The Iraq thread 3

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Pentagon possesses three disks of photos, one of which includes a photo of soldiers sodomizing prisoners with glow sticks... Many of the photos are redundant, and some have little to do with Iraqi detainees but show sex between U.S. soldiers... Pentagon officials prevailed at least temporarily in their insistence that the administration not immediately release the images, which include the forced masturbation of a detainee...

[theavonlady 2]

You equated a German fictitious excuse for Nazi genocidal attrocities of "committed by a few" with the factual excuse for the Abu Ghraib inciddents.

No Avon the difference is only in your position. Just like there are Nazi aplogists, there are coalition apologists and you are one of them.

You mean the US shouldn't apologize?

You mean I'm searching for excuses?

You mean I approve of what happened?

Quote[/b] ]1. We have the ICRC report wich outlines evidence of widespread and systematic abuse.

Please quantify "widespread" and "systematic".

Quote[/b] ]

2. We have Seymour Hersh who said that more photos are on the way and videos that were taken by a completely different unit than the one in the pictures.

And this "unit" consists of how many myriads of US soldiers?

And as Herch himself quoted Hersh quoted retired Maj. Gen. Charles Hines, former commandant of the Army's military police school:

Quote[/b] ]"I never would have authorized it for interrogating or coercing prisoners. If I had, I'd have been put in jail or kicked out of the Army."

Quote[/b] ]

3. We have the British cases where a number of soldiers have testified under oath that prisoner abuse was very common and that not only did the officers know about it; they ordered it.

What were these cases?

What is "abuse" in these cases?

Quanitfy "common"?

[denoir 0]

You mean I'm searching for excuses?

Bingo.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]1. We have the ICRC report wich outlines evidence of widespread and systematic abuse.

Please quantify "widespread" and "systematic".

I have no idea, but I assume it is more than three guys, one gal and a dog named Brutus. I'm quoting BBC who is quoting the report.

Quote[/b] ]The 24-page document cites abuses - some "tantamount to torture" - including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution."

"These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from persons who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value."'

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2. We have Seymour Hersh who said that more photos are on the way and videos that were taken by a completely different unit than the one in the pictures.

And this "unit" consists of how many myriads of US soldiers?

And as Herch himself quoted Hersh quoted retired Maj. Gen. Charles Hines, former commandant of the Army's military police school:

Quote[/b] ]"I never would have authorized it for interrogating or coercing prisoners. If I had, I'd have been put in jail or kicked out of the Army."

Former military commandant of the Army's military police school? Yeah, he would be really in the loop on what's happening. And surely, just like Bush he could have no motives of defending the US military...

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3. We have the British cases where a number of soldiers have testified under oath that prisoner abuse was very common and that not only did the officers know about it; they ordered it.

What were these cases?

What is "abuse" in these cases?

Mirror

Quote[/b] ]A SOLDIER has produced damning proof that British troopers took "trophy" photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused.

Soldier D photographed a colleague in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment snapping a bound captive with bloodied teeth in the back of an armoured personnel carrier.

The squaddie told the Mirror: "There are no rules out there. I saw the man dragged into the vehicle beaten up, kicked and punched. It lasted about a minute.

"I took the picture as I opened the doors of the vehicle and could see dirt on his shirt and blood on his teeth."

Claiming that soldiers took photos and video footage to look tough and prove to friends what had happened, he added: "You'd come back from Iraq and people wouldn't know what you've been through.

"If you had pictures you could show them. While we were out there we were told to get rid of all of them. But if they'd done a proper search they'd have found CDs and all sorts of things.

"There was one CD going round our room with about 500 shots on it. Some were before and after pictures of beatings."

Three other soldiers have told the Mirror of torture by rogue members of the QLR. One, Soldier C, is giving Military Police full details, including names and ranks.

Soldier D, who is still serving in the QLR but is too frightened to be named or go to Military Police, photographed the battered prisoner while serving in Basra in the second half of last year.

He said: "He was caught red-handed smuggling fuel. I saw beatings like this every day. We'd pull a guy from the back of the wagon with his hands still tied, then up to 12 of us would give him a kicking and leave him on the floor. I saw one guy knocked out.

"People could be brought in for any reason. They'd be taken back to camp and sometimes dragged around by the scruff of the neck. Officers would be trying to interview one prisoner while another was being kicked behind him.

"Sometimes the officer would say 'Don't rough him up too much - I've got to interview him in a minute'." Soldier _ D admitted he had "been no angel" and had taken part in brutality. He put it down to fear of being seen to be a wimp.

He said: "If you tried to step in and said 'Chill out!' you'd be called a 'f*****g pussy' and everyone would hear about it. If anyone said 'Why are you kicking him?' they'd say 'Saddam used to chop their fingers off, this is nothing'." Spilling out his regret at not having the guts to have taken a stand against the violence, he added: "I was shocked and ashamed at what was going on.

"Now I wish I'd said 'no' and taken the consequences. I don't know how you can ever stop this treatment. But it's only right that people in Britain know the truth."

