miles teg 1 Posted April 21, 2004 I don't know AL, your quotes sound like he's talking to God to me. What disturbs most is when he says: Quote[/b] ]Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I be as good a messenger of his will as possible. That statement is very similar to statements made by many of the Islamic militants who believe they are doing the will of God. Worse, Bush sees himself as a "Messenger". The word "Messenger" has a VERY POWERFUL meaning in Islam. It means the Prophet Mohammed (and according to the Qu'ran there will be none after Mohammed). Bush calling himself a messenger will have SEVERE reprecussions in the Islamic world. Trust me...that quote WILL NOT go unnoticed. Chris G. aka-Miles Teg<GD> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted April 21, 2004 Norway is pulling out of Iraq as well, two months ahead of schedule. http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,466414,00.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsthatyouJohnWayne 0 Posted April 21, 2004 I cant really see how more and more countries pulling out troops is anything but a negative sign for the people of Iraq and future of stability in the region. I understand and appreciate that many people in the concerned countries dont want to be seen to legitimate an invasion of dubious legality on now obviously wrong intelligence and in the absense of UN legitimacy, yet this looks more like retreat in the face of terrorism. Just what factions like those who bombed the UN will have wanted  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted April 21, 2004 It might also have to do with the fact that Norway is comfortable about being viewed as a liberating force, but do not want to be associated with an occupational one. They were after all occupied by the Nazi's and many of them fought hard for their freedom. Maybe seeing the fierce fighting of rebels in Iraq had a bad taste for some of them. (just speculations) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Hmm, how come I remember Norway not opting to participate in the war at the first place? Sure you are not confusing norway with denmark? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miles teg 1 Posted April 21, 2004 The Dominican Republic is now also pulling out its troops: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....an_iraq Chris G. aka-Miles Teg<GD> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stgn 39 Posted April 21, 2004 Hmm, how come I remember Norway not opting to participate in the war at the first place? Sure you are not confusing norway with denmark? We are not pulling out as fare as I know, cause we are not pussies like Spain and others, Its too bad that when it get rough you just pull out, loosers If you where talking about WW2 then Denmark had only very limited resistance, Norway showed up much harder resistance than Denmark STGN Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted April 21, 2004 Well, it will be interesting to see for how long Fogh Rasmussen will be able to stick by his guns. With Norway pulling out, I think opposition in Denmark will get more gasoline to pour on the fire... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted April 21, 2004 It might also have to do with the fact that Norway is comfortable about being viewed as a liberating force, but do not want to be associated with an occupational one. They were after all occupied by the Nazi's and many of them fought hard for their freedom. Maybe seeing the fierce fighting of rebels in Iraq had a bad taste for some of them.(just speculations) The article is misleading! Norway is not pulling out it's forces ahead of schedule - but according to schedule. The reason is that norwegian troops were meant to build up and help establishing infrastructure - and not take part as a regular fighting force. They will leave in the summer and be redirected to other UN tasks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balschoiw 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Quote[/b] ]We are not pulling out as fare as I know, cause we are not pussies like Spain and others, Its too bad that when it get rough you just pull out, loosers Did it ever come to your mind that the reasons for pullouts are not that they are afraid but that the US&UK connection cheated them ? The whole Iraq case was made up. That´s why they pull out, not because they are afraid. I have more respect for a country that pulls out it´s troops than for a country that keeps on betraying it´s own people and sends them to Iraq. