Us presidential election 2004

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are linking storys to swiftvets.com. when i am linking to reuters, bbc and cnn.

You are noth worth my attention if you really think that swiftvets.com is a reliable site. You have failed to proove anything i have asked for. Bye.

You did not:

a) State specificially the claims that you say the swiftvets are lying about, and

b) Provide evidence to refute those claims. You never provided me with any links: only a quote from someone on this forum.

You are trying to argue that the claims made by the swiftvets are untrue, yet you will not respond to their specific claims when I posted them here. That is not a convincing way to prove that somebody is lying.

--------EDIT -- For educational purposes only

In logic, this type of fallacious argument is called "Petitio Principii"--"Postulation of the Beginning". Commonly called "Begging the Question". This is where you employ the conclusion of an argument as a premise in support of that same conclusion. For example:

1. The bible says God exists

2. The bible is the word of god

3. Anything that is the word of god is true

4. Therefore, God exists.

This is exactly the type of argument that turms is trying to make:

1. The swiftvets are lying

2. You are using their website as evidence that they aren't lying

3. Their website is not a reliable site

4. Your evidence is thus invalid

4. Therefore, they are indeed lying.

Notice that the 3rd premise is based on the 1st premise; his entire argument is based on the premise that the vets are lying, yet he does not actually support that premise. Instead, he uses that premise to try to discredit any evidence to the contrary. That's fuzzy logic, if I ever saw it....

-----------END EDIT

Quote[/b] ] how the hell this has become the focus of the election I have no clue....

Eight words: "I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty!"

John Kerry made his Vietnam service the focus of his campaign. I guess he thinks his 4 months in vietnam is more important than his 19 years in the senate... or else he doesn't think he can win by running on the votes he cast in the senate.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]how the hell this has become the focus of the election I have no clue....

Simple. Kerry has used his four-month tour as a jumping point in campaign after campaign, and Swift Boat vets have been pursuing him for just as long. This is not just something whipped up for 2004, it has been going on since Kerry's first campaign for public office.

Quote[/b] ]if I ever run across the other of "unfit for duty" he's gonna get a first class all american ass kickin!!

He'll kick back . And the author is not responsible for Kerry trying to milk his tour for all the political juice that he can get out of it.

[Akira 0]

And you havent prooven a single thing that the Swifties have lied. But I think it is pretty obvious that it is untrue that "crimes and atrocities were committed on a day to day basis" by the US in the Vietnam war, which Kerry said. But Kerry hasn't even tried to refute what he said--which is why these vets are still pissed off at him. He hasn't apoligised for slandering them yet.

Really? What makes it so obvious for you? You're experience and service spent in VietNam?

But that is irrelevant. I found his testimony in PDF format here.

Testimony

My stupid Acrobat won't let me copy and paste, so I will have to make a summary, while pointing out the testimony.

For starters, you will see Kerry, in his opening statement, stated he would only be talking in very general terms, as he didn't have sufficient time to prepare a statement.

Next, comes the part that has so many in a snit. You will notice that not once does Kerry accuse veterans of "acting like Ghengis Khan" (other than as a metaphor what the veterans had testified to)or anything of the sort. In fact, what he does say is that there was an investigation in Detroit, and that the veterans there described and testified to what they had done. Kerry doesn't once accuse veterans of doing these atrocities, but the veterans at Detroit themselves stated they did these things.

Also, you will notice he says that the veterans were reliving, "what this country, in a sense, made them do."

Next, carry speaks of the "monsters" the country had created, in form of veterans and young soldiers drafted and made to kill and do violence, and then threw them right back into civilian life. He explains the veterans anger for the death and dying caused by the US for nothing real. (I expect such testimony a few years after Iraq).

Then he, interestingly, talks about the "misfits" VP Agnew used as a rallying point at a West Point address. The "misfits" being anti-war demonstrators, and how many veterans would come back (or would have come back had they not died), and joined these misfits to protest the unjust war. He also talks of the wounded left to wallow in VA hospitals. (Iraq anyone?)

He also states that there was and is nothing in Vietnam or Cambodia or Laos that threatens the US, or that justifies one American death. (Man...the parallels to Iraq are uncanny)

Then he tells of his and other veterans experiences in Vietnam with their people, and how the US had no business there. That Vietnam was shaking itself of its colonial roots and that the people only wanted to work "without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart."

Seems reasonable.

He then follows that up with how the veterans witnessed their comrades dying in rice paddies while US tax dollars were spent propping up a corrupt dictorial regime.

He states they witnessed the country be torn to hell by US bombs and search and destory missions and Viet Cong terrorism, only to see the US blame it all on the Viet Cong.

And here is a very strong and interesting quote, and one that is still very very true today:

"We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very cooly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum."

"We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while American placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals."

The rest really holds nothing new. He talks of unwanted veterans returning, about the hypocrisy and extreme arrogance of the "Vietnamizing the Vietnamese," of the complete lack of anger or caring in America because they have just accepted the war (sound familiar?).

In any case, thanks for making me look that up to prove you wrong. It just increases my view of Kerry. Your swallowing of the the Republican and conservative stations like Fox interpretation of his testimony, when indeed it is available, leaves your "libertarian" claims up to scrutiny. Sounds like another parrot to me.

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]--------EDIT -- For educational purposes only

In logic, this type of fallacious argument is called "Petitio Principii"--"Postulation of the Beginning". Commonly called "Begging the Question". This is where you employ the conclusion of an argument as a premise in support of that same conclusion. For example:

1. The bible says God exists

2. The bible is the word of god

3. Anything that is the word of god is true

4. Therefore, God exists.

This is exactly the type of argument that turms is trying to make:

1. The swiftvets are lying

2. You are using their website as evidence that they aren't lying

3. Their website is not a reliable site

4. Your evidence is thus invalid

4. Therefore, they are indeed lying.

Notice that the 3rd premise is based on the 1st premise; his entire argument is based on the premise that the vets are lying, yet he does not actually support that premise. Instead, he uses that premise to try to discredit any evidence to the contrary. That's fuzzy logic, if I ever saw it....

-----------END EDIT

I call that "Trying To Hide The Fact One Has No Independant Sources."

Quote[/b] ]Simple. Kerry has used his four-month tour as a jumping point in campaign after campaign, and Swift Boat vets have been pursuing him for just as long. This is not just something whipped up for 2004, it has been going on since Kerry's first campaign for public office.

John O'Neill, the veteran hired by NIXON to debate Kerry chased him after his testimony. Hardly "independant" or "non-partisan".

Quote[/b] ]John Kerry made his Vietnam service the focus of his campaign.

Another mis-informed statment! Bravo!

