Albanian terror on kosovo

[ran 0]

on the original topic :

I'm happy my fellow frogs did a relatively good job at controlling the crowds in Mitrovica yesterday . we've had a few wounded including 3 severly, I just hope they'll get better.

[Radnik 18]

Oh shit .... not again ....

Repeated violence waves are getting borign and if there's actually an outburst of violence, fuck it then, i won't step back in this regionnal shithole, i've done my share in the Balkans.

When will you people learn ? haven't the past conflicts in the region been enough to get through thick nationalist skulls that ethnically motivated war/civil war is bad ?

I've seen enough nasty things to feel just like letting the whole region of the balkans going down the shitter .. but it would be wasting all the ressources, time and men UN and NATO spent there ....

Balkans are a pain in the ass of Europe and have always been ....

...prejudgement of Balkans my friend.

Yes, it was cruely last 10 years but what about Balkan before 1990. Since WWII nobody complain and now Balkan are SHIThole. Suddenly we are shithole, and yes we are, as long as you thing like that

You see, i do not like the way of life style on Balkan and thing what gets me miserable is every preopinion of Serbian people that every Serb will carry this mark of NONCIVILIZATION HUMANS a long time.

[denoir 0]

You find a serb mob picture, but why did'n you find yesterday albanian mob burning serbian houses away from Mitrovica.

They burning ORTODOX CHURCHS and monastery as we speak.

Yes they do and it's the same crap on both sides. But the problem is not in the mobs, but in the politicians that encourage them. For example in Serbia, the police could have stopped the destruction of Albanian property and mosques. But they didn't they stood by. In Kosovo, the Albanian politicians have been very slow to condemn violence against Serbs.

Why am I pointing the finger at Serbia? Because it's a real organized country, that chooses to do the wrong thing. The Albanians are not organized enough to make real problems and they are under the boot of KFOR. What is going on now is the worst episode of violence since KFOR came to the scene. It will be suppressed and hopefully things will continue on the right path.

HOWEVER, it is not up to KFOR to hold the Albanians and the Serbs by hand and 'guide' them to co-existance. This has to be resolved by the Albanians and by the Serbs. And that is not going to happen unless the politicians on both sides start actively working against the segregtation and against the violence. Right now they indirectly encourage it. And that's the good 'ole Balkan story all over again.

[denoir 0]

Oh shit .... not again ....

Repeated violence waves are getting borign and if there's actually an outburst of violence, fuck it then, i won't step back in this regionnal shithole, i've done my share in the Balkans.

When will you people learn ? haven't the past conflicts in the region been enough to get through thick nationalist skulls that ethnically motivated war/civil war is bad ?

I've seen enough nasty things to feel just like letting the whole region of the balkans going down the shitter .. but it would be wasting all the ressources, time and men UN and NATO spent there ....

Balkans are a pain in the ass of Europe and have always been ....

I would not agree with that. Things are getting much better. Kosovo is actually the last point where there still are sometimes open ethnic conflicts. Apart from these latest events, things have been improving exponentially since KFOR entered the scene. I was down there for six months in 2001, and even during that relatively short period, I could see significant changes.

If you look at the Balkans overall, you can see that it's a pretty good picture these days. Slovenia is joining the EU now in May. Croatia will follow in a year or two. Bosinia is still a political mess, but there is basically no ethnic violence. Serbia is a complete economic and partially political mess, but it is coming closer to the international community. They even started their own set of war-crime tribunals, which I think is certainly a step in the right direction. Monte negro seems to be doing ok, and the future separation from Serbia looks like it will be painless. Macedonia seems to have gotten it shit together as well. They have much less problems with their Albanians, these days etc

So overall, I'd say things are looking pretty good. Now it's just that damned Kosovo. I do understand however why it is a bit more difficult. If you want an analogy or two: the Albanians to Serbia are what the Kurds are to Iraq or what the Palestinians are to Israel... There is quite a bit of problems there..

[Radnik 18]

The historical reason? -Keeping Serbia from starting yet another genocide

**off topic** ...When you say (for Serbia) things like that, you see i'm citizen of that Serbia, and was not in Bosnia or Croatia 1991-1995 (was 11-15 years old) and not on Kosovo 1998-1999 (was 18-19) and any gennocide i done is against army of ANTS .

