Xm-8 is a go!

[EiZei 0]

They should switch to 7.62mm and buy a shitload of RK-95s, theres some reliability for ye.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't really understand this whining about weapons not having enough 'stopping power.'  If you can aim, you'll hit them and they wil go down.  If you can't, a bigger round isn't going to help that.

A larger round does have more stopping power and is more likely to knock an opponent down quickly.

[Consigliere 0]

They should switch to 7.62mm and buy a shitload of RK-95s, theres some reliability for ye.

Yeah the AK-74 I mean AK-74...D'oh I mean AK-74...FFS! I mean RK-95 is a pretty good weapon

( )

[m21man 0]

No AK varients, they should go with the G3 .

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't really understand this whining about weapons not having enough 'stopping power.'  If you can aim, you'll hit them and they wil go down.  If you can't, a bigger round isn't going to help that.

A larger round does have more stopping power and is more likely to knock an opponent down quickly.

BS.

Stopping power is a myth.

People go down when they are hurt. If the round goes though a non-vital area, they aren't 'hurt'

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]BS.

Stopping power is a myth.

People go down when they are hurt.  If the round goes though a non-vital area, they aren't 'hurt'

Bullshit. Normal people will go down to even a very small bullet, but someone who's hyped up on drugs/adrenaline/fervor will probably take a lot more force to take down.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

So you are saying that a bullet (meaning projectile fired from a infantry rifle, not an anti materiel rifle) has enough force behind it to knock a person down?

Do the calculations.

Then realise how silly you are.

Larger calibre rounds don't nessesarily do more damage. The fragmentary properties and tumbling are more relevant.

[ralphwiggum 6]

the concept of stopping power is a questionable one at best.

as Baron said, if a bullet can stop someone, then it should also give enough force to the one who is firing to the point where he is incapacitated.

the criteria of stopping your target using a gun would be shot replacement and how many needed. if you manage to shoot central nerve system with any caliber, even a small .22, then the target will die. if you miss someone ir hit non-vital parts, you will still have to worry about hims attacking you.

[drewb99 0]

The shock of having a hot piece of lead fly through you at a few hundred feet per second is what knocks people down, not the actual force of the bullet.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]So you are saying that a bullet (meaning projectile fired from a infantry rifle, not an anti materiel rifle) has enough force behind it to knock a person down?

Do the calculations.

Then realise how silly you are.

Larger calibre rounds don't nessesarily do more damage.

I never said that the bullet itself knocked a person down. It's the effect of the bullet inside the target (Snapping, tumbling, fragmenting, etc...) that stops people. Normally, the bigger the bullet, the more powerful the effects.

[Grizzlie 0]

We have 2 kinds of stopping power:

1. big, slow bullet - like .45 ACP, .44 Magmum and for shothuns - breneke. In this situation, bullet gives it's energy to body - like boxers hit.

2. small caliber, high velocity bullet - it makes high damages by hydrodynamic shocking effect.

Remember of Geneve treaty which strictly describes military ammo - no fragmenting, no hollowpoint, ect.

There r known situations that on adrenaline even with small bullet in heart soldiers were fighting up to 3-5 minutes. For instance .45 ACP was designated after fights with philliphine Moro (not sure name) guerillas, because other pistol bullets were unusable against fanatic soldiers.

And yes, lets do some counting: 5.56 mm bullet can have energy about 1700 J, and if all bullet's enegy would be given to body, it could make 80 kg man moving with speed about 6 m/s.

And as far we r talking about military weapons, there is no time to aim to vital points, u r firing to shape, and u do not have to kill, it is enough to make your target unable to fight for 30-40 seconds, to allow you shot next time.

Of course we r not talking about sniper ammo.

Beeing honest, actual 5.56 mm is good enough for service rifle, and changing it to similiar caliber is useless. Of course if new cartridge would be revolutioany (caseless, ect) or cheaper it could be thinked about changing millions of rifles to new catridge (costs!!!!)

[Merc 0]

Baron and others who doubt "stopping power" of bullets.

Come on over to my place and I'll pop you in the balls with my .22, we'll see if it stops you.    (THATS A JOKE, DON'T FREAK OUT)

As M21man said, the bullet itself may not knock you down. But the sound, the impact, and the feeling of the round entering/exiting is gonna be shitty to say the least.

If you read reports from people who've been shot. Some say they felt nothing at all. But most, even seasoned combat vets, say that they felt a "Red Hot Poker" of pain, certainly enough to get your attention. Others describe it like "Getting hit with a roundhouse punch/ baseball bat."

Summary: If you doubt a bullet will "Stop you", go get shot, then talk to me  

Look what the bullet did to the apple, that sure slowed it down!

Merc

[killagee 0]

I think they should move up to that 6.something ammuntion that has been talked about. Seems like a good comprimise between between 5.56 and 7.62

Anybody got any good info on this round? Might be 6.46mm?

