French headscarf ban recommended

[KJAM 0]

myself i dont particularly care about religions because my beliefs are really a mish mash, i do however feel that people who believe in whatever religion should show it in whatever way they want...up to an acceptable limit of course.

now forgive me for stereotyping but take, a satanist for instance, now an acceptable thing would be for them to wear however many inverted pentagrams (because the pentagram the right way up is actually a sign of protection and a symbol of jesus) or clothing they wish, and unnacceptable one would be (and this is where the stereotyping comes into play) a tshirt with an inverted pentagram painted on it in blood (see really sterotypical which im sorry for). and just to make up for that sterotyping im gonna let you in on a secret.

MOST Satanists arent evil, and to them 'satan' isnt a symbol of evil to them, nor is that why they are satanists, to them (and to give him his real name) Lucifer is a symbol of rebellion against oppresion. Now that that is sorted out lets continue.

like i said, i dont mind anyone who believes in ANY religion, nor do i find what they wear distracting, intimadating etc as long as they dont try to force their religion onto me (ive had this done moreso with christianity than anything else, then again i live in europe lol).

so all in all, let people wear what they want to wear to denote their religional beliefs (it could also be useful socially so that you dont walk up to someone and do/say something that is offensive to them in their religion) as long as they dont force it on others or go over the top.!

[Scorpio 0]

Denoir - I respect your opinion and agree with you in terms of the social difficulties female students may encounter.

However, I believe only the clothing that covers the whole body and/or the whole body except the eyes, as the normal hijab that covers the body except hands and face has no problems with social situations.

[denoir 0]

Doesn't (or shouldn't) that mean that one person's beliefs are not to be assumed to be superior to another's, whether secular versus religious or religious versus secular?

Obviously not! The secular includes all while religion is individual. And it's not about beliefs. They are separated. Even if you are religious you get the secular part, want it or not. And I think that's pretty obvious and I think that it's the same way, even in your highly spiritual holy country. Kill a man and tell the police that God told you to do so. Will they put you in jail, or will they say that they won't judge your spiritual beliefs?

Quote[/b] ]

Well, then, what are you waiting for? Abolish tollerance of Religion altogether. Banish the Christians from the soil of the EU! The Moslems and Jews, too! Confiscate their evil houses of worship. Imprison anyone caught with rosaries in the privacy of their homes.

But that's the nice part. I believe that. Tamme does not believe that and both our views are accepted. I don't burn crosses in public areas and he doesn't walk around in a nun's costume in school. Our common part is the secular. The rest is private and I won't be forcing him to give up his faith and he won't be forcing me to follow his. Freedom of religion and separation of church and state. Who knows, maby in a couple of hundred of years, you'll evolve to it too. Unless you and your highly spiritual neighbours don't kill each other before over religious intollerance

Quote[/b] ]

Democratic Europe. I love oxymorons.

Coming from a right-wing Israeli Sharon-follower, I can only take the sarcasm as a compliment

[denoir 0]

Denoir - I respect your opinion and agree with you in terms of the social difficulties female students may encounter.

However, I believe only the clothing that covers the whole body and/or the whole body except the eyes, as the normal hijab that covers the body except hands and face has no problems with social situations.

I agree with you, but the problem is that you can't just ban one type of dresses (for instance burkas), because it would be religious discrimination. You have to ban all of it, including crosses and skullcaps to make it constitutional.

As I said earlier a lot of the reasons for this ban are practical - an attempt to reduce the segregation. And as I also said, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of the ban myself. I think it's a fairly thin line one must walk, not to infringe on the individual liberties both in terms of freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

This however more of a practical decision than an idological one. And in the end, religion is a private matter. And as schools have rights to decide that their students can't smoke on school grounds, they can also decide that they arn't allowed to wear certain clothing. We're talkinga about school regulations here, not a constitutional amendment banning hijab.

[theavonlady 2]

Someone wrote:

Quote[/b] ] A question, would i be allowed to go to a isreali high school with a t-shirt saying "I support hamas"?