During nato air campaing 1999 on Serbia i was in wonder WHAT I DID THOSE PEOPLE from NATO aliance ?

PLEASE DO NOT SAY THINGS IN GLOBAL VIEW

Get the point denoir ?

[Radnik 18]

Balkans are a pain in the ass of Europe and have always been ....

...please pay a visit to Belgrade to see SHITHOLE.

on my count offcourse

*back to topic*

More violence since morning

[denoir 0]

The historical reason? -Keeping Serbia from starting yet another genocide

**off topic** ...When you say (for Serbia) things like that, you see i'm citizen of that Serbia, and was not in Bosnia or Croatia 1991-1995 (was 11-15 years old) and not on Kosovo 1998-1999 (was 18-19) and any gennocide i done is against army of ANTS .

During nato air campaing 1999 on Serbia i was in wonder WHAT I DID THOSE PEOPLE from NATO aliance ?

PLEASE DO NOT SAY THINGS IN GLOBAL VIEW

Get the point denoir ?

Serbia as a political entity. I did not say "all Serbs". Just like when you say "America bombed Serbia", it does not mean that every single American citizen dropped bombs on Belgrade.

So I was not making any unfair generalizations.

And for the record, while I understand why NATO got involved in Kosovo, I never approved of the way they did it. Bombing Belgrade was wrong. Bombing TV stations and civilian infrastructures I consider war crimes. Worst of all, it did little good to the Albanians who it was supposed to save.. But that's another story.

Bottom line, you got bombed not because of your individual actions but because the actions of your country. It's always that way. How many on the recieving end of the bombs in Iraq do you think were Saddam loyalists? Not many I'd bet.

[ozanzac 0]

The point is Radnik. The whole of the world can't make the reconcilation process between all the disputing parties work for you.

People have to learn to get along with other ethnic groups, and in most societies, where peace prevails; they do.

Where they don't are hotspots like Israel-Palestine, Ethiopia-Eritrea and now Zimbabwe, as well as your own locality.

The international community has made somewhat of an attempt to reconcile the major indifferences between the parties involved in most of those cases, did all that they could to the extent of their political power . But it's to no avail when the quarelling  parties keep provoking one another. You have to crack down on your own people and their provocations before you can seriously start asking and expecting outside help.

Why would a peaceful society risk the lives of their citizens when in the end, the deed that the soldiers try to fufil (that of peace) goes unnoticed by people who can't recognise the value of peace, and who try to get the neutral peacekeepers to side with their cause?

To be honest I've almost had enough of the pockets of the world where peace can't be achieved by peaceful means. It's stupid, expensive, and pointless.  The only reason I even remotely support the use of peacekeepers is so that the agressing sides don't end up wiping each other off the face of the earth, though sometimes I wonder if that's the only way some societies will ever learn. I'm sorry for anyone if I offend them, but that's how I see it, and don't apologise for it.

[Apollo 0]

To be honest ,i must say the Albanian's can't be tottaly talked good in this conflict.AFAIK the reason why Milosovic send his troops against the Albanians in the Kosovbo war was because the UCK was expanding the ground it controlled.Then again Milosovic acted with an unjustifiably force against Albanians in general and not the UCK specificly,as such that was etnic cleansing and never correct behaviour.

Still it was the UCK who began with offensive action is Macedonia ,and although just like in Kosovo they were the minority they were again responsible for the start of the conflict.Fact is that the Albanians spread like wildfire over the region ,and they make new kids like rabbits.Just check out the demographic's of Macedonia from 1990 to 2000 ,and youll see a starling rise of ethnic Albanian population in Macedonia.Not only that ,but youll also see an increase in corruption and crime in that region ,as well as ethnic conflict.Same goes for Kosovo and Montenegro ,the Albanians are ever growing in presence in the region ,even in northern Greece and southern Italy they are a growing ,and one must note that in every Non-Albanian country with a big Albanian minority in it regionally the people that have to live asside thes Alabanian's hate their guts ,whether it's Serbia ,Macedonia ,Greece or Italy.

The Albanian society has a deep rooted Maffia culture ,i'm not a racist and saying that all Albanian's are bad however i must note that so many ALbanians are involved in this Maffia that they are quite not the best people to live next you.

