French headscarf ban recommended

[SPQR 0]

We have in France, for a long time, a huge community coming from North Africa. That's a fact. For me, these 1st generation immigrant people are true french citizens, even if we badly treated them in the past (consequences of the Algeria Independance war for example).

The ability to speak to anyone without caring about his beliefs, sexe or age is something I won't allow anyone to destroy while forming true closed communities everywhere. Color doesn't matter, Races concept is a true stupidity.

In the army, I may have french youngs whose parents were immigrants under my command. But I don't care, they are all French citizens and potential brothers-in-arms. Only stupidity has the "privilege" to be hunted and wiped.

In Middle East, the religion is the foundation of your civilisation, AceCombat. Not in Occident. the christian religion is only a part of our civilisation. Maybe our sin, surely our strength !

When a woman (you'll guess its religious belief) passes all the tests successfully to become social assistant. Before succeded in her tests and given an public job, no scarf, no visible religious signs, shaking men's hand with no remorse or shame. The day after, She wore the scarf, and refused to deal with men and to shake hand!

                               WHO IS PULLING OTHER's LEG ?

                                           

Some girls are truly willing to wear the scarf to respect their own beliefs and understanding of the holy book.

Some girls have to wear it, just not for being treated by boys and men as a bitch !

The majority and french muslim citizens do not make much noise. All they want is to live their own intimate religious life free, with social, religious pressure, without threats.

Some of the noisy lads are starting to refuse to be examined and healed by male doctors, only by females

What would be your reaction, if I refuse to be healed by a muslim doctor because he's the kind to refuse to eat pork and is wearing a beard !   ...

Quote[/b] ]- Are you Muslim ?  

- Yes Why ?  

- I don't want to be healed by someone who don't eat pork ! GET OFF !!  

-  

...

How would you react ?  

P.S. I find the recommendation that Yom Kippur - the Jewish Day of Atonement - and Muslim Eid al-Kabir festival be celebrated in state schools as public holidays, as well as orthodox christmas, an excellent idea (should have been proposed before, dear Lionel Jospin, Jospinus Cretinus   )

[laulau 0]

acecombat, you should be more aware of the situation here in France. First the future law is not against muslims and the scarf, it's against any religious signs or political signs shown at school or in the administration. The point is that religious beliefs are private and must not interfere, in this case, with the knowledge teached at school or the job people have to do for the state. do you know that some students, because they have religious beliefs, don't accept to follow some courses because the content is in contradiction with their beliefs, they contest some parts of european history and refuse to study what happened to jews during WW2 or they affirm it's false? Such attitudes can't be allowed or accepted.

About women wearing scarf on their own free will, did you hear about "ni putes, ni soumises"? It's the name of a women walk through France during this year. They did it to protest against the pressure put on them by some men. They come from suburbs where a lot of muslims live. The only way for these women to live "normaly" is to wear the scarf. If they don't, they are insulted, called whores or bitches. Some of them, because they were wearing dresses, using make-up, living as a european woman, were raped. One year ago, a girl was burnt alive by guys because she was, as these bastards called her, a "whore"!!!! And the scarf should be their only chance to escape to such treatment?

i'm living in a nation where nobody cares about your religion or your political beliefs. You can do what you want, believe what you want but you have to respect one thing: men and women are equal.

The main problem now is that muslims or jews ask that public swimming-pools should be open some days for men and others for women, that muslim women should not be auscultate by male doctors,etc....

the scarf problem and the future law are just the exemple to say loud to everybody that the french Republic is LAIC, that each citizen, man or woman, has the same rights and duties than the others and that people who wants to live in France have to accept it.

[Supah 0]

I think however I have a solution. We must teach the European teenagers the joys of unprotected sex and by that get a population boom that can outcompete the immigration.

And then all contract a STD? I think that a large portion of muslims still needs to go through the social enlightenment that we went through since 1900. Take a look at the nations their families have their origins in. Not the principle of democracy and compliance to the human rights bill.

[SPQR 0]

The main problem now is that muslims or jews ask that public swimming-pools should be open some days for men and others for women

French Jews too ! Make me sad really, after all they endured in the past...

