French headscarf ban recommended

[SPQR 0]

Couragous Lady, have you ever been in Europe ?

I confess I've never been in Israël

[theavonlady 2]

Now what's the problem?

Intollerance for other people's requirements.

[theavonlady 2]

Couragous Lady, have you ever been in Europe ?

Several nations, many times, including France.

[ozanzac 0]

Now what's the problem?

Intollerance for other people's requirements.

But there shouldn't be a problem if it is not a requirement. Right?

[theavonlady 2]

I'm not on anyones side. I'm saying that religion should stay out of a state-run school. If theres no religious elements, theres no problems to run into like this.

I agree with you vis-a-vis someone's religion attempting to leave its impression on others in a public institution but when its sole purpose to for the individual to adhere to his or her own religious obligations that do not affect others (unless prejudices abound), then this is a violation of that individual's freedom.

[SPQR 0]

Quote[/b] ]Your country bear all the evils that Europe did to your ancesters.

Sorry I work on 2 things silmumtanously (1 in french, other in english) and ça fait grmmblmlbgmlr...fingers chaos

Effectively It is truly sensless :

"Our countries bear all the evils that Europe did to your ancesters."

Our our, bloody Frog ( to myself)

In my few past posts in this forum, I don't think I had to promote hate and glory in war

Bien au contraire ...

[theavonlady 2]

Now what's the problem?

Intollerance for other people's requirements.

But there shouldn't be a problem if it is not a requirement. Right?

Possibly not. Your point being?

edit: 23:45!

[ozanzac 0]

I'm not on anyones side. I'm saying that religion should stay out of a state-run school. If theres no religious elements, theres no problems to run into like this.

I agree with you vis-a-vis someone's religion attempting to leave its impression on others in a public institution but when its sole purpose to for the individual to adhere to his or her own religious obligations that do not affect others (unless prejudices abound), then this is a violation of that individual's freedom.

It was once not a violation of ones individual freedom to be cained.

In general, it is considered rude to wear a hat inside. Now if a headscarfe has no religous value, as has been claimed, then there would be no problem to ask a student to remove it whilist inside, as with other students who wear hats.

[theavonlady 2]

It was once not a violation of ones individual freedom to be cained.

I don't see the connection to the case being discussed here.

Quote[/b] ]In general, it is considered rude to wear a hat inside. Now if a headscarfe has no religous value, as has been claimed, then there would be no problem to ask a student to remove it whilist inside, as with other students who wear hats.

That's an IF. I am not qualified to reflect on other religion's obligations.

But let's take a practicle example with religious Jews. Many orthodox Jews wear both a hat and a skullcap underneath it. By rule, a Jewish male must wear some form of head covering.

Indeed, when wearing both and asked to remove one's hat, there is no problem. If also asked to remove the Skullcap or if only wearing a hat without having a skullcap (a rare slip, generally caused by running out of the house too fast to catch the bus), then this person would be obligated not to remove their head covering and would usually say so with apologies.

If he were wearing a hat and a kippa and a Bart Simpson bandana, I would call in a social worker.

[denoir 0]

No. These are the Europeans who were great people!

Yeah as were 99% of the Europeans. The Russians took a 30 million casualties hit, 90% of those civilians, and they are also the Europeans that you vilify. And the European Jews that were killed were also Europeans.

Quote[/b] ]You should reconsider yourself the "greatness" of European culture in light of your own family's sufferings at the hands of Europeans.

European culture is alfa and omega in good things and bad things. We are the cradle of the today dominating so called "western" civilization.

You know what the irony is, related to the topic of the thread? Do you know why we insist on separating church and state? Why we insit on the equality of all men and women alike? It's exactly because of our bloody history and the determination of not going there again.

You are absolutely right that it's not embarresing for you that your foundation is in the European culture. It's embarresing for us that you did not learn from us but continued in the old-school imperialistic European way. Anyway, no point in going into a Mid East discussion.

European culture is everything. It's Leonardo da Vinici, it's Einstein, it's Galileo, it's Newton, it's Freud, it's Hitler, it's Stalin, it's Napoleon, it's Kafka, it's democracy, it's electricity, it's the market economy.. And if you are "pissing" on that because it's European then you are no better than the apes that burnt books because they were written by Jews.

[SPQR 0]

It's embarresing for us that you did not learn from us but continued in the old-school imperialistic European way. Anyway, no point in going into a Mid East discussion.

