Us presidential election 2004

[blackdog~ 0]

@ Nov. 04 2004,05:12)]Yet in the past you followed some pretty fucked up way of ruling your colonies and look at them now? Africa is a mess, India and Pakistan are at each other's throats and the whole Asia minor area which once used to be under British control is in shambles.....

Not to mention America.. what an embarrassment for us Europeans you are

And vice versa.

[denoir 0]

shinRaiden, can you answer me this that I've asked a number of times and nobody has answered:

How is gay marriage a moral value while killing 100,000 Iraqi civilians is not?

How are condoms in high-schools a moral problem while the blatant destruction of the environment is not?

[denoir 0]

@ Nov. 04 2004,05:12)]Yet in the past you followed some pretty fucked up way of ruling your colonies and look at them now? Africa is a mess, India and Pakistan are at each other's throats and the whole Asia minor area which once used to be under British control is in shambles.....

Not to mention America.. what an embarrassment for us Europeans you are

And vice versa.

Eh, dude - you are our former colony. It's not a symmetric relationship.

[blackdog~ 0]

Yeah well neither are condoms and destruction of the enviroment.

[Bordoy 0]

Well i haven't posted since Bush has won here goes, whoooop.

See my predictions work, listen to me next time.

[denoir 0]

Blind guessing is not equal to prediction Bordoy.

Anwyay, one thing that I have to admit to is that the Bush campaign was really excellent. It was superior to the Kerry one in almost every aspect. Bush had a few simple strong messages, while Kerry was all over the place.

Bush's messages were also much more compatible with today's media format. I have to admit that for a while they managed to get me thinking about Kerry in their terms (i.e ambitious flip-flopper) - before I actually started reading the source material, rather than the sound bites that the media showed.

The Bush campaign commercials were also superior to the Kerry ones.

The Vietnam fight was just beautiful. Bush, with a very questionable military record managed to come up on top of Kerry, a decorated veteran. It was sheer political brilliance that managed to equal the Swift boat veterans blatant lies to an objectively questionable military record.

And finally we have the results of the elections. America has never been in such a bad shape, both domestically and abroad - and Bush still managed to get a very strong mandate. To me that is very impressive.

[Bordoy 0]

Blind guessing is not equal to prediction Bordoy.

Wasn't blind giessing if you read what i said. If you would of noticed on that election website with the map and all, you should of seen that in the last 10-15 days of october and first couple of days for november, the prediction changed from bush to kerry then back to bush orientating on different days.

eg, Monday - Bush

Tuesday - Kerry

so i thought if it goes back up then down then back back up for Bush, he should win, which he did.

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]

shinRaiden, can you answer me this that I've asked a number of times and nobody has answered:

How is gay marriage a moral value while killing 100,000 Iraqi civilians is not?

How are condoms in high-schools a moral problem while the blatant destruction of the environment is not?

1) Gay marriage is part of the moral question of 'what is marriage, and what is its place in society.'

2) Iraqi and Kurdish refuges who lost their entire families and would not give their names in public even in the US, have repeatedly say that were Saddam to remain in power, there would continue to be deliberate civilian casualties in the prisions and gassed villages in counts far greater than the numbers that would die in the course of war by accident. As I asked earlier, the moral question is 'is it right to die for a cause', and secondly 'is the risk of accidently casulties instead of more numerous deliberate casulties a morally acceptable risk?'

Take the Israeli-Palestinian situation, as well as the Bin Laden video recently released. To the terrorists, there are no civilians. To blow up shoppers and police recruits and commendeer schools is to attack for them enemy combatants. Finally on that nice round number of 100 000, from personal experience I have learned to heavily discount the news from both sides from the middle east.

The symbols and imagery in many instances have more cultural meaning to the people than the statistics preferred by the pundits. Even here in our "Million man marches" struggling to break a couple hundred thousand, the message is a political one, not a statistical on. Is 100 000 dead 'worse' than one? Is 100 000 accidental casulties better than 5 million non-accidental civilian casualties?

3) Condoms are a moral question dealing with the purpose of life and family relationships, and the foundations to define society.