Bush first brought up Kerry's service. And in any case, Bush invites comparisons of Vietnam records when he struts around on aircraft carriers and calls himself a "war president." Bush can't even compare, due to the simple fact he dodged out of having to go there. It's that simple. That is why he's trying to back away from the subject now.

Quote[/b] ]If he doesn't have anything to hide, then why wouldn't he release those records?

Why should he have to release his personal medical records? We've already covered this ground, but for your sake we'll do it again.

Kerry has released ALL his records except for medical records, which are, rightfully, private. But you state Bush has released all his records which is patently FALSE. And I especially like the Pentagon first "destroying" (accidently of course), and then only "losing" and then suddenly "finding" some of Bush's records. Yeah thats not suspicious or anything.

And you of course swallowed the Bush statement that Kerry has n't released his records, while at the same time not demanding Bush's. That in itself speaks for itself.

But that fact is if Bush can only dispute ONE of Kerry's medals, and that is the focus of their campaign, really speaks volumes, coming from someone who was in all probability, coked up and drunk while Kerry was earning a Bronze Star. Let us see Bush's medals.

As has already been stated, Kerry's account of his Bronze Star action is backed up by all his crew members, the man he saved, and a swift boat veteran who is now a journalist for a Boston newspaper. The only person to dispute Kerry's version, earned his Bronze Star from the very same Kerry report. So which is it?

Quote[/b] ] However, Kerry claimed that such things occured "on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command". THAT statement slandered EVERY one of his "brothers" who fought in Vietnam. It is also a baldfaced, disgraceful lie. It is disgusting that this man would say those kinds of things, and then run for president claiming to be a war hero who is proud of his service.

As I stated, he said nothing of the sort. What is really disgusting is people that don't bother to look for themselves what the deal is, and just swallowing whatever the good old television tells them. You have Fox News on your favorites list on your remote don't you?

Quote[/b] ]Well they do have their connections, I'm sure Hitler was grateful for all the financial support recieved from the Bush family during WW2.

Err...I have no idea what that is about. Any links or proof?

Quote[/b] ]No one said the dems shouldn't argue back. But I don't see how you are "arguing for freedom" if you try to use the power of government to shut your critics up, which is exactly what Kerry is trying to do. I didn't see Bush reacting to Moore's film in the same way Kerry is reacting to these ads. You tell me who is on the side of free speech there.

No he's not. He's trying to shut up a group that claims to be "independant" but yet still has a series of ties straight to the Bush campaign. That is illegal.

Moore never claimed that his piece was not biased, and only an idiot would assume it had no agenda. He never claimed to be "independant" or "unbiased" as Swift Boat Veterans does.

As for the power of government to shut your critics up...."Patriot Act" anyone?

[General Barron 0]

Good to see you found a transcript. First off, lets take on his claim that "150 honorably discharged and many highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in southeast asia".

This book (Stolen Valor) talks alot about how this "hearing" was a bunch of bullshit:

http://www.amazon.com/exec....6845414

First off, this "investigation", called the Winter Soldiers Hearing, was funded by communist sympathizer Jane Fonda. The rest of the funders were pretty shady characters as well:

Quote[/b] ]Lawyer and activist Mark Lane was one of the organizers of Winter Soldier. In 1970, Lane had published a book called Conversations With Americans, in which Vietnam veterans told their stories of committing atrocities and witnessing endless war crimes committed by their fellow soldiers. Many of these tales were obviously absurd. As James Reston Jr. pointed out in a review of the book, Lane quoted one man's contention that a female Communist sympathizer was interrogated, tortured, and then raped by every soldier in his battalion. "Lane does not explain that in Vietnam an American battalion runs anywhere from one thousand to twelve hundred men," Reston said.

Many of those same liars quoted in Lane's book. "Winter soldier" Michael Schneider testified that he had been told by a sadistic lieutenant to attach wires from a field telephone to a mans testicles, which Kerry uses in his speech. Schneider told Lane that his father was a:

Quote[/b] ]"Full colonel. Commanding officer in 11th Cavalry Regiment now," Schneider said, contending that his father changed his name after the war from Dieter von Kronenberger and switched loyalties to the American military.

The book goes on to say:

Quote[/b] ]Lane's point was clear: Nazis are running large American units in Vietnam. Vietnam soldiers are just like the Nazis. But Sheehan pointed out that at the time there was no Colonel Schneider or Von Kronenberger in the U.S. Army, and no one by that name ever commanded the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. Schneider's stories about his father were bogus, as were those about his own service: Schneider deserted from Europe, not Vietnam.

This "hearing" that Kerry had attended was chock full of such liars. Some fake "witnesses" had even appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.

Aside from the fact that the 'testimony' Kerry based his "off the cuff" speech on, it also turns out that a speechwriter for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky wrote the speech, and also tutored him on how to present it. Anyway, now onto the speech:

http://ice.he.net/~freepn....4347380

He starts off his speech by saying that those "winter soldiers" (the liars and conmen who claimed that they had been in Vietnam, but really hadn't) told stories about how they personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, randomly shot at civillians, etc etc. You're right, Kerry didn't say that he personally saw those things, but he did pass along outright lies, either knowingly or unknowingly.

Quote[/b] ]We cannot consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia

LOL! Yeah, at the time it was politically savvy to be "ashamed" of his service. How come he is so proud of it now, all the sudden? But that is just like Kerry isn't it? He flip-flops on just about every issue; why would this be any different?

He then goes on to claim that the people of South Vietnam basically didn't care if their country was taken over by the North Vietnamese. Right. He later says that "we [the US military] are more guilty than any other body [group/army] of violations of those Geneva Conventions...". He then says that he wishes he could forget the memories of his service (but I guess remember them again when running for president).

I especially like his conclusion: "...30 years from now....we will be able to say 'Vietnam' and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory but mean instead the place where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning." Yup, "soldiers" like Kerry sure helped America turn and run in vietnam... and just look at how happy they are now under their new, oppressive communist dictatorship?

Anyway, I'm getting off the subject. I'm not trying to argue whether the Vietnam war was good or bad. Although, you're right that a lot of the arguments Kerry made could be used against the Iraq war today. It really makes me wonder why Kerry isn't talking like that today. He voted for the war in Iraq, and he isn't running on the claim that he will pull us out of Iraq right now, like Dean was. Could it be that, <gasp> he bases his positions on what he thinks will get him ahead politically, instead of some sort of moral code? Again, that sure would explain all those flip-flops that Kerry loves to make. And the way he always tries to straddle both sides of the issue. Whether you agree or disagree with Bush, you have to admit: he makes his positions very clear. And he sticks to his positions, even when they become somewhat unpopular (such as Iraq). You can't say the same thing about Kerry.