While Milosovic's ethnic cleansing was bad ,one must note that much of the Albanians are creating the conflict themselfs with their neighbours.This in addition to spreading 100.000's of Albanian's over the E.U wich are most of the times footsoldiers of  an Albanian syndicate.

It is years already that i have noted to people that much of the European illigal immigration problem is in the hands of Albanian's.The Albanian mob syndicate's their core bussiness seems to be "human trade" ,usually immigrants wich they transport for a hughe sum.If it wern't for the human traders immigrants would enter Europe and a much lesser mass ,in addition human traders pull an exesive amount of money from such poor country's as many family's in such country's save for 20 years to be able to send a son to Europe.In addition the Albanian's are instrumental in channeling hard drug's for the European market from the Easter drug route (starting in Afhanistan) running trough Albania wich they then bring in into European harbors.

The Albanian mob syndicate's are a hughe nuicance for Europe ,and from this perspective IMO it's time Europe sends a millitary force to Albania and set some things straith there.

[denoir 0]

It's a complicated situation. In former Yugoslavia, Albanians were treated as third class citizens. They were poor, had lots of children and lived mostly under appaling conditions. The Serbs consider Kosovo to be of high historical and cultural meaning to them and they were not too happy with the ever growing Albanian population. When Milosevic came to power, he played on those feelings and painted a picture of a Kosovo where the Serbs were constantly terrorized by the Albanians. As a result all the autonomy they had was removed and so were minority rights, such as schools in their own language etc Back then the Albanians could do nothing about it as they had no way of defending themselves. At the same time Yugoslavia was starting to break up. Several republics held their first democratic elections and it was obvious that the comminist system was going down. At the same time Milosevic was rising in power. Kosovo was just his starting point. Anyway after a long sequence of events the war started, first Slovenia (very short-lived) then Croatia and finally Bosnia. Before the war, the Yugoslav military was the fourth strongest in Europe. At the end of the war, the Serb controlled remnants of ti were weak and depleated after ten years of war. The Albanians in Kosovo saw their chance and started organizing a rebellion. The KLA (UCK) started making trouble by attacking Yugoslav army, police and destroying infrastructure and communications. In '98/'99 Yugoslavia started a police/military action against them in Kosovo. It was done in the same way as during the other wars: a dual chain of command - a military and police that did the official stuff and a paramilitary that engaged in ethnic cleansing. The paramilitary part was supplied by the military and the military looked the other way when they did the nasty stuff.

The world not wanting yet another ethnic cleansing in the region got involved militarily. During that conflict the west gave KLA weapons and logistics. After Operation Allied Force and Joint Guardian, when KFOR came into place, the KLA became a liability. The roles changed. Now it was the Albanians getting revenge on the Serbs living in Kosovo. As a result more than 200,000 Serbs fled Kosovo. The KLA transformed from a resistance movement into black-marketeers and provided the weapons for the Albanians to use to persecute the remaining Serbian population in Kosovo. By 2000, the KLA activities were becoming a serious problem and KFOR started aggressivly disarming them. And it was fairly successful. While the black market is still very strong, weapons sales and narcotics trafficing has been drastically reduced.

One problem is that neither the Albanians nor the Serbs are happy with the current arrangement. The Serbs want their Kosovo back, while the Albanians want either independence or to join Albania. The Albanians won't be getting what they want, that's for sure. The Serbs, possibly, but not in the near future. And the more time passes, less Serbs live in the region. So on the long-term, everything is still unsolved.

Personally, I think that Europe should invest a shitload of money to turn Albania into a normal European country. That will facilitate things in Kosovo. Serbia has to deal with its internal problems as well as to reflect on its actions during the war. Right now most Serbs are against Milosevic because he screwed Serbia, not at all for his role in the war. Until some form of understanding is reached, it will be difficult to move forward. But when those things get settled down, I don't see any problems with Serbia joining the EU. It will take time - perhaps 10-15 years, but I don't see why not. These riots now in Belgrade, and the statements of Kostunica and the police unwillingness to stop the destruction of Albanian property are a huge step back. They have to get their shit together on that point.

I saw this on BBC:

Quote[/b] ]The latest violence has been reported in the town of Obilic, west of the capital, Pristina - where a Serb Orthodox church is being burned and local Serbs have been evacuated.

I've been to Obilic on several occasions.. I think I know the church they are talking about. There used to be a large JNA radar array and some barracks there that we inspected a couple of times.

