The Iraq thread 3

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]How can you call the people fighting against the USA terrorist? They are defending their homeland from a USA led invasion. Big difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Iraq's are fighting for their freedom from the ivasion of iraq.

Sadly some of them ARE terrorists. Some are old supporters of Saddam and some are AQ cells. At any rate, I label both those groups as terrorists because their entire agenda revolves around terror.

I wouldn't go so far as to label them all terrorists. But they could all be labeled as insurgents.

[svendejong 0]

Quote[/b] ]I label both those groups as terrorists because their entire agenda revolves around terror.

Where did you get the idea thet the iraqies fighting with the intention to get the US ( and the brits , dutch etc) out of THEIR country have an agenda that revolves around terror.

These freedomfighters and terrorist just happen to have a common enemy, it doesnt make them all terrorists.

(damn i need to learn to spell right)

[Chill 0]

Quote[/b] ]How can you call the people fighting against the USA terrorist? They are defending their homeland from a USA led invasion. Big difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Iraq's are fighting for their freedom from the ivasion of iraq.

Sadly some of them ARE terrorists. Some are old supporters of Saddam and some are AQ cells. At any rate, I label both those groups as terrorists because their entire agenda revolves around terror.

A cruise missle going thru a house killing a family could be called terror?

A LGB bomb killing 20 inocent people could be called terror?

See the point? Eye for an Eye does not work. In the case of the USA a eye for a whole body seems to be their response.

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

[ran 0]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighters, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

[ran 0]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

Thank you for indicating you sympathy to the Nazi position in WWII.

[ran 0]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

Thank you for indicating you sympathy to the Nazi position in WWII.

I hold no sympathy for the Nazis or the ideals and people you seem to defend in this discussion for that matter.

If you have anything to tell me from now on :

[svendejong 0]

call me an idiot but I really dont see what WW2 has to do with GW2.

[der bastler 0]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

Thank you for indicating you sympathy to the Nazi position in WWII.

He was just explaining the point-of-view-thingy...

He did not judge about WWII. Jesus, how long until Godwin's Law is activated?

[theavonlady 2]

how long until Godwin's Law is activated?

Is that an IkonBoard setting?

[der bastler 0]

how long until Godwin's Law is activated?

Is that an IkonBoard setting?

Dunno. Perhaps they have an internal counter...

[Donnervogel 0]

@ June 29 2004,17:20)]call me an idiot but I really dont see what WW2 has to do with GW2.

Just on a sidenote. There are connections if you're really interested. When you examine the situation in the Britsh and French colonies after WW2 and the Baath movement in the arab world. So if you want to know the connection... read up those topics in a good history book ;) Besides it's would be GW3 now but serious historians will hardly call it "Gulf War" since it's only an Iraq war ;) GW2 was the 1991 war ;)

[whisperFFW06 0]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

Thank you for indicating you sympathy to the Nazi position in WWII.

Avon.... He was just saying the exact opposite ;) Labelling all nmes "terrorist" is a pretty fast way to merge the oppositions into one bucket. Non-terrorists (in other pple eyes) opinion/position can be dissmissed easily by doing so.

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, lets label the US, British and French Underground in WWII terrorists, as innocents were killed.

The Germans labelled Resistance fighter, SOE and OSS agents as terrorists and were considered as such by the German authority, same for the partisans and their political officers on the eastern front.

And the simple answer is who the hell cares what the Nazis thought!

Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

Thank you for indicating you sympathy to the Nazi position in WWII.

Avon.... He was just saying the exact opposite ;) Labelling all nmes "terrorist" is a pretty fast way to merge the oppositions into one bucket. Non-terrorists (in other pple eyes) opinion/position can be dissmissed easily by doing so.

You're missing my point perhaps.

The Nazis were right - from their point of view.

You have to chose sides.

If you think that the people who saw off heads, blow up civilians and destroy Iraq's oil pipelines are not terrorists, you have chosen a side. You are not neutral.

[denoir 0]

If you think that the people who saw off heads, blow up civilians and destroy Iraq's oil pipelines are not terrorists, you have chosen a side. You are not neutral.

There is not one side, there is at least four sides. The people who saw off heads are not the ones that shoot at US troops.

And it's fully consistent - if you don't consider those that attacked German forces in France in WW2 were terrorists, then you shouldn't consider those that do it to another occupational army as terrorists either. And that's the point.