However, the Swiftie's 2nd ad (the one where they use parts of Kerry's speech we are talking about) is an attempt to show that he basically let-down his "band of brothers" when he got back home. Vietnam Vets were spit on, yelled at, insulted, called baby-killers, etc, and the Swifties are trying to say that Kerry helped to stir up that kind of hatred. I wasn't alive then, but I would think that having somebody say the things Kerry said to congress would have that effect (Not a long-haired hippie, but a clean-cut, rich veteran).

So tell me, what exactly is wrong about the swifties commercial again? If there isn't anything wrong with what Kerry said, then why all this fuss? I'm sure it has nothing to do with what is politically popular at the time, either.

[Kaliyuga 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well they do have their connections, I'm sure Hitler was grateful for all the financial support recieved from the Bush family during WW2.

Err...I have no idea what that is about. Any links or proof?

In 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act, the U.S. government seized several companies in which Prescott Bush had an interest. Prescott at the time was an investment banker with Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), which had funneled U.S. capital into Germany during the 1920s and '30s. Among the seized companies was the Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York, which was controlled by German industrialist Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen had been an early financier of the Nazi party--in fact, in 1941 he published a book entitled I Paid Hitler. Ergo, Prescott helped finance the Nazis.

http://www.fact-index.com/t/tr/trading_with_the_enemy_act.html

http://www.georgewalkerbush.net/bushfamilyfundedhitler.htm

[General Barron 0]

You made a big edit, so I'll make a new post instead of editing the other one.

Quote[/b] ]Your swallowing of the the Republican and conservative stations like Fox interpretation of his testimony, when indeed it is available, leaves your "libertarian" claims up to scrutiny. Sounds like another parrot to me.

So Fox News doesn't count as a news source anymore? But CNN or the New York Times aren't liberal news sources, right? BS. TV and print media in the US are so overwhelmingly liberal, yet you don't hear me complaining that quoting CNN is "swallowing the Democratic line". Don't call someone a parrot just because they disagree with you. You don't even know what a Libertarian is, so perhaps you should stay away from the name calling, and try to debate your positions huh?

Quote[/b] ]I call that "Trying To Hide The Fact One Has No Independant Sources."

What are your "independant sources"? My sources are the sworn testimony of veterans who served with Kerry, the doctor who treated Kerry's wound, and the Kerry campaign's own statements. You still haven't disputed the claims made. I call that "trying to hide the fact that one is just blindly supporting Kerry, instead of looking at both sides of the issue"

Quote[/b] ]Another mis-informed statment! Bravo!

Bush first brought up Kerry's service.

LOL!!! I'm guessing you haven't heard of John Kerry until this year. The man can't open his mouth without talking about his military service. During the Democratic primary, Kerry ran on his military service. Why would Bush have brought up Kerry's service when Kerry was just one of many nominees?

And I don't see how 4 months in vietnam qualifies Kerry to be president anyway. Most of our wartime presidents never served in the military, yet we won those wars anyway. Bush has been president for 4 years, and he is claiming that what he did in those 4 years qualifies him to be president again.

Kerry was in the senate for 19 years. Yet he is using his 4 month stint in Vietnam to say he qualifies for president. It makes no sense to me logically, but politically it makes perfect sense: Kerry wants to be seen as strong on defense, but his voting record shows him as the opposite. Hence, he relies on the current pro-military attitude instead of what he has been doing in the government for the last 19 years.

Quote[/b] ]What is really disgusting is people that don't bother to look for themselves what the deal is, and just swallowing whatever the good old television tells them.

Errr... it sounds to me like you didn't look it up for yourself either:

Quote[/b] ] thanks for making me look that up to prove you wrong.

And actually, I don't watch the news much, and usually I watch CNN when I do. I read the liberally-biased newspaper, and I listen to conservatively-biased talk radio.

Quote[/b] ]But that fact is if Bush can only dispute ONE of Kerry's medals, and that is the focus of their campaign

Um.... show me some sort of evidence that the focus of Bush's campaign is to dispute one of Kerry's medals. You are really talking nonsense here. How long ago did the first Swifties ad air? If it was some 6 months ago, I must have missed it. I could have sworn that Bush was running on what he did in the last 4 years, not what happened in 4 months at Vietnam....

Quote[/b] ]No he's not. He's trying to shut up a group that claims to be "independant" but yet still has a series of ties straight to the Bush campaign. That is illegal.

First, there are just as many "ties" between the Dems and many other 527's. Secondly, Kerry is also trying to get publishers of "Unfit for Command" to stop the book. And last, Kerry is dodging the entire issue that the Vets are bringing up, and instead trying to, as you said, shut them up. He isn't even trying to do both at the same time. That speaks volumes about Kerry, IMO, and it ain't good. Kerry is reacting to this whole thing like a real sleazball, if you ask me.

Quote[/b] ]As for the power of government to shut your critics up...."Patriot Act" anyone?

And did Kerry vote for or against that act?

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Good to see you found a transcript.

To

Quote[/b] ]We cannot consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia

That is an irrelevant point, as he did not know that falacies at that time (and I can not attest to the falacies. I will have to investigate and get back on that), and it was not he that made these assertations. If all he did was "pass them on" at the time, he has nothing to apologize for, because he personally didn't accuse anyone of anything.

Why are the veterans not demanding apologies from the veterans that testified in Detriot, something that has nothing to do with this election? Probably because it would not further their own politcal goals.

If he has to apologize for unknowingly passing on "lies" (again I will have to investigate), then where is Bush's apology for leading this country to war on lies? Kerry's testimony didn't kill 11000+ Iraqis and 1000+ American soldiers. Bush's did.

And despite what everyone says, sticking to your guns is not an admirable trait when you are proven wrong after thousands of innocent deaths. In fact that is something to investigate, and charge for extreme negligence.

Quote[/b] ]I especially like his conclusion: "...30 years from now....we will be able to say 'Vietnam' and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory but mean instead the place where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning." Yup, "soldiers" like Kerry sure helped America turn and run in vietnam... and just look at how happy they are now under their new, oppressive communist dictatorship?

Umm...do you know anything about Vietnam now? It is prospering and the people are indeed quite happy. Why not? No one is napalming the hell out of their villages and trying to say they are here to protect them (no...we are doing it in Iraq instead now).

And the fact is, many of the munitions used by the US in Vietnam are indeed outlawed now by the Geneva Convention, something that we ratified, and apaprently are still using in Iraq (cluster bombs, torture, etc).

Kerry's position on voting for force on Iraq has already been discussed. His vote, (and many other members of Congress) was based on the fact the President would exhaust all avenues. Can we really say he even tried that?