Probably would, aslong as you didn't go around blowing yourself up and or causing other forms of havoc. And the probability of you being stopped by Israeli military or police would probably increase a fair share.

If I get off the plane in Stockholm with a T-shirt proclaiming that Swedes should have their throats slashed and be disembowled, will I be welcomed, imprisoned or put back on the next plane out?

If I will not be welcomed, then Sweden is no different than Israel in this matter and I would hope that would be so.

Quote[/b] ]And Israel is atleast in my eyes not the best example of a well functioning and a reasonable democracy for many reasons wich is beyond the comprehension of outsiders.

You may have our problems sooner than you think. Good luck to you!

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Besides in western european culture the wearing of headscarfes and hats and stuff in doors is viewed as very rude.

These are ancient European tribal rituals! Get with it, you old geezer.

Well, tribal rituals would be exxagerating a fair bit I think.

Indeed but that is the tone being set here against other people's religious garb. I was being sarcastic.

[frk19732001 0]

well the thing now is that ppl are mixing religion and politics

wich is a bad thing crusades and jihad or whatever that is are the pure example of that it's a mixing of the two gone very bad islam is one of the most tolerent religion known to me and because of a minority we get to generalize that it's a macho driven and bloody religion.

Because of some contries politics we can see women with headscarfs and covered beyond anyone's imagination.

but i was always told in rome act like romans. no religious symbols are allowed in public schools so be it.

But let's remember that france is supposed to be a democracy

so what to think i don't know.

[theavonlady 2]

Coming from a right-wing Israeli

This is correct.

Quote[/b] ]Sharon-follower

This is incorrect.

Quote[/b] ]I can only take the sarcasm as a compliment

It's all yours.

[theavonlady 2]

I agree with you, but the problem is that you can't just ban one type of dresses (for instance burkas), because it would be religious discrimination. You have to ban all of it, including crosses and skullcaps to make it constitutional.

It could be argued that a Burka would be a different problem because of norms of communication and addressing one person face to face.

Frankly, if that particular case cannot be mutually resolved, then don't ban any of them.

[GoOB 0]

Someone wrote:

Quote[/b] ] A question, would i be allowed to go to a isreali high school with a t-shirt saying "I support hamas"?

Probably would, aslong as you didn't go around blowing yourself up and or causing other forms of havoc. And the probability of you being stopped by Israeli military or police would probably increase a fair share.

If I get off the plane in Stockholm with a T-shirt proclaiming that Swedes should have their throats slashed and be disembowled, will I be welcomed, imprisoned or put back on the next plane out?

If I will not be welcomed, then Sweden is no different than Israel in this matter and I would hope that would be so.

Quote[/b] ]And Israel is atleast in my eyes not the best example of a well functioning and a reasonable democracy for many reasons wich is beyond the comprehension of outsiders.

You may have our problems sooner than you think. Good luck to you!

Well, that would be "Hets mot folkgrupp" that and supporting a political cause or group no matter how bloody a history it has, it is not the same thing. And you would probably only be asked to change your T-shirt or adviced to do so. I have seen police officers walking right past people with swastikas on their T-shirts.

And I doubt that Sweden will go about reclaiming Norway as our own territory and opressing the Norwegians in an all out bulldozing manouver. As stated I cannot relate to the problems wich Israel obviously has with terrorism as Sweden has never in my lifetime been trying to occupy another country and throwing the original population out.

EDIT: "Hets mot folkgrupp" I don't know how to translate this properly. But it should translate to something like "Attempting to aggrivate a scociety group" or something along those lines.

[SPQR 0]

Ah, Avonlady..

How difficult it is for me to explain in english my point of view ! With an obvious lack of vocabulary and no time to put constantly my eyes in the dictionnary

Maybe could we understand better if you know the israelo-french journalist Charles Enderlin who witnessed, for example peace negiocations between the Palestinians and Ehoud Barak. Thanks to him, we have a pretty clear view of the huge amount of suffering endured by israelian (all religions) and palestinian civilians. Constantly seing the craddle of the three monotheist religions under siege, in a war that hardly tell its name. Most frenchs understand that peace must be won alltogether by the 2 opponents, not only one making efforts.