Soldier D, who has not asked for or received money, said he was convinced photos published in the Mirror last week of a hooded Iraqi suspect being beaten and urinated on by a QLR trooper were genuine.

It has been suggested details in the pictures - such as parts of the soldier's uniform, his rifle, hat and boot lacing - were not authentic. But Soldier D said: "I think the pictures are real. I totally believe them.

"Before last summer it was very common to wear floppy hats. As for how boots are laced, you lace them however you want.

"Those who say the boots and uniforms are too clean don't realise there are launderettes there. We kept everything spotless.

"The fact that the soldier in the pictures didn't have a flash on his uniform isn't unusual either. We have to buy our own, so most people have just a couple of shirts with flashes for when the CO comes round.

"The soldier's pouch being open is also easily explained. He'd have taken the sandbag out of it to put over the prisoner's head.

"I know there's no sling on the man's weapon. But slings often get in the way and it's up to you whether you use them or not."

Critics have said the pictures appear to have been taken in a Bedford truck which never deployed in Iraq.

Soldier D hit back: "It's rubbish to say there are no Bedford trucks in Iraq. I travelled in one from the airport and from the camp back to the airport."

The Army said last night: "Any abuse of prisoners is not tolerated. We would again encourage personnel with specific allegations to come forward as soon as possible."

He is the fourth British soldier to come forward and tell the story.

Quote[/b] ]Quanitfy "common"?

Before an investigation is made it is impossible to say.

And that's my point. You are without reservation supporting the idea that it was the work of a few soldiers while there is nothing that would substantiate that position. Right now it is impossible to tell the full extent of it, but there are serious indications that this was more than acts "committed by a few".

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

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1. We have the ICRC report wich outlines evidence of widespread and systematic abuse.

Please quantify "widespread" and "systematic".

Listen to that then--Short WMV if it aint working then Go to http://news.npr.org/ and click on the "red cross" link under "world News"

You can find the original article on the Wallstreetjournal.com of today.

[theavonlady 2]

You mean I'm searching for excuses?

Bingo.

You can pick up your Kewpie Doll prize at the reception desk on your way out.

It's you who is looking for excuses to beat a dead horse.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]1. We have the ICRC report wich outlines evidence of widespread and systematic abuse.

Please quantify "widespread" and "systematic".

I have no idea, but I assume it is more than three guys, one gal and a dog named Brutus. I'm quoting BBC who is quoting the report.

So we have nothing but speculation? That's what I thought. Care to guess some more? 100? 1000? 100000?

Quote[/b] ]The 24-page document cites abuses - some "tantamount to torture"

"Tantamount to torture"? And only some? And none of actual dictionary-definition torture?

Thanks for the update.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

2. We have Seymour Hersh who said that more photos are on the way and videos that were taken by a completely different unit than the one in the pictures.

And this "unit" consists of how many myriads of US soldiers?

And as Herch himself quoted Hersh quoted retired Maj. Gen. Charles Hines, former commandant of the Army's military police school:

Quote[/b] ]"I never would have authorized it for interrogating or coercing prisoners. If I had, I'd have been put in jail or kicked out of the Army."

Former military commandant of the Army's military police school? Yeah, he would be really in the loop on what's happening. And surely, just like Bush he could have no motives of defending the US military...

Please present us with the US military training manual the guided the abusive soldiers to perform what they did?

My point was that the US military does not advocate or approve of what happened and Maj. Gen. Hines quote was simply to state that, as the facts are known so far, this is not widespread, and does not reflect the policy of the US government or military.

But you go right ahead and sick some more dogs on this dead horse.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

3. We have the British cases where a number of soldiers have testified under oath that prisoner abuse was very common and that not only did the officers know about it; they ordered it.

What were these cases?

What is "abuse" in these cases?

Mirror

Quote[/b] ]A SOLDIER has produced damning proof that British troopers took "trophy" photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused.

Soldier D photographed a colleague in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment snapping a bound captive with bloodied teeth in the back of an armoured personnel carrier.

The squaddie told the Mirror: "There are no rules out there. I saw the man dragged into the vehicle beaten up, kicked and punched. It lasted about a minute.

"I took the picture as I opened the doors of the vehicle and could see dirt on his shirt and blood on his teeth."

Claiming that soldiers took photos and video footage to look tough and prove to friends what had happened, he added: "You'd come back from Iraq and people wouldn't know what you've been through.

"If you had pictures you could show them. While we were out there we were told to get rid of all of them. But if they'd done a proper search they'd have found CDs and all sorts of things.

"There was one CD going round our room with about 500 shots on it. Some were before and after pictures of beatings."

Three other soldiers have told the Mirror of torture by rogue members of the QLR. One, Soldier C, is giving Military Police full details, including names and ranks.

Soldier D, who is still serving in the QLR but is too frightened to be named or go to Military Police, photographed the battered prisoner while serving in Basra in the second half of last year.