I think it's more a matter of fear, of suffering remembrance, of faith and the urge to come finally back to a true homeland, than continuing old Imperialistic european ways.

In my opinion, I fear that actual US politics close near our old ones

[python3 0]

well, i have news for all of you. It is a requirement of the islamic religion for women to wear hijab. I cannot see how muslims can sit there and say it is not, and in the meanwhile when a women is before God making al salah, she must wear it. When women go to a mosque and are before God they must wear it. When women travel to Al Saudia to make hajj or Omrah, they must wear it. You can argue that it was their before muslims, but the fact is, that it came down in our Quran. For Acecombat, knowing you will probably argue with me about this, ill pm you.

You europeans claim that it is hard for students to interact with one another if one is wearing hijab. So why does it not seem like this in the U.S.? Here in good old NYC, females can wear hijab if the want. Women can even wear a abaya or burka if they want. I see no communication problems even when they decide to cover their faces.

You are all talking of integration, yet for some strange reason, i see this as a segregating factor. You honestly think that any muslim, a god fearing one that is, will leave his religion to fit in with a nations culture. They will segregate from the population, create even more islamic communities, and you will see muslim children only in islamic schools. I dont see this as integration.

Separation of Church and State- Hmmm..... The last time i learned about it, it was that the government has no specific or official religion. Its citizens should be allowed to practice whatever religion it wants without the gov't getting involved. By France adopting such a recommendation, how is that a form of separation of church and state?

Oppression of Women. No, but forcing a woman away from her religion is not oppression. Are you any better than the Taliban who beat women into wearing it. You're gonna send a woman to jail or fine her beliefs. So much for freedom of speech. Ive got news for all of you. Even the burka while all of you view it as oppression is a sign of a womans devotion to God. Why should a muslim woman be any different than a nun in christainity. My mother wore her hijab when she was 30. My sis, here in the U.S. started wearing it this year. My father and i did not force them. It is required in Islam, but it is a womans choice to do so. A man cannot force a woman to do it. It is part of her relationship with God. How many woman are there who worship the islamic religion. How many of you can count on all your fingers the number of women beaten by their husbands or brothers for not weaing it. There will always be a few that do. The majority dont.

Sorry for the super long post. Just my fairly large 2 cents.

[theavonlady 2]

No. These are the Europeans who were great people!

Yeah as were 99% of the Europeans. The Russians took a 30 million casualties hit, 90% of those civilians, and they are also the Europeans that you vilify. And the European Jews that were killed were also Europeans.

How many people was Stalin killing all that time? Now you want me to praise Communist Russia, too?

Jews suffered terrible persecution htroughout all of Soviet history and before that with the Czars. Sorry, I don't have to utter their praises. Nor Europes.

Yes, there were European Jews who Europeans worked hard to exterminate. I don't need the past title, thank you.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You should reconsider yourself the "greatness" of European culture in light of your own family's sufferings at the hands of Europeans.

European culture is alfa and omega in good things and bad things. We are the cradle of the today dominating so called "western" civilization.

You know what the irony is, related to the topic of the thread? Do you know why we insist on separating church and state? Why we insit on the equality of all men and women alike? It's exactly because of our bloody history and the determination of not going there again.

Good to hear you think Europe has learned a lesson.

Quote[/b] ]You are absolutely right that it's not embarresing for you that your foundation is in the European culture. It's embarresing for us that you did not learn from us but continued in the old-school imperialistic European way.

LOL! I knew we'd sleeze off in this direction.

Quote[/b] ]European culture is everything. It's Leonardo da Vinici, it's Einstein, it's Galileo, it's Newton, it's Freud, it's Hitler, it's Stalin, it's Napoleon, it's Kafka, it's democracy, it's electricity, it's the toilet... And if you are "pissing" on that because it's European then you are no better than the apes that burnt books because they were written by Jews.

I'm dissing it because for all of it's past greatness, it brought about some of the worst beasts that humanity has known.

When I say "diss it", I don't go out and burn books. Nor do I revert to claiming the world is flat. But I don't need to wear Europes cultural badge just because my ancestors survived by the skin of their teeth to escape that great cradle of culture.

[SPQR 0]

Please, can you explain me the Tunisian case ?

[theavonlady 2]

Sorry for the super long post. Just my fairly large 2 cents.

It clarified things, thank you.

I agree.