Quote[/b] ]However, the Swiftie's 2nd ad (the one where they use parts of Kerry's speech we are talking about) is an attempt to show that he basically let-down his "band of brothers" when he got back home. Vietnam Vets were spit on, yelled at, insulted, called baby-killers, etc, and the Swifties are trying to say that Kerry helped to stir up that kind of hatred.

Kerry had nothing to do with the nations reaction, and to try and claim so is merely playing on this nations continued guilt over the treatment of veterans, nothing more. Kerry let down no one. Kerry was a mere member of a group of veterans who had been in the war, and felt it wrong. So what were you saying about silencing of the opposition?

Quote[/b] ]So tell me, what exactly is wrong about the swifties commercial again? If there isn't anything wrong with what Kerry said, then why all this fuss?

Because they rightly assume people will not find out for themselves what he said exactly, and just take their word for it. It's a politcal gambit from a highly partisan group and nothing more. Unfortunately, many people will take it for truth.

I'd much rather have an alleged "flip-flopper" than a country bumpkin that takes this country to war, and kills thousands for a personal vendetta.

EDIT: Damn it. I see you added a new post. It's 1am here and I am sleepy so I will have to reply tomorrow.

[General Barron 0]

@Kaliyuga

Sorry, but your arguments are automatically untrue because you got that info from biased sources, according to Akira.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]I didn't see Bush reacting to Moore's film in the same way Kerry is reacting to these ads. You tell me who is on the side of free speech there.

What point was untrue and funded/supported by Kerry in fahrenheit?

Quote[/b] ]And why doesn't Kerry defend himself against the specific charges made by the swift boat vets, instead of just trying to call them a bunch republican puppets? You'd think that if they were wrong and he was right, then he'd point out where they are wrong, instead of just trying to kill the messengers.

Reuters story about what happened. This guys and Kerrys storys are backed up by official military records. What possible else would you need to believe that Kerry needs to defend himself against a bunch of liars?

Quote[/b] ]And you havent prooven a single thing that the Swifties have lied.

I heve prooven that they lied about what happened in Mekong delta river. Read the above article.

Let me quote Akira again:

Quote[/b] ]

All of the SBVfT claims about Kerry, including his false Purple Heart, and the account of events leading to his Bronze Star, have been backed up by Navy records, and people that were actually there.

Members of SBVfT that raise doubts about these events, turn out they weren't even there, including the doctor who claimed to work on Kerry's wound, in direct contradiction to Navy records.

Quote[/b] ]

The wound was covered with a bandaid.

As said by the doctor who treated the wound. Wow, thats some wound... even if it was obtained from enemy fire, I would hardly think that qualifies him for a purple heart

With what do they cover the wounds usually if not with bandaid?

At the same time GWB was getting his teeths fixed back in the states.

Quote[/b] ]Now, of course figuring out the truth would be easier, if Kerry would disclose his full service records (as was demanded of Bush, who did so):

So tell me; what records of Kerry still hasnt been published?

The medical records are persoanl, everything else has been published.

If he doesn't have anything to hide, then why wouldn't he release those records?

Quote[/b] ]If he doesn't have anything to hide, then why wouldn't he release those records?

They are all released, expect the medical records. You can find them all Here

Now where are the Bush documents? Mistakingly disappeared? What a coincidence!

Quote[/b] ]You did not:

a) State specificially the claims that you say the swiftvets are lying about, and

Look above. Mekong river.

Quote[/b] ]b) Provide evidence to refute those claims. You never provided me with any links: only a quote from someone on this forum.

Look above, Reuters link.

Quote[/b] ]You are trying to argue that the claims made by the swiftvets are untrue, yet you will not respond to their specific claims when I posted them here. That is not a convincing way to prove that somebody is lying.

They are lying. Read the links I posted. Post a independent source for your counter-claims.

Quote[/b] ]This "hearing" that Kerry had attended was chock full of such liars. Some fake "witnesses" had even appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.

It isnt about the credibility of these individuals. It is about that Kerry quoted these guys, he did not say for a truth that cruelties happened day to day basis. Unlike swiftvets are saying. Kerry simply quoted other guys.

Quote[/b] ]So tell me, what exactly is wrong about the swifties commercial again? If there isn't anything wrong with what Kerry said, then why all this fuss? I'm sure it has nothing to do with what is politically popular at the time, either.

1. They lied about what Kerry said in the congressional hearing.

2.They lied about what happened in Meekong delta.

Quote[/b] ]My sources are the sworn testimony of veterans who served with Kerry, the doctor who treated Kerry's wound, and the Kerry campaign's own statements.

Interesting, yet in last page you say: "the doctor who treated his wound wasn't even there. "

Your source(s) are swiftvets.com. They have been prooven to knowingly lying to the public.

"Thurlow described Kerry's Bronze Star citation as "totally fabricated," saying "I never heard a shot."

"Thurlow said he got the award for helping to rescue the boat that was mined."

""We weren't under fire,"

"I've had no serious involvement in politics of any kind in over 32 years." O'Neill also denied being a Republican.

Yet Federal Election Commission records show O'Neill has contributed $14,650 to political candidates -- all Republicans -- since 1990.

Couple of random lies for you.

Quote[/b] ]And I don't see how 4 months in vietnam qualifies Kerry to be president anyway.

I dont know how vietnam war dodger, ex alcoholic, ex cocaine addict is qualified to be the president.

Quote[/b] ]Most of our wartime presidents never served in the military, yet we won those wars anyway.

Are you "winning" the war on terrorism also?

Are you "winning" in Iraq now?

Quote[/b] ]Bush has been president for 4 years, and he is claiming that what he did in those 4 years qualifies him to be president again.

Lets see what he has done.

*He started an illegal war (dont remember how many killed in total)

*He implemented laws that abuse your rights (patriot act)

*He has read the book named Little Goat

*He has broken the friendly ties of USA to the rest of this world

*Guantamo, Abu-Ghraib

*He has driven USA into record deficit

*He has driven USA into record unemployment

etc.etc

So you tell me, what has Bush done in 4 years in your eyes?

Quote[/b] ]First, there are just as many "ties" between the Dems and many other 527's.

No there is not. Nothing has been prooven or even questioned.

Unlike reps.

Quote[/b] ]And last, Kerry is dodging the entire issue that the Vets are bringing up, and instead trying to, as you said, shut them up. He isn't even trying to do both at the same time. That speaks volumes about Kerry, IMO, and it ain't good. Kerry is reacting to this whole thing like a real sleazball, if you ask me.

Well what would you like him to do? Kerry is correcting the lies made by jolly swiftliars.

Quote[/b] ]Kerry is also trying to get publishers of "Unfit for Command" to stop the book.