4) Environmentalism is a particularly messed up topic. Outside the Mt. Saint Helens National Monument, any traces of the devestation from the 1980 eruption have disappeared from proactive forest management. Conversely, the interior of the monument, where 'interference' is strictly prohibited, much remains a desolate landscape.

Now my county council just passed on party lines an illegal and unrequired ordinance that in order to preserve the 'rural' character of the rural areas, property owners - includeing Public schools - will be restricted from building on 65% of their land, in addition to existing 300ft (100m) setbacks from any standing water, even if the body of water was artificially created.

The reason for the 300ft, as entered into testimony by a state dept. of Ecology agent, was based on an average tree height of 150ft (75m), and was designed to garauntee that were a tree to fall into the creek creating natural fish habitat, the property owner would not be allowed to touch that tree. This has led to cases of flooding from improper drainage destroying rather than protecting salmon spawning grounds. It also legally prevents the property owner from putting trees into the creek to deliberately create habitat to attempt to compensate for the Tribal gill netting, banned worldwide except for aboriginal populations.

In defense of this ordinance, a local activist stood up and congratulated the council in heading in the right direction towards population management. When questioned about his statement that the world was already over-populated and what he would do about it, he ducked it by saying that it was a national issue.

Ebenezer Scrooge in Charles Dickens "A christmas carol" summed it up along those lines when responding to a solicitation for charity:

Quote[/b] ]

"Then they'd better hurry up and (die), and reduce the surplus population!

There is not an over-population problem, there is an under-charity problem. Why are people starving in Dafur? There's no want for bread in America, but the relief agencies are turned back at the borders or robbed.

So the question of dealing with the environment again comes back to my 'moral economics' of are humans an asset or a liability to nature?

There is room to log and plant trees. There is room to fish and build stream beds. There is room to grow wheat and wildflowers. There is room to feed the masses, and there is room for them to build houses and families to continue to care for the land so that others too may benefit.

[desantnik 0]

Quote[/b] ]And finally we have the results of the elections. America has never been in such a bad shape, both domestically and abroad - and Bush still managed to get a very strong mandate. To me that is very impressive.

Wag the Dog... the sequal?....

now if only he could use that intelligence to form his policies across the globe... and one more thing.... stop speaking like a freaking Texan. That drives me crazy about the man. Not that I dont like Texas but his southern twang just gets me right under the skin.....*shivers*

I am just glad the elections are over...they left me tired... divided... and apathetic toward the future... hopefully we'll be one the move again soon.

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]

they left me tired... divided... and apathetic toward the future

Well, I'm tired from getting out the vote, divided about the next step in my involvement in the process, and apathetic about the chances of you ever figuring out why you lost the 'predictable' election. NBC did have a good spot tonight about how the Democratic party is in a 20-year decline over all, because they do not represent the mainstream or the normal.

So from here out, I'm envigorated, the party is more united, and the young ranks of volunteers - and not paid Union agents outsourcing the campaigning - are enthusiastic about '05, '06, '07, and '08. I look forward to singing along with many others "Ding dong the witch is dead" at the top of my lungs Nov 4th 2008.

-edit-

Hmm... new moral question... do I 'commemorate' my 666th post?

[joltan 0]

Ok, so Bush got another four years, the senate and the house of representatives are in republican hands - and several judges of the high court will need replacement during this presidency...

To me that sounds just like a major clusterfuck - not just for those opposing him from the beginning. But the 'land of freedom' is becomming even more of a joke than it's banana republic style elections and Goebbels style propaganda (not to mention it's policies of the last century) already made it. Let's all just sit back, wait for the Patriot Act Part II, the war on Iran, half a million dead 'towelheads' more - and of course our rising Halliburton stocks (you did buy them in time, I hope?)...

The people have the government they deserve - and the harvest they sow. Enjoy the ride!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]I still dont understand, still after hundred of pages discussing here with people, why a president who initially started a war for the wrong reasons is fully forgiven?

The fact remains, Saddam had no WMD and no democracy has been established in iraq. Fact is that Bush is the reason for at least 100.000 civillian casualties (newest studies). Do you forgive things like this? Do you oversee them? Are those lifes of no importance? Is this the prize to pay for a country to one day get democracy? And why is democracy so important for Iraq and not for Saudi Arabia. And why was Iraq the playground of terorism if none of the terorists of 9/11 were iraqis? And dont you condemn the action to let the Bin Laden family escape?

