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ralphwiggum

The Iraq thread 3

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Sometimes, those reports and images of these arabs stoning our troops who are just trying to help, or cheering and chanting in the street when one gets injured, its just......enougth to make you think "we should just pull out, let these f***s get everything they deserve when thier country erupts into civil war"

Keep in mind that you started dropping bombs on them. You are also the ones that came with a lot of grand promises, but did not deliver. Furthermore you represent a culture that they are not too fond of. It is insane to think that they owe you some gratitude.

You break it, you pay. And think next time before you start dropping bombs next time.

I dont think it has much to do with it to be honest. When the Mosque in Malmo (Sweden) was burning, the firefighters were met by Muslim stone throwers as they tried to put out the flames. Cops had to be called in and the fire fighters had to pull back because of safety reasons...

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I dont think it has much to do with it to be honest. When the Mosque in Malmo (Sweden) was burning, the firefighters were met by Muslim stone throwers as they tried to put out the flames. Cops had to be called in and the fire fighters had to pull back because of safety reasons...

That is your theory? That Muslims like to throw stones at people? rock.gif

Besides, it sounds like a bunch of BS to me. I've tried to find anything about people throwing stones and found nothing. All the major Swedish newspapers have articles about the fire, but there is not a single word about anybody throwing rocks or in any way assaulting the firefighters.

ref #1: Sydsvenskan

ref #2: Expressen

ref #3: Aftonbladet

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And on to the Iraquagmire:

Iraqi forces 'turn on coalition' [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

The new coalition-trained Iraqi police force is being infiltrated by insurgents, US army general has said.

Maj Gen Martin Dempsey said about 10% of new officers were rebels and a further 40% have left their jobs - but the rest "stood tall and stood firm".

....

crazy_o.gif

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now was that expected or what? when US got ahold of the power in Iraq, Bremmer decided to start from scratch, kicking all people with Leutenant or higher ranking from many posts.

in terms of practicality, it was a disaster since most were also the ones who knew how to work things in Iraq, but then again, if Baathists were left to still work on many things, wonder if anti-US crowd would refrain from criticizing US for 'leaving the oppressive Baathist in power.'

of course this would not have happened in the war did not start in the first place. wink_o.gif

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I dont think it has much to do with it to be honest. When the Mosque in Malmo (Sweden) was burning, the firefighters were met by Muslim stone throwers as they tried to put out the flames. Cops had to be called in and the fire fighters had to pull back because of safety reasons...

That is your theory? That Muslims like to throw stones at people?  rock.gif

Besides, it sounds like a bunch of BS to me. I've tried to find anything about people throwing stones and found nothing. All the major Swedish newspapers have articles about the fire, but there is not a single word about anybody throwing rocks or in any way assaulting the firefighters.

ref #1: Sydsvenskan

ref #2: Expressen

ref #3: Aftonbladet

Its not a theory, its an observation. And the funny thing is I remember reading about it in Aftonbladet, especially a comment made by the fire chief, but I cant find any of it now. All I can find are these references...

"MALMÖ. Efter flera regelrätta anfall var brandkĺren försvinnande nära att avbryta släckningen av moskébranden." http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10042584

"Polisens pikéstyrkor fick användas för att skydda brandmännen som arbetade pĺ platsen."

http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10041930

"Mĺnga var irriterade över att brandmännen inte lyckades stoppa branden och stämningen var stundtals mycket kaotisk. Folk försökte ocksĺ ta sig in i bönebyggnaden och flera slagsmĺl utbröt."

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss....00.html

"När Islamic Center brann samlades hundratals arga muslimer. Mĺnga av dem

trodde att branden var anlagd. En del menade ocksĺ att brandkĺren arbetade

alldeles för lĺngsamt med att släcka branden. Brandmännen kände sig hotade

och tvingades kalla pĺ polis för att fĺ skydd. Polisen letar efter spĺr som

skulle kunna visa att branden var anlagd. Ännu har man inte hittat nĺgot."

http://vasterbottensinitiativet.skelleftea.org/documen....mo.html

Now, the really interesting thing is what happened to the articles in for example Aftonbladet that did mention stone throwing...