What book is that? What is your source for this? (swiftliars.com doesnt count)

Quote[/b] ]Sorry, but your arguments are automatically untrue because you got that info from biased sources, according to Akira.

I must of have missed something Akira said.

Quote[/b] ]The way I was taught it in school, the law looks at these things differently when the supposed "victim" is a celebrity/president/senator.

More publicity it gets, more serious the crime gets.

Quote[/b] ]If you consider the swifties ads libel, than surely you would consider some of the stuff coming from the left libel as well?

The difference (again) is that Kerrys campaign wasnt funding or co-operating with these groups. Unlike Bush campaign.

Quote[/b] ]Ah yes. And of course, the president has absolutely full control over the economy. There is no congress, there is no free market, there was no 9/11....

Your president has fucked up trade ties with the most of the world. Haliburton is the only one gaining from the present situation. Bushes actions are straightly comparable to the wellbeeing of american people. War in Iraq is costing huge amounts of money. Where do you think that money is away of?

[walker 0]

Hi General Barron

You want to use non reputable sources like the swift fantsists that is fine. Like I said Backlash is a B*tch.

I prerfer the original sources, the US Navy and National Guard records.

If you wish to compare them ALL John Kerry's military records are on line on his site.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

I went to http://www.georgewbush.com/Bios/GeorgeWBush.aspx and did a search aparently he has not put ALL his records on line. Perhaps you can find it for me on his site.

Later tommorow I will post them up but they wont be from Bush's site.

As to the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Jnr on truth I feel it best to quote him

Quote[/b] ]"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do it, that's trustworthiness." George W. Bush [8/30/00] CNN

For news outlets I prefer those with a proven record of independant thought: CBS, MSNBC, BBC, Yahoo News, Washington Post, USA Today etc.

All those after reporting what the swift fantsists said have come to the conclusion the the swift fantsists lied. As A result 60% and rising of those in the US now say the swift fantsists lied. Like I said Backlash is a B*tch.

Kind Regards Walker

[DarkLight 0]

Why the hell is everyone so scared to vote on Kerry?

It's not like he can do much worse than Bush...

Sheesh, if i were an american i'd vote on anyone except Bush...

[kerosene 0]

Its sad how conservatives have managed to paint objective, neutral journalism as "liberal".  CNN is middle of the road at best just like most other news networks.  

Fox isnt news, they lie, dleiberatley and constantly and overtly.  A few days ago I heard one of their worthless commentators still churrning out that "al gore said he invented the internet" crap.  Can you imagine the kind of field day Fox would have if there was a democrat with Bush. Jr's history?  Clinton was forced to come out with that "i smoked but i didnt inhale" bs, why is no one on Bushs ass to say flat out "i have never done coke."

The man was a coked-up, alchoholic loser well into his 30's whos rich daddy bailed him out time and time again, if there was a liberal bias in the T.V media why dont they keep sragging his past up, when was the last time you saw a journalist ask Bush tough questions?

I dont know if people already read this, but it's transcript of a fox news interview with Scott Ritter.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62916,00.html

The interviewer is a clown, he also dosent know what the word "secular" means.  

------

Its funy how right wingers all around the world share one thing in common, there country never did anything wrong, ever.  Why do people find it so difficult to accept that crimes where committed in Vietnam  - Gulf of Tonkin, Phoenix programme, illegal wars against Cambodia and Laos, My Lai was covered up for a year, and when it did come out the army tried repeadley to downplay the number of casualties - not to mention the joke trial. - yeah theres no reason to belive that other smaller scale stuff went unpunished or was covered up.  

"their new, oppressive communist dictatorship"

The South Vietnamese government was a crappy dictatorship that was propped up for ideological reasons, it wasnt anything to do with defending freedom or democracy.

"soldiers" like Kerry sure helped America turn and run in vietnam" ? - have you heard of the pentagon papers, that war was lost long before the U.S withdrew and the government knew it, they just kept pumping in troops to prove a point.

P.S, which have Bush Jr's records have been permanently sealed?  I read something about that.

[Balschoiw 0]

His Texas records, Cheneys records and his daddies records, just in case...

Executive Order 13233, or better say let´s cover up some things and make sure noone ever sees them

[walker 0]

Hi all

The Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior Swift fantasies are all about the fact that the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior is not fit for the job of Commander in Chief.

The key Points

George Bush Junior's Duty

On 9/11 the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior was the man on watch.

No if buts or maybes he was the Commander in Chief on September 11th nobody else.

It was his duty to order the aircraft into the air to the nations defense.

He was trained and expected to get Nuclear Football to a new and safe location away from his known itinerary and make the decision for America's defense in 10 minutes. This because that is the shortest flight time for Russian sub launched nukes.

The Clock was ticking

No Matter what form the attack took; the minute Andrew Card walks up to the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior while he is listening to a Goat Story with 16 second graders in Sandra Kay Daniels’s class at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida. Card whispers in his ear "A second plane has hit the World Trade Center. America is under attack." the clock is ticking and it is a time for executive decisions.

He must assess if the attack is a prelude to a nuclear strike he must be getting up to the second intel on which to make command decisions.

George Bush Junior froze in fear

When it came to the crunch he failed he 'combat froze' it is there on record and on Film he froze in abject terror when America needed a strong leader and Commander in Chief he was not there. He fell into the classic rabbit in the snakes glare freeze his only activities are displacement activities. No Action, no command decision no gathering of intel. Nothing. Naught. Nada.

Nobody Else is to Blame

George Bush Junior can not say oh well Clinton should of done this and Clinton should have done that Clinton was not the Commander in Chief on 9/11 George Bush Junior was.

George Bush Junior can not say oh well John F. Kerry should have should of done this and John F. Kerry should have done that John F. Kerry was not the Commander in Chief on 9/11 George Bush Junior was.

George Bush Junior can not say oh well the Michael Moore should of done this and Michael Moore should have done that Michael Moore was not Commander in Chief on 9/11 George Bush Junior was.

George Bush Junior cannot cope in a crisis

George Bush Junior is no good in an emergency he is not a leader he has to be told what to do. He sits there reading a book about a goat as America is under attack.

He is so frozen with terror an aid has to come and tell him to get off his butt, while the time limit he is trained expected to to act under has been quietly slipping away.

It is his job to react to an attack on US soil but he does not do it.

Quote[/b] ]9:01 a.m.: Bush later makes the following statement. "And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on, and I used to fly myself, and I said, 'There's one terrible pilot.' And I said, 'It must have been a horrible accident.' But I was whisked off from there -- I didn't have much time to think about it." Bush could not have possibly seen the first plane (American Airlines Flight 11) hit the WTC, because the only video showing this was not shown on television till later in the day. So how could he have possibly seen and said this?