[theavonlady 2]

The main problem now is that muslims or jews ask that public swimming-pools should be open some days for men and others for women

French Jews too !    Make me sad really, after all they endured in the past...

Obviously, they're still enduring it in the present.

What a terrible thing for Moslems and Jews to ask if they can be accomodated.

Did the Moslems or Jews threaten to blow up the swimming pools? Did they even hold a public protest about it? Or did they just ask if there's a possibility to juggle in some time slots to enable them to abide by their beliefs?

Has it gotten so that religious people have to now be ashamed to even ask if something's possible?

Vile Europeans. So much for promoting of tollerance.

[denoir 0]

I think that a large portion of muslims still needs to go through the social enlightenment that we went through since 1900.

Ah, but I thinkt that's the core of the problem: it's not that simple. We that belong to the wester cultural sphere believe that our values are universal. That those that havn't adopted them are victims of bad circumstances or just havn't understood the whole point of it yet. I'm not sure it's that way however.

One of our corner-stones is freedom of religion. We implement it though a strict separation of religious institutions and the state. A secular rule and then you let people practice whatever religion they want on their private time. And this stems from the core idea that no religion is more "right" then another and that religion is the private business of the individual.

In this very thread you'll see that both Avon and Acecombat disagree with the principle of a secular state. They see it as something negative. I also just the other day read a Gallup poll that had been done in Iraq about what people wanted in the new constitution that was being written. 99% wanted free speech. 90% wanted political freedom. 46% wanted a separation of church/mosque and state. A clear majority wanted explicitly that the constitution should be closely tied to the islamic faith. They simple have a different view on it as we do. A majority of Europeans are fairly atheistic. You can't say that for the majority of Arabs or Jews. They have different priorities and different value systems.

The question is how we can accomplish integration of a system that accepts any religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with secular matters while you have another system that demands that the religion does interfere. There is a real cultural gap there and I don't think it is a matter of education or enlightenment.

[Supah 0]

Obviously, they're still enduring it in the present.

What a terrible thing for Moslems and Jews to ask if they can be accomodated.

Did the Moslems or Jews threaten to blow up the swimming pools? Did they even hold a public protest about it? Or did they just ask if there's a possibility to juggle in some time slots to enable them to abide by their beliefs?

Has it gotten so that religious people have to now be ashamed to even ask if something's possible?

Vile Europeans. So much for promoting of tollerance.

We here in europe here have a culture where religion is personal, private thing. We are among the view truelly democratic nations in the world. The seperation of church and state is a big part of that. People being muslim or jewish isnt problem, people expecting us to make exceptions for them we dont make for any other religion is the problem. This law also makes a muslim and jewish holiday into a national holiday. It also forbids christians from wearing large crosses. This is not a law aimed at one religious group, this is about the seperation of church and state. That means all "churches" no matter what its called in your religion.

[denoir 0]

Vile Europeans. So much for promoting of tollerance.

Yeah, that's the paradox. Either we accomodate special groups and therby violate our beliefs in equality or we don't allow it and we violate our beliefs of liberal acceptance.

On the other hand, I think that it should be added that some of the responsibility lies on the minorities as well. If you move to a country then you should be expected at least to some degree to adjust to the local culture. It doesn't just go for immigrants but for all minorities. A democratic system is after all based on majority rule..

[Supah 0]

Ah, but I thinkt that's the core of the problem: it's not that simple. We that belong to the wester cultural sphere believe that our values are universal. That those that havn't adopted them are victims of bad circumstances or just havn't understood the whole point of it yet.

They havent and in time they will. The root of their poverty and trouble is that they allow religious zealots to run their counries instead of people who actually know how to run an economy. Sooner or later they will catch on.

Quote[/b] ]One of our corner-stones is freedom of religion. We implement it though a strict separation of religious institutions and the state. A secular rule and then you let people practice whatever religion they want on their private time. And this stems from the core idea that no religion is more "right" then another and that religion is the private business of the individual.