He said: "He was caught red-handed smuggling fuel. I saw beatings like this every day. We'd pull a guy from the back of the wagon with his hands still tied, then up to 12 of us would give him a kicking and leave him on the floor. I saw one guy knocked out.

"People could be brought in for any reason. They'd be taken back to camp and sometimes dragged around by the scruff of the neck. Officers would be trying to interview one prisoner while another was being kicked behind him.

"Sometimes the officer would say 'Don't rough him up too much - I've got to interview him in a minute'." Soldier _ D admitted he had "been no angel" and had taken part in brutality. He put it down to fear of being seen to be a wimp.

He said: "If you tried to step in and said 'Chill out!' you'd be called a 'f*****g pussy' and everyone would hear about it. If anyone said 'Why are you kicking him?' they'd say 'Saddam used to chop their fingers off, this is nothing'." Spilling out his regret at not having the guts to have taken a stand against the violence, he added: "I was shocked and ashamed at what was going on.

"Now I wish I'd said 'no' and taken the consequences. I don't know how you can ever stop this treatment. But it's only right that people in Britain know the truth."

Soldier D, who has not asked for or received money, said he was convinced photos published in the Mirror last week of a hooded Iraqi suspect being beaten and urinated on by a QLR trooper were genuine.

It has been suggested details in the pictures - such as parts of the soldier's uniform, his rifle, hat and boot lacing - were not authentic. But Soldier D said: "I think the pictures are real. I totally believe them.

"Before last summer it was very common to wear floppy hats. As for how boots are laced, you lace them however you want.

"Those who say the boots and uniforms are too clean don't realise there are launderettes there. We kept everything spotless.

"The fact that the soldier in the pictures didn't have a flash on his uniform isn't unusual either. We have to buy our own, so most people have just a couple of shirts with flashes for when the CO comes round.

"The soldier's pouch being open is also easily explained. He'd have taken the sandbag out of it to put over the prisoner's head.

"I know there's no sling on the man's weapon. But slings often get in the way and it's up to you whether you use them or not."

Critics have said the pictures appear to have been taken in a Bedford truck which never deployed in Iraq.

Soldier D hit back: "It's rubbish to say there are no Bedford trucks in Iraq. I travelled in one from the airport and from the camp back to the airport."

The Army said last night: "Any abuse of prisoners is not tolerated. We would again encourage personnel with specific allegations to come forward as soon as possible."

He is the fourth British soldier to come forward and tell the story.

Once again, this is your idea of wide-spread? Give your dead horse another 40 lashes for good measure.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Quanitfy "common"?

Before an investigation is made it is impossible to say.

Again, speculation.

Quote[/b] ]And that's my point. You are without reservation supporting the idea that it was the work of a few soldiers while there is nothing that would substantiate that position.

So, a couple of 100,000 soldiers and entire givernments are demonized because of a position which you yourself can't substantiate?

Quote[/b] ]Right now it is impossible to tell the full extent of it, but there are serious indications that this was more than acts "committed by a few".

"Indications"? Like the ones above, all unsubstantiated?

And then they complain about me posting the personal opinions of Iraqis on their blogs!

Hersh himself refers to Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba's report, which concludes with nothing more than what we do indeed know for fact:

Quote[/b] ]CONCLUSION

1. (U) Several US Army Soldiers have committed egregious acts and grave breaches of international law at Abu Ghraib/BCCF and Camp Bucca, Iraq. Furthermore, key senior leaders in both the 800th MP Brigade and the 205th MI Brigade failed to comply with established regulations, policies, and command directives in preventing detainee abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and at Camp Bucca during the period August 2003 to February 2004.

About Taguba, Hersh himself ends off with this last paragraph in the New Yorker:

Quote[/b] ]Ryder may have protected himself, but Taguba did not. “He’s not regarded as a hero in some circles in the Pentagon,†a retired Army major general said of Taguba. “He’s the guy who blew the whistle, and the Army will pay the price for his integrity. The leadership does not like to have people make bad news public.â€

Bravo the Taguba (Heh! There's something in that name that makes me suspicious! ) and bravo to the US, who have condemned their own personnel's behavior, who will try the accused accordingly and whose President and Commander In Chief did the maximum possible to offer his apologies on behalf of the entire country.

End of patriotic rant. I just hope Albert isn't wearing his football cleats today.

[Balschoiw 0]

Well ok it´s 3 pages back. Maybe Avon missed it by accident as she always does.

Quote[/b] ]Here is the summary of the 24 pages ICRC report published in parts in the Wall Street Journal , 7th May 2004

Quote

The report was handed to U.S. authorities in February 2004.

The ICRC said it drew the attention of the coalition forces "to a number of serious violations of international humanitarian law. These violations have been documented and sometimes observed while visiting prisoners of war, civilian internees and other protected persons by the Geneva Conventions."

Violations listed in the report in the Journal include:

-- Brutality against protected persons upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury.

-- Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information.

-- Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight.