[Apollo 0]

I agree on most what you said Denoir.I must stress that having as nationality an important ethnic percentage in the population of a region makes it easier to claim such a region yours.In this sense i see the Albanians as a danger ,as they migrate in big numbers to country's around them ,however don't assimilate in those country's rather create enclaves in it where they live toghether and usually make the only ethnic group on that spot they live.That is dangerous as rather than immigration it's more like colony building ,and that usually leads to conflict as the native ethnicity feels pushed back from their historical territory.

In this sense while KFOR has always aimed to in the long run return Kosovo to Serbia rather than Albania or ethnic Albanians probably because they felt that Kosovo was historicly Serbian land ,i would rather doubt that this will happen in the long run as the Albanian's have managed to drive most ethnic serbs from the Region.It will be 100 times more logical eventually to hand Kosovo to the ALbanians rather than the serbs if the region has a majority of 95% Albanians.This is the danger with the Albanian's ,with their spreading emmigration they are also spreading the territorial claims of their ethnicity ,and the Albanians are expanding fast.

IMO Albanian emmigration is key to the problem ,the sollution is however not easy.Prevention of further immigration is one thing we could do as Europe ,and it would probably mean making big changes in Albania itself ,given it's dictatorial regime it would be hard to achieve efficiant results by peacefull means.But with a stable and democratic goverment placed in Albania there could be room for the returning of a number of ethnic Albanian's from places Like Kosovo and Macedonia where they intice conflict.

And it's not for the Macedonians or Serbs particulary that we should do it ,both Ethnic Albanian's and Albanian mob syndicate's are as i said aso a nuicance for Europe ,especially when they are for ex. gaining ground in Greece and Italy by immigration.

[denoir 0]

The key is the unbelievable poverty and the corrupt political system. It's not the people - they just adapt to the living conditions given. There are Albanian minorities in all ex-Yugoslav countries and they are well integrated productive members of the society. The problem in Kosovo is that the Albanians never were integrated in to the Yugoslav society. It was a completely backwards poor province whose citizens were treated like animals. And they organized themselves according to the initial conditions they were given.

I think that Albania is an embarrassment for Europe. It's difficult to believe that we're allowing such poverty and corruptness right under our noses. IMO the only reasonable thing to do is to bring Albania and Kosovo up to normal European economic and political standards. That will kill off both the crime as well as make integration and assimilation possible. When we do so, the problem of who Kosovo should belong to will be much less important. If they have a decent living quality and good minority rights, getting Kosovo back to Serbia would not be a problem for the Albanians and the Serbs.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]WHAT A FUCK KFOR/UMNIC IS DOING ON KOSOVO ? CAMPING ?

WHAT IS THEIR MISSION ?

A couple of my friends are currently serving in that area and last I heard several Swedish soldiers had been wounded. So asking what they are doing is extremely disrespectful to the guys getting pounded on from all directions in their attempts to enforce and keep the peace.

Maybe they should just pack it up and go home. Let the people police themselves. We saw how well that worked the last time around...

[Apollo 0]

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From Wikipedia:

Albania is one of Europe's poorest countries, with half of the economically-active population still engaged in agriculture and a fifth said to be working abroad. The country has to deal with a high unemployment rate, corruption up to high government levels and organised crime.

Albania is aided financially from abroad, notably by Greece and Italy.

The country exports nearly nothing and imports a lot from Greece and Italy. The money for imports comes from the financial aid and from the money that refugees working abroad bring to Albania. This is a good status-quo business for both Greece and Italy.

Through FY 1998, the United States committed approximately $300 million to Albania's economic and political transformation and to address humanitarian needs. This figure comprises about 10% of all bilateral and multilateral assistance offered since 1991. Italy ranks first in bilateral assistance and Germany third. The European Union (EU) has given about $800 million since 1991 and pledged $175 million in 1996-99.

In FY 1999, the United States will provide $30 million through the Support for East European Democracy (SEED) Act, up from $27 million the previous year. The U.S. also will provide an agricultural commodities grant of $10 million.

The $30 million Albanian-American Enterprise Fund (AAEF), launched in 1994, is actively making debt and equity investments in local businesses. AAEF is designed to harness private sector efforts to assist in the economic transformation. U.S. assistance priorities include promotion of agricultural development and a market economy, advancement of democratic institutions (including police training), and improvements in quality of life. The SEED funding request for Albania for FY 2000 is $25 million.