[ralphwiggum 6]

this debate is getting heated and had several flashpoints. please keep civil.

[python3 0]

Please, can you explain me the Tunisian case ?

you really want my opinion about the tunisian, saudi, iranian, and taliban governemtns. Who said they were islamic? Who said they even came close to representing the true virtues of Islam? I suggest you read some books on what the ideal islamic state is. Ill post an article as soon as i can find it.

Tunisia wants to become like turkey. Secular. Fine by me. But banning it is wrong. What more is there for me to say. Take egypt. It is fairly secular, but women are allowed to wear the veil, in fact there is a revival of all that stuff going on.

What do i care for the tunisian governement. hehe, they will have their day of judgement as everyone else. It is their eternity, not mines.

One more point. While all of you sit there and speak of terrorism, have you ever considered how this will play into their hands? hmm....... well gee thats a no brainer!

[python3 0]

Sorry for the super long post. Just my fairly large 2 cents.

It clarified things, thank you.

I agree.

sure thing. Anytime :;):

[denoir 0]

When I say "diss it", I don't go out and burn books. Nor do I revert to claiming the world is flat. But I don't need to wear Europes cultural badge just because my ancestors survived by the skin of their teeth to escape that great cradle of culture.

You still don't get it. Your ancestors were European, no less than I am. And you're a second generation European emmigrant, like it or not.

So when you say that you are "pissing" (which was the expression you used) on European culture, you are really pissing on your own culture.

Which is btw extremely inappropriate to say the least. If I said that I was "pissing on Jewish culture" you would call me a fucking Nazi. And I don't see how exchanging "Jewish" for "European" would make it better.

[SPQR 0]

Thanks python3 for your point of view

[theavonlady 2]

When I say "diss it", I don't go out and burn books. Nor do I revert to claiming the world is flat. But I don't need to wear Europes cultural badge just because my ancestors survived by the skin of their teeth to escape that great cradle of culture.

You still don't get it. Your ancestors were European, no less than I am. And you're a second generation European emmigrant, like it or not.

Then you don't get it.

Goodnight. Too crosseyed to continue.

[ozanzac 0]

It was once not a violation of ones individual freedom to be cained.

I don't see the connection to the case being discussed here.

To be cained: smacked on th ass with a stick repeatedly, now a violation of your freedom. Once was a tool for discipline in Australian schools. Now banned!

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]In general, it is considered rude to wear a hat inside. Now if a headscarfe has no religous value, as has been claimed, then there would be no problem to ask a student to remove it whilist inside, as with other students who wear hats.

That's an IF. I am not qualified to reflect on other religion's obligations.

But let's take a practicle example with religious Jews. Many orthodox Jews wear both a hat and a skullcap underneath it. By rule, a Jewish male must wear some form of head covering.

Indeed, when wearing both and asked to remove one's hat, there is no problem. If also asked to remove the Skullcap or if only wearing a hat without having a skullcap (a rare slip, generally caused by running out of the house too fast to catch the bus), then this person would be obligated not to remove their head covering and would usually say so with apologies.

If he were wearing a hat and a kippa and a Bart Simpson bandana, I would call in a social worker.

Mayby your missing my point. In a state-school, religion should not be a factor, right?. Everyone should be equal, correct? I don't know if this is a clash of cultures, but in a sunny (as in sunshine) climate like Australia (It gets off topic from here), some state schools, especially primary or as americans say, elementary schools force kids to wear hats as part of the uniform when outside. This is to prevent sunburn and to prevent the school system from being liable to paying for damages when a child is sunburnt. And with the ozone layer so thin down here near the pole, getting sunburnt, and with that skin cancers, is almost expected if a kid goes to play outside without protection. It was a long and daining process to implement.

(Gets back on topic here)

The wearing of headgear outside is the rule if the child expects to be allowed to play outside whilist at school, on the inside it is the rule that the child takes off the headgear on the inside.

Now, I'm under the influence that from what Acecombat said, that the head dress that muslim women wear is not a religous requirement, therefore, why would it be offensive for a teacher to ask the child to remove the head dress, so whats the furore all about.

As for the skullcap, the rule that a male must always wear something covering the head is a jewish rule. A religous rule. In a school, it's the school rule that applies, and if the school states that no headgear is to be worn inside, then so be it. This is where the line is blurred, as this is where religion is impeding within state-schools. Hence our problem, should religion be accomodated within state-run schools? I say no because then everyone is treated equal. As society should be.