-- Excessive and disproportionate use of force against persons deprived of their liberty resulting in death or injury during their period of internment.

Some excerpts from the Wall Street Journal report:

"According to allegations collected by ICRC delegates during private interviews with persons deprived of their liberty, ill-treatment during capture was frequent.

"While certain circumstances might require defensive precautions and the use of force...the ICRC collected allegations of ill-treatment following capture which took place in Baghdad, Basrah, Ramadi and Tikrit, indicating a consistent pattern with respect to times and places of brutal behaviour during arrest.

"The repetition of such behaviour...appeared to go beyond the reasonable, legitimate and proportional use of force required to apprehend suspects or restrain persons resisting arrest or capture, and seemed to reflect a usual modus operandi by certain coalition forces' battle groups.

"According to allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an 'intelligence' value.

"In these cases, persons deprived of their liberty under supervision of military intelligence were at high risk of being subjected to a variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators."

The ICRC said it had also "started to document what appeared to be widespread abuse of power and ill-treatment by the Iraqi police, which is under the supervision of the occupying power, including threats to hand over persons in their custody to the CF so as to extort money from them.

"In the case of 'High Value Detainees' held in Baghdad International Airport, the continued internment, several months after their arrest, in strict solitary confinement in cells devoid of sunlight for nearly 23 hours a day constituted a serious violation of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions.

"Since the beginning of the conflict, the ICRC has regularly brought its concerns to the attention of the coalition forces. The observations in the present report are consistent with those made earlier on several occasions orally and in writing to the coalition forces throughout 2003.

"In spite of some improvements in the material conditions of internment, allegations of ill-treatment perpetuated...against persons deprived of their liberty continued to be collected by the ICRC and thus suggested that the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional causes and might be considered as a practice tolerated by the coalition forces."

Methods of ill-treatment during interrogation included: "hooding a detainee with a bag, sometimes in conjunction with beatings thus increasing anxiety as to when blows would come"; handcuffing so tight that they caused skin lesions and nerve damage; beating with pistols and rifles; threats of reprisals against family members; and stripping detainees naked for several days in solitary confinement in a completely dark cell."

This is what AI says:

Iraq: Torture not isolated -- independent investigations vital

Quote

There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq -- with double standards and double speak on human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"The latest evidence of torture and ill-treatment emerging from Abu Ghraib prison will exacerbate an already fragile situation. The prison was notorious under Saddam Hussein -- it should not be allowed to become so again. Iraq has lived under the shadow of torture for far too long. The Coalition leadership must send a clear signal that torture will not be tolerated under any circumstances and that the Iraqi people can now live free of such brutal and degrading practices," Amnesty International said.

"There must be a fully independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture. Nothing less will suffice. If Iraq is to have a sustainable and peaceful future, human rights must be a central component of the way forward. The message must be sent loud and clear that those who abuse human rights will be held accountable.

"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year. Detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and detention. Many have told Amnesty International that they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated by the authorities.

Amnesty International is calling for investigations into alleged abuses by Coalition Forces to be conducted by a body that is competent, impartial and independent, and seen to be so, and that any findings of such investigations be made public. In addition reparation, including compensation, must be paid to the victims or to their families.

And the HRW´s timeline of torture in Iraq:

A Timeline of Torture & Abuse Allegations and Responses

Quote

June 2, 2003

- U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy writes to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice that, "unnamed Administration officials have suggested in several press accounts that detainees held by the United States have been subjected to "stress and duress" interrogation techniques, including beating lengthy sleep and food deprivation." He asks the administration if such techniques are being employed and urges a clear statement that cruel, inhuman degrading treatment of detainees will not be tolerated.

June 24, 2003

- Executive Directors of Human Rights groups write to Condoleezza Rice asking that human rights monitors have access to prisoners and detention facilities under operation by U.S. forces to verify conditions of detention.

June 25, 2003

- William Haynes responds to Senator Leahy stating, "it is the policy of the United States to comply with all its legal obligations in its treatment of detainees." For the first time, Haynes states that it is U.S. policy "to treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur" in a manner consistent with U.S. obligations under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment. He further clarified that the term "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" means any treatment that would be prohibited in the United States by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution ­ a standard that would clearly forbid most of the "stress and duress" techniques reported in the media, as well as degrading treatment later revealed in Iraq. At the same time, Haynes added that "it would not be appropriate to catalogue the interrogation techniques used by U.S. personnelthus we cannot comment on specific cases or practices."

- U.S. Senator Arlen Specter writes to Dr. Rice asking for, "clarification about numerous stories concerning alleged mistreatment of enemy combatants in U.S. custody, " and to explain how the administration ensures that torture does not occur when it sends detainees to countries that are known to practice torture.

June 26, 2003

- In honor of United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, President Bush releases a statement saying that the U.S. is: "committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example" and called on all nations to join the U.S. in "prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent cruel and unusual punishment."