Have you the luck to have reports from a franco-israelian (order doesn't really matter ) journalist explaining France ? I'd like to.

It is not a surrender to your arguments!

And I won't feel assaulted because of misunderstanding of each other.

I'm just noticing that my vocabulary and my english mastering doesn't help me to express my ideas

[denoir 0]

I agree with you, but the problem is that you can't just ban one type of dresses (for instance burkas), because it would be religious discrimination. You have to ban all of it, including crosses and skullcaps to make it constitutional.

It could be argued that a Burka would be a different problem because of norms of communication and addressing one person face to face.

Yeah, and where do you put the limit? Where does it according to you the religious end and the secular take over?

Wouldn't banning Burkas be specific discrimination against the Afgan muslims who use it? So now we are judging which religious customs are better than others, right? Does that sound reasonable?

No, the fair conclusion is that religious clothing can cause problems and we remove them all. It's within the legal powers of the schools to set up such regulation for students, so it's not a violation of any constitutional rights. They are not being denied having a religion.

Quote[/b] ]Frankly, if that particular case cannot be mutually resolved, then don't ban any of them.

Ah yes, maintaining the crappy status-quo. Well, I suppose that we could have stayed living in caves too, but at least I personally think that actually solving some problems is worth some effort.

[theavonlady 2]

Someone wrote:

Quote[/b] ] A question, would i be allowed to go to a isreali high school with a t-shirt saying "I support hamas"?

Probably would, aslong as you didn't go around blowing yourself up and or causing other forms of havoc. And the probability of you being stopped by Israeli military or police would probably increase a fair share.

If I get off the plane in Stockholm with a T-shirt proclaiming that Swedes should have their throats slashed and be disembowled, will I be welcomed, imprisoned or put back on the next plane out?

If I will not be welcomed, then Sweden is no different than Israel in this matter and I would hope that would be so.

Quote[/b] ]And Israel is atleast in my eyes not the best example of a well functioning and a reasonable democracy for many reasons wich is beyond the comprehension of outsiders.

You may have our problems sooner than you think. Good luck to you!

Well, that would be "Hets mot folkgrupp" that and supporting a political cause or group no matter how bloody a history it has, it is not the same thing. And you would probably only be asked to change your T-shirt or adviced to do so. I have seen police officers walking right past people with swastikas on their T-shirts.

Whadyaknow. So Sweden isn't perfect.

Would you find it intollerable, had Swedish law established that promoting Nazi symbols is forbidden because

of their explicte racial connotation or incitement to racism? Or would you at least understand and comprehend if another country had such laws?

Quote[/b] ]And I doubt that Sweden will go about reclaiming Norway as our own territory and opressing the Norwegians in an all out bulldozing manouver.

My! My! Changing the subject.

Quote[/b] ]As stated I cannot relate to the problems wich Israel obviously has with terrorism as Sweden has never in my lifetime been trying to occupy another country and throwing the original population out.

More Swedish tripe. Has Norway threatened to annihilate Sweden in the last few decades? Go ahead and spew your vicious venom on the MidEast thread!

[denoir 0]

Well, that would be "Hets mot folkgrupp" that and supporting a political cause or group no matter how bloody a history it has, it is not the same thing. And you would probably only be asked to change your T-shirt or adviced to do so. I have seen police officers walking right past people with swastikas on their T-shirts.

Actually "hets mot folkgrupp" only applys if you broadcast it on the radio/TV or print it in a paper, explicitly calling people to start killing Swedes. Having it on a T-shirt would not at all qualify.

Nothing would happen, nothing at all. You'd be treated the same way as if you had a "I love Sweden" T-Shirt (they would lose half your luggage and stomp on the rest of it).