[theavonlady 2]

If you think that the people who saw off heads, blow up civilians and destroy Iraq's oil pipelines are not terrorists, you have chosen a side. You are not neutral.

There is not one side, there is at least four sides. The people who saw off heads are not the ones that shoot at US troops.

And it's fully consistent - if you don't consider those that attacked German forces in France in WW2 were terrorists, then you shouldn't consider those that do it to another occupational army as terrorists either. And that's the point.

And my point was your siding choses how to define your enemy. You've indicated your preferences. You know mine.

[denoir 0]

And my point was your siding choses how to define your enemy. You've indicated your preferences. You know mine.

My point being that preference is relative. I'm arguing that you have to judge by the same standards. Of course being completely free of bias is impossible, but one should at least try.

[Jinef 2]

Hahaha, the people who do the whole 'terrorists are evil and the 11/9 attacks were so horrible and unexpected' thing just make me laugh. Then again I have a sick sense of humour.

No side is right and no side is wrong. There is perfect validity in both side's arguments and concurrent actions. Just feel lucky you are living in countries like yours, it's a lot worse for the other side. Quite honestly you have to give credit for such a marvelous scheme as thought up for the 11/9 attacks, attacking so many different aspects of the US. The only thing that could have gone better for the other guys is if the towers fell sideways, that would have resulted in quite a few more people being killed, but with the people jumping out of windows the pshycological effect evens it up.

Purely statistically the US has killed quite a few more people in retaliation than were killed in 11/9, so you guys should be feeling happy.

[shinRaiden 0]

Speaking of WW2 connections, US-German POW relations were 'ok', as far as POW deals were concerned. In the pacific however, things were different. If you were captured by the Japanese, you were 'obiviously' a wuss who didn't give it his all, or a traitor to your own native country, and regardless of that, were guilty of fighting against the most holy emperor, plus being a white pig (sub-human) to boot. Therefore, the 'humane' thing was to give you the 'justice' you deserved, all the way from Bataan to the slave factories.

Of course, if we start up the moral relativism debate all over again, that will really blow this OT and fan the flames, as has been done repeatedly before.

Along with Avon's point, which I think makes the distinction between 'resistance (liberation)' and 'terrorism', I'm thinking that the main difference is that there are groups of people who have as their primary goal, the death of all persons not of their ethnic origin, and also of their same religious persuasion. They hold it as their duty to ensure the erradication of those targets.

On the other hand, you have people of all sorts that ultimately want some form of life. Whether they plan on a reformed or corrupt rule is secondary to the fact that they ultimately want some sort of nation.

[bn880 5]

If you wish to act more cruel, be like the enemy, more ruthless, and have them to start 'fearing' you, then what really seperates you from the man you had just taken from power?

The desire to live.

really?

Get it out of your heads that guerillas will fear you, they're already strapping bombs to themselves and trying to crash in planes...

I'm talking about our desire to live. The terrorists actually desire death.

No they don't, if they could fight you with tanks and planes without dying they would. It is that htey have to die to be effective in any sort of way that creates the psychology for martyrs.

[miles teg 1]

Speaking of Japanese, a very large percentage of Americans have very similar view to Avon Lady, in that you have to choose sides and that EVERYONE who attacks the US or Israel are all terrorists period.  

The Japanese part comes in in the fact that during WWII there was very much the same type of mentality towards Japanese Americans.  There was this immense fear of "the other" and so Americans (non citizens AND CITIZENS) were rounded up put into prison camps.  Many of them lost their homes, their businesses, their belongings, and their jobs.  

This is very much the way I see America heading with our Muslim population and Muslim American citizens...the difference being that not all Americans will go along with it and that many American Muslims will fight for their constitutional rights and for their religion.   All it takes is one major terrorist attack carried out by a Muslim American for this to take place or just one huge WMD attack by Islamic extremists.  If we don't have any countries to put the blame on (for 9/11 we had Afghanistan and Bush made everyone believe Iraq as well),  then the anger and call for revenge will only turn inward at our own Muslim population almost certainly unless we figure out a way to pin the blame on Syria, Iran, or the Sudan or country like that.  

The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows who all these terrorist groups are and what they believe in.  

I've read alot of stuff by so-called "terrorist experts" and I've not been very impressed as their knowledge of Islamic ideologies is pretty limited and they often fail to take into account the political and economic conditions in areas where terrorists are spawned and differences in ideologies between various groups.  