August 28, 2003

- The Associated Press reports, "The U.S. military opened a hearing Wednesday into allegations that four U.S. Army reservists abused Iraqi prisoners of war at a camp in [umm Qasr]...They are alleged to have punched and kicked several Iraqis, breaking one man's nose, while escorting a busload of prisoners to a POW processing centerThe soldiers say they acted in self-defense" (The Associated Press, August 28, 2003)

September 9, 2003

- Senator Leahy responds to William Haynes' letter of June 26, 2003 urging greater clarity in how the standards he outlined are implemented and communicated to U.S. personnel in the field, and asking for assurances that other agencies, including the CIA, respect the same standards as the U.S. military.

October 6, 2003

- AP Wire Service reports, "The U.S. military has shut down Camp Cropper, an increasingly notorious makeshift prison where hundreds of Iraqi detainees were crowded into tents through Baghdad's scorching summer." (AP Wire Services, October 6, 2003

October 19, 2003

- The Associated Press reports, "Eight marine reservists face charges ranging from negligent homicide to making false statements in connection with the mistreatment of prisoners of war in Iraq." (The Associated Press, October 19, 2003)

November 17, 2003

- Executive Directors of leading human rights groups write to William Haynes to express concern about the transfer by the U.S. of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen, to Syria where Mr. Arar alleges he was brutally tortured for 10 months.

November 18, 2003

- Department of Defense (DOD) Principal Deputy General Counsel Daniel Dell'Orto writes to Senator Leahy to confirm that earlier DOD statements about the treatment of detainees bind the entire Executive Branch, but sidesteps specific questions about interrogation guidelines, and adds that articles alleging improper treatment of detainees "often contain allegations that are untrue."

December 13, 2003

- The Washington Post reports, "A battalion commander in Iraq who fired his pistol near the head of an Iraqi detainee after his soldiers had punched the prisoner was fined $5,000 yesterday as part of a nonjudicial disciplinary proceeding that effectively ends his Army career." (The Washington Post, December 13, 2003)

December 17, 2003

- The Associated Press Writer reports, "Marine reservists running a detention facility in Iraq ordered prisoners of war to remain standing for hours until interrogators could question them, according to testimony at a military court hearing" (Associated Press Writer, December 17, 2003)

January 6, 2004

- The Associated Press reports, "The U.S. Army discharged three reservists and ordered them to forfeit two months' salary for abusing prisoners at a detention center in Iraq." (The Associated Press, January 6, 2004)

January 12, 2004

- Human Rights Watch writes to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to express concern about the detention by U.S. forces in Iraq of innocent, close relatives of a wanted person in order to compel the person to surrender, which amounts to hostage-taking, classified as a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.

January 13, 2004

- The Asian Wall Street Journal reports that a suspect detained by U.S. forces in Iraq claims, "he was ordered to stand upright until he collapsed after 13 hours," and interrogators, "burned his arm with a cigarette." (The Asian Wall Street Journal, January 13, 2004)

January 17, 2004

- Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports that, "The commander of U.S. forces in Iraq has ordered a criminal investigation into reports of abuse of prisoners at an unspecified coalition detention center." (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, January 17, 2004)

January 18, 2004

- The Sunday Times reports claims by a detainee held by coalition forces in Iraq that during his three months in detention he was, "beaten frequently, given shocks with an electric cattle prod and had one of his toenails prised[sic] off."

February 10, 2004

- Human Rights Watch writes to Rumsfeld expressing concern about the treatment of detainees in Iraq and urges the administration to publicly clarify the status of the detainees and to make public the numbers of detainees being held.

February 23, 2004

- Reuters News reports that, "U.S. forces investigation allegations of mistreatment of Iraqi detainees at a prison west of Baghdad have suspended 17 soldiers including a battalion commander and a company commander," pending the outcome of an investigation into allegations of abuse of detainees. (Reuters News, February 23, 2004)

March 8, 2004

- Human Rights Watch releases report revealing how U.S. forces operating in Afghanistan have arbitrarily detained civilians, used excessive force during arrests of non-combatants, and mistreated detainees. Released detainees testified that U.S. forces severely beat them, doused them with cold water and subjected them to freezing temperatures. Many said they were forced to stay awake, or to stand or kneel in painful positions for extended periods of time.

May 1, 2004

- The Washington Post reports, "Arab countries reacted with rage and revulsion yesterday after images of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners were broadcast around the world. Bush administration and U.S. military officials scrambled to contain the furor and to assuage concerns among allies. The photos showed U.S. troops celebrating as prisoners were sexually humiliated and otherwise abused." (The Washington Post, May 1, 2004)

May 2, 2004

- The Washington Post reports, "A top Pentagon intelligence officer is leading an investigation into interrogation practices at an Army-run prison where Iraqi detainees were allegedly beaten and sexually abused, officials announced Saturday. The move came amid allegations that military guards abused prisoners at the behest of military intelligence operatives." (Washington Post, May 2, 2004)

May 3, 2004

- Human Rights Watch writes to Condoleezza Rice that the ill treatment and torture of prisoners by the U.S. military in Iraq were not limited to isolated incidents, but reflected, in the words of the U.S. army's own inquiry, "systemic and illegal abuse of detainees." Human Rights Watch urges immediate action to reverse the harm these actions have caused in U.S. detention centers around the world.