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Its not a theory, its an observation. And the funny thing is I remember reading about it in Aftonbladet, especially a comment made by the fire chief, but I cant find any of it now. All I can find are these references...

...

Ok, so let's assume that there was rock throwing. Do you think it was a majority or a minority that threw them? Besides throwing rock is nothing that muslims hold a copyright on. A rock is the first throwable thing you can pick up outdoors. Remember these?

kravaller.jpg

slag_etta.jpg

avenyn.jpg

Muslim Mob? Nope, left-wing anti-EU protesters.

And they should be dealt in the same way. You don't throw rocks at the police or at fire-fighters. Those that do should get tear-gassed etc Not much to debate there.

I do not however think that a normal moderate muslim would go and throw rocks at other people. And I very much doubt it has anything to do with Islam, but rather the situation the people are in. Malmö is very segregated. I've seen the effects from the Swedish side - people I know from Malmö who have become semi-racists, very biased against Muslims in particular. I can only assume that this goes both ways and that is why some acted upon that and threw the rocks.

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maybe i should change thread title to "Sweden's muslims rock throwing controversy"

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maybe i should change thread title to "Sweden's muslims rock throwing controversy"

Basra rock throwing-->Do muslims like to throw rocks?--->Swedish rock throwing. Not too difficult to follow. rock.gif

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maybe i should change thread title to "Sweden's muslims rock throwing controversy"

Basra rock throwing-->Do muslims like to throw rocks?--->Swedish rock throwing. Not too difficult to follow.  rock.gif

But Swedes try harder!

swedish%20rock%20group_lg.JPG

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I see a difference between people throwing stones at other people trying to help them, and people throwing stones during a riot.

And no, not all muslims are stone throwers. No, not everyone at the Mosque fire or at the bombing incident in Iraq threw stones. I am simply saying that for some strange reason it might be more common for different cultures to react in absurd ways in very stressful situations. Its not often I have heard of other cultures stoning those trying to help them. In fact, the only time I heard about it in Sweden was when a bunch of drunk students in Lund lit some furniture ablaze in a parking lot and then threw stones at the fire-trucks when they tried to put it out....

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I am simply saying that for some strange reason it might be more common for different cultures to react in absurd ways in very stressful situations.

And I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that the point is the stressful situation. From the articles the people in Malmö were obviously not thrilled with the response of the fire fighters. Plus they thought that the fire was started on purpose, probably by Swedish extremists. So they blamed anything Swedish.

In Basra they weren't happy about the British not providing enough security and combined that they aren't too fond of the occupation in the first place.

There is however a very big difference between Malmö and Basra. Malmö is in Sweden and you expect people to behave according to Swedish laws and customs. Basra however is their home. It is the occupational forces that are the aliens that have to adapt to the local customs.

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To end this little side step. My post was mainly in response to those who couldnt understand the stone throwing bit and seemed to think it was a unique, once in a life time occurance. I was simply pointing out that it isnt, and that it has happened even in socities where there is peace.

It has nothing to do with the logic of letting someone help you, and everything to do with frustration and blind hatred / anger directed at whatever is closest. Which in these occassions happened to be people that actually wanted to help.

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From the very first page of this thread:

Not very interesting. Sounds like a load of unsubstantiated crap to me.

Not that I don't think such an arrangement would be impossible, but the way this is presented and by whom it is presented. Al-Mada is also the news source that blames water and electricity shortages in Baghdad on Israeli agents...

Furthermore, the claims are contradictory. On one hand it claims that the bribes were lobbying for removing the sanctions while at the same time they say that Saddam didn't give a damn about the sanctions. Also, the abundance of Russian companies and officials on the list blasts its credibility. The harsh sanctions against Iraq were Russia's idea and the Russian economy was highly dependant on the oil-for-food program to help compensate for production quotas that Russian companies weren't able to deliver. The very economic survival of companies like Yukos depended on the oil-for-food program, and we're talking about much more than 2 million barrels here.

And third, the very obvious part is the form. You don't bribe people with barrels of oil. There would be difficult to find a more lousy way to bribe somebody. Obviously the payment could not be made in oil (Delivery for mr Galloway! Shall we put the million barrels in the garage or in the hallway?). Therefor it would make an enormous paper-trail as the oil would have to be shipped, sold and the money delivered.