I would argue that yes the people sawing off heads are some of the people shooting at US troops, but I would also argue that not all groups and individuals in Iraq shooting at US troops would go as far as to behead foreigners or carry out suicide bombings.

To lump them all together is nice and easy to do, but it also causes the extremists to only gain power by lumping the less extreme groups and characterizing them as extremists.  If you call someone a criminal long enough, odds are that they will start behaving like a criminal.  Militant groups also tend to allign themselves with those they see as having real strength.  Al-Zarquoi (or however you spell his name) and his AL-Qaeda group are seen as the most powerful anti-American group in Iraq right now as the best chance for Iraqis to kick out the Americans.   So it is not surprising that Baath party loyalists and other militant groups might align themselves with Al-Qaeda.  Some may even begin to adopt the Al-Qaeda ideology especially if they are Sunni and see Al-Qaeda as a defense against Shi'ite dominance of Iraq.  

Its a VERY complex problem in Iraq and if America continues to just simply the problem as a simple "Good guy vs. Bad guy" war, then we are simply feeding the flames of Al-Qaeda and creating an even more powerful enemy by gradually pushing the Islamic world into the waiting and welcoming arms of Al-Qaeda rather then trying to counter Al-Qaeda ideology with counter-ideology based in Islam.  The whole "Freedom and Democracy" thing rings hollow in the ears of most Middle Easterners as they see America as the worlds biggest hyprocrit....hell most of the world does now.

Counter-propaganda needs to be placed within an Islamic context, something that simply has not been done.  We have the $$$$ and advertising expertise in America to do it.  We simply lack the expertise or the willingness to gather to gather reputable and moderate Islamic scholars from many areas to help fashion such a program.  

But at least in the Bush administration there does not seem to be much interest in battling terrorism in this manner.  

For them that's the "wussy" strategy and its takes too long and doesn't give immediate results.  

Americans are simply too impatient and diplomatic initiatives rarely win votes for politicians.   It didn't do Carter any good.

However Americans always remember wars especially successful wars where America was victorious. Wars get votes.  It fires people up and fires up patriotism.  

...sadly often blind patriotism.

If there is a lesson or relation to WWII, the most important one I think is the lesson of the dangers of blind patriotism.

“Critical thinking is compatible with

patriotism … Amnesia is not a require-ment

for patriotism … We must not con-fuse

dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal

opposition dies, I think the soul of America

dies with it.â€â€”Edward R. Murrow

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[bn880 5]

Purely statistically the US has killed quite a few more people in retaliation than were killed in 11/9, so you guys should be feeling happy.

That's a good point too! Nice going, revenge all the way, working well eh.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Quote[/b] ]Imretty angry right now, I just read were the killed another American Soldier over there. A captive! These people are cowards, and no they are NOT animals, they are worse! If you think American policy is why people target us, then you are as stupid as the crap in my gut.

I see,so you are proposing to destroy all your nuke arsenal,air power,ground power,economy thus becoming like the countries the "terrorist" live in(weak,unable to fight back) and after you will resort to their unconventional attacks(strap a belt to yourself and commit suicide for what you thing it`s the better of your country),right?

Quote[/b] ]Imretty angry right now, I just read were the killed another American Soldier over there. A captive! These people are cowards, and no they are NOT animals, they are worse! I

The same thing goes for the americans who sufocated the Iraqi general and murdered 6 other captives in Abu Gharib,right?

Dude, thats exactly what I am saying...yea.

Quote[/b] ]Duke of Ray was implying that terrorists are inhuman beasts drawn from the deep roots of evil who perform their attacks out of pure black heart and US should start beheading suspected terrorists or something among this lines,I am merly explaining that violence triggers more violence and that you can`t put only one face on your enemy.

Im saying if it takes beheading to stop this then do it, but only to the KNOWN terrorist. The troops over there, American and others, are better than the terrorist, they have real HUMAN qualities to them, so I'm willing to let happen what must happen. Maybe I am wrong, maybe there is a better way, but somebody please tell me.

Quote[/b] ]Considering that portion of 'terrorists' are willing to die for their cause by detonating explosives carried on their person, do you really think the risk of beheading is worrying to them?

I'm sure the 11/9 hijackers would be too scared to fly their 'mission' if the US beheaded terrorists. I'm sure they were worried if they survived the intial impact, explosion, fire, and collapse of the building, they would be dragged out to be executed!