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLF 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Quote[/b] ]We are not pulling out as fare as I know, cause we are not pussies like Spain and others, Its too bad that when it get rough you just pull out, loosers Did it ever come to your mind that the reasons for pullouts are not that they are afraid but that the US&UK connection cheated them ? The whole Iraq case was made up. That´s why they pull out, not because they are afraid. I have more respect for a country that pulls out it´s troops than for a country that keeps on betraying it´s own people and sends them to Iraq. o plz be quite, look at the post above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balschoiw 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Quote[/b] ]o plz be quite, look at the post above. You don´t tell me when to be quiet. I was not talking to you but to STGN. If you nothing to contribute, go away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balschoiw 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Italians ready to pay ransom for release of hostages held in Iraq Quote[/b] ]Italians ready to pay ransom for release of hostages held in Iraq John Hooper in Rome Wednesday April 21, 2004 The Guardian Three Italians held hostage in Iraq were poised for release last night amid growing indications that Silvio Berlusconi's government has been negotiating a controversial ransom deal. Top Italian government officials anticipated "positive news" within hours, while UN envoy Lakhdar Brahimi predicted an imminent release. "We confidently expect something to happen which should become clear in the coming hours," Mr Berlusconi said. His foreign minister, Franco Frattini, said: "We are waiting for positive news." Asked if the way to get the hostages freed was to pay up, the Italian interim governor of Iraq's Dhi Qar province, Barbara Contini, said: "Everyone pays. It has been done for centuries and centuries." Mr Brahimi, who was in Rome yesterday for talks with officials, said: "I think there is every reason to hope for a positive solution quickly." Payment of a ransom would meet with an angry response in London and Washington where it would be seen as encouraging further kidnappings. But the release of the hostages, by whatever means, would take the political heat off Mr Berlusconi who, following the defection of Spain, is the coalition's most important ally in continental Europe. With expectation of a resolution growing by the hour, Italy's defence minister, Antonio Martino, went to the headquarters of the military intelligence service, Sismi, to follow developments. Four Italians were seized last week near Falluja by a previously unknown group calling itself the Green Brigade of Mohammed. On Wednesday, a video was delivered to the Arab-language satellite channel, al-Jazeera, showing one of the men being shot in the head. Sources in Iraq and Italy have said talks for the release of the hostages have been unusually difficult because they work for a US firm and were carrying weapons when they were seized. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Quote[/b] ]o plz be quite, look at the post above. You don´t tell me when to be quiet. I was not talking to you but to STGN. If you nothing to contribute, go away.  I have to moderate my post a little You are partly right Balschiow but the matter at hand is a bit complex. The norwegian government sent norwegian forces as a "middle way" between Germany and France's staunch opposition to the war and our traditionally strong ties with US on the other hand. Unfortunately, our shithead government never asked anyone despite a probable majority in our national assembly (and the people) protesting against it. Pretty much like Spain if you ask me However, the norwegian labour party and the social left want's to leave - and the best signal comes from labour who want's to use the then freed up resources in UN tasks and/or use it on what's left of the palestinian government - a use I strongly agree on. Anyway, they will leave as scheduled wich means that their stay will not be prolonged. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsthatyouJohnWayne 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Just out of interest Balschoiw, are you in fact advocating a full pull out of all coalition troops immediatly (or as soon as possible), or perhaps of all except the US? Because i have to say though there is certainly unrest and violence right now, in my opinion pulling out -all- foreign troops is at least as capable of enabling things to get worse as keeping them there (with foreign occupiers gone the prospect of civil war must surely be raised and there is still the question of Turkish, Iranian and other interference and most importantly the lack of stability for rebuilding). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted April 21, 2004 Pulling out of whatever engagement because the people want it, like in Spains case, isnt cowardly. Its called democracy. But I understand that its a concept hard to grasp for certain people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsthatyouJohnWayne 0 Posted April 21, 2004 I dont wish to cast aspertions on any particular people or country and i am not especially thinking of the recent events in Spain when i say this (its more of a general point) but, in my opinion the masses are perfectly capable of being ,and acting, in a cowardly way. In fact i would say the natural state of a large mass of people tends towards cowardliness, selfishness and stupidity even if individuals can be quite the opposite. It takes unusual effort and persuasion to change people from that state (applies as much to Americans and Peruvians as to Spaniards or Iraqis). Democracy just reflects the flawed people (actually often in a slightly complimentary light due to the distortion inherent in a representative system) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denoir 