Fourth, there is a lot of documented cases of Saddam trying to bribe UN inspectors. Not with oil, but with the usual stuff - presents for the family, booze and hookers. The normal type of bribes. It's unlikely that he would abandon a difficult to trace method to one that is as subtle as an elephant in a china shop.

Fifth: We suddenly trust in documents produced by Saddam? (Not that those documents have been presented anyway). Ever considered that it might be one of his traditional plans to create discord and mistrust within the camp of his enemies?

Conclusion: You'd have to be a mentally retarded squirrel to take these accusations remotely seriously. (Which is coincidentally what I think most members of the IGC are)

Saddam bribing foreign officials would not be strange, but hardly in this way.

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It's not about the same thing. The corruption inquiry has been on the table for almost four years. What the Iraqi newspaper printed is a load of unsubstantiated crap.

The current inquiry is about the other way around - people bribing the Iraqis to exchange useless stuff for oil. The current investigation is about countries getting their hands on oil in illegal ways, not about Saddam bribing people to lift the sanctions.

Oil-for-food 'made Saddam $10bn' [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]Saddam Hussein's regime made billions of dollars more than previously thought from the United Nations oil-for-food programme, US officials have said.

Established to help ordinary Iraqis during 12 years of sanctions, the programme was the highest-spending project ever undertaken by the UN.

But the US Treasury estimates $10bn of illicit gains were made between 1997 and 2002 from the scheme, up from $6bn.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called for a full investigation. 'Widespread corruption'

There are also allegations that UN staff reaped money from the programme, and that oil money was used to bribe UN employees to back Saddam Hussein, according to reports.

Former Iraqi cabinet officials, legislators, activists and journalists are also accused of benefiting from the oil sales.

The oil-for-food programme allowed Iraq to sell set quotas of oil, the proceeds from which were earmarked to pay for medicine and food.

A UN embargo had prevented Iraq from selling oil after the 1991 Gulf War.

Surcharges

The US General Accounting Office (GAO), the investigatory arm of Congress, says Saddam Hussein earned $5.7bn from oil smuggled out of Iraq and $4.4bn from illegal surcharges he placed on oil.

GAO officials say oil was smuggled through Syria, Jordan and the Persian Gulf and that the government imposed surcharges of up to 50 cents a barrel. It also took commissions of between 5-10% from suppliers.

In order to obtain more Iraqi money stashed away by the old regime, the US Treasury on Thursday submitted the names of 16 Saddam Hussein family members and 191 quasi-governmental firms to the UN.

A UN Security Council resolution requires that member nations freeze accounts which contain Iraqi money and hand over the funds for Iraq's reconstruction.

Saddam Hussein's family was "critical to the financial workings and underpinnings of the regime," treasury official Juan Zarate said.

The GAO says the US has seized $926m of assets of the toppled regime inside in Iraq. Outside the country, about $3.7bn of assets have so far been frozen.

But the officials have said little headway has been made in uncovering Saddam Hussein's presumed secret caches of money.

I guess the caches of money are lying next to the caches of WMD biggrin_o.gif

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It's not about the same thing.

Then what's this?

Senior UN officials stole from oil-for-food program

which ends of with:

Quote[/b] ]In January, Iraq's Al-Mada newspaper published a list of hundreds of individuals alleged to have been involved, including Sevan. The allegations have since intensified under the probing of western journalists.

The list included the names of more than 270 people, political organizations and religious figures from more than 40 countries -- including Britain, Canada, France, Russia, the United States and several Arab countries -- whom it said received free crude oil.

rock.gif

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It's not about the same thing.

Then what's this?

A big re-hash of nothing?  rock.gif A taste for ABC-news sensationalism? Some very vague words?

Read the BBC text. Or why not directly from the UN:

Quote[/b] ]The resolution refers to the Council's "desire to see a full and fair investigation of efforts by the former Government of Iraq, including through bribery, kickbacks, surcharges on oil sales, and illicit payments in regard to purchases of humanitarian goods" with respect to the programme.