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Hmm did we invest in Albania a lot already? Frankly i have no idea how much $ it needs to put a country like Albania on it's tracks however it ain no big or populated country neither.And i wonder if it all were gift's or if some of them were loan's.In any case a good deal of that money has so it seems gone in imports as it's foreign funded agriculture seems to be unable to provide enough food for the local market.Given the hughe state corruption and maffia ,how much of all this money remains after it has slipped a number of "official" hands? 40 to 50% maybe ,and that would be optimistic Imho.

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Wikipedia on Albanian crime:

Increasingly active transshipment point for Southwest Asian opiates, hashish, and cannabis transiting the Balkan route and - to a far lesser extent - cocaine from South America destined for Western Europe; limited opium and cannabis production; ethnic Albanian narcotrafficking organizations active and rapidly expanding in Europe. These activities are now sided, presumably by the same criminal groups (mafia-like associations), with an increasing traffic of prostitutes from former communist countries, of which the Albanian coasts seems to be the gateway to Europe through Italy.

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I would be surprized if the situation is much different in Kosovo or east Macedonia.I agree that it's not the normal Albanian population that is in fault i would never make such generalization's ,but i dare to state though that a major percentage of all young ethnic albanian male's living in Albania ,Kosovo ,Macedonia or inside the European union are involved in maffia activity's.I agree that raising the living sandards of normal ethnic Albanian's could go a long way in solving much of the problem's ,but i wouldn't trust the Albanians themselfs to invest the money ,and i wouldn't cooperate with the current all to corrupt Albanian goverment.

In addition ,and i'm serious here ,it would solve a lot of problem's for European country's to.Take the situation in Italy ,i do not doubt that a man like Berlusconi has partly come to power due to the Albanian maffia problem in Italy and their growing human trade trough italy ,definatly if you look at Berlusconi's coalition partners.Another ex. is the Belgium city of Antwerp ,it's local politic's ,police and justice is virtually controlled by the Albanian and Gerogian mob. (don't get me started on the Georgian mob ,or in fact the Russian )

The ast decade has seen a hugh influx of Maffia organizations from east Europe.These organization's are highly efficiant and a growing problem ,for the E.U i would prioritize fighting maffia above fighting terrorism actually.

[ran 0]

Oh shit .... not again ....

Repeated violence waves are getting borign and if there's actually an outburst of violence, fuck it then, i won't step back in this regionnal shithole, i've done my share in the Balkans.

When will you people learn ? haven't the past conflicts in the region been enough to get through thick nationalist skulls that ethnically motivated war/civil war is bad ?

I've seen enough nasty things to feel just like letting the whole region of the balkans going down the shitter .. but it would be wasting all the ressources, time and men UN and NATO spent there ....

Balkans are a pain in the ass of Europe and have always been ....

I would not agree with that. Things are getting much better. Kosovo is actually the last point where there still are sometimes open ethnic conflicts. Apart from these latest events, things have been improving exponentially since KFOR entered the scene. I was down there for six months in 2001, and even during that relatively short period, I could see significant changes.

If you look at the Balkans overall, you can see that it's a pretty good picture these days. Slovenia is joining the EU now in May. Croatia will follow in a year or two. Bosinia is still a political mess, but there is basically no ethnic violence. Serbia is a complete economic and partially political mess, but it is coming closer to the international community. They even started their own set of war-crime tribunals, which I think is certainly a step in the right direction. Monte negro seems to be doing ok, and the future separation from Serbia looks like it will be painless. Macedonia seems to have gotten it shit together as well. They have much less problems with their Albanians, these days etc

So overall, I'd say things are looking pretty good. Now it's just that damned Kosovo. I do understand however why it is a bit more difficult. If you want an analogy or two: the Albanians to Serbia are what the Kurds are to Iraq or what the Palestinians are to Israel... There is quite a bit of problems there..

It's getting better but when i see reactions of individuals such as ... let's say Radnik, I tend to forget about all the advances in matter of peace. Don't forget that fights in the region "ceased" not so long ago. Slovenia and Croatia are good exemples of success, but things are still a bit rough in Kosovo.