Prepared by the staff at Human Rights Watch.

Acts of a few ?

Nobody knew

Have a nice read.

Talking of thin air, how does it feel Avon ?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]  

1. We have the ICRC report wich outlines evidence of widespread and systematic abuse.

Please quantify "widespread" and "systematic".

Listen to that then--Short WMV if it aint working then Go to http://news.npr.org/ and click on the "red cross" link under "world News"

You can find the original article on the Wallstreetjournal.com of today.

I listened to the entire NPR report.

Let me qualify what I mean by "quantify".

How many US personnel were involved in the numerous instance of abuse mentioned in that report.

The report does not say.

The report did mention that the ICRC said that once prisoners were transferred out of these security prisoner cellblocks that "the abuse generally stopped".

[theavonlady 2]

Talking of thin air, how does it feel Avon ?

Heavier than that Amnesty International report.

[Balschoiw 0]

Those are 3 independant reports in case you missed it...

AI, excerpts from the ICRC, and the HRW timeline.

Euro-commies , right ?

[theavonlady 2]

Those are 3 independant reports in case you missed it...

AI, excerpts from the IRCC, and the HRW timeline.

Euro-commies , right ?

Wrong. Cases of possibly confirmed and allegations of abuse.

Once again, give me numbers? How many Coalition personnel (everyone - US, British, military, contractors) took part in systematic abuse?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

No Avon, I am wearing my normal unspectacular shoes!

But I think I still got some good spikes at home!    

I think the term "SOPs" (standard Operating procedure) is reason enough to believe that those deeds werent committed by a few sadists but were a common system to try to break prisoners. In other words CICA (known to use Israel as benchmark since they officialy apply R2I-torture) was very much aware of such punishments and the military only despised them after they became public.

Please consider the difference between "practices" and "procedures"

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Once again, give me numbers? How many Coalition personnel (everyone - US, British, military, contractors) took part in systematic abuse?

You´re so funny...

This reports are not including units, numbers and namelists for a very obviouse reason. They are public.

As all these cases are pending. NOONE except the US or UK administration will give out numbers.

Talking about numbers , Bush has reviewed 24 video tapes yesterday and 2 CD´s full of images.

Let me guess...

More than 6 incidents ?

There are also reports on various locations where torture was practiced , not only at Abu Ghraib, but at Umm Quasar, the Baghdad airport prison and some others. You can check this out on your own.

So it´s not an isolated story , nor are the torturers all the same.

Logic anyone ?

You still follow your old route of denying what can´t be proven. You´re in one line with TBA on this.

If you are that hungry for details, why don´t you just contact the ICRC or AI or HRW for further details ?

[denoir 0]

It's you who is looking for excuses to beat a dead horse.

Wow, Avon, I always knew you were in denial, but this much? Do you think that Bush apologized the other day because it is a "dead horse"? Do you think the US senate yesterday unanimously passed a resolution condemning the the abuse because this is a "dead horse"?

We'll see. What you can expect now is a long series of publishing new abuse pictures and videos. You'll have more and more witnesses and not to mention the testemoines of those actually charged with abuse.

Quote[/b] ]So we have nothing but speculation? That's what I thought. Care to guess some more? 100? 1000? 100000?

We have much more than speculation. We have a red cross report. We have an amnesty report. We have a bunch of more pictures. We have the British story that is unfolding. We have the statements of those now on trial.

What do you have apart from coalition press releases and TBA statements to support your claims?

Quote[/b] ]

"Tantamount to torture"? And only some? And none of actual dictionary-definition torture?

Read Bals. post.

Quote[/b] ]And this "unit" consists of how many myriads of US soldiers?

I don't know and neither do you. Hersh himself however did conclude that "the notion that was promulgated initially last week or the week before by the American authorities... that this is just a bunch of six or seven bad seeds, that's pretty much shot by these photos".

Quote[/b] ]Please present us with the US military training manual the guided the abusive soldiers to perform what they did?

Please present me with the Yugoslav military training manual that guids the soldiers how to commit genocide.

Quote[/b] ]My point was that the US military does not advocate or approve of what happened

Of course, now they don't when it is public. The question is how much they looked the other way when military intelligence wanted to interrogate the prisoners.

Quote[/b] ]Once again, this is your idea of wide-spread? Give your dead horse another 40 lashes for good measure.

500 pictures and soldiers from different units testifying about separate systematic cases of abuse?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Right now it is impossible to tell the full extent of it, but there are serious indications that this was more than acts "committed by a few".

"Indications"? Like the ones above, all unsubstantiated?