In this very thread you'll see that both Avon and Acecombat disagree with the principle of a secular state. They see it as something negative. I also just the other day read a Gallup poll that had been done in Iraq about what people wanted in the new constitution that was being written. 99% wanted free speech. 90% wanted political freedom. 46% wanted a separation of church/mosque and state. A clear majority wanted explicitly that the constitution should be closely tied to the islamic faith. They simple have a different view on it as we do. A majority of Europeans are fairly atheistic. You can't say that for the majority of Arabs or Jews. They have different priorities and different value systems.

Basically thats all nice and cool but should we as western european nations change the way our societies have always functioned just because a minority has a religion that clashes with our common values. Or should people who are new in our society conform to that society in which they are guests? We are not hunting them down for their religion, we are not saying we wont allow you to practice your religion, we are saying we are not going to allow things that we learned were down right wrong many hundreds of years ago just because you want us too.

[theavonlady 2]

We here in europe here have a culture.

sic

Quote[/b] ]where religion is personal, private thing.

Can people walk on public streets in the religious or cultural garb of their choice? Yes. They shouldn't be allowed to. The streets belong to the democratic public and there should be total separation of church and state, just as in publicly owned schools.

Quote[/b] ]We are among the view truelly democratic nations in the world.

A democracy that denies people's elementary liberties. Enjoy it. More like true Demagoguey.

Quote[/b] ]people expecting us to make exceptions for them we dont make for any other religion is the problem.

Scheduling separate swimming hours might be an exception, though if they're divided up evenly between boys and girls, at least the possibility could be considered.

Is anyone DEMANDING this or is this being asked for in a reasonable fashion and manner.

Quote[/b] ]This law also makes a muslim and jewish holiday into a national holiday.

That's either an accomodation, which is very nice, or blatant hypocracy.

Quote[/b] ]It also forbids christians from wearing large crosses. This is not a law aimed at one religious group, this is about the seperation of church and state.

Interfering with what a person wears is a limitation on that individual's liberties. It makes no difference to me whether the person is Christian, Moslem or Jew.

I smell xenophobia and, if not, a sure cause for it in the not-to-distant future.

[denoir 0]

We here in europe here have a culture where religion is personal, private thing. We are among the view truelly democratic nations in the world. The seperation of church and state is a big part of that. People being muslim or jewish isnt problem, people expecting us to make exceptions for them we dont make for any other religion is the problem. This law also makes a muslim and jewish holiday into a national holiday. It also forbids christians from wearing large crosses. This is not a law aimed at one religious group, this is about the seperation of church and state. That means all "churches" no matter what its called in your religion.

Yes indeed. And it should be noted that this is about public, state funded institutions. Nobody prevents you from opening a private jewish or muslim school.

There is however the issue of equality which cannot be circumvented. What if we had an ethnic minority that had the ideals of South Africa in the '80s. Say that in their local cultural structure they separated people by their color of skin. Should we accept it as different culture and let them do what they wish or should we have imposed our own moral standards and stopped it?

What if Europe had a immigrated population of the imaginary country Nutzi-land, ruled by a Nazi government and that the people followed it. What if by Nutzi-land traditions, jews from Nutzi-land had to wear the star of David in public? Should we accept it as a different culture, or should we say that it's not acceptable?

I assume that you'll say that both the examples would be unacceptable in a civilized country. So why should we then accept a separation of the sexes from a system that by our moral code treats women as inferior and marks them by forcing them to wear a veil?

I'm not saying it's the same thing, and I myself am caught between my liberal "accept all" views and my own liberal moral value system - but it's a question worth exploring, don't you think?

[denoir 0]

Basically thats all nice and cool but should we as western european nations change the way our societies have always functioned just because a minority has a religion that clashes with our common values. Or should people who are new in our society conform to that society in which they are guests? We are not hunting them down for their religion, we are not saying we wont allow you to practice your religion, we are saying we are not going to allow things that we learned were down right wrong many hundreds of years ago just because you want us too.