We have one of the most extensive freedom of speech laws in the world. For better or worse you can say,write,wear etc for the most part whatever you wish without any consequences.

It's only the really really nasty stuff that gets a slap on the wrists.

Quote[/b] ]

Has Norway threatened to annihilate Sweden in the last few decades?

Repeatedly - it gives us a good laugh every time

[EiZei 0]

Maybe the norweigians have not threatened to annihilate the swedes because they were treated differently?

But back on-topic..

[theavonlady 2]

I agree with you, but the problem is that you can't just ban one type of dresses (for instance burkas), because it would be religious discrimination. You have to ban all of it, including crosses and skullcaps to make it constitutional.

It could be argued that a Burka would be a different problem because of norms of communication and addressing one person face to face.

Yeah, and where do you put the limit? Where does it according to you the religious end and the secular take over?

We are on different wave lengths here. What difference does it make what religious outfit someone wears unless it explicitly belittles other people?

This has nothing to do with religion taking over, just as secularism shouldn't take over. Anything public should be equally accessable to all people of all beliefs.

Quote[/b] ]

Wouldn't banning Burkas be specific discrimination against the Afgan muslims who use it? So now we are judging which religious customs are better than others, right? Does that sound reasonable?

No, the fair conclusion is that religious clothing can cause problems and we remove them all. It's within the legal powers of the schools to set up such regulation for students, so it's not a violation of any constitutional rights. They are not being denied having a religion.

Quote[/b] ]

Frankly, if that particular case cannot be mutually resolved, then don't ban any of them.

Ah yes, maintaining the crappy status-quo.

Why is it crappy? Because of your intollerence?

Quote[/b] ]Well, I suppose that we could have stayed living in caves too, but at least I personally think that actually solving some problems is worth some effort.

Ah, I see. People wearing Burkas who go to the same public school and receive the same education as people wearing jeans and tanktops are more primitive.

Good Ol' European thinking.

[theavonlady 2]

Maybe the norweigians have not threatened to annihilate the swedes because they were treated differently?

But back on-topic..

Really? And how were the Israeli Jews treated in the 1920's 30's, 1948 and 1967?

But back on-topic..

[SPQR 0]

I'm leaving your mess !

Seems that beast are still groaning in human hearts !

Very Instructive indeed

[theavonlady 2]

I'm leaving your mess !

Seems that beast are still groaning in human hearts !

Very Instructive indeed  

You'll always be incomprehendable in my heart!

Sorry but I don't know what mess and beasts you're alluding at.

[hellfish6 7]

Everyone needs to calm down a bit.

[theavonlady 2]

Everyone needs to calm down a bit.

Aw, shaddap!

No.............. Wait!

[GoOB 0]

Someone wrote:

Quote[/b] ] A question, would i be allowed to go to a isreali high school with a t-shirt saying "I support hamas"?

Probably would, aslong as you didn't go around blowing yourself up and or causing other forms of havoc. And the probability of you being stopped by Israeli military or police would probably increase a fair share.

If I get off the plane in Stockholm with a T-shirt proclaiming that Swedes should have their throats slashed and be disembowled, will I be welcomed, imprisoned or put back on the next plane out?

If I will not be welcomed, then Sweden is no different than Israel in this matter and I would hope that would be so.

Quote[/b] ]And Israel is atleast in my eyes not the best example of a well functioning and a reasonable democracy for many reasons wich is beyond the comprehension of outsiders.

You may have our problems sooner than you think. Good luck to you!

Well, that would be "Hets mot folkgrupp" that and supporting a political cause or group no matter how bloody a history it has, it is not the same thing. And you would probably only be asked to change your T-shirt or adviced to do so. I have seen police officers walking right past people with swastikas on their T-shirts.

Whadyaknow. So Sweden isn't perfect.

Would you find it intollerable, had Swedish law established that promoting Nazi symbols is forbidden because

of their explicte racial connotation or incitement to racism? Or would you at least understand and comprehend if another country had such laws?