Do you only judge a war by the amount of american soldiers being killed? What about the promise to "smoke" Bin Laden out of his cave? Two years plus billions and billions of dollars have been wasted to catch those responsible for 9/11. Is it so difficult for the largest military in the world to catch just one man? With precision strikes maybe yes, but noone applied precision strikes on Afghanistan.

Don't believe everything you see in film, particularly Moore's propaganda masterpiece.  But if you insist, kindly view another film Fahren-HYPE 9/11.

wowowow wait! WHAT are you talking about? What about these facts isnt correct.

FACT1: the Bin Laden family left the summit shortly after 9/11

Fact2: AT LEAST 100.000 civillians have been killed in Iraq

FACT3: The Presentation in front of the UN was a full error. None of the facts were correct.

So dont give me this "Fahrenheit" nonesense.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

[

Quote[/b] ]Judging all humans in the same way I would rather expect you to cry one or the other tear for those 300.000 civillians that have died in your strike against terorism. But none, not even Kerry ever voiced concern about the misery your nation has caused, the only concern was about US soldiers. Just like in Vietnam I know noone in America will ever apologise for it.

Kindly post the link to support your claim that "300,000" civilians have died at the hands of American war fighters.

As for the deaths of civilians in general, it is a very sad thing.  3,000 American civilians died in 9/11 and Americans were treated to scenes of merrymaking in the streets of many Muslim countries because of it.

 American rules of engagement to not allow for targeting of civilians.  Terrorists have no such restraint.  

Saddam could have stepped down and avoided this war if he really had his country's best interests at heart.  Iraqis can inform on and surrender the terrorists within their midst and stop the violence.  But if there counting on Americans turning tail and fleeing all I can say is good luck.

The estimated number of civillian casualties is currently at least 100.000 (refering to the Lancet report). This report even excluded some of the greatest battle zones because they couldnt collect informtation there. The estimate is around 180.000. Add Afghanistan to that and you have a figure approaching 300.000, and a long way to go!

Quote[/b] ]Saddam could have stepped down and avoided this war if he really had his country's best interests at heart.

You dont realy mean that, do you? You mean because SADDAM didnt cooperate the people have to suffer. Man you realy got a sick mind.

So what was 9/11 about? Bush could have stepped down and avoided the attack on the WTC.

Quote[/b] ]War always results in the death of civilians, it has never been any other way.  The main difference is whether civilians are intentionally targeted or not.

No, that is not the essential point. The essential point is whether a war is justified. Iraq didnt attack you, iraq had no capabilities to attack you, Iraq had no connection with Al Quaida and no intentions to get WMD. Do me a patriotic favour and read your own damn reports.

YOU ATTACKED AND YOU KILLED CIVILLIANS full stop.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Schweizer, I'm affraid you're being hopelessly optimistic in expecting any Bush supporter to answer your valid questions. I've watched this thread and all of them to be avoiding issues and just ignoring them.

What I find amusing that some people on this forum still think that war in Vietnam was still worth sacrificing thousands and thousands more American lives and consider Kerry a traitor and he only helped to save lives and stop the war. America had proved it's point, tide of communism was already stemmed enough and it was time to pull out.

You may want to discuss serious politics at this time, but we are too busy celebrating and feeling joy to get into the details of it.

But Schweizer,

The reason Bush is so popular despite all those details you mentioned regarding international affairs is because Americans look at everything from one main perspective, that's America and American values and the American way of life.  Everything we do is intended to serve our country and serve our sense of American pride.

I'm not saying we don't care about the dead iraki civilians or vietnam.  But in our viewpoint vietnam was tough time for America.  We fought with courage, and lost many lives.  We lost many soldiers in Irak, but these are only testaments to our courage and bravery as well as our willingness to selfsacrifice for our country.  That is what it is all about.  We are fighting in Irak for our ideals.

I can't believe I just read that...

Freedom is an American ideal that we have alot of pride in.  That is what we are fighting for in iraq.  That is why people are willing to support it like we are.  This is why we support Bush.  Our soldiers deaths are a sad but proud reminder of our patriotism and willingness to fight for those ideals in iraq.