No Avon, it is you who have been coming with claims without knowing what the hell you talk about. I have not said anything absolute, just that there were strong indications that there was more going on than just act "committed by a few". You on the other hand have repeatedly insisted that only a few were involved. I could back my statements with independent reports and the testemonies of soldiers who witnessed it. You try to back your statements by quoting what the US army says.

Do you see the difference between your absolute position backed by nothing except your incoherent rants and US Army press releases and my relatively open position with a bias induced by independent reports of what happened?

[denoir 0]

Once again, give me numbers? How many Coalition personnel (everyone - US, British, military, contractors) took part in systematic abuse?

Can you give any numbers? You claim to know that it was the work of a few people. Show me the numbers.

[theavonlady 2]

No Avon, I am wearing my normal unspectacular shoes!

http://schnitzel.sphosting.com/shoes.jpg

Those are very nice! But tuck your shirt in.

Quote[/b] ]I think the term "SOPs" (standard Operating procedure) is reason enough to believe that those deeds werent committed by a few sadists but were a common system to try to break prisoners. In other words CICA (known to use Israel as benchmark since they officialy apply R2I-torture)

In the immemorial words of Maxwell Adams:

"So! The old R2I routine!" :P

Quote[/b] ]was very much aware of such punishments and the military only despised them after they became public.

Once again, no quantifialble number of accused personnel is mentioned. And "common system" is vague and similarly speculative.

Out for the night! Maybe later.

[ran 0]

No Avon, I am wearing my normal unspectacular shoes!

http://schnitzel.sphosting.com/shoes.jpg

Those are very nice! But tuck your shirt in.

No way, that's how it's worn in Europe if you want to be trendy.

But i have to admit that I prefer my black BDU shirt (i just removed the shoulder ... erm thingies ...)

and as shoes, I like wearing french pilot boots if I want something comfy and nice for my feet or just a pair of issue army rangers if I want to look sharp and nice, i usually wear them under my trousers legs (i use to wear something a lot lighter in summer and this year i'm thinking about some Palladium model)

French pilot boots (mines have a different sole)

French army issue boots

Palladium canvas/rubber boots

back ontopic :

Don't you all think that the continuous publication of documents related to the torture in AbuGrahib (sp?) is a bit unhealthy ? Here we've seen an almost non-stop arrival of pictures and we rarely see the same from a day to another in the media.

[Longinius 1]

The sad part is that the release of pictures from this prison are getting more regular than releases of screenshots for a AAA PC Game, and that cant be good...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

of course it is very harmful. Especially in the arab world those images only bring more danger to the soldiers and destabilise the the relationship between occupiers and civillians.

And, many arab sites have published images of tortured prisoners that are actually fakes.

And last but not least Avon is the last man standing (it is a saying of course she is a woman) in this thread to oppose us (not meant in a negative way). Where is the rest gone?

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]And last but not least Avon is the last man standing (it is a saying of course she is a woman) in this thread to oppose us (not meant in a negative way). Where is the rest gone

The rest are in an Iraqi jail being tortured.......

[quicksand 0]

In other news,the part they forgot to tell us about the US patrol in Fallujah

Fallujah Rebels, Residents, Police Celebrate Victory over U.S. Marines

Quote[/b] ]Fallujah, Iraq , May 10 - The US 1st Marine Division sent a small convoy into Fallujah today in order to meet with the mayor and show cooperation with the Iraqi Police (IP) and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC). But the supposed show of force was a pre-arranged exercise. Immediately following the Marines’ departure, the embattled city erupted into what could only be described as a huge victory celebration over the US military.Residents were joined by fully armed resistance fighters who intermingled freely with uniformed IP and ICDC personnel.

At roughly 11:00 this morning, several American Humvees and Stryker vehicles entered the downtown area of Fallujah, accompanied by pick-up trucks full of members of both the IP and ICDC, who traveled in front of, beside, and behind the military convoy. The small convoy slowly made its way inside the heavily blockaded Tribal Council compound.

1st Marine Division press release about the exercise says Marines "traveled into Fallujah today to exercise freedom of movement and meet with city officials."

Members of both the Iraqi Police and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps joined armed mujahideen in celebration, waving their guns in the air and flashing the two-fingered "Victory" sign.

Abdul Rahman, a captain in the ICDC, explained the Marines’ exercise as a negotiated concession. "There were negotiations between the people of Fallujah and the occupation forces," Captain Rahman said. "The plan is for the Americans to pull all of their troops out of the city after they get this one patrol."

After pausing to look at the military vehicles inside the compound, Rahman added, "We want them out of our country."

Nervous residents of the recently besieged city watched quietly from sidewalks as the vehicles sat for about 30 minutes inside the Tribal Council complex, behind concrete barriers some eight feet high. The scores of Iraqi Police and Iraqi Civil Defense Core members who had accompanied that patrol now guarded the building.

the Marines’ press release, 1st Lieutenant Eric Knapp, the Public Affairs Officer for the 1st Marine Division, states, "Cooperation between Coalition and Iraqi Forces in Fallujah is symbolic of the solidarity between all who share a vision of a secure and prosperous Iraq."