Yeah, yeah, that's all nice and well, but there is catch! We might not be in majority for so much longer. As I said, with our crappy reproduction rates and their much faster reproduction rate, we're talking about no more than 100 years before we're in minority. Germany has an immigration rate of non-Europeans 6 immigrants/1 born German citizien (which inculdes of course many second-generation immigrants).

So do we stand by our democratic ideals and let them be destroyed by the people that don't share them, or do we destroy our democratic ideals ourselves by preventing the process that's occuring now?

Edit:

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]A democracy that denies people's elementary liberties. Enjoy it. More like true Demagoguey.

Does your country prevent nudity and/or sex in public places? Isn't that just as much the denial of a very very elemntary liberty?

[theavonlady 2]

Vile Europeans. So much for promoting of tollerance.

Yeah, that's the paradox. Either we accomodate special groups and therby violate our beliefs in equality or we don't allow it and we violate our beliefs of liberal acceptance.

If a person can wear a turban in his house, on the street (will that be banned?) or in his office (to be banned?), what do you care if he wears it to school? Unless, of course, the turban will blow the back rower's view of the blackboard.

There's no paradox here.

Quote[/b] ]On the other hand, I think that it should be added that some of the responsibility lies on the minorities as well. If you move to a country then you should be expected at least to some degree to adjust to the local culture. It doesn't just go for immigrants but for all minorities. A democratic system is after all based on majority rule..

Then you should have made citizenship laws that say "dress like us or get out after 30 days".

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Now that makes me furious. A few years ago we had tons of muslims attacking our Constitution and enforcing that all Jesus-crosses must be taken out of our school-rooms (yes, even the tiny ones on the wall) now it backfires on them. I take off my cross of jesus if the girl takes off her scarf. Fair enough!

Stop whining dear muslims, you started the battle!  

And since when is the scarf a religious obligation. It is nothing else than a very strange interpretation of the Koran.

[theavonlady 2]

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]A democracy that denies people's elementary liberties. Enjoy it. More like true Demagoguey.

Does your country prevent nudity and/or sex in public places? Isn't that just as much the denial of a very very elemntary liberty?

We've jumped from xenophobia to moral depravity.

Does Europe allow free speech to the extent of including the cursing and insulting of teachers in schools and officers of the law?

Once again, if you're saying that immigration laws should be passed that everyone has to wear clothing bought from H&O or Zara's, then go ahead and pass such laws.

BTW, how about pierced ears, eyes, nose, mouth, and navels? Will those be banned?

How about hair length? Short hair? Long hair?

How about spikey purple, green and orange hair?

And how big is a big cross? 10cm? 80cm?

How denigrating!

[Supah 0]

sic

.

Sic?

Quote[/b] ]Can people walk on public streets in the religious or cultural garb of their choice? Yes. They shouldn't be allowed to. The streets belong to the democratic public and there should be total separation of church and state, just as in publicly owned schools.

In a democratic state you are allowed to express yourself religiously, with a few exceptions, If you want to work for the government you should appear impartial to any religion. Our schools here are publically funded (well some of them), so once again, you are not going going to be allowed to wear religious signs/clothing artifacts. In the case of students wearing burqha's / head scarfes some of them really limit communication between student and teacher, so crucial to education. Besides in western european culture the wearing of headscarfes and hats and stuff in doors is viewed as very rude. When i visit the local mosque i have too, I am glad to do so as it is polite, take off my shoes. Hey no problem here. I respect their culture. It should also be that way the other way round.

Quote[/b] ]A democracy that denies people's elementary liberties. Enjoy it. More like true Demagoguey.

These are not elementary liberties, these are religious customs that people are trying to force upon people who dont adhere to their religion. They arent allowed to do that.

Quote[/b] ]Scheduling separate swimming hours might be an exception, though if they're divided up evenly between boys and girls, at least the possibility could be considered.

Is anyone DEMANDING this or is this being asked for in a reasonable fashion and manner

We have long since departed from sex based discrimination and we will not be bringing it back no matter how deeply your religion adheres to it, sorry for that. And yes it has gotten to demanding, we have the AEL for that.

Quote[/b] ]That's either an accomodation, which is very nice, or blatant hypocracy.