What is happening here? What has freedom to do with Iraq? Can someone please pull the propaganda plug? it is getting scary!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]They declared war on you and attacked you. Iraq did not.

No, Iraq just took potshots at patrolling US aircraft for a decade. If you're wondering whether taking potshots is considered hostile action, then you can easily do a home test by throwing a Molotov cocktail near a passing police car.

Ah, you mean with the highly dangerous Anti-air batteries they had at this time? Or do you mean the dangerous ground to air rockets? Hell yes iraq realy launched dangerous attacks!

[shinRaiden 0]

And what about the human shield / volunteer hostages that went to gaurd the AAA batteries dug into school playgrounds? What about their reports that they were moved to obvious military installations?

Albert, you are accusing the US of incompetently doing what Saddam was given a pass to do efficently for 20 years. Is there a difference in 'civilian' and 'military' casulties? Was Leon Klinghoffer, pushed off a cruise liner in a wheelchair by Abu Nidal - who was given refuge and medical treatment by Saddam - an enemy combatant?

When the military has their hands tied by those that wish to cut off those hands, they are restricted from competently fulfilling their mission, resulting in unneccessary casulties on all sides. If you go running out in traffic, who's fault is it if you turn into a road muffin? Not the driver's.

Where did the civilian casulties in Kuwait come from? If that war was about oil as folks claimed, then why is this war about oil if Iraq has little to no oil that they had to invade Kuwait over it? What about the Scuds in Israel? Were the Israelis as a nation and people to be held responsible for American defense of Kuweit? Were the Israelis to be punished for defending the cause of nuclear non-proliferation by bombing Tuweitha? How many civilian casulties as opposed to military - if you divide the two - would have been lost had Saddam put a hotbox in one of those scuds?

[CounterForce 0]

Here in Germany everything about Bush is said to be negative. I don't know a single person in Germany who believes that Bush is the better possiblity for America and the World. Some just hate America alltogether, because it is America, or they hate Bush because of the war in Iraq or because he believes in Jesus Christ or because of any other reason. Nobody says that Bush did at least one good thing in the past 4 years.

Some people (inculding some shows on TV) say Bush is not able to read. And there are a lot of other "funny" things you hear about the USA if you speak with young people in Germany.

But I don't think like that.

I support Bush because he believes in the same values (NO to homosexual marriage etc.) as I do. And I am happy that there are politicans who dare to support such values. Here in Germany you might be fined if you say that homosexuality is a sin in public.

Furthermore Bush is the better President for the US economy.

Bush made it possibile that there are free elections in Afg. and I am sure there will be free elections in Iraq too.

I think the Iraq War was not bad. Saddam was a danger to the world and he killed a lot of people useing weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps he had no weapons of mass destruction left when the war started, but I am sure the world is much safer with Saddam being in prison and having to pay for what he did.

The situation in Iraq today is not the best of course but it is better than Saddam being in power.

Today people have their own opinions and can say this in public. And the situation is not as dangerous than you might think first seeing the pictures of dayly attacks in TV. What TV does not show is that for most live goes on normal.

There are only a few terrorist who fight against the new freedom in Iraq.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Here in Germany you might be fined if you say that homosexuality is a sin in public.

That is simply incorrect!

You support the idea of homosexuality is a sin? Well you may, but thanks god in germany church and state are seperated. You may believe it is a sin, but you cant declare it to be a criminal act!

Quote[/b] ]What TV does not show is that for most live goes on normal.

There are only a few terrorist who fight against the new freedom in Iraq.

That is even more incorect! Oh by the way. When Cologne was bombed, life in Berlin continued as normal. When Berlin was bombed, cologne was peaceful.

Nice argumentation!

Only a few terorists to fight against the US? hmmm, not bad for a few terorists to launch daily attacks, kill a dozen per day and keep the country unstable. Must be bunch of hell of well equipped Mofos then!

[whisperFFW06 0]

How many civilian casulties as opposed to military - if you divide the two - would have been lost had Saddam put a hotbox in one of those scuds?

That something I've hard time to understand as being labelled "moral".

Saddam did wrong things, very wrong. This is certainly not a moral justification for killing Iraqi civilians.