But at least some members of those Iraqi forces saw the situation differently.

Just outside the compound walls, Alla Hamdalide, a member of the ICDC forces said his unit was required to protect the Marines. "We brought the Americans from the bridge into the city," he said. "They couldn’t even come in here alone. The victory for Fallujah remains."

Despite the extremely tense and somber atmosphere outside, Major General James Mattis met with the mayor of Fallujah inside the compound where they reportedly discussed plans to rebuild the city.

After only half an hour inside the compound, again with scores of IP and ICDC riding in pick-up trucks and surrounding the Marines’ vehicles, the patrol slowly made its way back out of the city. No gunfire was reported during the event.

Immediately after the patrol left the area, spontaneous celebrations erupted as crowds of residents gathered in the street and began chanting and waving banners. Members of both the Iraqi Police and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps joined in the celebration, waving their guns in the air and flashing the two-fingered "Victory" sign.

An elderly Fallujah resident riding in the back of a truck, waving a traditional Iraqi flag, yelled, "Today is the first day of the war against the Americans! This is a victory for us over the Americans!"

Resistance fighters, called mujahideen ("freedom fighters") by locals, mixed in with the crowd of unarmed civilians, police and Iraqi soldiers. Brandishing rocket propelled grenade launchers (RPGs), Kalashnikov assault rifles and hand grenades, they paraded on trucks as thousands of residents began to move up and down the main street in an impromptu victory parade.

US military officials have admitted that among the Iraqi forces making up the Fallujah Brigade, which they say will be relied upon to maintain security in the city, are an unknown number of guerillas who confronted US Marines just last month at the peak of fighting here. The new brigade is led in part by Ba’athist officers who served in the military under ousted dictator Saddam Hussein.

Ahmed Saadoun Jassin, a uniformed Iraqi Policeman hired and trained by the US occupation authority, didn’t bother containing his joy at seeing the Marines leave. "I can’t describe to you the happiness I feel right now," he said. "This is a victory for Islam."

When asked about cooperating with the Marines, Jassin explained, "This was the deal that was negotiated. They couldn’t stay in Fallujah for over one hour, which they didn’t."

Shop owners threw handfuls of candy at the passing crowds. Many of the people celebrating waved old Iraqi flags, while some held up copies of the Qur’an.

Music blared from mosques as vehicles carrying both armed mujahideen and celebrating residents of Fallujah made their way up and down the main street of the city. Members of the IP, ICDC and several of the resistance fighters were seen firing their guns into the air.

The 1st Marine Division made no mention of the agreed restrictions Iraqi police and soldiers said were placed on the Marines to ensure them safe travel in their press release.

"Fallujans reportedly waved to the Marines as they made their way in and out of the city... Freedom of movement in Fallujah, like that demonstrated by today’s visit, is a crucial component in the process of setting the conditions necessary to rebuild and revitalize the city," wrote Lt. Knapp. "This display of teamwork serves notice to those who violently oppose stability in Iraq; they are nothing more than unwanted barriers on the road to a truly free Iraq."

One resistance fighter riding on the roof of a truck while wielding an RPG stated, "They [the Marines] just made the people of the world laugh at them. But I think they will come back, because they don’t keep their word."

So much for:Fallujah citizens the hostages of foreign fighters,ei Kimmit...

[Akira 0]

In case anyone missed it. Another contractor has been killed.

Beheaded on video.

EDIT:Possibly Nick Berg.

[denoir 0]

Yepp

Video 'shows US man beheaded'

Quote[/b] ]An Islamic militant website has shown a video purporting to show the beheading of an American in Iraq.

The video - the contents of which could not be verified - showed five men in headscarves and ski masks cutting off the man's head with a knife.

Moments earlier, the victim said he was an American from Philadelphia.

The group, thought to be linked to al-Qaeda, said it was carrying out the execution in retaliation for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers.

The poor-quality tape - shown on the Muntada al-Ansar site - began with the victim, bound and wearing an orange jumpsuit, sitting on the floor with five masked men behind him.

The victim identified himself as Nick Berg, a US contractor whose body was found near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.

One of the masked men read out a statement, saying they had offered to exchange the man for inmates of Abu Ghraib prison but the coalition authorities refused.

They then pulled the man to the side and put a knife to his neck.

The man screamed as he was executed.

His killers shouted "Allah is great" before holding what appeared to be a head up to the camera.

[quicksand 0]

Horrible,but what cought my attention is that some news agencys are saying it`s Zarqawi himself killing the American contractor

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Horrible,but what cought my attention is that some news agencys are saying it`s Zarqawi himself killing the American contractor  

How are you implying that   ?

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Horrible,but what cought my attention is that some news agencys are saying it`s Zarqawi himself killing the American contractor  

How are you implying that   ?

The smiley is ment to evoke my surprise,I am not saying it isn`t him as I haven`t seen the video and from the picture I see they are all masked men.It gets all the more stranger as there was widespread news he got his leg amputated.