The overall general point of the investigation is to see if Saddam made money illegaly through bribery etc It is not about Saddam bribing people to speak well of him.

Hell, read the resolution text. This is about money, not about politics.

Edit: Oh and my "Retarded squirrels" analogy stands.

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It's not about the same thing.

Then what's this?

A big re-hash of nothing?  rock.gif A taste for ABC-news sensationalism? Some very vague words?

Read the BBC text. Or why not directly from the UN:

Quote[/b] ]The resolution refers to the Council's "desire to see a full and fair investigation of efforts by the former Government of Iraq, including through bribery, kickbacks, surcharges on oil sales, and illicit payments in regard to purchases of humanitarian goods" with respect to the programme.

The overall general point of the investigation is to see if Saddam made money illegaly through bribery etc It is not about Saddam bribing people to speak well of him.

Hell, read the resolution text. This is about money, not about politics.

Of course it's about money.

From the very same source, the UN:

Paul Volcker, chair of 'Oil-for-Food' inquiry, pledges full probe

Quote[/b] ]He said the most urgent priority would be to deal with the specific allegations of corruption within the UN, "but there are broader questions about the administration of the programme, and without rising to the level of illegality or criminal action, was there maladministration - let me call it that - which will have lessons for the future?"
Quote[/b] ]

Edit: Oh and my "Retarded squirrels" analogy stands.

bwwebsquirrel2.gif

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Iraqis vent their anger at British troops after suicide bombings

Quote[/b] ]Hundreds of Iraqis took to the streets of Basra, blaming British occupation forces for the deaths of 68 people in southern Iraq (news - web sites), while the US-led coalition said the suicide bombings bore the hallmarks of the Al-Qaeda network.

At the same time Thursday, US marines suspended for the second day running an operation to allow families to return to the powderkeg western city of Fallujah after violence Wednesday claimed dozens of lives and threatened an already uneasy cease-fire.

In Basra, about 800 people took to the streets to vent their anger.

The protesters were backers of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr, whose spokesman in Basra said he had evidence that British troops were involved in the coordinated attacks on police installations in Basra and nearby Zubair.

The spokesman did not elaborate on the claim, but said that since Britain, a key member of the coalition running Iraq, had failed to provide security in the area, its troops should let police and militias handle the situation.

British military spokesman Captain Hisham Hallawi told CNN it was "completely untrue" that British troops had instigated the massacre, blaming Arabic-language electronic media for spreading the reports.

Hallawi expressed concern that such rumours could "take hold".

In Baghdad, a senior coalition official said that while the bombings were still under investigation, the way they were conducted pointed to Osama bin-Laden's extremist network.

"It looks like Al-Qaeda," said the official on condition of anonymity.

"It's got all the hallmarks: it was suicidal, it was spectacular and it was symbolic," he said.

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They're not leaving fast enough!

Gunman Shoots Spaniard in Baghdad Supermarket

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A gunman killed a Spanish civilian in a Baghdad supermarket on Thursday in an attack that underscored the risks facing foreigners in Iraq.

Police sources said a lone assailant in traditional Arab robe and headdress shot the Spaniard in the head and badly wounded his translator in the Sunni Muslim Adhamiya district.

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I don't appreciate it and in case you haven't noticed we have your so called "rag heads" on this forum.  I'd appreciate it if you didn't use those deragatory terms no matter how pissed off you are.  

I said "if you get it" and, you obviously dont.

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I don't appreciate it and in case you haven't noticed we have your so called "rag heads" on this forum.  I'd appreciate it if you didn't use those deragatory terms no matter how pissed off you are.  

I said "if you get it" and, you obviously dont.

I think Miles have every right to say what he said to you! Doesn't matter how emotional you are because of what happened - it's still not a valid excuse!

Do you think it's appropriate to call the israeli apache pilots fucking "jews" in an antisemittic way when they hit the various palestinian police stations that actually was the only way the PA could use/help to control the hardliners of Hamas?

No, didn't think so!

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I was making a point, seems niether of you have the wit.....

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Wit?  Using racist comments = Wit?  

If that passes for wit then we are living in sad times.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

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