Considering these are the fella's that cause most of the maiming/killing you succeed in becoming a complete bastard, with no real effect. You can't scare these people, they believe in what they are doing too much. You have to attack the cause of the problem. Stop them from having to become terrorists in the first place.

And no, they are not attacking US interests because they 'hate freedom, and are jealous of your way of life'

Christ how many times have I heard that bandied around!?

Killing your self, and being beheaded is two TOTALLY different ways of dieing. It takes a coward dies in many of the ways they do. Also the terrorist do attack us becuase of pure evil and hate, and it does not just come from our involvment in the Middle East.

Quote[/b] ]Duke_of_Ray -

1. Quoting an image is against the forum rules, don't do it please.

2. IIRC it's mainly this thread that contributed to your past perm ban, common sense would see you staying away from the "scene of the crime", I see you slipping back into a pattern that got you perm banned. I can't force you not to contribute to certain threads but I think for some people it's best to avoid certain types of threads, otherwise, don't come crying when the milk is spilt

Hey will not do #1 again, sorry about that. On number two there, well if I do something that deserves getting banned, then I guess I will....uhhhh get my "punishment".

Quote[/b] ]IRA? Iparetarak? ETA? Wake up! US is the LATEST state to have known about terrorism, don't come crying no one understands you! These mornings in the subway were you watch people, thinking "he could be the one who planted the bomb yesterday", do you think only Us citizens know them?

Europe has been the second target of terrorist groups in the 70's, 80's and early 90's, after Israel. I recon Israel situation is 10x, 100x worst than anywhere else, but saying they are the only one able to understand the "danger Americans face", this is BS. They face way way way stronger danger you can even imagine. And European countries have faced terrorism LIKE YOU NOW for decades.

Read what Badgerboys wrote, very good insight of what terrorists are, and why they are so hard to fight. They won't fear being beheaded, in fact they will have won in these cases, in their mind.

They'd probably have more fear of perpetual emprisonment.

Yea, you have had a whole region of the world that hates you. Thats what we have. The WHOLE Middle East,except for Israel, hates us.

Quote[/b] ]If you wish to act more cruel, be like the enemy, more ruthless, and have them to start 'fearing' you, then what really seperates you from the man you had just taken from power?

Lost buddy, we only become the enemy when there is no other option.

Quote[/b] ]How can you call the people fighting against the USA terrorist? They are defending their homeland from a USA led invasion. Big difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Iraq's are fighting for their freedom from the ivasion of iraq.

Are you joking?

Quote[/b] ]Then who the hell cares about what you and the bush fanatics think ?

Sound like you do Ran.

Quote[/b] ]And it's fully consistent - if you don't consider those that attacked German forces in France in WW2 were terrorists, then you shouldn't consider those that do it to another occupational army as terrorists either. And that's the point.

Are you people wanting the terrorist to win?!

Quote[/b] ]Hahaha, the people who do the whole 'terrorists are evil and the 11/9 attacks were so horrible and unexpected' thing just make me laugh. Then again I have a sick sense of humour.

No side is right and no side is wrong. There is perfect validity in both side's arguments and concurrent actions. Just feel lucky you are living in countries like yours, it's a lot worse for the other side. Quite honestly you have to give credit for such a marvelous scheme as thought up for the 11/9 attacks, attacking so many different aspects of the US. The only thing that could have gone better for the other guys is if the towers fell sideways, that would have resulted in quite a few more people being killed, but with the people jumping out of windows the pshycological effect evens it up.

Purely statistically the US has killed quite a few more people in retaliation than were killed in 11/9, so you guys should be feeling happy.

I actually want to puke after reading that. Besides that is the worst 1337 post ever!

Quote[/b] ]This is very much the way I see America heading with our Muslim population and Muslim American citizens...the difference being that not all Americans will go along with it and that many American Muslims will fight for their constitutional rights and for their religion. All it takes is one major terrorist attack carried out by a Muslim American for this to take place or just one huge WMD attack by Islamic extremists. If we don't have any countries to put the blame on (for 9/11 we had Afghanistan and Bush made everyone believe Iraq as well), then the anger and call for revenge will only turn inward at our own Muslim population almost certainly unless we figure out a way to pin the blame on Syria, Iran, or the Sudan or country like that.

The only thing that most Americans would not go along with is their will to resist.