9:05 a.m.: Andrew Card walks up to Bush while he is listening to a Goat Story with 16 second graders in Sandra Kay Daniels’s class at Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida. Card whispers in his ear "A second plane has hit the World Trade Center. America is under attack." Bush (commander-and-chief?) keeps listening to this Goat Story

9:23 a.m.: Bush talks privately with Cheney, his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller and Governor George Pataki of New York. Why does Bush wait from 9:05 (when Andrew Card tells him of United Airlines Flight 175 hitting the WTC) till 9:23 to finally call? He still does not give the authority to the fighters to shoot down any hostile airliners. What is he waiting for?

83) 9:30 a m.: Bush, speaking to the nation from Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida, says the country has suffered an "apparent terrorist attack" and "a national tragedy." He would chase down, "those folks who committed this act." Bush also said, "Terrorism against our nation will not stand." It was an echo of "This will not stand," the words his father, George H. W. Bush, had used a few days after Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990-in Bush's opinion, one of his father's finest moments.

http://www.911timeline.net/

Quote[/b] ]Now the only airliner left in the sky with its IFF transponder signal off which has just made a 180 degree turn over southern Ohio / northeastern Kentucky and has been heading directly back to Washington D.C. and The Pentagon since 8:59 a.m. -- is American Airlines Flight 77. Why didn’t these two F-15’s that were 71 miles from NYC and the WTC, immediately redirect to intercept the only dangerous airliner in the sky, American Airlines Flight 77?

These two F-15’s had 34 minutes to reach Washington D.C. before American Airlines Flight 77 hits the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m. The mission of these two F-15’s from the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base is to protect the skies from Washington D.C. to the north. The F-15 has a top speed of 1875+ MPH, so they could have closed the 300 or so miles from their current position to Washington D.C. in just about 10 minutes. At top speed they could have been at the Pentagon 24 minutes before American Airlines Flight 77 hits it.

9:37 a.m.: American Airlines Flight 77 is lost from radar screens and impacts the western side of the Pentagon.

The Failure of George Bush Junior in Command

In all those 34 minutes not once did the commander in chief issue an order for aircraft to defend the nations capitol and the central command of the nations defense.

A Commander in Chief must be able to act. One who freezes and cannot think for himself or issue any orders in the nations defense is not a Commander and is a danger to the nation.

It is the president who authorizes the nations defense no one else is legally entitled too.

The power Vaccum of the Psychologically AWOL Commander in Chief

On 9/11 as the aircraft flew steadily on to the Pentagon no orders came this left a visible dangerous power vacuum.

Afterwards indications are that people lower down or even outside the chain of command started making unauthorized and uncoordinated orders in defense of the nation out of shear frustration that there were no orders coming from the top. There is a rumor that Dick Cheney ordered aircraft in to the air after the pentagon was hit.

What we are talking about is at least as dangerous as no orders coming from the commander in chief and in any case is a result of the power vacuum from the George Bush Jnr. suffering 'combat freeze'.

Suppose the person who usurped the chain of command had interpreted 9/11 as a hostile act by say Russia and attacked a Russian nuclear sub. Remember Only the President has the full story on what is happening, or at least that is what is supposed to happen.

George Bush Junior is just not up to the job of Commander in Chief. And in this time of danger for every family in the USA the nation needs a resolute leader proven under fire to be able to act in an emergency

The Danger of George Bush Junior

The issue is having a Commander in Chief who is proven to be able act in the Nations Defense in an emergency.

At a time of crisis there is no second place.

It is your wives, daughters, husbands, sons, sisters, brothers moms and dads who are put in danger by a commander in chief who is not psychologically able to act in an emergency. Suppose the next attack is North Korean missiles would you risk their life and yours on someone who the video evidence and record shows will freeze in fear unable to give the give the orders for the nations defense.

When the test Came George Bush Junior failed; he could not act.

When the test Came John F. Kerry's military record has proven he will act.

American families need a Leader who will act in the Nation's Defense America will elect John F. Kerry in November.

Kind Regards Ian Walker

[denoir 0]

Bush admits Iraq 'miscalculation' [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

US President George W Bush has acknowledged for the first time that he made a "miscalculation" of what conditions would be in post-war Iraq. Mr Bush told The New York Times that the error was by by-product of a "swift victory" in the initial conflict.

Saddam Hussein's military disappeared into cities, enabling them to mount a rebellion against US troops much faster than Washington anticipated, he said. Mr Bush also told the newspaper John Kerry had not lied over his war record.

On Iraq, Mr Bush said the US's strategy had been "flexible enough" to respond to the long-running insurgency, and said that even now "we're adjusting to our conditions" in places such as Najaf, where a stand-off has just ended between US and Iraqi troops and Shia militants.

But Mr Bush declined to enter into discussion with the newspaper on further mistakes in Iraq.

He said, just as his father has done, that he would resist going "on the couch" to rethink decisions. Asked by the USA Today, in a separate interview, how the death toll - now approaching 1,000 US military personnel - would affect his election chances, he answered: "The president has to make hard decisions.

"My job is to confront problems not pass them on. And the American people have seen me make the hardest of decisions. That's just going to have to be a part of their decision-making process."

John Kerry

On his opponent John Kerry, he declined to condemn the television advertisement paid for by a veterans group alleging that the Democrat presidential candidate came by his medals dishonestly. But he stressed too that he was a victim of the same type of political interest groups - called 527 committees after the section of the tax code which governs this type of organisation - which are attacking Mr Kerry.

"I understand how Senator Kerry feels - I've been attacked by 527s too," he said.

He added that he had spoken earlier to Senator John McCain and had agreed to join him in a lawsuit against the Federal Election Commission to ban the groups.

The war records of President Bush and Mr Kerry have become a key issue in the campaign.

Pyongyang and Tehran

On the environment, Mr Bush appeared unfamiliar with an administration report delivered to Congress this week which suggested that carbon dioxide emissions were the only likely explanation for global warming over the last 30 years, said the newspaper. Mr Bush in the past has said there are uncertainties in understanding the causes of global warming.

Asked why the administration had changed its mind on the causes of global warming, Mr Bush replied: "Ah, we did? I don't think so."

On North Korea and Iran, he said he would not be rushed into setting deadlines for the countries to disarm. The newspaper said in the past Mr Bush has said he would not "tolerate" nuclear capability in either nation, but would not define what he meant by "tolerate".

"I'm confident that over time this will work - I certainly hope it does," he said of the ongoing diplomacy with the two nations.

[walker 0]

Hi all

A few bushisms are always good for a laugh

Quote[/b] ]"I don't want nations feeling like that they can bully

ourselves and our allies. I want to have a ballistic defense

system so that we can make the world more peaceful, and at

the same time I want to reduce our own nuclear capacities to

the level commiserate with keeping the peace."