Yes lets try and find exterior motive behind every attempt to make a positive move towards each other, that will help the process

Quote[/b] ]Interfering with what a person wears is a limitation on that individual's liberties. It makes no difference to me whether the person is Christian, Moslem or Jew.

I smell xenophobia and, if not, a sure cause for it in the not-to-distant future.

A question, would i be allowed to go to a isreali high school with a t-shirt saying "I support hamas"? Would i be allowed in to a High school in america's bible belt if i was wearing a Marilyn Manson T shirt? Am i allowed in to a casino when i dont wear a necktie? Would you like to be helped at town hall by someone wearing a burkha? Some things are culturaly unacceptable. You cant wear clothes with swastika's on it in most european countries, rightly so. We have long said that certain things cant be allowed.

Quote[/b] ]What if Europe had a population of the imaginary country Nutzi-land, ruled by a Nazi government and that the people followed it. What if by Nutzi-land traditions, jews from Nutzi-land had to wear the star of David in public? Should we accept it as a different culture, or should we say that it's not acceptable?

That would be in clear violation of the international human rights laws and would pbb lead to intervention by the UN or another state or international entity

Quote[/b] ]I assume that you'll say that both the examples would be unacceptable in a civilized country. So why should we then accept a separation of the sexes from a system that by our moral code treats women as inferior and marks them by forcing them to wear a veil?

We dont and thats part of what this whole row is about. Our liberal secular culture is colliding with those of other groups who dont have those values. In my view those groups are guests in our culture and should adopt to our society. We arent asking for all that much. If i move to a country i am expected to conform to their values too. why is it so wrong when we ask the same of others in our own culture?

[denoir 0]

Vile Europeans. So much for promoting of tollerance.

Yeah, that's the paradox. Either we accomodate special groups and therby violate our beliefs in equality or we don't allow it and we violate our beliefs of liberal acceptance.

If a person can wear a turban in his house, on the street (will that be banned?) or in his office (to be banned?), what do you care if he wears it to school? Unless, of course, the turban will blow the back rower's view of the blackboard.

There's no paradox here.

There are two problems. One is principal and the other one practical.

The first one is that we cannot with our values accept a system that by our standards treats women unfairly. Taliban-style oppression of women - and you can call it free practice of religion if you wish - is not compatible with our value systems nor our laws.

The second one is the problem of segregation. Half of the kids wear blue caps and the rest wear red caps and they don't like each other very much. Not good for society. Results: European kids beat up Arabs. Arabs beat up Jews. Jews.. umm..well... I'm sure they beat up somebody else. Why do you think there has been a surge of violence against Jewish institutions in Europe the last years (comitted by muslim youth). It's because of failed integration. It becomes us versus them and everybody becomes a hardliner. Typically bad. And it gets big headlines in the news and it becomes worse. Removing religious insignia is much less restrictive than having for instance school uniforms - which is common for instance in US private schools. It serves however the same purpose - not to divide the kids.

Quote[/b] ]Then you should have made citizenship laws that say "dress like us or get out after 30 days".

We do. It's called the law and it guarantees the equallity of all citizens, regardless of religion or sex.

[Tamme 0]

I don't think equality means that everyone is the same. It's about everyone being what they want to be and still not being treated differently.

I can't understand why the kids in public schools can't live with each other. I'm a christian, but I don't mind if someone is a muslim or a jew. Instead of making everyone look the same, kids should be taught tolerance towards different people.

[theavonlady 2]

Now that makes me furious. A few years ago we had tons of muslims attacking our Constitution and enforcing that all Jesus-crosses must be taken out of our school-rooms (yes, even the tiny ones on the wall) now it backfires on them. I take off my cross of jesus if the girl takes off her scarf. Fair enough!

Stop whining dear muslims, you started the battle!  

You don't see the difference between a public institution using its property to promote a particular religion versus a religious student abiding to himself by his laws when attending a public school?

A cross on the wall in the public school implies that this is what the public and government endorses or promotes. A cross around someone's neck is a private statement to does not declare anything in the name of anyone else except for the wearer.