I have to admit i'm somekind of Idealist . i would have hoped that everything had settled down and that the international military presency was just a formality, but heck ....

Did you see us, frenchmen riot against german minority in Alsace at the end of WW2 ? (bad comparaison ... but i'm too tired to think tonight )

After the awfull carnages and slaughters the whole region went through I would have hoped a bit more understanding and cold blood from the people involved in these days "crisis".

Ther attitude of some people and the media coverage make it all look bad to the rest of the world, I know it iisn't that way, but hell .... all our efforts, our sweat and our blood for what ? for tards who can help themselves but create problems.

[Munk 0]

750 British troops are being sent...

Quote[/b] ]LONDON (Reuters) - Britain says it will send a force of up to 750 troops to help quell unrest in Kosovo.

Twenty-two people have died over the past 24 hours in the worst clashes in Kosovo since NATO and the United Nations took control over the mainly ethnic-Albanian Serbian province in 1999.

The troops will come from the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment, based in West London, which has been on standby as the rotating "spearhead" unit, prepared for rapid deployment to the Balkans in case of NATO request.

"Some of them will be (going). How many, I don't know," said a spokesman for the Ministry of Defence on Thursday.

"The allocation...is up to 750," he said, adding that an announcement of exactly how many troops would be going and when they would depart could be expected later on Thursday.

Earlier a spokesman for Prime Minister Tony Blair said the Western alliance, which polices the Serbian province, had requested 500 troops.

"We are monitoring events in Kosovo with growing concern," Foreign Minister Jack Straw told reporters after a meeting with his Italian counterpart Franco Frattini.

"We have known all along that it was going to take some time (to rebuild peace in the region)," he added, declining to say how long the new deployment might stay.

Kosovo is still recognised internationally as part of Serbia and Montenegro, the former rump Yugoslavia, but is administered by NATO and the U.N. with de facto independence from Belgrade since a NATO-led war drove out Yugoslav forces.

Britain already has 260 troops as part of a NATO force in Kosovo and more than 1,100 as part of a separate force in nearby Bosnia and Croatia.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040318/325/eovvu.html

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]A couple of my friends are currently serving in that area and last I heard several Swedish soldiers had been wounded. So asking what they are doing is extremely disrespectful to the guys getting pounded on from all directions in their attempts to enforce and keep the peace.

Maybe they should just pack it up and go home. Let the people police themselves. We saw how well that worked the last time around...

While intentions may be the best in the world for peacekeeping. I'm really glad I'm not doing it. The idea of being shot/attacked out of nowhere would probably drive me absolutely nuts. I'd also be scared to death if it was indeed very plausible.

Someone mentioned Chechnya somewhere back there. Could anyone tell me what the whole deal with them and the Russians are? To my knowledge it was something about them wanting to cede or break apart from the Russian federation or something.

The problem with something like that (if that indeed is the case) is asking where you draw the line between a poorly armed undermanned milita/army and a terrorist cel? I think that would be largely subject to interpretation. However civilian targets in any military campaign is essentially terrorism.

There are exceptions however. I saw this one thing on the history channel about this secret plan that (Churchill?) made on the contingency that Germany did in fact successfully invade Great Britian.

Select operatives were bred from each small village and would carry out covert sabotage operations to discourage and harry the invaders. One of these things involved killing anyone (civilian or not) who was in a position of power that aided and abetted the enemy.

In that context I do not believe that to be terrorism. It's certainly not one of the more honorable facets of war. Still. Small units that are inadequately equipped to fight a conventional (relatively balanced) war. Must resort to guerilla tactics. Again, however this shouldn't involve killing utterly innocent people such as blowing up trains or bombing civilian buildings. In the context of fighting for freedom, your cause has no credibility if you're trying to free yourself from so-called oppression when you have no problem doing some form of oppression yourself.

I feel bad for Radnik if he does live over there.

Thing is though. Kosovo refugees of which some live in my neighborhood, have gotten something of a bad rap around here since many of the young men seem to cause trouble, picking fights with people, engaging in acts of vandalism. Suspected drug dealing. Where I live it's a relatively nice quiet neighborhood as far as much as one in an urbanized environment can be. This behavior really disturbs and distresses the residents here. While I know some families from Kosovo whom are our neighbors who are very decent friendly people. I can see how someone would be quick to judge the people there because of the bad ones. It's not right, however it is easy for some.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Just what our greatly overstretched armed forces need .