[Major Fubar 0]

Bah! they should have gone with the M41-A Pulse Rifle:

[Frisbee 0]

I think they should move up to that 6.something ammuntion that has been talked about. Seems like a good comprimise between between 5.56 and 7.62

Anybody got any good info on this round? Might be 6.46mm?

The 5.7 FN developed,and that they'd very much like to become the new standard calibre?

At least,i think they put it forward as a new standard.

The M41 shows much better use of green plastic

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Baron and others who doubt "stopping power" of bullets.

Come on over to my place and I'll pop you in the balls with my .22, we'll see if it stops you.    (THATS A JOKE, DON'T FREAK OUT)

As M21man said, the bullet itself may not knock you down. But the sound, the impact, and the feeling of the round entering/exiting is gonna be shitty to say the least.

If you read reports from people who've been shot. Some say they felt nothing at all. But most, even seasoned combat vets, say that they felt a "Red Hot Poker" of pain, certainly enough to get your attention. Others describe it like "Getting hit with a roundhouse punch/ baseball bat."

Summary: If you doubt a bullet will "Stop you", go get shot, then talk to me  

Look what the bullet did to the apple, that sure slowed it down!

Merc

Merc and others who can't read posts:

Don some level IV body armour. I shall then shoot you with a large calibre round while you run towards me.

When the round strikes the trauma plate, almost all of the kinetic energy of the round will be transferred to you. (as opposed to when a round normally goes right through and transfers relatively little energy).

You will NOT be knocked down.

As I said in my post, which you obviously didn't read, the size of the round doesn't matter towards stopping someone nearly as much as terminal ballistic properties of the round (fragmentation, tumbling, etc.) and shot placement, which is the most crucial aspect.

Summary: read others posts before talking BS.

Its a M Y T H.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

And yes, lets do some counting: 5.56 mm bullet can have energy about 1700 J, and if all bullet's enegy would be given to body, it could make 80 kg man moving with speed about 6 m/s.

WRONG.

You forgot to calculate the weight of the projectile.

It won't move him an inch.

[4 IN 1 0]

as i remembered this is something about the Newton's law........

[WhoCares 0]

as i remembered this is something about the Newton's law........

Wrong, it's about momentum, which is mass x velocity.

Edit:

Find a more detailed description here

Please notice this example.

With the equation given there m*U = (m+M)*v , transformed to v = U * m/(m+M) you get (roughly) 0.005% of the bullets (~60grains => ~4grams) speed transfered to a body of 80kg. With a bullet speed of 1000m/s this would be a change of 0.05m/s...

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

'internal energy'?

What is that, exactly?

Of course some kinetic energy is converted into other forms, like heat, sound, etc, but there's no such thing as 'inaccessible' energy.

Its probably just a problem of definitions though. Yes, it is a momentum problem - a small mass like a bullet needs to be going extremely fast in order to transfer enough kinetic energy to move a mass as large as a person. Faster than they do by a large amount.

[WhoCares 0]

'Internal Energy' refers to an isolated system. It just represents the sum of all energies inside this system.

'Inaccessible forms of energy' refers to the measurable energies in this given experiment. There is no way to directly measure the energy used for transformation or going into heat and other energy forms in this experiment. So it is not possible in this experiment to calculate the speed of the bullet based on the 'Conservation of Energy'. But it is possible based on the 'Conservation of Momentum', as descibed in the text.

[Merc 0]

Fuck a duck!  

Baron, you never mentioned body armor before. Look dude, bottom line. IF you think that you can be shot, and NOT affected beyond the wound, your fuckin crazy.

Merc

[4 IN 1 0]

as i remembered this is something about the Newton's law........

Wrong, it's about momentum, which is mass x velocity.

Edit:

Find a more detailed description here

Please notice this example.

With the equation given there m*U = (m+M)*v , transformed to v = U * m/(m+M) you get (roughly) 0.005% of the bullets (~60grains => ~4grams) speed transfered to a body of 80kg. With a bullet speed of 1000m/s this would be a change of 0.05m/s...

ahhhhhh yessss i nearly forgot about that thanks for pointing me that

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Fuck a duck!  

Baron, you never mentioned body armor before. Look dude, bottom line. IF you think that you can be shot, and NOT affected beyond the wound, your fuckin crazy.

Merc

Merc, you never read my posts before and you still haven't. I never said anyone could be shot and not affected by it. Please read things before opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble.

Bottom line: I objected to this BS notion that some people have that bullets 'knock people down.' They dont.

I also objected to the other bullshit notion that larger rounds are inherently more lethal - they aren't. A hollowpoint (or hollow core) round will do a LOT more damage than a FMJ round.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I objected to this BS notion that some people have that bullets 'knock people down.

I never said that. Bullets are too small to do that. But, the effects of the bullet may cause you to jump or do other reflexive responses to pain. Still, the point remains that 7.62mm is a more effective man-stopper than 5.56mm. 5.56 can be very effective at times, but it isn't as reliably effective as 7.62 rounds.