—Des Moines, Iowa, Oct. 23, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take

dream."

—LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If I'm the president, we're going to have emergency-room care,

we're going to have gag orders."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to

know it."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's one thing about insurance, that's a Washington term."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think we ought to raise the age at which juveniles can have a gun."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it is—I'm not sure 80

percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent will get it if I'm the president."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Quotas are bad for America. It's not the way America is all

about."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If affirmative action means what I just described, what I'm for, then I'm for it."

—St. Louis, Mo., October 18, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Our priorities is our faith."

—Greensboro, N.C., Oct. 10, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial

profiling, which is illiterate children."

—Second presidential debate, Oct. 11, 2000 (Thanks to Leonard Williams.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's going to require numerous IRA agents."

—On Gore's tax plan, Greensboro, N.C., Oct. 10, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question."

—In response to a question about whether he wished he could take back any of his answers in the

first debate. Reynoldsburg, Ohio, Oct. 4, 2000 (Thanks to Peter Feld.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I would have my secretary of treasury be in touch with the

financial centers, not only here but at home."

—Boston, Oct. 3, 2000 (Thanks to M. Bateman.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While speaking about KIPP Academy in Houston, Texas during the debate last night, would-be president Bush said:

"It's a school full of so-called at-risk children. It's how we,

unfortunately, label certain children. It means basically they

can't learn. ... It's one of the best schools in Houston."

So he thinks that "at-risk" means "can't learn?" And that one of the best schools in Houston is filled with students that can't learn? What an idiot. (Thanks Derek Brandon)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... I've been talking to Vicente Fox, the new president of Mexico... I know him... to have gas and oil sent to U.S.... so we'll not depend on foreign oil...

-- on the first Presidential debate, 10/03/2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

—Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I will have a foreign-handed foreign policy."

—Redwood, Calif., Sept. 27, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above that which is expected." --Los Angeles, Sept. 27, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...more and more of our imports are coming from overseas."

-- On NPR's Morning Edition (9/26) - (Thanks Paul ...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry King: "What do people misunderstand about you most"

George Walker Bush: "That I'm running on my dad's name... (!?!)

I'm proud of my dad... I reconciled my love for my dad a long time ago"

-- What the heck is he talking about? (Thanks Dave...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Well, that's going to be up to the pundits and the people to make up their mind. I'll tell you what is a president for him, for example, talking about my record in the state of Texas. I mean, he's willing to say anything in order to convince people that I haven't had a good record in Texas."

--MSNBC, Sept. 20, 2000 (Thanks to Gregory H. Monberg.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I am aperson who recognizes the fallacy of humans...,"

apparently meaning fallibility."

--from "Bush courts women in cozy 'Oprah' visit" by William Goldshclag

printed in the New York City edition of the Daily News, September 20, 2000, page 5 (Thanks Michael...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A tax cut is really one of the anecdotes to coming out of an economic illness."-- The Edge With Paula Zahn, Sept. 18, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The woman who knew that I had dyslexia--I never interviewed her."

--Orange, Calif., Sept. 15, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The best way to relieve families from time is to let them keep some of their own money." —Westminster, Calif., Sept.13, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"They have miscalculated me as a leader." —Ibid.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...I don't need to be subliminabable.." Orlando, FL, Sept. 12 -- when caught using subliminal technique in his dirty ads against Gore... (read more)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"This is what I'm good at. I like meeting people, my fellow citizens, I like interfacing with them."—Outside Pittsburgh, Sept. 8, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"That's Washington. That's the place where you find people getting ready to jump out of the foxholes before the first shot is fired."

—Westland, Mich., Sept. 8, 2000

http://www.bushisms.com/index1a.html

He missed his calling he should have been commedien. Oh! wait a minute they have to intend to tell a joke.

Kind Regards Walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Does anyone have a link to the video where Bush is drunk at a party and tells incrdibly much nonsense and is beeped a lot ? I lost the file

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]A few days ago I heard one of their worthless commentators still churrning out that "al gore said he invented the internet" crap.

ROFL, He did say he lead the way.

Quote[/b] ]

Why the hell is everyone so scared to vote on Kerry?  

It's not like he can do much worse than Bush...

Sheesh, if i were an american i'd vote on anyone except Bush...

What has he done in the last 20 years that he could actually put his name on it?

Quote[/b] ]Reuters story about what happened. This guys and Kerrys storys are backed up by official military records. What possible else would you need to believe that Kerry needs to defend himself against a bunch of liars?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-nws-novak27.html

Quote[/b] ]

Admiral speaks out, disputes Kerry's account of 1st wound

August 27, 2004

BY ROBERT NOVAK SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

NEW YORK -- Retired Rear Adm. William L. Schachte Jr. said Thursday in his first on-the-record interview about the swift boat veterans dispute that "I was absolutely in the skimmer" in the early morning on Dec. 2, 1968, when Lt. (j.g.) John Kerry was involved in an incident that led to his first Purple Heart.

"Kerry nicked himself with a M-79 [grenade launcher]," Schachte said in a telephone interview from his home in Charleston, S.C. He said, "Kerry requested a Purple Heart."

Schachte, a lieutenant, said he was in command of the small boat called a Boston whaler or skimmer, with Kerry aboard in his first combat mission in the Vietnam War. The third crew member was an enlisted man, whose name Schachte did not remember.

Two enlisted men who appeared at the podium with Kerry at the Democratic National Convention in Boston have asserted that they were alone in the small boat with Kerry, with no other officer present. Schachte said it "was not possible" for Kerry to have gone out alone so soon after joining the swift boat command in late November 1968.

Kerry supporters said no critics of the Democratic presidential nominee ever were aboard a boat with him in combat. Washington lawyer Lanny Davis has contended that Schachte was not aboard the Boston whaler and says the statement that Schachte was aboard in Unfit for Command undermines that critical book's credibility.

Schachte until now has refused to speak out publicly on this question and agreed to give only two interviews. One was a television interview with Lisa Meyers of NBC News, for broadcast Thursday night. The second was a print interview with me, for publication today.

Schachte described the use of the skimmer operating very close to shore as a technique that he personally designed to flush out enemy forces so that the larger swift boats could move in. Around 3 a.m. on Dec. 2, Schachte said, the skimmer -- code-named "Batman" -- fired a hand-held flare. He said that after Kerry's M-16 rifle jammed, the new officer picked up the M-79 and, "I heard a 'thunk.' There was no fire from the enemy," he said.

Patrick Runyon and William Zaladonis are the two enlisted men who said they were aboard the skimmer and did not know Schachte. However, two other former officers interviewed Thursday confirmed that Schachte was the originator of the technique and always was aboard the Boston whaler for these missions.