Next up: European Thought Police.

Quote[/b] ]And since when is the scarf a religious obligation. It is nothing else than a very strage interpretation of the Koran.

Ah! Ah! Ah! Separation of church and state. This shouldn't be your business. You may be right. You may be wrong. But you don't determine other people's personal religious beliefs and obligations.

Quote[/b] ]If scientology maniacs want to come to school naked because that is what they intepreted from the bible, do we let them???

I would not be surprised if society were to reach such low levels of depravity.

[Tamme 0]

Now that makes me furious. A few years ago we had tons of muslims attacking our Constitution and enforcing that all Jesus-crosses must be taken out of our school-rooms (yes, even the tiny ones on the wall) now it backfires on them. I take off my cross of jesus if the girl takes off her scarf. Fair enough!

Stop whining dear muslims, you started the battle!  

You don't see the difference between a public institution using its property to promote a particular religion versus a religious student abiding to himself by his laws when attending a public school?

A cross on the wall in the public school implies that this is what the public and government endorses or promotes. A cross around someone's neck is a private statement to does not declare anything in the name of anyone else except for the wearer.

Excactly. I've always thought that instead of enforcing christianity on children in public schools, they should be told about different religions so they can choose for themselves. It's the church's job to do the preaching. Seperation of church and state, right?

[denoir 0]

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]A democracy that denies people's elementary liberties. Enjoy it. More like true Demagoguey.

Does your country prevent nudity and/or sex in public places? Isn't that just as much the denial of a very very elemntary liberty?

We've jumped from xenophobia to moral depravity.

Does Europe allow free speech to the extent of including the cursing and insulting of teachers in schools and officers of the law?

Exactly my point. You're not allowed to do things that offend other people. And religious insignia does as you are imposing your set of values on to others. And that should not be allowed in institutions that represent the state - especially schools.

It's the same thing as wearing T-shirt with a swastika. While you may do so on the street as part of the freedom of expression, you may not do it in institutions that are funded by and represent the state. It's not acceptable as it does not conform to our system of values.

The problem is that obviously you can't comperhend how religious symbols can be offensive. I can't help you there but I assure you that they can indeed be. I'd much rather have naked people running around than people with giant crosses..

[Tamme 0]

Avon:

Quote[/b] ]A democracy that denies people's elementary liberties. Enjoy it. More like true Demagoguey.

Does your country prevent nudity and/or sex in public places? Isn't that just as much the denial of a very very elemntary liberty?

We've jumped from xenophobia to moral depravity.

Does Europe allow free speech to the extent of including the cursing and insulting of teachers in schools and officers of the law?

Exactly my point. You're not allowed to do things that offend other people. And religious insignia does as you are imposing your set of values on to others. And that should not be allowed in institutions that represent the state - especially schools.

It's the same thing as wearing T-shirt with a swastika. While you may do so on the street as part of the freedom of expression, you may not do it in institutions that are funded by and represent the state. It's not acceptable as it does not conform to our system of values.

The students don't represent the state! They are private individuals. Therefore they should be allowed to express their religion and ideas freely.

[denoir 0]

The students don't represent the state! They are private individuals. Therefore they should be allowed to express their religion and ideas freely.

So you do think that students should be allowed to wear T-shirts with swastikas on them?

[Tamme 0]

The students don't represent the state! They are private individuals. Therefore they should be allowed to express their religion and ideas freely.

So you do think that students should be allowed to wear T-shirts with swastikas on them?

AFAIK students are allowed to wear t-shirts with a hammer and sicle on them. Communism doesn't fit in to our culture either, does it?

In our school a tough guy with a t-shirt with a swastika printed on it would be laughed at. Being scared of nazis is just another victory for them.

[bn880 5]

I'm with Denoir on this one

Ditto... there are instances when you have to either adapt or leave/quit.

It is really nothing special, if I see a job that interferes with my way of life/beliefs, I won't take it. So, so does every one else IMO when they have a problem.

You don't for example expect a female officer to wear some cloth on her head to cover her entire face now do ya?? I mean, if you do, get a grip, it's totally un realistic.