The Balkans have historically been a mess for europe, but i agree with Radnik at least to the extent that we shouldnt allow the past to condemn the future of the south east of our continent however pointless the bloodshed and trouble might seem (its easy to dispassionately criticise from outside).

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

So overall, I'd say things are looking pretty good. Now it's just that damned Kosovo. I do understand however why it is a bit more difficult. If you want an analogy or two: the Albanians to Serbia are what the Kurds are to Iraq or what the Palestinians are to Israel... There is quite a bit of problems there..

Actually, I believe that is only half the problem. The other half of the problem is that Kosovo is historically a very important Serb region. It was in Kosovo where the Serbs fought a major battle against the Turks in the 13th century and lost. Yeah, they lost, but its still very important.

Think of Ghettysburg or Hastings or Trafalgar or Waterloo. Very important places in people's minds. Now imagine a bunch of foreigners coming along, setting up shop, then later getting outside forces to bomb you and take away one of your most important pieces of land. I think this part of the problem is pretty much unsolveable, even if Kosovo remains part of Greater Serbia.

[hellfish6 7]

I say blame the Ottomans. That's who we should be bombing.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I say blame the Ottomans. That's who we should be bombing.

Don't forget to bomb Austria-Hungary to.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I say blame the Ottomans. That's who we should be bombing.  

You have my complete support

*goes to ebay to buy some fighter-bombers*

[toadeater 0]

Bottom line, you got bombed not because of your individual actions but because the actions of your country. It's always that way. How many on the recieving end of the bombs in Iraq do you think were Saddam loyalists? Not many I'd bet.

Can you explain why the CIA trained and funded the KLA **before** the Kosovo war? Why did they support an Islamic terrorist organization? Why did they support terrorist attacks against Serb civilians?

This was clearly another case of 'regime change', like what the CIA used to do in South America, only this time they resorted to Islamic terrorists rather than narco-mafias.

So how was this the Serbs' fault? They're being blamed for retaliating against CIA-sponsored terror attacks, while Israel which bombs Palestine in retaliation on a regular basis is hardly even criticized. I detect a double-standard here.

Europe is going to regret helping these Albanians, Kosovo might just turn out to be Europe's Chechnya.

[denoir 0]

Can you explain why the CIA trained and funded the KLA **before** the Kosovo war? Why did they support an Islamic terrorist organization?

This was clearly another case of 'regime change', like what the CIA used to do in South America, only this time they resorted to Islamic terrorists rather than narco-mafias.

CIA, actually not CIA, but NATO provided weapons and logistics to the KLA once the air-war started . Not before. On the contrary, while the peace talks in '98 was in progress, they did their best to cut them off.

Quote[/b] ]Why did they support terrorist attacks against Serb civilians?

They supported guerilla attacks against the Yugoslav military, which NATO was at war with at the time. Nothing wrong there. The problems that came later were unavoidable as the KLA was after the war well-armed and not very pleased with the final settlement.

Quote[/b] ]So how was this the Serbs' fault? They're being blamed for retaliating against CIA-sponsored terror attacks, while Israel which bombs Palestine in retaliation on a regular basis is hardly even criticized. I detect a double-standard here.

They weren't CIA sponsored and they weren't terrorist attacks. The KLA was attacking an army that was trying to ethnically cleanse Kosovo.

Quote[/b] ]Europe is going to regret helping these Albanians, Kosovo might just turn out to be Europe's Chechnya.

Hardly. The KLA does basically not exist any more. They deal in weapons and drugs now, but their paramilitary activities are basically non-existant. KFOR very successfully decimated the KLA. The current violence has nothing to do with the KLA. What we have today are angry mobs burning churches, houses, mosques and hurting people. It's not terrorism, it's civil disorder.

[Radnik 18]

It's getting better but when i see reactions of individuals such as ... let's say Radnik, I tend to forget about all the advances in matter of peace.

I think that my reaction on this mess was 2 simple questions about/for KFOR/UMNIC. ok ? never said yes burn, revenge, burn mosques in Serbia. ok ?

My reaction on this mess is this topic. I did not went to burn or savage that mosque in Belgrade but was on forum chat with denoir, this is my way of protest.

I'm on peace protest in Belgrade right now.

*edit*