Grant Hibbard, who as a lieutenant commander was Schachte's superior officer, confirmed that Schachte always went on these skimmer missions and said, "I don't think he [Kerry] was alone" on his first assignment. Hibbard said he had told Kerry to "forget it" when he asked for a Purple Heart.

Ted Peck, another swift boat commander, said, "I remember Bill [schachte] telling me it didn't happen" -- that is, Kerry getting an enemy-inflicted wound. He said it would be "impossible" for Kerry to have been in the skimmer without Schachte.

"I was astonished by Kerry's version" [in his book Tour of Duty] of what happened Dec. 2, Schachte said Thursday. When asked to support the Kerry critics in the swift boat controversy, Schachte said, "I didn't want to get involved." But he said he gradually began to change his mind when he saw his own involvement and credibility challenged, starting with Davis on CNN's "Crossfire" on Aug. 12.

The next time he saw Kerry after the first Purple Heart incident, Schachte said, was "about 20 years" later on the U.S. Senate subway in the basement of the Russell Senate Office Building. "I called, 'Hey, John.' He replied, 'Batman.' I was absolutely amazed by his memory." He said they "talked about having lunch" but never did it.

Schachte said he never has been contacted by or talked to anybody in the Bush-Cheney campaign or any Republican organization. He said he has been a political independent who votes for candidates of both parties.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]ROFL, He did say he lead the way.

I dont´t know why you are rolling around laughing. Looks like you are a funny guy because Gore indeed make way for the internet

Quote[/b] ]But the real question is what, if anything, did Gore actually do to create the modern Internet? According to Vincent Cerf, a senior vice president with MCI Worldcom who's been called the Father of the Internet, "The Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President in his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."

The inventor of the Mosaic Browser, Marc Andreesen, credits Gore with making his work possible. He received a federal grant through Gore's High Performance Computing Act. The University of Pennsylvania's Dave Ferber says that without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."

Joseph E. Traub, a computer science professor at Columbia University, claims that Gore "was perhaps the first political leader to grasp the importance of networking the country.

So according to your sense of humour I´m rolling on the ground because of laughing about you

Inventing the Internet

Quote[/b] ]What has he done in the last 20 years that he could actually put his name on it?

You didn´t seem to be that concerned about Bush´s record prior

and

during his presidency. What has he done ? Ruined some companies betrayed some investors, sniffed coke, been alcoholic, avoiding vietnam.......................................

And it´s so funny that you debate wounds, really funny. You´re a funny guy overall billybob.

[walker 0]

Hi Balschoiw

There are several here is one to be going on with

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/bush/bush.html

Of course this all has a lot to do with George Bush Juniors recent mental instability. George Bush Junior who is a dry drunk has been reported as acting and speaking in paranoid fasion according to white house staffers.

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I dont´t know why you are rolling around laughing. Looks like you are a funny guy because Gore indeed make way for the internet

Laughing at the invented thing... thank you, come again

Quote[/b] ]You didn´t seem to be that concerned about Bush´s record prior

and

during his presidency. What has he done ? Ruined some companies betrayed some investors, sniffed coke, been alcoholic, avoiding vietnam.......................................

I guess you agree that Kerry has not done anything major in the Senate that he could really put his name on it (except the Vietnam thingy with McCain). I'm a Vietnam Vet... elect me...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Laughing at the invented thing... thank you, come again

Whatever...billybob. I´m still laughing

Quote[/b] ]I guess you agree that Kerry has not done anything major in the Senate that he could really put his name on it (except the Vietnam thingy with McCain). I'm a Vietnam Vet... elect me...

So where is Bush´s qualification billybob ?

Name me one thing that makes Bush qualified.

Even with the background of his presidency. Name me one.

Come on, stop bobbling ! Enlight us !

Edit: Thx Walker !

[walker 0]

Hi All

The Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior and his dwindling band of supporters want people to discuss fairy tales not the real issues of the election but these are the issues they are most afraid of.

Rising Poverty

Then dont want us to discuss the rising poverty in America with approximately 35.8 million people living below the poverty line in 2003 that was a rise on of 1.3 million on the prvious year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million. Mean while all of George Bush Juniors NeoConMen cronies are living high on the hog with their ever increasing tax cuts for rich people only. They dont want is discussing his corrupt corporate cronies.

The Economy

They dare not discuss the economy because that is full of monsters like lots of unemployment, a dollar that is worth less and less, debt up to your ears, the maxed out credit card deficit, gas prices at the pump that are higher than ever etc.

Education

With college fees so high and rising that many middle class families cannot send their kids to college, the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior and his cronies in TBA dont want you discussing the fact John F. Kerry has offered a fully refundable College Opportunity Tax credit on up to $4,000 of tuition for every year of college and offer aid to states that keep tuitions down. And he will launch a new effort to ensure that all of our workers can get the technical skills and advanced training they need.

Iraq

They dare not discuss Iraq and National defense because the war is looking very bad and lots people have died and it was all a mistake anyway. There was no WMD. Iraq had nothinhg to do with 9/11 and Al Qaida. They don't want people to discussing that TBA and the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior went out and found lawyers to say it was OK to torture people and rape little boys and that after it was done they got caught.

Health

They dare not discuss health because so many don't have any health insurance any longer; being unemployed or or too low paid and it reminds everyone the economy is going to hell in a hen basket.

Corporate Crime

They dare not discuss crime because that reminds everyone that the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior has a criminal record and is a friend of Kenneth Lay and others in ENRON who gave the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior millions of dollars for his 2000 election campaign and that Dodgy Dick Cheney gave them an energy deal that allowed them to con the people of California out of billions of dollars.

Homeland Defense

They cannot discuss homeland defense because that reminds everyone that on 9/11 when the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior was told "America is Under Attack" he froze in fear and spent 10 minutes having kiddies read him a fairy tale about a goat then he spent 20 minutes taking a photo op.

And in the 34 minutes from first being told "America is Under Attack" to the aircraft hitting the countries chief defense site the Pentagon in the nations capitol Washington the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Junior did not issue a single order for the nations defense. Not One.

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So where is Bush´s qualification billybob ?

Name me one thing that makes Bush qualified.

Even with the background of his presidency. Name me one.

Come on, stop bobbling ! Enlight us !

Bush has done more things in six years (two terms) has governor of Texas than Kerry has done in twenty years in the Senate. If post what I think he done has good during his presidency, I would get blasted. So, no soup for you!!!

[denoir 0]

Bush has done more things in six years (two terms) has governor of Texas than Kerry has done in twenty years in the Senate.

Care to list some of them?