certainly standard peace keeping behaviour.

Laughable to call this an act of agression.

This isn't even an iota of what the Russian military is capable of had they been feeling agressive.

They acted with restraint, not leveled Tblisi.

[MehMan 0]

Once you cross the border and start occupying cities it's pretty much an aggressive action from there forward. Once you clear the buffer zone around the border the strictly peace keeping part of your operation is done. But then again, this is the only effective way of disarming your opponent, but with Russia on SOs side, do you really think Georgia would strike again? Indeed, Russia acted with restrain, as far as what they could have done, but they still over reacted to a significantly weaker enemy. Saying it's self defense is really stretching the term.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Too much national pride, too much prejudice is a breeding ground for escalations. This "preventive action" or escalation made Medwedew look in his country stronger. Someone said russian people need a person who act like an Tsar otherwise they will not respect fully in his authority. Russian soul?

Russian military isnt that good and well upgraded. Big parade and propaganda are only one face of the coin. The other is corruption, low earnings and moral, bureaucracy, old generals and a failed reform.

[Dwarden 1125]

Russia threatens Moldova over Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic that if they will think about any action in this 'separatist region' then Georgia scenario wil repeat again

Nistreană/Transnistria

31.9%, followed by ethnic Russians 30.4%, and Ukrainians 28.8%

---

Russia threatens Ukraine over autonome Crimea area

: Russians: 58.32%; Ukrainians: 24.32%; Crimean Tatars: 12.1%; Belarusians:

Russia feels outraged by Ukraine thinking to get rid of Russian naval base ...

---

i guess after SO and Abchazia you can see the pattern ...

---

but why so complicated?

let me sum it up ...

for Russia atm best would be roll out tanks , take whole Georgia, Ukraine and Moldavia by single massive strike

that way they re-establish theirs buffer zone, EU and USA may whine but can do nothing about as EU got zero forces and USA got own problems ...

if i'm Russian military leader i would do it ... it's worth the risk

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Wait, when did your "peacekeeping operation" become a world war?

That has no significance. It's the same situation. It has happened in a lot of wars, but this one is much more known.

The defenders push the attackers back into their own territory. That doesn't make them aggressors.

You have to destroy airbases, military bases, radars, artillery and all kinds of things that can be used against the defenders.

And you might call that unjust. It's war. It isn't supposed to be just. It's no game of chess.

[Mehman]

SO isn't their territory, but they had troops there legally. I think there's a rule that you shoot back when fired upon.

Quote[/b] ]Russian military isnt that good and well upgraded.

How do you know that? A discovery comparison of GDR migs and some modern US plane?

[MehMan 0]

That has no significance. It's the same situation. It has happened in a lot of wars, but this one is much more known.

The defenders push the attackers back into their own territory. That doesn't make them aggressors.

You have to destroy airbases, military bases, radars, artillery and all kinds of things that can be used against the defenders.

And you might call that unjust. It's war. It isn't supposed to be just. It's no game of chess.

Well yes, but that would be reasonable if the opponent would present a viable threat to Russia, but it didn't. It was a bit lopsided and calling it just self defence is a bit too easy on them.

Well, there are many nations in the world that have peacekeeping troops stationed in all parts of the world, but you don't see them invading and smashing said country.

I'm not exactly condeming russia with it's action, but I don't think you can call it just self defence.

[baddo 0]

USSR was an aggressor in the WW II.

Come to my town, tell the people here that the USSR wasn't an aggressor, you'll get your ass kicked badly. Go to the Baltic states and do the same. Let's see if you get back home in one piece.

They even said that they were aggressors until enough time had passed (Stalin dead etc.) But what do they know.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well yes, but that would be reasonable if the opponent would present a viable threat to Russia, but it didn't. It was a bit lopsided and calling it just self defence is a bit too easy on them.

No matter the threat, an aggression has to be countered. Gori was like 1km from the border. Poti is close to the sea. Everything was done in a proper way. The west just doesn't like the fact that their friends made something wrong and had to pay for it.

Quote[/b] ]USSR was an aggressor in the WW II.

Come to my town, tell the people here that the USSR wasn't an aggressor, you'll get your ass kicked badly. Go to the Baltic states and do the same. Let's see if you get back home in one piece.

They even said that they were aggressors until enough time had passed (Stalin dead etc.) But what do they know.

The balts voluntarily joined the USSR. But there were big fascist elements, and still are. Thousands of jews were killed with the help of balts. And minorities were oppressed just like today.

[MehMan 0]

No matter the threat, an aggression has to be countered. Gori was like 1km from the border. Poti is close to the sea. Everything was done in a proper way. The west just doesn't like the fact that their friends made something wrong and had to pay for it.

Poti is around 30kms away from the border, any artillery would have been stationed 10kms closer to the border to have any chance of being effective.

Georgia called this upon themselves, their own fault, now they should deal with this, however calling it Russian self defence is...a bit harsh on the term.

[Baff1 0]

Once you cross the border and start occupying cities it's pretty much an aggressive action from there forward. Once you clear the buffer zone around the border the strictly peace keeping part of your operation is done. But then again, this is the only effective way of disarming your opponent, but with Russia on SOs side, do you really think Georgia would strike again? Indeed, Russia acted with restrain, as far as what they could have done, but they still over reacted to a significantly weaker enemy. Saying it's self defense is really stretching the term.

Georgia is a tiny, tiny country.

Clearing a buffer zone pretty much could take you to the opposite side of it. It's only an hours drive in width.

A lot of places have buffer zones bigger than Georgia in it's entirity.

And yes I have every reason to believe Georgia would attack South Ossetia again given that Russia is on their side.

This is the second time they have done it. Not the first.

[Baff1 0]

No matter the threat, an aggression has to be countered. Gori was like 1km from the border. Poti is close to the sea. Everything was done in a proper way. The west just doesn't like the fact that their friends made something wrong and had to pay for it.

Poti is around 30kms away from the border, any artillery would have been stationed 10kms closer to the border  to have any chance of being effective.

And it takes how long to drive 10 km?

Do you think the Russians could reasonably expect to spot it moving, mobilise their forces and destroy it in time to prevent it firing.

In the end it's réal politic. Borders get drawn where it is possible to defend them, not where it is politically or ethnicly correct.

[Baff1 0]

Russia  threatens  Moldova over Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic that if they will think about any action in this 'separatist region' then Georgia scenario wil repeat again

Nistreană/Transnistria

31.9%, followed by ethnic Russians 30.4%, and Ukrainians 28.8%

---

Russia threatens Ukraine over autonome Crimea area

: Russians: 58.32%; Ukrainians: 24.32%; Crimean Tatars: 12.1%; Belarusians:

Russia feels outraged by Ukraine thinking to get rid of Russian naval base ...

---

i guess after SO and Abchazia you can see the pattern ...

---

but why so complicated?

let me sum it up ...

for Russia atm best would be roll out tanks , take whole Georgia, Ukraine and Moldavia by single massive strike

that way they re-establish theirs buffer zone, EU and USA may whine but can do nothing about as EU got zero forces and USA got own problems ...

if i'm Russian military leader i would do it ... it's worth the risk

I concur, but you missed out Lithuania.

Also I wouldn't take all of Ukraine, Georgia, Lithuania and Moldavia and etc, just the friendly parts.

No need to get into another Chechenya/Iraq/Afghanistan type scenario.

Park your troops in a safe place where people are pleased to see you.