0 Posted April 21, 2004 I fully understand both sides of this argument. One thing that should be considered however is that apart from the US, no country has a significant amount of troops in Iraq. The damage done by pullouts is political. While it can be debatable in Spain's case (following the terrorist attacks), in principle it is not so bad. It sets a fairly good precedent so that another war like Iraq won't happen tomorrow. The impact on the Iraqi people is minimal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balschoiw 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Quote[/b] ]Just out of interest Balschoiw, are you in fact advocating a full pull out of all coalition troops immediatly (or as soon as possible), or perhaps of all except the US? Did I say that ? No. My point was / is that it is a decision to be made by the troop contributing countries if they pull them out or not. For the US / UK part. Yes I think they have to establish the things they promised. They have the responsibility for this war. They started the war. They knew about the weird intel if not more. They pulled other nations into their warboat by using faked evidence. Any nation that contributed to the coalition and now finds out that they were betrayed and abused has the right to react on this. They have the right to pull out. Not because it´s getting hot, but because they were cheated into this. The US troops have to fix what their boss started. The US can´t steal away this time. They have started the war and they have to guarantee that all the nice things they said before the war will be fulfilled. Noone else is responsible for this than UK and USA. The approach we have seen during the last year can only be seen as a total mess. The Iraqis didn´t ask for that mess. The world and the people of Iraq will not be convinced about the honest purposes of this war unless the coalition at least seriously tries to bring independance, real freedom, real democracy to Iraq. That´s what they are / were told when their father was shot, their house was bombed and their cars were wrecked. The UN is no slave to the US or UK. It were Bush and Blair who took their countries to war, not the UN. The coaltion obviously failed. They were / are not honest to the people of Iraq and the world. Iraqis react. If the US & UK took a serious and convincing approach to the problems of Iraq´s population I bet we wouldn´t have the situation that we have right now. Sure it would get worse if ALL pulled out. But you have to keep in mind that the US and UK politicians, especially their leaders were the ones who made all this mess possible. They caused the mess. So it is their duty to clean up the mess they caused. At least that. Not much when we look at the high stakes Bush and Blair told us about 1 year ago. Freedom, democracy and all that public relations bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gollum1 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Hmm, how come I remember Norway not opting to participate in the war at the first place? Sure you are not confusing norway with denmark? We are not pulling out as fare as I know, cause we are not pussies like Spain and others, Its too bad that when it get rough you just pull out, loosers STGN Who are YOU to call Spaniards pussies, we'll see how much better you, STGN, are than them the moment your country loses 200 people and you go to Iraq with a rifle in hand. Before that, calling Spaniards names and claiming that you're so much better by saying "We" even though it's not you being shot at is cowardly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLF 0 Posted April 21, 2004 so its not in the intrest of the rest of the world to help the iraqi's and help keep it stable, yes the US started this mess but put everyhting behind you and help, don't just sit there and say i told you so from your high perch in the EU. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted April 21, 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3644733.stm Quote[/b] ]UK soldiers who tried to assist casualties were stoned by protesters who blamed the British for failing to provide security. Thats gratitude for you....... Pretty F.U, killed loads of school children...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EiZei 0 Posted April 21, 2004 so its not in the intrest of the rest of the world to help the iraqi's and help keep it stable, yes the US started this mess but put everyhting behind you and help, don't just sit there and say i told you so from your high perch in the EU. Yeah right, clean up this shit just to see US making an another one. No thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pathy 0 Posted April 21, 2004 Until George Bush goes, i would agree with Eizei, stay out of it if you can..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLF 0 Posted April 21, 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3644733.stmQuote[/b] ]UK soldiers who tried to assist casualties were stoned by protesters who blamed the British for failing to provide security. Thats gratitude for you....... Pretty F.U, killed loads of school children...... ME Arab mentality, they will never change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