[KJAM 0]

Quote[/b] ]To be cained: smacked on th ass with a stick repeatedly, now a violation of your freedom. Once was a tool for discipline in Australian schools. Now banned!

lol may i remind you that australia was (once)used as a penal colony LOL,

J/k (even tho its true, i dont mean any offence by it, and hope u dont take any)

but in general i agree withh you ozanzac

[denoir 0]

You europeans claim that it is hard for students to interact with one another if one is wearing hijab. So why does it not seem like this in the U.S.? Here in good old NYC, females can wear hijab if the want. Women can even wear a abaya or burka if they want. I see no communication problems even when they decide to cover their faces.

Well, I know about the burka discussion here in Sweden. It was not the politicians, but the teachers that wanted a ban as they said that it was a problem. First of all you have the basic requirement of identification, which cannot be done if the student is wearing a burka. Anybody could be under there. Second, communications with the teacher requires a certain degree of eye-contact. The teacher needs to see if the student is understanding something, and a burka become an obstacle.

And last it was the direct communications part that is not related to the clothing: female students refused to communicate with male teachers.

Quote[/b] ]You are all talking of integration, yet for some strange reason, i see this as a segregating factor. You honestly think that any muslim, a god fearing one that is, will leave his religion to fit in with a nations culture. They will segregate from the population, create even more islamic communities, and you will see muslim children only in islamic schools. I dont see this as integration.

This is a good point but the assumption that they are working under is that people want to integrate. And we can't simply accept the foreceful separation of the sexes, even if the women in question wants it. We look at it the same way as racial segregation. Those are simply the values of our society. And it's our society so those that choose to live here have to respect it. Otherwise they should look for another country where their specific religious needs can be met. We have a system based on equality, not on special cases.

Quote[/b] ]Separation of Church and State- Hmmm..... The last time i learned about it, it was that the government has no specific or official religion. Its citizens should be allowed to practice whatever religion it wants without the gov't getting involved. By France adopting such a recommendation, how is that a form of separation of church and state?

No, separation of church and state is the notion that the government does not dictate for the church what to do and the chruch does not dictate to the government what to do. The recommendation has nothing to do with the religions. They didn't issue a directive to all mosques, churches and synagogues that from now on specific clothing and insignia won't be part of the religion.

Quote[/b] ]

Oppression of Women. No, but forcing a woman away from her religion is not oppression. Are you any better than the Taliban who beat women into wearing it. You're gonna send a woman to jail or fine her beliefs. So much for freedom of speech. Ive got news for all of you. Even the burka while all of you view it as oppression is a sign of a womans devotion to God.

The big point again is that they are guests here so they have to adapt to our culture rather than vice-versa. Now our system allows you to do whatever you wish in terms of religion if it does not interfere with the rules and regulations of the secular system. The secular system is the foundation. It's not one or the other. Religion is a bonus you get on the side, but that's not the primary system.

Quote[/b] ]Why should a muslim woman be any different than a nun in christainity.

She isn't. Accoding to the new regulations nun's arn't allowed to wear thier robes either should they go to public school. This is for all religions, not just islam.

Quote[/b] ]

A man cannot force a woman to do it.

The taliban would beg to differ. AFIK you don't have freedom of religion most Islamic countries, right? And you said that it was a requirement of islamic faith to wear hijab. So it's not really up to the women, is it?

[sanctuary 19]

For people dissing european culture and people praising european culture , you are aware that this culture doesnt exist ?

Some of the countries that are part of the european continent have indeed some small parts of history together (usually involving a war) .

But , look inside : in a country itself , you can find a lot of different cultures , the word european culture is just wrong.

In France by example you can find Corses, Basques , Bretons , Occitans , etc...etc... , those people have their own culture and history (and langage) before and after the unification of the country.

And i suppose in every european country it is the same, so how can someone be able to define european culture ?

There is so much different ones in this continent that it is not possible.

When you talk aboiut european culture actually , you try to find only the common points between european nations.

But what do you do of the differences , you drop them ?

No , there is no european culture as a whole, but there are european cultures and that plural in this word is what make the enormous difference.

Now the fact about judging a culture or a religion because some people make horrible acts is plainly stupid and ridiculous.

Acting like that is taking the xenophobia way.

Then i stop there , as my english langage ability is not good enough to go deeper in the debate.