When one ask you "is it moral to kill 100.000+ civilians?", you answer by showing how bad Saddam was and that he did equal if not worst, so we shouldn't complain.

Using one's bad behaviour to justify your own is not moral.

On the environment issue, you gave great example of how you are ecologist.... in your own land...

Kyoto treaty? Oil in Alaska? This is of no concern?

[Mr_Tea 0]

Hi all.

It´s my first Post here.

I´m not that glad with President Bush reelected.If in 2008 Jeb Bush wins the election we should start a poll to rename the USA to "Bushland"

I am not an anti American but a Democrat

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Hi there and welcome to our board

Quote[/b] ]I am not an anti American but a Democrat

We know that but with Bush being reelected the world may assume that americans generally support BUSH and all his actions.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

@ Nov. 04 2004,04:12)]

@ Nov. 04 2004,04:10)]Maybe it's time we invade Europe once more but this time for our own interests    

Just don't count on Europe's leaders sitting around reading The Pet Goat if you do.

But rather to shut you up so you can stop forcing to impose your "morals" or "views" when your country has clearly imposed its rule on people involentarily in the past.... And really the US hasn't done any such thing.... So let us have our go at becoming a democracy which  allows for expansion of our Ideals and values.....Your colonial rule had already fucked up the world, yet you are just being hipocrits telling us that our nation is wrong. Yet in the past you followed some pretty fucked up way of ruling your colonies and look at them now? Africa is a mess, India and Pakistan are at each other's throats and the whole Asia minor area which once used to be under British control is in shambles..... Even prior to the 1st Gulf war.

HA HA HA HA HA

So so hypocritical, read up on US foriegn policy and this is all the US ever does. Korea,Vietnam/Indochina,Iraq.

Example One: US government during and after WWII tell it's Allies who have an Empire to basically give the countries back, so what does the US do they fund the French so there paying 80% of the war effort through Marshall aid in indochina so that the french can keep there empire in Asia. The french were fighting the Vietminh who were a socialist gurilla group fighting french imperial rule, but get this in WWII the US actively supported them because they were fighting the Japs.

HA HA yea the us never do these types of things.

[jackson42 0]

Here in Germany everything about Bush is said to be negative. I don't know a single person in Germany who believes that Bush is the better possiblity for America and the World.

Well, well, at least he's got one trusty follower, doesn't he?

BTW Do you really think that if this election would have taken place in germany there would not have been at least 40-50% bush votes?

Today people have their own opinions and can say this in public.

Hell yes! Freedom of speech, they just have to watch what they say otherwise they will end up in Guantanamo Bay.

There are only a few terrorist who fight against the new freedom in Iraq..

Oh well, Iraq did not become Al Qaeida recruitment and initiation territory then? You did listen to the last Bin Laden tape, did you?

[shadow 6]

Not sure if this has been posted before or not (too many pages to read).

Some fun shit at Netscape. I guess the person who wrote the article was'nt too fond of the result LOL

[CounterForce 0]

in germany church and state are seperated. You may believe it is a sin, but you cant declare it to be a criminal act!

Church and state are seperated in Germany (at least if you don't pay church taxes), this is correct and I never said they are not.

But I know there have been trails because of people saying that homosexuality is a sin! This doesnot happen very often and if you only say it in your church it might not happen, but it has happened before and it will happen in the future because there will always be people who don't accecpt homosexual marriage and say that.

Quote[/b] ]

That is even more incorect! Oh by the way. When Cologne was bombed, life in Berlin continued as normal. When Berlin was bombed, cologne was peaceful.

Nice argumentation!

Only a few terorists to fight against the US? hmmm, not bad for a few terorists to launch daily attacks, kill a dozen per day and keep the country unstable. Must be bunch of hell of well equipped Mofos then!

First: Please READ what I have written.

I did not write: Only few terrorist fight against the US..... If there were fighting the US they would bomb only the US, not mostly iraqi instiutions standing for the new democracy and freedom.

What is incorrect if I say that life in Iraq goes on as normal in Iraq at the moment for most people. This is what is happening there.

Of course the situation in Iraq is not stable in some regions at the moment because of daily terror acts, but it is still better that Saddam being in power.