Quote[/b] ]And I doubt that Sweden will go about reclaiming Norway as our own territory and opressing the Norwegians in an all out bulldozing manouver.

My! My! Changing the subject.

Quote[/b] ]As stated I cannot relate to the problems wich Israel obviously has with terrorism as Sweden has never in my lifetime been trying to occupy another country and throwing the original population out.

More Swedish tripe. Has Norway threatened to annihilate Sweden in the last few decades? Go ahead and spew your vicious venom on the MidEast thread!

Well, no. Since expressing your opinions is legal here in Sweden. Wether those opinions include not accepting immigrants or wanting to throw them out of the country. I don't agree with any of the parties using these symbols but I do give them the right to have their own opinions about political issues and other things. The same way I give anyone the right to express their beliefs and political opinions. And I would understand if a country enforces such laws, but I would never be a part of trying to get such a law enforced in Sweden. Unless some anti me party was formed and they started using my baby pictures in their propaganda.

And I don't want to change the subject, but I had to reply since you inclined that Sweden might be having problems with terrorism and such things in the near future. Wich I don't think we will have atleast not in the form wich Israel has, a percentage of the poulation is obviously discontent with having their freedom stolen.

But I think I will withdraw from this discussion and watch it from a safe distance as it looks to be turning ugly soon. Here's my share of land, please opress my citizens with care.

[theavonlady 2]

Here's my share of land, please opress my citizens with care.

Hmmm..... well, we could use a 2nd ski resort.

[SPQR 0]

I'm leaving your mess !

Seems that beast are still groaning in human hearts !

Very Instructive indeed  

You'll always be incomprehendable in my heart!

Sorry but I don't know what mess and beasts you're alluding at.

I welcome this charming laugh  

Being considered incomprehendable is a compliment when it comes from a Lady  

Even If you were telling I was speaking just senseless groups of words

Quote[/b] ]Seems that beast are still groaning in human hearts !

I consider there are enough deads, woundeds, painfull families in the world thanks to conflicts to add some fuel upon the blaze.

Couldn't find an adequat place for peace and understanding 

[denoir 0]

We are on different wave lengths here. What difference does it make what religious outfit someone wears unless it explicitly belittles other people?

This has nothing to do with religion taking over, just as secularism shouldn't take over. Anything public should be equally accessable to all people of all beliefs.

You can understand the concept of it being difficult for a teacher to communicate with a student that has everything, including eyes to be covered up, right?

It's very simple if you ban that kind of clothing people wearing such clothes will start shouting "bloody religious oppression". Secularism isn't an alternative to religion. It is the base of our society, like it or not. You have to accept the secular if you wish to live here. You have a right to a private religious belief, but not in any way that would come in the way of the secular. Call us secular fundamentalists if you wish, but that is our culture and this is our country and our rules.

Quote[/b] ]Why is it crappy? Because of your intollerence?

It's kind of self evident. If it's a problem then avoiding solving a problem is a crappy solution.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Well, I suppose that we could have stayed living in caves too, but at least I personally think that actually solving some problems is worth some effort.

Ah, I see. People wearing Burkas who go to the same public school and receive the same education as people wearing jeans and tanktops are more primitive.

Eh??? I'm saying not sacrificing anything for solving an importrant issue is bad. I don't know where you got the rest from.

Quote[/b] ]

Good Ol' European thinking.

It must be a terrible embarrassment to you that your entire political and social structure is built on the "Good Ol' European thinking.", whatever that is.

I don't get it. Why this tremendous inferiority complex towards Europe? The Jewish culture was until very very recently a part of Europe's culture. Many of the most prominent European thinkers, scientists and politicians were Jews. Why this sudden desperate attempt of "us and them". It's just silly. Before you moved off to the Mid East you were a part of Europe for over 1,000 years. By dissing our culture and history you are dissing your own...

[theavonlady 2]

Being considered incomprehendable is a compliment when it comes from a Lady  

Why do I hear ringing in my ears that sounds like "Every little breeze seems to whisper Louisse"?